"Just Wrench" as next book would be great. Here's why...

[lungimsam]

Because Rivbike.com has the uncanny ability to put up videos on youtube regarding bike mechanics subjects that an "un-mechanic" like me can understand and perform on my bike.

 

I also really enjoyed the upkeep part of Just Ride.

 

So having a Just Wrench would be great. A repair manual, but without the neurotic level of repair dissection I see in some modern bike repair books these days.

Makes me feel like giving up before trying.

 

I am almost starting to feel like the same thing is happening in the world of wrenching as it is with racing.

Do I really need a 300$ repair stand, when I can just use my car's bike rack instead (or a rope and a tree?).

Will I really die if I get the torque specs a little off? OK, maybe I could see that with carbon.

I even read a repair book, that is recent and held in high esteem apparently, that called centerpulls "ancient technology", more than once.

 

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

Some people have mechanical aptitude and have no problem performing basic tasks to maintain a bicycle with little or no training. Others have no aptitude and break off 2 out of every 3 bolt heads every time they pick up an Allen wrench, even after considerable instruction and practice. A bike mechanic I know posts occasional "bike shop horrors" on Facebook or his blog - bikes that were creatively mangled, sometimes at great effort and expense, all to avoid paying a professional to do it correctly. We see the same phenomenon at HC. It's stupefying.

[Seth Vidal]

On Thu, Oct 4, 2012 at 10:12 AM, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery
<thil...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Some people have mechanical aptitude and have no problem performing basic tasks to maintain a bicycle with little or no training. Others have no aptitude and break off 2 out of every 3 bolt heads every time they pick up an Allen wrench, even after considerable instruction and practice. A bike mechanic I know posts occasional "bike shop horrors" on Facebook or his blog - bikes that were creatively mangled, sometimes at great effort and expense, all to avoid paying a professional to do it correctly. We see the same phenomenon at HC. It's stupefying.

You seem to have conflated a desire to learn and do it themselves with
cheapness.

Those are not the same thing.

Just b/c someone is not skilled at something initially and makes
mistakes does not mean their goal is to avoid expense.

The attitude you've just expressed is a common one I've encountered
from a number of people trained or experience in any sufficiently
complicated field.

Sometimes instead of thinking the person did this out of cheapness
some folks think they do it out of stupidity or out of malice.

It's still just as assumptive and incorrect.

-sv

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

True, I guess I can only presume the motives. Just so we are clear, I always encourage my customers to learn, I frequently loan out my tools, and I've given instruction to DIY types whenever I've been asked, all for free. Lighten up.

"Cheapness" may not be exactly the right word. More like fear of an unknown outcome. "My bike is making a funny noise. If I take it to the bike shop, they might charge me a fortune." Mostly people are pleasantly surprised that I can fix the problems they've been tolerating, maybe for years, with a $10 adjustment or with a basic tune up, etc.

By all means, learn to work on your bike. But also try to be mindful of your limitations. It's not always easy to know, of course, until its too late.

[Seth Vidal]

On Thu, Oct 4, 2012 at 10:59 AM, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery
<thil...@gmail.com> wrote:
> True, I guess I can only presume the motives. Just so we are clear, I always encourage my customers to learn, I frequently loan out my tools, and I've given instruction to DIY types whenever I've been asked, all for free. Lighten up.

I wasn't unlight - I was going on what you said:

"All to avoid paying a professional to do it correctly"

I'm glad you loan out your tools, I'm not sure I would be that
generous. Tools and time are not free. I don't expect the wrenches at
the shops near me to give out advice or instruction for free and
wouldn't ask that of them. I will ask for torque specs if they happen
to know them but only when I purchase something from them. I don't
think that's an unreasonable use of their specific knowledge.

If I want a lesson in how to do something properly then I'm willing to
pay the normal rate for an hour or so of their time. That seems fair
to me.
-sv

[Peter Morgano]

Lest we forget there though that Grant has said/written on more than one occasion that he dislikes doing wrenching on his bikes so someone else would have to write that book. I nominate the star in those videos, my wrenching/design hero Mark. Also, I have seen many many a kludged bike in NYC walking around and I bet it is part cheapness, part creativity and part ignorance. When in doubt I go to the Park Tools site but I am pretty mechanically inclined, if you arent and you dont have alot of cash you are best served finding a friend or getting info on a friendly shop. I believe Jim is a stand up guy but I know even in my hood some bike shops will charge you 30 bucks in shop labor to change a tire while others will do it for free if you buy the tube from them.

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[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

I should also clarify the Bike Shop Horrors are not usually your garden variety ham-fisted attempts to change a flat, true a wheel, adjust a derailleur, or install a bottle cage. One that I recall involved a scavenged handlebar, shimmed with PVC pipe, held together with a u-bolt and duct tape, hammered into a seat tube, to replace a missing seat post. Oddly enough, this monstrosity made it into my buddy's repair stand. After that much ingenuity, it's hard to fathom what compelled the guy to roll it into the shop for service.

[dougP]

Grant has also mentioned that his personal bike (I believe he was
referring to the proto Atlantis?) is the worst exammple of the Riv
staff bikes.

Many shops offer maintenance classes, from simple "flat fix" up to
complete bike assembly. These can be well worth the time & cost to
learn one's own limitations and gain confidence about basic bike
service.

I recently took the League of American Bicyclist's basic safety
class. One requirement was to take off the rear wheel, remove &
replace the tire & tube, inflate & re-install the wheel. I was
somewhat amazed at the level of difficulty this proved to be for a
surprising number of students. My observation is the bicycle is a
black box to a lot of people. Basic mechanical survival instruction
could increase the comfort level of many riders.

dougP

> >http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[ascpgh]

That's the nut of it. I don't think GP insists on riders trying things over their head or delving into bike repair as a means to save money or earn their chops as a cyclist, it's a more of an ethos.

I do my own work but I count myself one of those with whom the physical and mechanical stuff clicks. I am rebuilding an old house and it reminds me all the time how few people are tool savvy or confident about measuring and cutting a piece of wood yet alone many of the more ambitious construction tasks I do without introspection or hesitation in this pursuit.,

GP seems to be focussing on the desirability to overcome a lack of cyclo-mechanical confidence or that it is a weird zen practice involving sitar music and incense. I know my first steps toward wheel building was to buy Jobst Brandt's book after feeling like the guy holding that skill out as some unattainable eastern practice left me with the desire to prove that a big farce (he had no tensiometer; "tuned fingers"). Reminds me of the thread about an article title something like "the benefits of shop class". 

There is not enough self-reliance out there and the inability of the younger population, unaware of a "pre-internet" age, seldom appear to have introspective thought before tapping out and inquisition on the smart phone. Different from accumulating learning, seems like surmounting a task to get around it as an obstacle like a rock in the trail you avoided. I relish seeing representatives of that group in a local shop with loaner tools and stands actually surmounting the complexity of their hipster fixies and dumpster SSs, makes me feel better about the world.

Andy Cheatham

Pittsburgh.

On Thursday, October 4, 2012 1:02:41 PM UTC-4, dougP wrote

<...Basic mechanical survival instruction

[justin...@gmail.com]

Kent Peterson would be the man to do this. He recently started doing "Bike Talk" on his blog http://kentsbike.com as an homage to the great-soon-to-be-late-don't-get-bent-out-of-shape Car Talk. He offers some advice and I've tried to get him to do a series for the "New Home Wrench." Perhaps "Just Wrench" would be a better name. Things like "what should I grease?" stuff about cable stretch. Things that as a newbie are quite mysterious.

Even better would be a group website where folks can submit questions and a hive mind of like-minded folks could answer at their leisure.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

-Justin. Scheming in Philly.

[dougP]

This idea has merit. As mentioned a couple of times above, videos of
some of the more common & universal tasks (e.g., flat fix) would be
ideal. The dreaded "...something's clicking back there..." would be
another worthy subject. I think if someone were interested enough to
look it up on-line & submit a problem, they would be willing to study
it enough to post something sufficiently descriptive to at least ask
follow up questions.

It might also help people understand what are simple problems of the
quarter-turn-of-the-barrel-adjuster variety and when to seek
professional advice.

dougP

On Oct 6, 6:00 am, justinaug...@gmail.com wrote:
> Kent Peterson would be the man to do this. He recently started doing "Bike Talk" on his bloghttp://kentsbike.comas an homage to the great-soon-to-be-late-don't-get-bent-out-of-shape Car Talk. He offers some advice and I've tried to get him to do a series for the "New Home Wrench." Perhaps "Just Wrench" would be a better name. Things like "what should I grease?" stuff about cable stretch. Things that as a newbie are quite mysterious.

[Cyclofiend Jim]

Kent always speaks great truths with an economy of words.  That's great that he's doing that.

Additionally, the Park Tools website has a lot of this info currently available.  Not necessarily videos, but good, clear steps for the most part.

http://www.parktool.com/blog/repair-help

 And, of course on anything that can be reasonably taken apart with common bicycle tools (and some deeper delving, as well), AASHTA*

Wrenching is funny business. At one point in my life, I "tightened up my loose spokes" with a crescent wrench, and the result, which would not even fit into the frame of my bike, caused a good deal of chuckling when the bike was sheepishly carried into the local shop.  I once used pretty much the whole roll of solder trying to attach metal rods to a piece of thick plastic for a science experiment in grade school.  (Now, the fact that a youngster should be able to gain unsupervised access a soldering iron at that age should say less about my parents and more about my inventiveness in beginning projects.)  I clearly had the desire, but not the skills. 

Luckily, at some point, I did buy a Sloan's manual, and had the disposable time to mis-adjust my way to proper setup, and brought enough tools along on most rides to retorque loosening bolts.  Along the way, I pulled apart cameras (mechanical ones) computers and electronic devices (mostly air back then, anyway) and met a few folks that were handy with tools.

I gained a finer appreciation for that point when you're about to do something really stupid.  I learned that you can force things - some materials more than others.  I dug deeper into my bicycles and acquired uniquely specific tools (Shimano 600 headset wrenches, as an example) that did only one odd thing.  Pin tools.  Third Hands.

But, I was lucky to fall under the tutelage of a couple good mechanics.  One was a bike mechanic, the other a computer guy.  They were methodical and focused.  They taught me how to troubleshoot things.  They taught me that adding leverage to a bad approach made things much worse, very quickly. They taught me to use the right tool for the job. When I worked in the bike industry, I got to interact frequently with the head mechanics at our stores, and watched a couple of them as they worked on my bike (only let a couple of them do actual work on my bike...) when they noticed something that wasn't quite right.

It happened slowly.  And I didn't really even realize the extent of the effect until I was helping my dad on his boat and ended up fixing the bilge pump - finding the missing bolt which had fallen inside the pump and would have crunched the internals if it had kicked on.  My dad, who had been moderately in favor of just using the other 5 and not worrying about the sixth, gave me a funny look and asked when I had become such a mechanic. 

Which I really didn't think I was, and in my opinion, compared to folks who actually do that work day in and day out, I most definitely am not.

But, that led me to believe that it's mostly about approach.  Parts off.  Laid down in order.  Notes when you need them. Tools back in the rack when you aren't actively using them.   Steady pressure. Consistent steps.  Thinking it through before you touch a tool. Being present and focused when using the tools. If things get frustrating, setting things down and stepping away.  Returning only when you are calm and focused.

It sounds kind of ponderous and boring, but it's really a practice.  An approach to problem solving.  And you faster and more efficient at a lot of the steps. 

For me, I've never wanted my bike to be a mystery - the technical end of it has always been fascinating.  I also depend upon my bicycle to work properly under some very stressful conditions.  I do bet my life and bones on it working properly. For me, that's meant me or a reasonably trusted party working on my bicycle.

Some people just aren't drawn to that.  Or they think they should be but don't have the patience.  There's nothing wrong with being in the "bigger hammer" crowd, but it is helpful if you admit it to yourself before you go at a misadjusted derailleur with a pair of vise grips.

Or more likely, they are kind of cursed by the way things get fixed now - most bicycle repairs are the mechanical equivalent of a "board swap" - where you remove the whole circuit board because there's one bad connection on it. It would take too long to troubleshoot to find the faulty connection, and since everything is microprinted connections, there's little chance of actually redoing the work.

That is one of the reasons I've ended up enjoying Rivendell's approach to things.  If you have to get all confusing and use multiple gears, then you ought to be able to take the bits apart when they wear out.  I've always felt that it's a shame to complicate a simple system - whether fly reels, bicycles, shifters, cameras, shovels or lawn mowers.  A good simple tool is always an asset, especially when it only requires simple tools to maintain.

- Jim

Jim Edgar / cyclofiend.com


*since a few folks didn't know this term last time I used it - "As Always, Sheldon Has The Answer" - a good place to start is here: http://sheldonbrown.com/articles.html
I miss him.

[dougP]

Jim:

 

As always, thanks for the thoughtful discussion.  Many of the observations regarding thinking things through before pickup any tools, not forcing things, etc., are universal.  I've always enjoyed working on my own bikes & those of friends, etc., and have gotten used to a certain baseline level of quality in components.  As members of this group, we have a certain appreciation for stuff that works well, even in fairly basic grades.  Components that are decently made, work well and are intended to be maintained and adjusted.  These things make life good.

 

Recently I've been working through an inventory of cast-off bikes (donations from police depts, big box store returns, etc.) at a local charity.  These are typically not well made in the first place and are equipped with unlabeled components.  Most of the fasteners are some form of steel (they rust instantly) but are quite soft & require a gentle touch.  In short, they are meant to sell (in the $100-$200 range) but never be worked on.  Needless to say, I would starve as a flat rate mechanic working on these.  There is, however, a certain challenge to bringing these up to functionality, and satisfaction in doing so.  Fortunately I control the pace & volume of my work and so am able to quit when I've had my fill of wrenching.

 

A bonus is that it keeps me from screwing around with my Atlantis. 

 

dougP