In theory: New Riv model with new SRAM 1x11 and no FD

[James Warren]

I'm pretty sure that the new Riv model with no cable stop for front shifting (and hence no easy way to do a FD) would be a great candidate the new cogs that SRAM is coming out with: 11 speed cluster in the rear with 42 as the largest one and only one chainring in the front.

You could do 34 or 32 as your single front chainring and still pretty much have a lowest gear suitable for touring. With a 32 in front, the 32/42 low would be very similar to a 24T granny combined with 32T rear cog. With a 34 in front, the 34/42 low would be a bit easier than a 24/29.

The lack of large outer chainring would provide good real estate for a pants guard. Also, I've been riding my 1x11 Alfine QB a lot lately, and it's nice to have a wide gear range and no FD. Just a bit less complication and a beautiful bare seat tube when you look down. I think it would be even better with a rear derailleur instead of IGH.

Such a bike would be really sweet.

-Jim W.

[Bertin753]

Really? A 42 t cog? What sort of rear dérailleur can handle so big a one? I suppose that one will need the proprietary SRAM rd?

That's great news--would allow a 46/34 double with a low in the 20s.

Patrick Moore

iPhone

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[ted]

I believe that yes you do need their new RD developed along with the
cassette.
Also worth noting is the 10t small cog in back and the 11 sp
spacing, ...
And a special new freehub body.

On Sep 23, 11:22 am, Bertin753 <bertin...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Really? A 42 t cog? What sort of rear dérailleur can handle so big a one? I suppose that one will need the proprietary SRAM rd?
>
> That's great news--would allow a 46/34 double with a low in the 20s.
>
> Patrick Moore
> iPhone
>

[David Yu Greenblatt]

http://www.sram.com/sram/mountain/family/xx1

http://www.bikemag.com/gear/first-impressions-sram-xx1/

I'm sure SRAM XX1 will work well, but the stuff will not be compatible with any other drivetrain parts that most of us already own (including most existing rear hubs), and the price will not be cheap. 

I kind of like GP's original suggestion of shifting with a stick. Has anybody tried that yet? An article on stick selection, modification, on-bike carrying/storage options, shifting technique, and alternate uses would be great for the Riv Reader or Blug. 

- David G in SF

[Matthew J]

I like 1 x set ups, but frankly am quite happy with the wide range (13 - 34) 5 speed Suntour freewheel that I have on my road bike.  Works for me.

[Michael_S]

Big cassettes/freewheels are not that new ....back in the early 80's I had a steel Schwinn Sierra, one of the 1st mountain bikes. Steel frame, room for 2.2 inch knobbies and a 14-38 Suntour drivetrain. It shifted pretty good, I recall. 

~mike

Carlsbad ca.

[Peter Morgano]

If they made a bar end shifter for that 11 speed alfine I would be all over it but I have used the click box before and it is so obtrusive. Alas jtek takes their time with a product and the bigwigs at shimano has no plans to make one.

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[cyclotourist]

Fine Italian walnut vs. California coastal oak. Please discuss.

On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 4:36 PM, David Yu Greenblatt <david.yu....@gmail.com> wrote:

I kind of like GP's original suggestion of shifting with a stick. Has anybody tried that yet? An article on stick selection, modification, on-bike carrying/storage options, shifting technique, and alternate uses would be great for the Riv Reader or Blug. 

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Cheers,
David
Redlands, CA

**
“Osama Bin Laden is dead. GM is alive.” ― Joe Biden

[dougP]

The Italians always do things with a certain flair; I'd like to see
their design. Walnut or oak is a tough call.

At one point I'd installed a MTB triple on a racing bike with a double
FD, & of course the drop onto the granny was unreliable. A simple
"toe to the chain" worked well as long as I planned ahead. Not so
good if in a hurry.

IIRC, as a youth Marathon Lon Haldeman rode without a FD (it broke or
something). He would be the expert on reliability & importance of
FDs. Years ago, he did a story for the paper RR about an exploratory
trip to I believe Peru & I think he set the bike up as a 1 x 7 or 8
for simplicity, reliability & because "that was good enough".

dougP

On Sep 23, 6:09 pm, cyclotourist <cyclotour...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Fine Italian walnut vs. California coastal oak. Please discuss.
>
> On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 4:36 PM, David Yu Greenblatt <
>

> david.yu.greenbl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I kind of like GP's original suggestion of shifting with a stick. Has
> > anybody tried that yet? An article on stick selection, modification,
> > on-bike carrying/storage options, shifting technique, and alternate uses
> > would be great for the Riv Reader or Blug.
>
> --
> Cheers,
> David
> Redlands, CA
>
> **

> "Osama Bin Laden is dead. GM is alive." -- *Joe Biden*

[Matt Beebe]

Could you just get a clamp-on stop for an FD on the mystery bike?     Or is there another reason why it will not take an FD (like the angle between ST and chainstays or something)?     I know it has a very specialized geometry for the type of riding/handling it is intended for, but am just curious if there really is a limitation preventing use of available FDs or if one could be designed/modified for it.      Of course, I'm sure some folks will use an IGH on these rigs.  

[Scott G.]

If you are considering a stick, how about a clanger ?
Just a stick bolted to the seat tube.
I have the Simplex on my Claude Butler,
works great, better than early matchbox derailleurs.
Image from Classic Lightweights.

[Steve Palincsar]

On Sun, 2012-09-23 at 16:36 -0700, David Yu Greenblatt wrote:
> http://www.sram.com/sram/mountain/family/xx1
> http://www.bikemag.com/gear/first-impressions-sram-xx1/
>
>
> I'm sure SRAM XX1 will work well, but the stuff will not be compatible
> with any other drivetrain parts that most of us already own (including
> most existing rear hubs), and the price will not be cheap.

I think I saw on the VSalon Forum that these cassettes will run around
$425 each. Pretty amazing for a wear item, I think!

[James Warren]

For Red, Force, Rival, or Apex?

Will they have price levels beyond $425?

On Sep 24, 2012, at 5:33 AM, Steve Palincsar wrote:

I think I saw on the VSalon Forum that these cassettes will run around
$425 each.  Pretty amazing for a wear item, I think!

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[Steve Palincsar]

On Mon, 2012-09-24 at 07:05 -0700, James Warren wrote:
>
>
> For Red, Force, Rival, or Apex?

For that XX1.

[Jeremy Till]

I'm pretty sure the combination of slack seat tube angle, super low BB, and long chainstays that angle noticeably upwards from the BB prevents the use of a normal FD on the Mystery Bike/HS/Bosco Rubbe.  If you set the derailleur low enough to be effective, the cage will hit the chainstay before it can shift into the small ring.

This is conjecture from having seen one in person, but I haven't ridden one or asked RBW.  The one in my size hadn't been built up when I was there.

[Robert Barr]

Both good choices, but the Italian walnut isn't what it once was. Maybe some blue Japanese oak (Quercus glauca )? Bob

[dougP]

I've often thought one of those shifters would be fine. My big ring is small enough that it covers most of my unloaded riding. 

 

I recall these shifters from when I first started riding, but in those days most doubles were only 5-7 teeth apart and triples pretty rare, with maybe a total difference between  3 rings of 14-16 teeth.  Wonder if one of these would work on a 22-24 tooth difference?  The issues of BB height, chainstay vs ST angle, etc., would still be there. 

 

dougP

[James Warren]

OK, well I think I won Dumb Question of the Day today:

I'm kind of amused by the fact that now my knee-jerk thinking about bike parts is such that I no longer make the distinction between "road" and "mountain." I guess that's what 11 years of almost exclusive All-rounder riding can do to you.

But anyway, back to the point, is SRAM really only going to offer one price level for that 11-speed rear cluster that goes to 42T? If so, that's a deal-breaker. I'd still like to believe that all derailleur systems have a cassette for sale that can be had for around $40.

Another point: for the SRAM 1x11 to work for a lot of us all-rounder types who like drop bars, I guess it would require a commitment to shifting 11 cogs in friction mode. While SRAM mountain and SRAM road parts are generally interchangeable, I doubt that they'll be making a brifter or bar-end shifter for 11 speeds until their road system pushes over the cliff from 10 to 11. So that means friction for those who don't plan to use the dedicated flat bar shifter.

So I guess the following sums it up for me: if the 1x11 bike only required the cassette and the RD as special parts from SRAM, and if I could be comfortable using friction bar-end shifting across 11 cogs, and if this would all bring my low gear down to around 34/42, I would go for it...

...but not if the cassette is in the hundreds of dollars. That's a bummer. Thanks for the heads-up, Steve.

[Zack]

I stick shifted my Sam when i ruined my front derailer and was waiting a few weeks to replace it.

I didn't dedicate a stick, i left it up to the world to provide me a stick when I needed it.  I also didn't shift much.  Funny how we learn to make do.  

[dougP]

Maybe this 1 x 11 equipment will start out at the top of the line &
then trickle down if it sticks. $425 for a cassette is aimed at some
extremely rich riders. Is 11 speed chain even narrower thatn 10
speed? Wonder how friction would work on 11 speed off-road?

When you think about 10 teeth to 42, it's only slightly over 4:1. A
5:1 range (e.g., 20" to 100") is a nice touring, all rounder range.
So even with that enormous cassette tooth difference, one would have
to compromise at one end or the other.

The single front ring idea seems interesting, but the trade-off seems
a lot more complexity at the back in exchange for a slightly simpler
front system. Could this be yet another solution in search of a
problem?

doug "8 speed with a triple & I'm sticking with it" P

[Matt Beebe]

I remember reading somewhere (in the RR?) on the subject of ever-expanding cassettes, "seven is heaven, eight is great, nine is fine, ten is getting a little ridiculous."

To which I would add that  an 11 cog cassette is straight up pointless.     But to each his own.

[Allingham II, Thomas J]

At least for the new model with its horizontal drops, you can use an IGH.  And the Rohloff hub gives more than 500% range, better than any cassette, I would guess.  Very expensive of course, but the quality and durability match the price.  And the Alfine 11 gives more than a 400% range; I've never used the Alfine 11, but I understand it's mechanically very like the Rohloff 14 at around a third the price.

---

From: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com [mailto:rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Matt Beebe
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2012 5:28 PM
To: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [RBW] Re: In theory: New Riv model with new SRAM 1x11 and no FD

I remember reading somewhere (in the RR?) on the subject of ever-expanding cassettes, "seven is heaven, eight is great, nine is fine, ten is getting a little ridiculous."

To which I would add that  an 11 cog cassette is straight up pointless.     But to each his own.

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[Matt Beebe]

I hope to try a Rohloff one day.     People who have them swear by them, and judging by their huge ratio range, reputation for reliability, and other benefits I'm inclined to believe they are well worth the money.     I could totally see mystery bike owners choosing to use an IGH, but a wide-range 11-32 8-speed like Riv sells would probably be my choice if I couldn't get a Rohloff.

[Allingham II, Thomas J]

I have a Rohloff hub, which I unfortunately built into a 650B wheel for my Bombadil -- I've been trying to find a way not to use a chain tensioner ever since.  (No particularly good reason; I just think it would look a lot better, and I didn't buy the Rohloff chain tensioner when I bought the hub.)  So I've ridden it around the block a few times, and that's it.  But you're right -- it's hard to find a Rohloff owner who'll say anything bad about them.

---

From: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com [mailto:rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Matt Beebe

Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2012 5:44 PM
To: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [RBW] Re: In theory: New Riv model with new SRAM 1x11 and no FD

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/PYLl6bVARvEJ.

[James Warren]

Well, I'm not sure why SRAM designed it since triples are perfectly good.

But given that it is coming out, I know that if I had a bike that was designed to not have a front derailleur, I would certainly want all my gearing covered with one ring. I do not want to get off to shift by hand or shift with a stick. Hence the 42 in back would appeal to me.

But honestly, I don't think I'd buy the Rivendell that doesn't allow front shifting while pedaling. (Unless it were a wide-ranging IGH bike.)

[James Warren]

The Alfine 11 is great. I have it on my QB. I have several Rivs, and in the pack I think the QB is rapidly becoming my favorite.

 

It's the first time the bike has the full gear range I've been looking for in my hilly hometown.

[Steve Palincsar]

On Wed, 2012-09-26 at 15:44 -0700, James Warren wrote:
> Well, I'm not sure why SRAM designed it since triples are perfectly good.
>
> But given that it is coming out, I know that if I had a bike that was designed to not have a front derailleur, I would certainly want all my gearing covered with one ring. I do not want to get off to shift by hand or shift with a stick. Hence the 42 in back would appeal to me.
>
> But honestly, I don't think I'd buy the Rivendell that doesn't allow front shifting while pedaling. (Unless it were a wide-ranging IGH bike.)

Why would a wide-range IGH be better than a single-chainring wide range
derailleur bike?

[James Warren]

Shifting gears while the bike is stopped and your feet are on the ground is a nice benefit. Really helps a lot in traffic.

And a straight chain path with no rear derailleur to run through is nice as well.

Additionally, as Doug mentioned, there is the gear range issue. Rohloff for sure and I believe Alfine 11 provide a broader range than 10-42 would. But reason 1 is the biggest benefit.

-----Original Message-----
>From: Steve Palincsar <pali...@his.com>
>
>Why would a wide-range IGH be better than a single-chainring wide range
>derailleur bike?
>
>
>

[Peter Morgano]

I run an alfine on my bombadil and it is really nice not having to worry about dropping a chain or missing a gear, being able to shift at a light and not having to worry about the elements on the rear wheel. I know they have thier haters but I think when people give it a shot they seem to like them.

[Tom M]

I'm really kind of intrigued by the 1x11. From what I've read, it's a whole system — special front crankset with the teeth shaped so that no chain catcher is required, and the RD is new as well, moving differently than typical derailers. This link has some details: http://www.bikerumor.com/2012/08/17/first-ride-impressions-and-tech-breakdown-of-the-new-1x11-sram-xx1-drivetrain/. I've run a 1/7 setup before, but this has greater range and closer ratios. But it's all way outside my price range, so it's either my single speed or downtube shifters on my old road bike.

--Tom

[PATRICK MOORE]

Interesting and doubtless silly-expensive. I'd like to know the proposed price of those one-piece cassettes. The idea is good, but I wish they'd put that R&D into cheaper, wider-range (500%+) and more efficient internal geared hubs instead of ever more complex and expensive -- and finicky? Don't know -- multi-cog drivetrains. ...Tho' of course hub gears are always more complex than any derailleur system; OTOH again, it's all inside a shell.

I personally would like to steal the 42 and RD, but beyond that a 1X8 or 9 would be ideal. Wonder if the rd would work with Silvers?

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[Steve Palincsar]

On Thu, 2012-09-27 at 19:59 -0600, PATRICK MOORE wrote:
> Interesting and doubtless silly-expensive. I'd like to know the
> proposed price of those one-piece cassettes.

I saw $450 ea mentioned on the VSalon forum, IIRC. That's one hell of a
piece of change for a wear item.

[Tom M]

I believe the cassettes are around $425, and they require a special hub. You're buying a system, really. It's geared for terrain riding, so a different market than the Roloff. Lighter, too, I'd imagine.

[Peter Morgano]

So for the whole system, cassette, special hub and special chainring/crankset you are over 1k? That is alot of outlay. Thats almost 3 full Alfine 11 hubs which each last for about 5 years of heavy use.

[Montclair BobbyB]

Back when the mystery bike was still a mystery, Grant had thrown out a clue, which I had wrongly guessed as meaning the inclusion of a "Hammerschmidt" 2-speed derailleur-less crankset.  Well I wonder now whether it might not be a bad experiment to try out the FSA Metropolis Patterson crank on the mystery bike, since it requires no special ISG tab.  In fact I just ordered a Metropolis crank for my SimpleOne, since I live atop an intense Alp-d'huez-like climb... (maybe I'll have to rename it SimpleTwo.) 

So to my good buddy Tom A, if you would like (before I toss it on the S1), we can try out the Metropolis on your MB...  let me know; once I get that tiger-blood climbing gear on Charlie Sheen, I may never give it up... 

Peace,
BB

[Allingham II, Thomas J]

 The gear range from the cassette in back is enough at least for now for my contemplated usage of the Mystery Bike (which shall henceforth be known as the Dasher Hammett), Bobby, so install away on your SO.  But interestingly, while riding with Grant yesterday at the College Park ride, I asked him what the "one big choice" was that he had mentioned in early Blug entries on the Mystery Bike.  At first he didn't remember, then quickly recalled that they had been thinking of offering an IGH option -- discarded because too few fold know how to work on them.

I might still try one on mine someday. 

Sent from my iPhone

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