Q-Factor and 52 Year Old Knees

[Liesl]

Micheal said, "I have a Campy Centaur square taper with the 110 BB
with a 39t ring on the
outside that works for me. I have a Phil rear hub with the Dos Eno
16/19 on
one side, and a 18t cog fixed on the other side. My 52 year old knees
are
sensitive sensitive to Q, and this works just fine."

Micheal and others, could you talk about this subject? While I was
doing some work on my riv's, I was commuting on my Friday and
developed really stiff knees. I have one knee that's a bit gravelly
under the kneecap, and it's particularly susceptible to stiffness and
swelling on vigorous hikes. Normally, though, bicycling has not given
it trouble. Anyway, could the q-factor of the Friday have set this
off? (It's set up as a 1x8.) May I add that I am not yet geeky
enough to say right off the bat what all my Q-factors are--but here's
my learning opportunity, eh? Here's my first attempt at getting
knowledgeable: My main rides are regular old Saluki/Protobleriot
bottom brackets both with Sugino 165 cranks. The Saluki has a triple
up front and a riv-installed regular 8-speed cassette. The Proto has
a single chain-ring up front and an ENO hub with a DOS. Can't say
without looking it up at home what bottom bracket is on either.
Neither gives me knee problems as long as I don't ride in too high a
gear. Don't think I was riding in a tall gear on the Friday...

Okay, any advice on aging knees would be greatly appreciated.

yours,
Liesl

[PATRICK MOORE]

You can measure Q or tread by aligning each crankarm sequentially with
the down tube and measuring carefully from outside of the arm to the
edge of the down tube. Add the measurements and then add the width of
the down tube to get total Q. (Or, just stick a good stiff ruler
between the spokes of the rear wheel with the "0" mark at the edge of
top of one crankarm, then, carefully holding the ruler still, rotate
the cranks backward until the other arm comes to rest on top of the
ruler. Then mark the spot where the outside of that arm falls -- that
will be the Q measurement.

All that said, if your two bikes haven't caused knee problems in the
past, I would assume that the Q of those bikes is not the cause of
your recent stiffness; were you pushing against a wind, or up hills,
or carrying heavy loads?

My 56 year old knees are (thank God) pretty forgiving and accept Qs as
low as 130 (they don't like the even lower Qs of, say, Raleigh
Sportses) and as high as 160 (but no more), but I have to beware of
pushing too hard, too far, seated in too high a gear -- something I'm
prone to do as I ride fixed a great deal. (I stand when I have to and
get used to standing and pedaling slowly for longer distances.)

Patrick "not gonna ride today in that dam' wind" Moore

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Patrick Moore
Albuquerque, NM
For professional resumes, contact
Patrick Moore, ACRW
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[Liesl]

Thanks so much for the Q-factor measuring protocol, Patrick.

You commented: "All that said, if your two bikes haven't caused knee

problems in the past, I would assume that the Q of those bikes is not

the cause of your recent stiffness..." My concern is not about the 2
Riv's but rather the Bike Friday. 'Twas on the BF for a week; that's
when my knee started grumbling. The first day of the week, though, I
was running late and rode faster/harder than I normally do.

Liesl of the Grumpy Knee

[Michael Rivers]

I have a medial meniscus tear that flares up if I ski too much, or cycle with cranks that are too wide.  I'm a doc, and my orthopedic surgeon buddy was no help, but for me, and narrow tread or low Q (different terms for the same thing) helps eliminate the grating and pain in my right knee.  I have also gone to pedaling flat (QB and Ram) with Grip Kings, and commuter (rSogn) with Sneaker pedals.  That helps me move my feet around and takes pressure off the knee.  This was a solution found by trial and error, and I have no medical reason to offer.  If I'm riding it's a good thing, and Aleve is my friend is my mantra...

Michael

[Michael Hechmer]

I have found that if my seat post gets set a little low, 1-2 cm, it causes knee pain.  You may want to check the saddle ht on Friday, vs Riv.

[Ken Freeman]

Dr. Rivers, 

I also get knee pain if I ride with the saddle just a little too low.  What I do is raise it by small increments until its good for a few miles - well, maybe more than a few!  But I also move it down if I'm starting to get too much pelvic motion.  The net result is that it only takes a few millimeters of saddle rise for me to stop my knee pain.  Try it.

On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 7:27 PM, Michael Hechmer <mhec...@gmail.com> wrote:

I have found that if my seat post gets set a little low, 1-2 cm, it causes knee pain.  You may want to check the saddle ht on Friday, vs Riv.

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Ken Freeman
Ann Arbor, MI USA

[LF]

Liesl.

I've had knee problems on and off, for 25-years. They started during over-ambitious, under-conditioned cycling. Last year, I read *Born to Run,* and recommend it. McDougall, IIRC, explains that the foot, knee, and back are all part of one system, and that shoes muck up natures design -- giving rise to all sorts of aches and pains. Well, I developed the full compliment of aches and pains.

 I tried the 5-fingers "barefoot shoes," and found them kind of weird. About a month ago, I started wearing Merrell's barefoot True Glove shoes exclusively. No more sneakers, SPDs, Keens; no more padded, reinforced or healed footware. I like them. I am more surefooted, walk quieter, and pain free. I cycle in them. I wear them to work. I stand for hours comfortably. I go for hikes. I'm a zealous convert.

For me, daily stretches, judicious chiropractic, and "barefoot" running shoes free me from chronic muscular-skeletal pain of the back and lower extremities. YMMV.

Any other iBobs try the barefoot thing? That, a primal diet, and Bob is your Uncle.

Best,
Larry

[PATRICK MOORE]

My brother, a runner, used the "barefoot" shoes and managed to hurt
his feet with them -- just a warning that they are not "infallible."

Me, I stopped hurting when I stopped running and my 56 year old
muscular-skeletal system is, thank God, in pretty good shape --
cycling keeps it free from aches, oddly enough.

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[Bill Gibson]

I'm at 56, and after arthroscopic surgery on the same sort of tears in both knees, I've had years of relief and activity, but arthritis has arrived. Cycling is still wonderful and keeps the joints all polished up and less wonky, but running and skiing are probably a bad idea. 

Grip Kings replaced my "clipless" systems, too: I think that varying position and movement prevents problems from repetitive motion, and I use free-weight resistance exercises to maintain stability. I mostly ride my Quickbeam, currently with an SRAM iMotion-9 hub. But, I might go back to the stock wheel.

I tried to take a dancing class with my wife recently, and discovered I've developed some very protective habits to protect the knees; some movements I just can't do!

I don't take NSAIDS if at all possible, and rarely have the time to enjoy ice after hard riding, which is a good idea. I do think the glucosamine supplements I'm taking help now, though they didn't help much to avoid the surgeries.

Both paternal grandmother and father had knees that disintegrated, and my father has enjoyed an artificial knee and hip for several years. Maybe I'll live long enough to enjoy some scientific advances and regrow some joint lining...

On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 4:15 PM, Michael Rivers <mriv...@gmail.com> wrote:

I have a medial meniscus tear that flares up if I ski too much, or cycle with cranks that are too wide.  I'm a doc, and my orthopedic surgeon buddy was no help, but for me, and narrow tread or low Q (different terms for the same thing) helps eliminate the grating and pain in my right knee.  I have also gone to pedaling flat (QB and Ram) with Grip Kings, and commuter (rSogn) with Sneaker pedals.  That helps me move my feet around and takes pressure off the knee.  This was a solution found by trial and error, and I have no medical reason to offer.  If I'm riding it's a good thing, and Aleve is my friend is my mantra...

Michael

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Bill Gibson
Tempe, Arizona, USA

[Andrew Johnson]

I wish I could find a great non-cleated cycling shoe - something with a very thin but stiff sole, for my MKS touring pedals, and have wondered about the new Merrills. This review shows just how flexible they are, do those really work well for cycling?

http://www.myfivefingers.com/merrell-true-glove-review/

I'll visit the local show shop, see if they have some to try on.

- Andrew, Berkeley

[Lyle Bogart]

Andrew,

I use indoor soccer shoes, typically adidas (I don't care for the samba model as the sole feels to "clunky") but I also like diadora, and I use MKS touring pedals. The soles feel "just stiff enough" without being so stiff that completely lose feel of the pedal. 

Larry, McDougall is correct that the foot, knee, *hip* and back are all part of on system. In my practice (physical therapy) I find most knee problems derive from weak and tight hip external rotators and abductors. Although the foot can have an effect on the mechanics of the knee, that's not so much the case in cycling because the heel (calcaneus) is not primarily load bearing (as it is in walking or running). Instead, the force of the pedal stroke is distributed through the flexible fore- and mid-foot. Good to hear the Merrell's are working for you, though, as I've been considering a pair for running. I've always preferred a flat, light, shoe.

Cheers!

lyle

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156 bradford rd

wiscasset, me 04578

207.882.6494

206.794.6937

[PATRICK MOORE]

I'll second the indoor soccer shoe idea -- mine were Nikes, IIRC with
small cleats that weren't too annoying and worked well before I went
back to clipless. Others have had cobblers add thin vibram to old,
Detto-type cycling shoes: I have a pair of Vittoria (I think) winter
shoes with a thin rubber sole that I keep planning to convert back to
cleats.

--

[Sean Whelan]

I have a set of the Chrome sneakers. They are thin-soled and a bit like the old Chuck Taylors from Converse, but have a reinforced sole for cycling. Not for everyone, but I dig them for both riding and just wearing as sneakers. Cheers, Sean --- On Wed, 10/19/11, Andrew Johnson <asht...@gmail.com> wrote:

[TSW]

I've always hated running- much prefer biking and swimming. I have
lower back issues and patella femoral syndrome. But once I started
using the VFFs all those issues go away. If you're a runner you need
to relearn how to run lest you injure yourself. For me it's been
great- up to 2 miles now- and I only started up a couple weeks ago.
You have to keep it up- your calves will feel like hamburger for days
after your first time. Haven't tried the Merrils but that's on my
list.

Haven't tried these on my bike- I'd need more of a platform pedal.

And yes I've also learned from my great PT that knee problems are best
addressed by working on the hips.

TSW
Berkeley

[charlie]

I ride with the same shoes I walk around in......you just need to buy
a pedal with more surface area like a good BMX pin pedal or the Grip
Kings or something that doesn't dig into the sole of your shoe so
much. I use New Balance walking/hiking/sport shoes....not sure what
they are but they are brown and green and fit me. I also use the Teva
sandals but only in the summer these days.

[Liesl]

Over the past 5+ years, I've done the majority of my riding--and
walking--in soft-soled Steger Mukluks.

http://www.mukluks.com/

I wear Apache Moccasins (at the bottom of the home page) spring,
summer, and fall and then switch to Traditional Mukluks in the late
fall, winter, and early spring. These are wonderful, and my feet have
been happy. In fact, my feet groan when I go to hard-soled shoes.
The winter Traditional Mukluks are simply fantastic--really warm and
flexible--you can really feel what's going on and move your ankle
freely. Plus made right here in Minnesnowta.

I've tried the Barefoot 5-fingers, but don't like them nearly as much
as the moc's (but they are great for river/creek/rocky bottom lake
walking). My foot is little (I'm 5'2") and I can feel axles on most
pedals, which I do not like. The moc's and MKS touring pedals are a
good combination in this regard.

I wish I could remember if I was wearing different shoes on the
fateful day. After a week of no biking (mostly due to travel), my
knee is just about back to normal. I did look at my q-factors
(thanks, Patrick): the q-factor on the BF is narrower than the Suluki
or Protobleriot. Both the Riv's run MKS touring pedals and they've
been great all along in all seasons; the BF has MKS EZY Promenades for
ease of assembly. The axles on the EZY's are not as wide, and so
there is a hump in the middle of the pedal that I can feel in soft
shoes. I'll try tinkering with saddle height as well.

Thanks, o mature Rivsters, for keeping this thread going. And all you
young Hipster Rivsters--this all might just come in handy some day in
the future. (Although once a hipster, always a hipster, so thanks to
the mature Hipster Rivsters out there)

Liesl