Go fast bike: San Marcos?

[RJM]

I have been trying to get the funds together for a Riv go fast bike. Right now I have been using my Sam Hillborne for it, but I would really like to change that into an albatrossed townie commuter bike and get a dedicated lighter bike using little to no baggage so I can ride with the local club and to do charity centuries on. The Roadeo seems like the perfect bike for it, really. BUT..... I was pondering though, instead of dropping two grand on a Roadeo frame, what about building a Soma San Marcos. If I went the San Marcos route, I would save 1100 bucks on the frame, which is not chump change, and be able to put some of the extra money towards the parts to switch the Hillborne over to the townie and get a good build on the Soma. Both the Sam and the Soma would be 650b in my size (51cm), but the Roadeo would be 700 wheels. I would guess that the Roadeo would be a lighter bike, all in all.

 

 My question are these: would the San Marcos be a good dedicated "go fast" bike, is it any faster feeling than the Sam in that regard? Any owners want to share their opinions of the bike? Do you think I should just bite the bullet and save for the Roadeo (which sounds like is perfect for what I want) and stop thinking of saving money?  Anyway, thanks for your help.

 

Ryan

[Joe Bernard]

I'm pretty sure the SOMA would be a good go-fast, but don't kid yourself: That Roadeo is the bee's knees, and you want it. Get an old Bridgestone RB-2 off Craigslist as a stop-gap while you save your pennies, then flip it when Roadeo time comes. Tis my thoughts, anyway.

 

Joe Bernard

Vallejo, CA.

[Mike]

I'd be curious if you could set the San Marcos up with Grand Bois
Hetres. Seems like it would make a nice "go fast" bike and you'd still
have the benefit of clearance for bigger tires, fenders and even the
ability to attach a rear rack. I say go for it.

[Big Paulie]

I faced the same dilemma recently, and chose the San Marcos.

Haven't had a moment's regret. Best handling bike I've ever ridden.
And that includes a Ram and a AHH.

[dougP]

Ryan:

If you really lust after a Roadeo, the San Marcos may feel like a compromise.  Only you can sort that one out.  Since Grant designed them both, I expect the two would perform similarly if equipped with the same wheels, components, etc. 

The Roadeo has been out a couple of years now.  If you're OK with used, post a WTB and see if an early adopter is interested in parting with one.  There have been FS ads from people who have multiple Rivs & want to thin things down. 

dougP

On Saturday, December 1, 2012 4:20:43 PM UTC-8, RJM wrote:

[Dan McNamara]

I think the San Marcos could be a good choice. 

If you are going to fender then the Grand Bois Cypres at 32 (depending on rim) are a nice tire. I doubt you could get a Hetre in there. But a Soma B-Lines should fit no prob. And there are other wide-ish tire options out there. 

The San Marcos does have the 6-degree upslope TT so it will be a little longer than the Rodeo. I believe 55 for the San Marcos and 53.5 for the Rodeo. 

But I did think all Rodeos were 700c. At least that is what is in the Riv geometry google doc. 

If you are going to always be lusting for the Rodeo then wait until you can afford that. If you will be happy with the San Marcos then go for it and enjoy it. 

My .02 or .05. 

A fun decision. 

Dan

Marin

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[RJM]

The WTB ad is a good idea, Doug. I might have to try that.

 

I really like the blue color of the San Marcos, pretty nice shade of blue.

[Peter Pesce]

I too tried a Sam as a go fast and decided to look elsewhere. I currently have my QB set up for minimalist rides.
The Rodeo is clearly the number one choice, but barring that the SM seems nice if you are not in the 2TT size range. Double top tubes and going fast are just not synonymous in my mind. Otherwise, Soma makes many steel frames that will go fast. I have a Double Cross that I love.

Pete in CT

[Michael]

Don't know how much visuals play into it for you, but the Marcos doesn't have that classic fork curve like the Rivendells do. Have you seen it? Very modern looking.

 

If you are only talking saving up another grand for the Roadeo, I would just wait and get what I really wanted.

 

Let us know either way, and please post pics.

 

On the :faster" bike:

I don't know that I would be any faster on any of the different Rivbikes. I am not a racer. BTW, my Bleriot beat my best commute time over my race bike. And the Bleriot is 3 lbs. heavier than the race bike.

I mean, I know the Roadeo is a streamlined bike for faster riding, but I wonder how much less it really weighs than a Marcos, or Sam, or AHH. And would the diff really matter once I sat on it?

Or is there a power transfer thing going on for the Roadeo that isn't for the other models?

[Jeremy Till]

It should be pointed out that a whole lot more goes into making a bike a "go fast" than just the frame and fork.  Roadeo's are fast because they are often built with fairly lightweight parts, especially wheels.  If you end up going for for the San Marcos, especially in a smaller size like your, I should think you would be able to make a pretty zippy little bike if you choose the right parts.  Get some lightweight wheels built (how light are those new Pacenti 650b rims?), use something like Pari Motos or the GB Cypres for tires, some of the lighter weight Nitto bars, a Thomson seatpost, etc....  Maybe forgo the brooks (gasp!) or spring for one of the Ti-railed ones.  

On Saturday, December 1, 2012 4:20:43 PM UTC-8, RJM wrote:

[Brewster Fong]

On Sunday, December 2, 2012 9:01:49 AM UTC-8, Jeremy Till wrote:

It should be pointed out that a whole lot more goes into making a bike a "go fast" than just the frame and fork.  

Agree. How much lighter is a Roadeo than a SM? That difference basically disappears under the rider. Grant states this all the time in his comparison of his frames to carbon. His framesets weigh in the 7+lb range; a modern Chinese carbon frameset can be as low as 3lb (yup, for frame AND fork!). But in the overall weight of the bike, its not that much more, or at that's what he wants you to believe ;)

 

Roadeo's are fast because they are often built with fairly lightweight parts, especially wheels.  If you end up going for for the San Marcos, especially in a smaller size like your, I should think you would be able to make a pretty zippy little bike if you choose the right parts.  Get some lightweight wheels built (how light are those new Pacenti 650b rims?), use something like Pari Motos or the GB Cypres for tires, some of the lighter weight Nitto bars, a Thomson seatpost, etc....  Maybe forgo the brooks (gasp!) or spring for one of the Ti-railed ones.  

On the other hand, if this is your "go-fast" are you using a brake/shifter lever combo (brifter)?  If so, check out Sram. Several guys in our group have carbon bike with  the latest Sram Red and their bikes weigh in *under 15lb!*  That's light. If you don't want to spend that much for the Red group, get the Force, its slightly heavier at quite a bit less cost.

I also agree with wheels. If you're a lightweight guy, you can get away with lower spoke count wheels. I'm not familiar with 650b stuff, but I heard good things about Velocity rims (lightweight, durable and reasonably price) and the GB tires are suppose to be very good, although fragile.

A SM with Sram Force and light wheels should make a very lively bike! Good Luck! 

[cyclotourist]

Figure out which wheel size you want to commit to, and there's your answer.

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[RJM]

Thanks for all the replies,

 

One the go fast bike, I was planning on using brifters, probably something from Sram as I prefer their hood shape. I am not exactly light, about 200 and still a short dude so I do have some weight to get off me. Light weight really isn't a huge consideration on the new bike, but having quick tires/wheels/the abilty to quickly shift would be important to the riding I have planned for it. I am also planning on sticking look clipless on whatever frame I get (I know, don't shoot me). I do want the bike to be durable too, my last trek wasn't exactly durable, the rear hub had issues fairly quickly and the shifters junked up and lasted about a year. I'm not too happy with what you get at the local bike shop, those bikes aren't really comfortable and for the money I think the Riv/Soma are better deals (and I don't want a carbon fork). The local bike shop owner put me on a Trek Domane for a test ride. It was a decent ride, but my Sam Hillborne is a better bike in my mind. (cheaper too.)

 

Is the San Marcos rear 130 or 135 spaced?

[Tony Lockhart]

Ryan,
I actually have both bikes and have some thoughts to share with you regarding both. Perhaps some of my experiences can help with your decision on which frame to purchase.

I bought a Sam Hillborne a couple of years back and went through a number of drivetrain and accessory changes. It's been my go fast, commuting, townie, and cyclocross bike so I feel qualified in comparing both bikes. My Sam has had a number of "personalities" in regards to set up and ride characteristics. I currently have it set up as a townie with fenders, 32mm tires, drop bars, and a basket (contemplating a dirt drop stem and flat bars with cork grips). I also have a San Marcos set up as a commuter, club ride bike, and cyclocross bike. My San Marcos has a mix of Shimano parts, 32mm tires, a Velo Orange rack, and drop bars. To answer your original question, the San Marcos is an excellent choice for a go fast bike.

San Marcos Criticism #1

I'm not sure if this is true for different sizes, but you'll need standard reach brake calipers up front and long reach calipers in the rear if you purchase a 54cm San Marcos. I am not sure if this is true of the other sizes or with any other 54cm San Marcos frames. I am running Tektro R559 brakes on this bike--the fit of the rear calipers is spot on however long reach calipers up front don't seem to fit properly. Have a look at the attached photo and you'll see that the fork was not designed for long reach brakes. Conjecture says that this bike should use standard reach brakes and that the rear brake bridge on my bike was welded too far upwards, necessitating longer reach brakes.

San Marcos Criticism #2

The dropouts on this bike suck compared to the ones on my Sam. As you can see from the photos, the front dropouts originally come with lawyer tabs--I quickly filed those off after acquiring the bike. The rear dropout eyelets are welded too closely to the frame and cause interference when trying to mount a rack or fenders. The welds get in the way and prevent you from mounting accessories in a flush manner. The second photo shows a slight gap between the rack tab and the eyelets because the welds get in the way. Moreover, the decorative part of the Soma dropouts interfere with the quick-release hub skewer--this is not the case with my Sam.

With all of that said, the San Marcos is an excellent bike and I am very pleased with it. I have no trouble maintaining an average speed of 23mph while on club rides. It is quite comfortable however feels very sporty and agile when compared to the Sam Hillborne. Since you already have a Sam, try to imagine your bike with easier maneuverability, a lighter feel when climbing, and less squirrelliness. If you go with mainly Nitto parts, more spokes than less, and wide tires, you'll have no worries about durability if you end up with a San Marcos.

I haven't had the chance to test ride a Roadeo, but I imagine that model to be much more suitable for fast riding than the San Marcos. The Roadeo is a gorgeous frame, and would probably be the ONE frame I would have if I could only own one bike. But since I'm fortunate enough to have two, I feel the San Marcos can easily be differentiated from the Sam Hillboarne while retaining those absolute must characteristics (comfort, durability, versatility). In your shoes, I would try to get past the eccentricities of the San Marco because it's so much cheaper than the Roadeo...then I'd use the left over money to purchase an awesome wheel set and an SRAM Apex group.

[PATRICK MOORE]

RJM: don't appologize for Looks. They are, IMO, the best road pedals
out there. I have older-model Look Keo Pluses or Maxes or whatever the
intermediate level is, and I like them very much (a) for the large,
comfortable platform and (b) for the secure "lock in" feeling that in
no way implies a difficult release. I earlier had Dura Aces and like
the Keos better -- even tho' they are plastic.

[William]

If you want a really really nice and super affordable road frameset, consider the road frame from Black Mountain Cycles in Point Reyes Station.  It's not as fancy as the Roadeo, but takes wider road tires like a Roadeo and/or takes fenders with medium sized road tires.  It's an absolute steal at under $700.  Mike Varley is a very well respected bike designer. 

 

I ride one of these.  I bought it when I decided that a Roadeo was further out than I wanted to wait for. 

 

On Saturday, December 1, 2012 4:20:43 PM UTC-8, RJM wrote:

I have been trying to get the funds together for a Riv go fast bike. Right now I have been using my Sam Hillborne for it, but I would really like to change that into an albatrossed townie commuter bike and get a dedicated lighter bike using little to no baggage so I can ride with the local club and to do charity centuries on. The Roadeo seems like the perfect bike for it, really. BUT..... I was pondering though, instead of dropping two grand on a Roadeo frame, what about building a Soma San Marcos. If I went the San Marcos route, I would save 1100 bucks on the frame, which is not chump change, and be able to put some of the extra money towards the parts to switch the Hillborne over to the townie and get a good build on the Soma. Both the Sam and the Soma would be 650b in my size (51cm), but the Roadeo would be 700 wheels. I would guess that the Roadeo would be a lighter bike, all in all.

 

 My question are these: would the San Marcos be a good dedicated "go fast" bike, is it any faster feeling than the Sam in that regard? Any owners want to share their opinions of the bike? Do you think I should just bite the bullet and save fonicr the Roadeo (which sounds like is perfect for what I want) and stop thinking of saving money?  Anyway, thanks for your help.

 

Ryan

[Joe Bernard]

130.

On Sunday, December 2, 2012 10:42:45 AM UTC-8, RJM wrote:

[Peter Pesce]

Agreed. But for me at least, "go fast" is purely a feel, as nothing with me aboard will be going "fast" by any objective measure! It's more about a lively and responsive quality that I don't think is purely related to weight or anything in particular. My Sam just never felt anything but stout, even with brifters and light-ish wheels and tires. In contrast, my QB always felt noodly with luggage on it. I know from the specs that there's is relatively little difference in the frames, and many people have successfully loaded their Q's with all sorts of luggage. It was a just a feel thing for me. (Though i do think the forks are quite different, which may contribute to my perceptions)

It does seem to be rare to find a road-oriented, caliper brake, frame with clearance for wider (than 28) tires and fenders. That's what is pretty unique about the Roadeo.

-Pete in CT

[RJM]

Thanks a bunch for the write up and pictures Tony, great info.

[Aaron Thomas]

Tony,

Quick head's up on your brake reach issue. Looks like you're using the wrong brake up front — and that's why the brake pads are high in the slots. Only the 650B sizes of the San Marcos (i.e. 47, 51) use the long reach Tektro 559 (55-73mm). The 700c sizes use standard reach brakes (47-57 mm). That'd be the Tektro R539. Did you try putting a standard reach brake on the front?

Aaron

[Tony Lockhart]

Thanks Aaron! I agree, the front brake caliper in the photo is out of tolerance--this is my primary gripe about the San Marcos. My 54cm SM uses a standard (47-57) reach caliper up front and a long reach (55-73) caliper at the back. I'm not sure if this is a design flaw or an operator error. For what it's worth, these little issues are not heinous enough to deter me from liking the bike because it has excellent handling characteristics and is fun to ride.

Incidentally, I am currently running the proper reach caliper up front because I had this nagging feeling that the long reach caliper would fail.

[rcnute]

Those are both such great looking setups.  I'm saving that photo.

Ryan

[Tony Lockhart]

The build quality looks identical in both frames, however the paint job on the San Marcos is not as good as on the Hillborne. All of the lugs appear to be identical with the exception of the lower headtube lug on the SM---more windows and more decorative.




On Wednesday, December 5, 2012 9:21:06 AM UTC-8, redsydude wrote:

I think those bikes are built by the same manufacturer in Taiwan so is the quality control on the Sam Hillborne much better than on the SOMA? 

On Tuesday, December 4, 2012 7:06:58 PM UTC-8, Tony Lockhart wrote:

[Paul LZY]

I ride a 56 cm Sam. It used to feel too heavy to be my go-fast, but then I sold my go-fast (run of the mill trek road bike), so my Sam has to do it all. I've got it with a schmidt dynohub, 7spd, all the usual Riv bits, including Marathon Extremes. I do ride with clipless ATACs though. I ride with people on carbon and 23mms, and they beat me up a climb but generally if the ride is long, I'll do ok, and if the road is rough I will be well ahead.  

I've gradually got faster on the Sam...and I am well pleased I decided to use it as the go-fast so I would recommend making sure your fit is good and just riding harder. 

Oh, it helped a lot for me to jack the noodles up super high and ride in the drops all the time.