Berthold Fender Installation- It went so smooth.. till it didn't.. sheesh

[Kelly Sleeper]

So the fenders hung on the garage wall all season long looking sweet and nightmarish all at the same time.   Then came the loose bolt on the sks fenders and I had them off.  (should have just put them back on and gone on)   So figured now was the time.   I grab the sheet metal shears and cut the rear fender to fit between the chain stays.  install the spacer and bolt off the sks fenders and then install the rear fender stays.  Ahh how sweet.  But then I didn't have clippy do dad for the brake bridge to support the fender.  Well I did have them but they were all to small.  So an hour drive and 5 bike shops later I find a silver mount that's too big.  Nothing a hammer, vice and pliers won't fix.  Now the rear looks good and on test ride doesn't squeak or rattle.   Now the easy part the front fender.

Opps did I say the easy part.  Well that is true except that... I mount it and the eyebolt that goes in the fork bridge is too long and rubs the tire.  Lets see where is my hack saw... got it.   three bolt on cut take off all is good.  Mount everything up .. tighten it up.. and looks great.. then I realize that I can't get the tire off anymore.  I have the silver side pulls and the fender is too high.  Just the washer and rubber space weren't enough to let the fender sit below the brakes enough.  so take it all apart.   Call Peter White order new eyebolt.  Put bike back together... oops not many threads on the stud from the silver after it goes through the eyebolt.   Oh well... the alignment is good.. once the tire is on it all rides well... 

So back from test ride and all stayed in place including the beautiful full leather mud flaps.   

So along with the new eye bolt I had to make a worthwhile charge on the credit card.. so ordered a fender mount 4d lite.  Then and I showed great restraint I almost ordered a large rando bag and marks rack... sheesh.. do you realize I could have dropped 500 bucks just to change the way the bike looks without ever adding any practical benefit???? So close to doing it.. nope.. 

So in the end since I save so much money by my self control and needing bar tape anyway I ordered a lugged stem.   

sure is nice to save.

Kelly

[Minh]

Kelly,

I laughed reading this. I did my first metal fender installation last
winter (after many an SKS install) and felt the same way. I think we
forget that metal fenders at one point were only done by shops that
actually custom fit them to bikes. As you have shown, while fenders
today are mostly universal fit they still require some amount of
tweaking to get perfect.

BTW what bike is this for? You don't have a bolt-hole on the
underside of the bridge for the rear fender to mount into? And how
about some pictures, i'm already thinking about some berthouds to
replace my VO ones (which are fine, but hey can't leave well enough
alone)...

[Thomas Lynn Skean]

I heard many stories, even from people working for bike shops, about the difficulty... well, I kind of assumed they meant "tedium"... of mounting metal fenders. I always suspected that it wouldn't be too tedious compared to putting on SKS chromoplastic ones, which I had done several different times on a few different bikes. But I knew it was going to be trouble to get them right. The universal theme of "trouble" that ran through every story about mounting metal fenders literally kept me from pursuing the notion for months.

 

Then came the sale. They fenders I had already thought were pretty much what I wanted went on sale for less than half of their already decent normal price. So I got them. I mounted them. I could either use an L-bracket or a daruma on the front. I chose the L-bracket. I didn't have a theaded hole under the rear brake bridge, so I used an L-bracket-with-fender-clip arrangement in the back. I had to drill a hole so that I could attach the front fender to the underside of my rack. I had to find spacers for both there and the space between the kickstand-plate and the rear fender. I had to drill two holes for my fender-mounted light. All the other holes were pre-drilled.

 

I found the fenders were only marginally harder to put on than the SKS chromoplastics. A guy who worked at a bike shop who saw a picture of my bike right after I put them on said "You got the fender line just right!". He was actually impressed.

 

I thought... "I am invincible!"

 

Of course, that's what a guy said in some Bond movie shortly before he was frozen by a flood of liquid nitrogen or something.

 

So very quickly, and ever since then, I have considered myself extremely lucky to have needed no trips to any store, no more ordering, and no waiting to be able to actually use my new fenders the same day I took off the old ones. And I also quickly acquired two more sets of those particular fenders, for I knew that they'd wear out eventually (perhaps soon, since I must have done something wrong in installing them!) and/or that I might want them for a second bike at some point. I became so certain that I dodged a deadly bullet by using those particular fenders on that particular frame on that particular day that, when the time came to decide what kind of bike to get as bike #2, I actually considered those fenders as a (small) factor in favor of getting a second frame identical to the one I already have.

 

You'll have to take my word for it that it wasn't a particularly important factor. Because I am in fact getting a second frame identical to the one I already have. And that I am much less worried about installing the fenders as a result. Though trust me, I'm not looking forward to it. I'm not that lucky. Fender-mounting is really tedious!

 

Yours,

Thomas Lynn Skean

 

[Rex Kerr]

Sounds like hammer VO fender my install...  everything went on perfectly... even the holes I drilled to mount them to the bottom of the constructeur rack lined up perfectly!  So... I decide that I wanted a fender mounted tail light (there's the savings!) to finish off the aesthetics of it all... drilled perfectly spaced, beautiful holes... go to put the light on, and then I noticed that the body of the light flares out and hits the fender stay... can't be screwed on where I drilled... :-(  So, I had to ovalize my holes and they're now ugly.  Even though only I know they're ugly, I'm still unhappy about the outcome. 

[Rex Kerr]

On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 1:43 PM, Rex Kerr <rex...@gmail.com> wrote:

Sounds like hammer VO fender my install...  

 

Wow... not sure what language I was typing...   :-)  I rephrased the sentence, and didn't go back to make sure it still worked! :-)

"Sounds like my hammered VO fender install..."

There, that resembles English!

[Michael Hechmer]

Kelly, thank you, thank you, thank you for the honesty of your post.  As both an amateur mechanic and amateur woodworker I have been repeatedly snookered by "expert" instructions that lulled me into thinking something would be straightforward and doable, only to be reduced to speaking anglo-saxon.  Last night I installed a pair of the tektro canti brakes and discoverd that the instructions failed to mention that only a mutant with four hands would find this straight forward.

I have bikes with plastic, aluminum, and steel fenders but I wouldn't ever again install fenders without both rereading the instructions and remembering that it will be a PIA.

michael,

keep the rubber side down and the sunny side up

[Steve Palincsar]

Actually, installing Honjo fenders is pretty straightforward - there's
nothing really 'clever' or 'complex' about it - but it's slow and can't
be hurried. Reading the instructions about 20 times for a week or two
ahead of time, and working on visualizing what goes on helps.
Understanding on a deep-down level that it simply cannot be hurried or
sped up helps the most.

One. Step. At. A. Time. First install. Mark. Remove. Drill.
Reinstall. Mark the next. Remove. Drill. Reinstall. Mark. Remove.
Drill. Reinstall. Breathe.

Once you get your mind wrapped around the pace - the process as a whole,
but especially the pace - it's not really much of a pain in the a$$. At
least, not until your hand cramps and you drop the parts to the draw
bolt in the grass and can't find them again. It helps a lot to spread
some cloth under where you're working, because your hand is almost
certainly going to cramp and you almost certainly are going to
drop /something/.

The instructions on the VO and Jitensha web sites are pretty good. So,
too, are the articles published in BQ.

[Kelly Sleeper]

Ok all this install uninstall breath stuff... they make 5 lb sludge hammers for that and the aggression is relieved quicker. :)

Kelly

[Kelly Sleeper]

Photos here.. ya bike is dirty 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/tksleeper/sets/72157627561999537/

Kelly

[Steve Palincsar]

On Fri, 2011-09-16 at 16:37 -0700, Kelly Sleeper wrote:
> Ok all this install uninstall breath stuff... they make 5 lb sludge
> hammers for that and the aggression is relieved quicker. :)

That is not the path to success, Grasshopper. And besides, as the song
says http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVtC9FYUaas

[Jim Cloud]

I think the relative difficulty of mounting aluminum fenders varies
from one bike to another. I acquired my Honjo fenders before the
YouTube existed, and I used a photograph in a book to get the fender
struts positioned correctly (a photo of a very cherry Rene Herse
Randonneuse bike in the book "Bicycling A Guiness Superlative Guide",
on page 77). I'd previously mounted a set of Lefol fenders on my
Paramount P-15 back in the day (photos here:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/37964304@N05/sets/72157627672432684/), so
I had some experience with the process.

When I recently transferred the fenders to my Rivendell Road Standard,
things got much more "interesting". I mounted the fenders using the
stainless steel sliding bridge bracket on the rear fender. The
installation went well and proceeded without any real problems.
Later, however, I had a vexing problem with the rear fender rattling.
I bent the stays trying to subdue the rattling with little effect.
Finally, I used the fender mounting tap on the bottom of the brake
bridge to secure the rear fender. Rattling gone....

I think aluminum fenders are very attractive, but they're not quite as
utilitarian as some of the various plastic fenders IMHO.

Jim Cloud
Tucson, AZ

[Earl Grey]

Yep. Your bike is dirty, and your garage is a real mess. ;)

Love the look of the Berthoud flap and hardware.

Gernot "I don't see no dirt, time for new glasses?" Huber

[Earl Grey]

> Mark. Remove. Drill. Reinstall. Mark the next.

That sums it up. I don't find it tedious, but it ain't fast. Think of
it as meditation and you'll be all right. And the Winter 2011 BQ
article *is* excellent. I found the bit on how to massage the fender
line especially helpful (bend the fender edges apart to decrease
fender radius, push edges together to increase radius).

I have had very little trouble with 2.5 VO alu fender installations
(installed on two bikes, then moved one set to a third bike), but all
three bikes had fender mounts on the brake bridge facing the hub. On
the first one I didn't quite drill the bolt hole in the center and had
to ovalize slightly. Take the BQ advice, use a punch or nail to mark
the spot, start drilling with a small bit (2-3mm) and work your way up
to 5mm. Next time I will drill the 3mm hole from the inside of the
fender, but drill the final 5mm hole from the outside. That way you
minimize the chance of slipping for the initial hole, but get the burr
from the big hole on the inside of the fender where it doesn't show.

Gernot

[Ken Freeman]

One point: Do not do anything involving bicycles and fasteners over grass.  Usually if (WHEN!)

you drop one it will become buried under all the grass and not findable.  Then you're faced with 

replacing a usually unique bolt or washer (such as something on a Campy or Shimano part) that

may or may not have a thread known to man or a known thread with a uniquely small bolt head.

Either way getting a workable replacement can become a major Internet search (ordering a 

Campy bolt) or fabrication process (improvising a Shimano part) that is at least as challenging 

as riding that century you were planning for two days hence.

Chasing running bolts and washers across basement and garage floors is greatly preferable to 

replacing parts lost in the grass.

Beyond that, Steve is right about keeping your yoga and meditation up to date and making bike 

work a meditative exercise.  Shaking fronds of the correct mix of field grasses in the appropriate

directions while mutterring incantations should help a lot, too.  Make sure the spirits will help you.

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Ann Arbor, MI USA

[Minh]

Kelly,

Thanks for the pictures, i have some VO mudflaps that i've been
meaning to install and was trying to visualize how low on the front to
go! looking good.

[Kelly Sleeper]

The low front is great on the road .. wet roads especially great... however it does drag the grass when I cut t through fields or yards or even bounce off a curb.

Kelly

[Ken Freeman]

Alex Wetmore had (has?) a site on his touring tweaks, featuring DIY mudflaps.  His reasoning is that a flap blocks more water from soaking your feet, BB, crank, and chain, the lower it's bottom extends.  So, as low as you can, as long as any contact with the ground is tolerable.

On Sun, Sep 18, 2011 at 10:50 AM, Kelly Sleeper <tksl...@gmail.com> wrote:

The low front is great on the road .. wet roads especially great... however it does drag the grass when I cut t through fields or yards or even bounce off a curb.

Kelly

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[Steve Palincsar]

On Sun, 2011-09-18 at 07:29 -0400, Ken Freeman wrote:
> One point: Do not do anything involving bicycles and fasteners over
> grass. Usually if (WHEN!)
> you drop one it will become buried under all the grass and not
> findable. Then you're faced with
> replacing a usually unique bolt or washer (such as something on a
> Campy or Shimano part) that
> may or may not have a thread known to man or a known thread with a
> uniquely small bolt head.
> Either way getting a workable replacement can become a major Internet
> search (ordering a
> Campy bolt) or fabrication process (improvising a Shimano part) that
> is at least as challenging
> as riding that century you were planning for two days hence.
>

If you've got to work outdoors (and I usually do) it helps to spread a
large cloth under the bike to catch what you drop. Because you
certainly are going to drop something sooner or later, and Ken is right,
learn from his experience rather than yours.

>