Grant on Brian Lehrer

[Peter M]

Good discussion, comments on the bottom of the page prove what an
asshole place NYC is to live....

http://www.wnyc.org/shows/bl/2012/jul/23/bicycling-101/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=%24%7Bfeed%7D&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+%24%7Bbl%7D+%28%24%7BBrian+Lehrer%7D%29

[PATRICK MOORE]

Oh, c'mon. Just because someone disagrees with someone else doesn't
make him an asshole.

I personally disagree with much of what the commentators say; I'll go
further and say that some of the comments are stupid; but then I also
disagree with much of what Grant says, and I think tweed mudflaps are
stupid. That's fine, I like and respect Grant and his company and have
been a member at least in spirit since it started in 1994.

There *is* a lot of koolaid quaffing on this list, even tho' Grant
does not encourage it.

On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 1:03 PM, Peter M <uscpet...@gmail.com> wrote:
> [snip] comments on the bottom of the page prove what an

> asshole place NYC is to live....
>
> http://www.wnyc.org/shows/bl/2012/jul/23/bicycling-101/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=%24%7Bfeed%7D&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+%24%7Bbl%7D+%28%24%7BBrian+Lehrer%7D%29
>

--
"When in Rome, do as they done in Milledgeville."

Flannery O'Connor

-------------------------
Patrick Moore, Albuquerque, NM, USA
For professional resumes, contact Patrick Moore, ACRW
http://resumespecialties.com/index.html
-------------------------

[Peter Morgano]

Alll good points, I personally dont agree with grant over the helmet thing either,  but having lived in NYC for a long time I can personally attest that it is filled with assholes, haha. Some of them just happen to ride bikes but for the most part the bike haters dont even ride, they are just know it all asshole New Yorkers whose cars stay parked for weeks at a time to save their spots, geniuses!

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[PATRICK MOORE]

I was just reading Lovely Bicycle's thread about walking bikes into
grocery stores in lieu of shopping carts, something I've done here in
ABQ, NM for years to the welcoming smiles and greetings of the two
Albertson's stores in question (I keep the bikes out of stores with
narrower aisles). I get the sense that this sort of behavior is a lot
more chancy in the eastern-urban areas of the US. Perhaps it's all
that crowding compared to our wide-open spaces.

Assuredly, ABQ has its share of assholes, but on the whole it's pretty
relaxed about cycling and the various species thereof -- roadies
proffer friendly greetings to duffers like me, for example.

[Peter Morgano]

Hahahahaha, my local c-town aisles are so narrow two carts wont fit down them, I can only imagine if you tried to bring a bike down those things, especially with 58cm Bosco Bars!! I do think that dense areas like NYC are more eco friendly if you think about it since most of us just carry our groceries home. I even have my old lady cart for the big loads!  Its like the crowding makes it so difficult to drive so unless you like sitting in traffic all day you have to walk more. I walk 25 blocks a day just getting to work which is more than my friends upstate walk in a month. Shame that the alot of the city is still stuck in Robert Moses mode though, driving is just such a waste here.

[Peter Morgano]

Now grant is offering free books to first 10 anti-fans to call him. Way more professional and classy than I could ever hope to be in his position.

[Joe K]

Wow, I didn't know he was on; I would have listened. I like Brian
Lehrer's show; intelligent guy who has good topics and interesting
guests.

Not sure I agree with Peter M about NYers being a$$holes. Of course
such folks live here. There are lots of good, interesting, and really
smart people here too, though. And lots of them stop me in my tracks
to compliment me on my Rivendell.

Joe

On Jul 23, 3:42 pm, Peter Morgano <uscpeter11...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hahahahaha, my local c-town aisles are so narrow two carts wont fit down
> them, I can only imagine if you tried to bring a bike down those things,
> especially with 58cm Bosco Bars!! I do think that dense areas like NYC are
> more eco friendly if you think about it since most of us just carry our
> groceries home. I even have my old lady cart for the big loads!  Its like
> the crowding makes it so difficult to drive so unless you like sitting in
> traffic all day you have to walk more. I walk 25 blocks a day just getting
> to work which is more than my friends upstate walk in a month. Shame that
> the alot of the city is still stuck in Robert Moses mode though, driving is
> just such a waste here.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 3:36 PM, PATRICK MOORE <bertin...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I was just reading Lovely Bicycle's thread about walking bikes into
> > grocery stores in lieu of shopping carts, something I've done here in
> > ABQ, NM for years to the welcoming smiles and greetings of the two
> > Albertson's stores in question (I keep the bikes out of stores with
> > narrower aisles). I get the sense that this sort of behavior is a lot
> > more chancy in the eastern-urban areas of the US. Perhaps it's all
> > that crowding compared to our wide-open spaces.
>
> > Assuredly, ABQ has its share of assholes, but on the whole it's pretty
> > relaxed about cycling and the various species thereof -- roadies
> > proffer friendly greetings to duffers like me, for example.
>

> > On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 1:30 PM, Peter Morgano <uscpeter11...@gmail.com>

> > wrote:
> > > Alll good points, I personally dont agree with grant over the helmet
> > thing
> > > either,  but having lived in NYC for a long time I can personally attest
> > > that it is filled with assholes, haha. Some of them just happen to ride
> > > bikes but for the most part the bike haters dont even ride, they are just
> > > know it all asshole New Yorkers whose cars stay parked for weeks at a
> > time
> > > to save their spots, geniuses!
>

> > > On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 3:10 PM, PATRICK MOORE <bertin...@gmail.com>

> > wrote:
>
> > >> Oh, c'mon. Just because someone disagrees with someone else doesn't
> > >> make him an asshole.
>
> > >> I personally disagree with much of what the commentators say; I'll go
> > >> further and say that some of the comments are stupid; but then I also
> > >> disagree with much of what Grant says, and I think tweed mudflaps are
> > >> stupid. That's fine, I like and respect Grant and his company and have
> > >> been a member at least in spirit since it started in 1994.
>
> > >> There *is* a lot of koolaid quaffing on this list, even tho' Grant
> > >> does not encourage it.
>

> > >> On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 1:03 PM, Peter M <uscpeter11...@gmail.com>

> > wrote:
> > >> > [snip] comments on the bottom of the page prove what an
> > >> > asshole place NYC is to live....
>

> >http://www.wnyc.org/shows/bl/2012/jul/23/bicycling-101/?utm_source=fe...

[Peter Morgano]

Alot of people stop me here too, track star wanna bes cutting me off in the bike lane, delivery guys going the wrong way with thier headphones on, kids on bmx bikes weaving in and out of traffic smoking weed, idiots in SUVs who try to crush me into double parked cars, all kinds of nice stops!  Sorry, I grew up upstate and generally hate riding around here, my wife loves the city though so here we are and I guess I should just stop whining but man do I miss a nice country road.  I will wear her down into getting out of here one of these years.

[Eric Norris]

No discussion of New York would be complete without first considering the words of the punk band Fear:

http://www.metrolyrics.com/new-yorks-alright-if-you-like-saxophones-lyrics-fear.html

–Eric N

Sent from my iPhone 4S 

[Esteban]

Fun to listen to!  Upon reading the comments - its just amazing how brainwashed most people who ride a bike appear: helmets, weight, clip-in, blinking... there seems to be no option for any alternative.  I do all of these at some times (although *never* a blinking light), but certainly not all the time.  For most people, Just Ride may just be the most important book on riding there ever has been.  Racing die-hards, helmet-nazis, and proselytizing vehicular cyclists all seem at the opposite end of what makes biking enjoyable: ride like a kid.  

Esteban

San Diego, Calif.

[hobie]

Still the greatest city in the world. Been riding these streets for 41 years,over the 59th st bridge at age 10 with friends from Astoria,no bike lane,you had to ride the outer rodeway w. cars. It was suicide.  It should be up to the rider if he/she wants to wear a helmet. I was a bike messenger in the late 70's NYC and didn't wear one. Cops never bothered cyclist then,they do now. I preferred riding the streets of NY when no bike lanes existed, although Mayor Koch tried it in the early 80's. That was a bad move. More rules bring more enforcement. There is a serious bike boom going on so I guess you need more rules. Grant offers some good advice about fatter tires, but not all bikes can take them. Just did a 53 miler w. a friend from westchester, down to staten Island ferry then back up east river drive to Cental park,Harlem to Bronx,Westchester and I can't think of a better bike to do it on. Saluki !!! How do you say "33rd and 3rd" ? 

[charlie]

Great job Grant..........in such a limited format.....don't let some of doz guyz get ya down. Controversy always gets attention. Its just too bad many still believe the common misconceptions you often speak of. I used to think many of things you speak about were necessary (clipless pedals, cycling specific clothing, helmets all that stuff) until I actually thought about it critically and remembered my youth and all the riding we did without any of that stuff. I actually did ride a bicycle like most of the rest of the world did and still does with.........no helmet, no special 'kit', no special shoes, bars actually higher than my saddle, wider tires and no emphasis on riding all bent over like a professional racer. Those were some of the best bicycling years of my life.....and I didn't die (thankfully) from not wearing a helmet even though I crashed more than once.

On Monday, July 23, 2012 12:03:20 PM UTC-7, Peter M wrote:

[Joe Bernard]

I'm in full support of not riding with a helmet if that's what you choose, but stories from old guys who made it through their youths without them are easy to come by from the ones who actually made it, 'cause, ya know, we made it! I crashed a goodly number of times on my old Stingrays and 10-speeds, and banged my head hard a few times. I'm lucky I got away with it, and usually wear a helmet now.

 

Joe Bernard

Vallejo, CA.

[Peter Morgano]

My favorite comment of all was

 

 "Mike In Bklyn from Brooklyn

Boy there was a lot of misleading info in this segment.

On clips and pulling up on the pedals-- anyone who tries to pedal a bike out of the saddle comes quickly to appreciate clips. And I don't know what kind of riding this quy has done, but he should try climbing a 9% grade hill and then tell me whether could do so without pulling up on pedals"  Take that grant, i bet he is always just wishing he had those clipless pedals up Mt Diablo, since as another guy said the ones without clips ruin our knees. What a bunch of mouth breathers, this is why bikesnob has just been able to eviscerate the culture around bikes, it can just get so silly. And while it is a shame not everyone can afford a Rivendell that doesnt make them out of reach, I mean these people should think about how much money they piss away on cars and gas, you will make your money back pretty fast.

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[Bertin753]

Actually, foot retention does help when grinding a fixed 70 -- 75" gear up a steep hill. You can't do it for long  -- half a mile, say -- but it certainly helps. One reason I went back to clipless was that I kept pulling my feet out of the straps when climbing 

Patrick Moore

iPhone

[Peter Morgano]

When I rode fixie for a long time I used the clipless system because I knew my foot wasnt going to come off down a descent and stick my leg into an MKS eggbeater. I always found that when climbing though clipless seemed like they limited how much i could stand up and just hammer on the pedals. I never thought upstroke was really more than hogwash, long before reading about grant's stuff. I lifted weights when I was wrestling and woudl do an exercise that looked alot like a back stroke on a bike and it made my legs burn and I had little power, I just dont think it is one that utilizes the big muscles in your legs the right way. Legs are made for pushing, not really for pulling.

[Mike]

It's nice that the book is getting some exposure and being discussed. Hopefully the people who are taking its message to heart are too busy having fun riding their bike to chime in via the web. 

As for NYC... I love visiting but have no desire to ride my bike there. I've spent a fair amount of time in the city and I went to grad school on Long Island, SUNY SB, and while it was very beautiful out there it was a terrifying place to ride a bike. On quiet back roads people tended to speed and would not hesitate to blare their horn at you. Yeah, it wasn't for me. I remember my first ride back in the Marin Headlands after returning to SF, I almost had tears in my eyes. It was so good to be home. 

All that said, my wife is from Nyack and we were visiting last year and I saw lots of groups of people in Nyack who had apparently pedaled out that way from NYC. Although this was the racer/pseudo-racer crowd, they by and large looked happy to be out on their bikes. People get used to what they have and deal with it. 

I feel very fortunate to live in Portland, OR. It's pretty friggin awesome for cycling here. Lots of folks "just ride" in this town, I bet a lot of them have never even heard of Rivendell or Grant and are out there living/riding what he's talking about.

--mike

[PATRICK MOORE]

When I climb those steep hills, I am very aware of pulling up quite
hard to gain extra torque, something I can't do as well with clips and
straps. I can feel the bike accelerate when pulling hard.

[Peter Morgano]

Maybe it's an individual thing, I always found myself stomping on them to get more power.  Now I just sit in super low gear and if it's that steep take a nice walk, my knees go snap crackle and pop in the morning as it is, haha.

[David Hallerman]

On 7/23/12 3:42 PM, Peter Morgano wrote:

Shame that the alot of the city is still stuck in Robert Moses mode

Well, since 54% of households in New York City do not own a car -- a lower percentage of car ownership than any other city in the US of A -- perhaps the "a lot" being "stuck" is totally inaccurate. (Although I'd love to see fewer cars on the island of Manhattan.)

On 7/23/12 4:48 PM, Peter Morgano wrote:

I should just stop whining but man do I miss a nice country road. 

From New York City, get on a Metro-North train going to Westchester (bike pass is nearly free, lifetime pass for only $5). Take Hudson line or Harlem line to the north part of Westchester or into Putnam and Dutchess counties.

Get off.

Many country roads, with drivers far more polite than most of NYC or Long Island or New Jersey. (Oh, plan ahead with a cue sheet. Here's a free source for cue sheets in the Hudson Valley:
http://www.roberts-1.com/bikehudson/

Dave
Peekskill, NY (formerly Brooklyn and Manhattan)

[Peter Morgano]

David, its just that the city for all of Doomberg's proselytizing is still set up mainly for car traffic, even though a good bit of people dont drive.  And the outer boroughs are really deprived, but that is par for the course in the city.  I lived in the Hudson Valley on the border of NJ for 12 years where my parents still have a house so I do know how to get up there and have ridden fire trails and parks upstate extensively but I live on 80th street in Bay Ridge, takes an hour on the subway to just get to NYC. Point to point on the train from here to westchester where my Dad lives is 2 hours, that is after switching from subway to train.  Its just not realistic for me to spend 4 hours on trains to get out there just for a ride.  I am pushing hard for this to be my last year in NYC though so hopefully will post some nice ride reports next year around this time! 

[Jim Cloud]

The choice to wear a helmet is entirely up to the individual and I
don't wish to start a pro-helmet/anti-helmet discussion. I do,
however, find that my current preference is in favor of wearing a
helmet.

I also don't agree with Grant that wearing a helmet necessarily
promotes a riskier still of riding. I've ridden both without a helmet
and with a helmet, and I don't believe that my riding style changes
one iota.

Jim Cloud
Tucson, AZ

> >>http://www.wnyc.org/shows/bl/2012/jul/23/bicycling-101/?utm_source=fe...

[Steve Palincsar]

On Tue, 2012-07-24 at 12:47 -0700, Jim Cloud wrote:
>
> I also don't agree with Grant that wearing a helmet necessarily
> promotes a riskier still of riding. I've ridden both without a helmet
> and with a helmet, and I don't believe that my riding style changes
> one iota.

Were the "safety equipment begets riskier activity" argument true, when
we look back on driving cars in the 1950s -- back in the days of
spear-you-through-the-chest steering columns and steel dashboards with
big knobs that would smash your skull and no seatbelts so you'd go
flying through the windshield or into the dashboard or get impaled on
the steering column -- you would expect to see safer driving habits than
you see now. And those of us who were there can tell you with
authority, there was no such thing.

[Peter Morgano]

I think that what Grant is driving at is that while seatbelts and other safety improvements have gone a long way to save lives helmet technology simply has not advanced that far and is being applied as a panacea to tell people they are "safer" when in fact they are probably not.  http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/1999/jun/15/healthandwellbeing.health1

 

Like I have said, I wear one but I also ride cautiously, I have a family that needs me at home so they can annoy me about how I ride too much....

[Peter Morgano]

I think that what Grant is driving at is that while seatbelts and other safety improvements have gone a long way to save lives (in cars, sorry) helmet technology simply has not advanced that far and is being applied as a panacea to tell people they are "safer" when in fact they are probably not.  http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/1999/jun/15/healthandwellbeing.health1

 

Like I have said, I wear one but I also ride cautiously, I have a family that needs me at home so they can annoy me about how I ride too much....

[Norman Bone]

Hi Steve-

Have you read this?:

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/Presence-of-Mind-Buckle-Up-And-Behave.html

Norman in Portland, OR

---

From: Steve Palincsar <pali...@his.com>
To: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2012 12:58 PM
Subject: Re: [RBW] Re: Grant on Brian Lehrer

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[Steve Palincsar]

On Tue, 2012-07-24 at 13:26 -0700, Norman Bone wrote:
> Hi Steve-
>
>
> Have you read this?:
> http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/Presence-of-Mind-Buckle-Up-And-Behave.html
>

I'm with Anne McCartt. As I said, I was there. I know how people drove
then and I know how people drive now. It's a facile theory, full of
something that begins with s and fury, signifying nothing.

;-)

[Steve Palincsar]

On Tue, 2012-07-24 at 16:09 -0400, Peter Morgano wrote:
> I think that what Grant is driving at is that while seatbelts and

> other safety improvements have gone a long way to save lives (in cars,
> sorry) helmet technology simply has not advanced that far and is being
> applied as a panacea to tell people they are "safer" when in fact they
> are probably not.

I think there are many here who have crashed while wearing a helmet and
have the evidence that in fact they /were/ safer because of it. I'm one
of them.

[Peter Morgano]

I have also crashed and thought the helmet stopped me from being hurt worse than I could have been but studies have shown that is just how we feel, which is not always accurate to what is actually going on.  The evidence is pretty substantial that putting and inch of foam between your head and the road isnt really going to save you, its not like an airbag or a crumple zone or anything that substanial. I will continue to wear mine though and hope for the day where instead of putting batteries in shifters the bike bike companies can work on a helmet strong enough to actually save our lives.

[Steve Palincsar]

On Tue, 2012-07-24 at 17:49 -0400, Peter Morgano wrote:
> I have also crashed and thought the helmet stopped me from being hurt
> worse than I could have been but studies have shown that is just how
> we feel, which is not always accurate to what is actually going on.
> The evidence is pretty substantial that putting and inch of foam
> between your head and the road isnt really going to save you, its not
> like an airbag or a crumple zone or anything that substanial. I will
> continue to wear mine though and hope for the day where instead of
> putting batteries in shifters the bike bike companies can work on a
> helmet strong enough to actually save our lives.

Peter, when the evidence is half-inch deep gouges in the outer shell and
through the foam, the only question is, "Would you rather have those
gouges in your helmet, or in the skin on your face and head?"
Completely unambiguous.

[Peter Morgano]

Oh, I agree, i am one of the better safe than sorry worry warts who makes sure he has his keys twice before he locks the door behind him. I do think that helmets can prevent injury but I just dont know if they can save your life in a situation where you would otherwise be killed.

[Steve Palincsar]

On Tue, 2012-07-24 at 18:35 -0400, Peter Morgano wrote:
> Oh, I agree, i am one of the better safe than sorry worry warts who
> makes sure he has his keys twice before he locks the door behind him.
> I do think that helmets can prevent injury but I just dont know if
> they can save your life in a situation where you would otherwise be
> killed.

Probably sometimes, but certainly not always.

[Joe Bernard]

I don't consider it a matter of life and death; rather, going home sore, or going home with a concussion. A helmet isn't gonna do you much good in a collision with a car, but most riders have at one time or another had some sort of solo crash. A popped tire, a slide on oil, front wheel caught in a crack in the road. These are the events that take you from upright to body-slamming the pavement. I would prefer to have my helmet take that bounce when my head reaches rapid deceleration.

 

Joe Bernard

Vallejo, CA.

[Steve Palincsar]

On Tue, 2012-07-24 at 16:16 -0700, Joe Bernard wrote:
> I don't consider it a matter of life and death; rather, going home
> sore, or going home with a concussion. A helmet isn't gonna do you
> much good in a collision with a car, but most riders have at one time
> or another had some sort of solo crash. A popped tire, a slide on oil,
> front wheel caught in a crack in the road. These are the events that
> take you from upright to body-slamming the pavement. I would prefer to
> have my helmet take that bounce when my head reaches rapid
> deceleration.

Exactly so.

[Matthew J]

Thing is, more solo bike accidents conclude with busted knees, collar bones, arms, road rash than concussions or skull fractures.

The shoulder, knee and elbow pads football players wear would certainly have made a difference in these situations.  None the less, day in and day out I see cyclists wearing helmets and little else.  

If helmet wearing cyclists don't think their lids are a panacea, I'll be darned if I understand why they worry so little about the rest of their bodies when viable protective gear is readily available.

[Steve Palincsar]

On Tue, 2012-07-24 at 17:52 -0700, Matthew J wrote:
> Thing is, more solo bike accidents conclude with busted knees, collar
> bones, arms, road rash than concussions or skull fractures.
>

Except that collar bones, broken arms, road rash and what all won't kill
you and won't destroy your personality the way a brain injury can.

> The shoulder, knee and elbow pads football players wear would
> certainly have made a difference in these situations. None the less,
> day in and day out I see cyclists wearing helmets and little else.
>
>
> If helmet wearing cyclists don't think their lids are a panacea, I'll
> be darned if I understand why they worry so little about the rest of
> their bodies when viable protective gear is readily available.

You want to try riding a bike wearing football player body armor?

[Joe Bernard]

Except that collar bones, broken arms, road rash and what all won't kill
you and won't destroy your personality the way a brain injury can.

 

Pre. Cisely.

 

Joe Bernard

Vallejo, CA.

[Mike]

With broken collarbones it's not a matter of if, it's a matter of
when...

[ted]

Curious. I think track racers were much slower than road racers to
adopt clipless systems. When I went to the velodrome (several years
ago but long after clipless became dominant on road bikes) the only
folks using clipless were the ones using their road bike pedals on the
rental bikes. Virtually everybody with their own track bike used clips
straps and slotted cleats. Clipless pedals were generally considered
less secure, and as you observe loosing a pedal on a fixed gear at
speed is much more inconvenient than it is when you can coast.
I still kinda like the unique sense you get riding a fixed gear with
old style cleats toe clips and straps.

On Jul 23, 9:32 pm, Peter Morgano <uscpeter11...@gmail.com> wrote:
> When I rode fixie for a long time I used the clipless system because I knew
> my foot wasnt going to come off down a descent and stick my leg into an MKS
> eggbeater. I always found that when climbing though clipless seemed like
> they limited how much i could stand up and just hammer on the pedals. I
> never thought upstroke was really more than hogwash, long before reading
> about grant's stuff. I lifted weights when I was wrestling and woudl do an
> exercise that looked alot like a back stroke on a bike and it made my legs
> burn and I had little power, I just dont think it is one that utilizes the
> big muscles in your legs the right way. Legs are made for pushing, not
> really for pulling.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 12:25 AM, Bertin753 <bertin...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Actually, foot retention does help when grinding a fixed 70 -- 75" gear up
> > a steep hill. You can't do it for long  -- half a mile, say -- but it
> > certainly helps. One reason I went back to clipless was that I kept pulling
> > my feet out of the straps when climbing
>
> > Patrick Moore
> > iPhone
>

> > On Jul 23, 2012, at 10:10 PM, Peter Morgano <uscpeter11...@gmail.com>

> > wrote:
>
> > My favorite comment of all was
>
> >  "Mike In Bklyn from Brooklyn
>
> > Boy there was a lot of misleading info in this segment.
>
> > On clips and pulling up on the pedals-- anyone who tries to pedal a bike
> > out of the saddle comes quickly to appreciate clips. And I don't know what
> > kind of riding this quy has done, but he should try climbing a 9% grade
> > hill and then tell me whether could do so without pulling up on pedals"
> > Take that grant, i bet he is always just wishing he had those clipless
> > pedals up Mt Diablo, since as another guy said the ones without clips ruin
> > our knees. What a bunch of mouth breathers, this is why bikesnob has just
> > been able to eviscerate the culture around bikes, it can just get so silly.
> > And while it is a shame not everyone can afford a Rivendell that doesnt
> > make them out of reach, I mean these people should think about how much
> > money they piss away on cars and gas, you will make your money back pretty
> > fast.
>

> >>>>http://www.wnyc.org/shows/bl/**2012/jul/23/bicycling-101/?**
> >>>> utm_source=feedburner&utm_**medium=%24%7Bfeed%7D&utm_**
> >>>> campaign=Feed%3A+%24%7Bbl%7D+%**28%24%7BBrian+Lehrer%7D%29<http://www.wnyc.org/shows/bl/2012/jul/23/bicycling-101/?utm_source=fe...>

[Matthew J]

> Except that collar bones, broken arms, road rash and what all won't kill
> you and won't destroy your personality the way a brain injury can.

Must not read the NYTimes.  As a story gripping NY recently demonstrates, a broken bone that perforates the skin, followed by septic shock, and you die just as easily as from concussion.

 

A crippling arm or leg injury can end riding days forever, which, given the passion many here devote to cycling would certainly prompt a major lifestyle change.

 

> You want to try riding a bike wearing football player body armor?

My point.  In the U.S. helmets are accepted almost without question as a necessity.  Yet other protective devices which clearly would make a difference are given short shrift because they are inconvenient.  Suggesting to me that, as GP says, the enthusiasm for helmets reaches into irrational exuberance.

[Robert Barr]

No way am I going to enter the helmet wars. I do want to say that one of the reasons that I follow this group is that its most regular contributors are collegial. Civil discourse is rare these days and it is good to read your collective thoughtful opinions. Today's Yehuda Moon is remarkably appropriate. Rick must be out there...   

On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 9:40 PM, Mike <mjaw...@gmail.com> wrote:

With broken collarbones it's not a matter of if, it's a matter of
when...

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.

[Joe K]

I must say that, following a couple of injuries, I have wondered why
there's no promotion of knee, wrist and other joint protective gear.

Joe

[Peter Morgano]

A long time ago me and my brother used to ride single track and would wear knee and elbow pads but for just around town riding in think it would just be too much.

[Joe Bernard]

I'm sure it's been thought of. Coming up with body armor light and flexible enough to be rideable in without rendering it useless as armor would be a tough project.

 

Joe Bernard

Vallejo, CA.

On Wednesday, July 25, 2012 8:23:13 AM UTC-7, Joe K wrote:

I must say that, following a couple of injuries, I have wondered why
there's no promotion of knee, wrist and other joint protective gear.

Joe

On Jul 24, 10:08 pm, Robert Barr <rcba...@gmail.com> wrote:
> No way am I going to enter the helmet wars. I do want to say that one of
> the reasons that I follow this group is that its most
> regular contributors are collegial. Civil discourse is rare these days and
> it is good to read your collective thoughtful opinions. Today's Yehuda Moon
> is remarkably appropriate. Rick must be out there...
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 9:40 PM, Mike <mjawn...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > With broken collarbones it's not a matter of if, it's a matter of
> > when...
>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "RBW Owners Bunch" group.

> > To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.

> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to

> > rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

[robert zeidler]

As a hard core Libertarian I totally agree with this view. The
question that comes up, and this is why I choose to wear a helmet, is,
what if the rider has a fall, sustains a head injury, but knowing this
might happen, chose to go without?

What responsibility does that person bear for his/her medical care and
the subsequent bills?

And what is the difference, in terms of responsibility, between that
person and a person who chooses to drive a car while intoxicated, has
an accident, and is the only one hurt?

Or a person who knowingly and repeatedly inflicts self harm by
smoking, and or eating poorly?

And yet, all those who follow the rules are left to pick up the bill,
again and again, for those same individuals.

I'm surprised and happy to see this view come out of California, where
normally one is subjected to scolding over any individual
responsibility debate, and the state is always responsible for one's
happiness. Not a blanket statement, of course, but still.

RGZ

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.

> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.

[Peter Morgano]

I don't usually talk politics or religion with casual acquaintances since it can turn into a huge hornets nest but I am proud to live in a county where we look out for each other, whether the person is fat, or stupid or elderly or foreign.  I don't want to be in a county where some bureaucracy decides who deserves care and who does not. Individual responsibility just seems to be a buzz word for victimizing those who have the least among us (including the intellect to know they are going to hurt themselves).

[Toshi Takeuchi]

There's a new breed of cyclists growing up, at least in my household.
As you may know, CA requires people under 18 to wear a helmet. My kids
therefore, always wear a helmet, and one day I picked him up from
school on the triplet, but forgot to bring his helmet. He refused to
ride without the helmet and walked home (despite me encouraging him to
*gasp* ride uphill on the bike path at 5 mph with me and his sister
without a helmet)...

Toshi

[Matthew J]

> No way am I going to enter the helmet wars.

 

To be clear, I don't mean for any of my posts to argue yea or nay on the helmet debate.  Rather, my argument is Grant has a point when he says for better or worse many cyclists in the U.S. now believe helmets are as necessary for cycling as a bicycle.

 

[Brian Hanson]

I think the key point here is that it is, and should be an individual choice.  I am definitely in the psychological mindset camp of those who "feel safer" when I'm wearing protective clothes.  I feel this mainly when I'm on my motorcycle and one day choose the half helmet because it's nice out and I'm going to tool along the back roads, vs full leathers and full helmet.  I definitely ride more defensively when there are more risks to a fall.  

I don't appreciate those who tell us that we are stupid to not wear a helmet.  They are generally just hawking some marketing angle or repeating what "the authority" said to them.  If you had an accident and afterwards make it your life's work to keep others from enjoying what you got to do, what is so different about you and the thought police?  

Put another way, the same argument used for helmets could be used against cycling in general.  It involves the danger of going past the boundaries of normal human bipedal travel.  It involves whatever added danger you put into it.  If you race between cars on busy streets at 20mph and expect to put blame on your safety equipment when you get hurt, and furthermore tell everyone they are idiots to not wear said safety equipment even though they may just ride on vacant cow trails in the midwest that are lined with soft strawberry bushes and never travel at speeds higher than 6mph, I would have to question why people should pay attention to you.

Brian

Seattle, WA

[Steve Palincsar]

On Wed, 2012-07-25 at 15:12 -0700, Brian Hanson wrote:
>
> I don't appreciate those who tell us that we are stupid to not wear a
> helmet.

No more than I appreciate those who tell us we are stupid to wear one.

I am really tired of this.

[Mike]

As someone who works in an ER, if you're not gonna wear a helmet, make
sure you have a DNR in your medical file if that's your wish. It'll
save everyone a lot of trouble and stress.

--mike

[Steve Palincsar]

Maybe it might be more accurate to suggest that /all/ riders, regardless
of whether they wear helmets or no, have DNRs in their medical files.
The trouble and stress don't just exist re: the helmetless.

[Mike On A Bike]

If the best you can do is not resist the upstroke while spinning on a
descent, how can you possibly pull up while climbing a hill?

On Jul 24, 10:24 am, PATRICK MOORE <bertin...@gmail.com> wrote:
> When I climb those steep hills, I am very aware of pulling up quite
> hard to gain extra torque, something I can't do as well with clips and
> straps. I can feel the bike accelerate when pulling hard.

> >>> To view this discussion on the web visit
> >>>https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/vyCfIaWKJXwJ.
>

> --
> "When in Rome, do as they done in Milledgeville."
>
> Flannery O'Connor
>
> -------------------------
> Patrick Moore, Albuquerque, NM, USA
> For professional resumes, contact Patrick Moore, ACRWhttp://resumespecialties.com/index.html
> -------------------------

[Mike On A Bike]

I think Peter White's dictum for his group would be the best protocol
to follow, something along the lines of: "Unless you are sure you're
contributing something to the helmet debate that has never been
thought of before, keep it off the list".

On Jul 24, 10:08 pm, Robert Barr <rcba...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Mike]

>
> Maybe it might be more accurate to suggest that /all/ riders, regardless
> of whether they wear helmets or no, have DNRs in their medical files.
> The trouble and stress don't just exist re: the helmetless.

I can't believe Cyclofiend hasn't shut this thread down yet.

--mike

[Mike On A Bike]

It is quite strange how even with high-tech safety devices in a 1-2
ton protective steel cage there are still ~45,000 highway deaths a
year and nobody scolds anybody in the US of A about the much greater
risk of dying/getting maimed in a car crash. In a perfect world, more
people would ride and therefore have more respect for other riders
while driving (the Dutch effect) and this wouldn't be such a
horrendous/tragic issue. Smart & safe riding and driving are a better
solution than styrofoam.

http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=United+States+Traffic+Fatalities+2011

[PATRICK MOORE]

Try it. Use clipless. Report.

[Mike On A Bike]

Rocked SPD's for a little bit on my fixie a few years ago and hated
them, especially on longer rides. The inability to change position of
the foot is a deal breaker in and of itself and I didn't experience
any discernible increase in power. It brings to mind a Sheldon Brown
line (re: touring on a singlespeed), which goes something like "If
you're in a hurry to get somewhere, why are you on a bicycle?".

I would rather have my ride setup for maximum comfort and versatility
rather than gunning for a marginal increase in watts.

This feels a lot like unnecessary in-fighting though, when it's just
to each his own. The tone of that radio segment made me sad. Why can't
the great chain of being just happily revolve?

On Jul 25, 9:30 pm, PATRICK MOORE <bertin...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Try it. Use clipless. Report.
>

> > For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.

[jimD]

+1

[Peter Morgano]

Hey I can lighten things up a bit, who wants some free spd pedals??? These are the big hunka pedals here.

http://www.pricepoint.com/detail/16421-240_SHI457-3-Parts-65-Pedals/Mountain/Shimano-M545-MTB-SPD-Pedals-offerIN212SN1.htm?utm_source=Shoppingcom&utm_medium=datafeed&utm_campaign=FTP&zmam=3075515&zmas=1&zmac=15&zmap=16421&

 

I would say they have 500 miles on them and seriousl weigh over a lb. The spin nice but the spring holding the cleat needs to be greased every 100 miles or so which is annoying but it will let you know when it needs it by creaking like an old battleship.  Looking for the cost of shipping, 8 bucks or so, they have been in my desk at work for 8 months now and dont feel like haggling with the cost and thought I would send out some good karma.

[Matthew J]

> I can't believe Cyclofiend hasn't shut this thread down yet.

 

For all practical purposes, Grant Peterson is Rivendell Bicycle Works.  The thread is for fans of RBW to discuss things RBW. 

 

Grant Peterson wrote a book and has given interviews where he expressed problems not so much on the choice to wear helmets while riding bicycle, but what he sees as the exaggerated emphasis on the need to wear helmets at all times.

 

If we cannot discuss Grant Peterson's comments on the RBW site, where can we?

[Mike]

On Thursday, July 26, 2012 5:51:12 AM UTC-7, Matthew J wrote:

> I can't believe Cyclofiend hasn't shut this thread down yet.

 

For all practical purposes, Grant Peterson is Rivendell Bicycle Works.  The thread is for fans of RBW to discuss things RBW. 

 

Grant Peterson wrote a book and has given interviews where he expressed problems not so much on the choice to wear helmets while riding bicycle, but what he sees as the exaggerated emphasis on the need to wear helmets at all times.

 

If we cannot discuss Grant Peterson's comments on the RBW site, where can we?

You're not telling me something I don't know. I've been a part of this group for years now and historically helmet discussions have been considered off-topic. This particular discussion straddles a fine line because it was a tangent from Grant's radio appearance and book.

--mike 

[robert zeidler]

Please understand, it's not an opinion, it's a basis for a real life
discussion, unlike those folks in D.C. seem able to do.

And you already live in that country. I don't have any wealth, but
I'd like to think that if I were fortunate enough to feel comfortable
that the result of the necessary hard work and sacrifice wouldn't be
handed over to those who, freely and rightly, had no such ambitions.
Along the same lines, if I'm living a relatively existence and rarely
go to the doctor while everyone else down the block smokes, drinks,
parties, as is their right to do, why would I be happy about paying
more for health insurance, or furthermore, be required to purchase it
in the first place.

For sure, it's a bigger question that this, but if a person wants to
take the risk of not wearing a helmet and sustaining a head injury,
then why can't one also take the risk of going without health
insurance, or losing everything (and more), to fulfill one's
ambitions?

Again, not an opinion, but just a debate-able example. Not the place
to do it though. :)

[robert zeidler]

And have you noticed how kids always just buckle up when they get in
car? Pretty cool.

[Cyclofiend]

On Jul 25, 2012, at 5:45 PM, Mike wrote:
>
> I can't believe Cyclofiend hasn't shut this thread down yet.

ahhh.... you see what happens when I'm away from the stream for a day
or two (pesky all-day gigs.).... "Helmet Threads"... yikes.

As they say in the pubs, "TIME Gentlemen. Please!"

Set 'em down folks, and let's walk away from this one. I realize the
context from which this began, but all we're doing now is looking like
dogs on opposite sides of the fence. Hair a-standing and deep growls
getting louder.

There's really no reason to continue this, eh?

- Jim / Hmmm... my desk plaque sez "List Admin" / cyclofiend.com

[Cyclofiend]

On Jul 26, 2012, at 5:51 AM, Matthew J wrote:

> > I can't believe Cyclofiend hasn't shut this thread down yet.
>
> For all practical purposes, Grant Peterson is Rivendell Bicycle
> Works. The thread is for fans of RBW to discuss things RBW.
>
> Grant Peterson wrote a book and has given interviews where he
> expressed problems not so much on the choice to wear helmets while
> riding bicycle, but what he sees as the exaggerated emphasis on the
> need to wear helmets at all times.
>
> If we cannot discuss Grant Peterson's comments on the RBW site,
> where can we?

For the record, I think we do as good of job as possible in discussing
probably the most divisive issue which pops up on cycling lists.

But, it's easy to see the topic arc past what Grant wrote and devolve
into name calling.

I think it's a better practice, and it has been the practice in this
group, to maintain enough respect for everyone to drop subjects which
aren't getting solved rather than continue to push on them.

Helmet discussions get nasty and heated. Always. I thank everyone
who was contributing to this thread that it hasn't quite reached that
point, but don't think there's much more to say on the topic.

Thanks again!

- Jim / Cyclofiend.com / List Admin

[Toshi Takeuchi]

Yes, I agree, and I imagine my kids will always wear helmets when
skiing too because they always do so now in their lessons...

[RJM]

I listened to the piece and thought it was alright. It wasn't long enough though, and I thought the book had a lot more in it that wasn't touched on during the interview. 

 

This was brought up but I thought didn't get enough time:  A lot of people thing Grant is anti-racing, which from what I have read and heard doesn't seem to be the case.  If you are a racer...race and be happy you are competing. The problem lies in the fact that bike marketers and manufacturers are pushing the "racing" aspect of biking in dang near everything they sell.  It is a fringe element of cycling and should be treated as such. Heck, I was at a Trek bike shop the other day and was watching their TV, which was showing Trek's marketing videos.  All of it had to do with racing. It is a shame.  There isn't even a racing club anywhere near the area, so who are they marketing this stuff to?

 

It isn't like Rivs can't be ridden hard and fast either.  I ride mine quickly a lot, but I'm not pretending to be a racer trying out for a pro spot.

 

uly 23, 2012 2:03:20 PM UTC-5, Peter M wrote:

Good discussion, comments on the bottom of the page prove what an
asshole place NYC is to live....

http://www.wnyc.org/shows/bl/2012/jul/23/bicycling-101/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=%24%7Bfeed%7D&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+%24%7Bbl%7D+%28%24%7BBrian+Lehrer%7D%29