New 650B conversion of a 1984 Miyata 912, and a foray into tubeless

[William]

I'm in the midst of a 650B conversion that I'm pretty excited about.  I've acquired a 1984 Miyata 912, and it's getting resurrected.  The major enhancement in my eyes is that I'll be converting it from a solid road bike that can take 700x25c tires without fenders, into a bike that can take 650x38B tires with fenders.  This conversion has a couple new aspects for me.  The clearance at the forks and the seatstays was wide enough for Hetres, but it was cozy down at the chainstays.  I researched a little through the various forums and on flickr and got my courage up to crush the chainstays a little bit to make some extra room.  That worked great, and I'll go at it again if I actually decide to run Hetres.  For now it'll be Soma B-Lines.  

The other highlights are that I'll be running the new, lighter weight Velocity A23 650B rims, exclusively available from Longleaf in New Hampshire.  Those rims, along with some advice from Anthony at Longleaf has got me convinced to give tubeless a try.  I'm a little freaked out by the concept, and I'm nervous that I'll make a mess of the whole thing, but at the same time I'm excited to learn something new.  Finally, this bike will be the home for a Sugino compact double that I beautified as my first bike part polishing project.  It was a 52/42/30 130/74mm crankset, that I've converted to a chainguard/42/26.  

This bike is tagged to become my new commute bike.  I've been using the Bombadil for my daily commute.  That commute involves bike on the roof of the car in the morning (carpool), and then a bike/BART commute home in the evening.  The ride home from BART is 2 miles, 600ft of climbing.  The Bomba is obviously smooth, rugged, and reliable.  The shortcomings are that the Bombadil is heavy for the roof rack, heavy for BART steps, and heavy for the 600ft climb, not to mention valuable to be subjected to 30 miles of freeway roofrackage every morning.  This Miyata will essentially be everything a Bleriot or a Betty Foy would have been for me.  Hopefully I can have it running by next week.  

pics show some of the progress:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/45758191@N04/sets/72157629709054752/ 

[Michael Hechmer]

Sounds exciting.  I have an 84 Trek 620 that I have considered for conversion, but have never gotten up the courage or $$.  For now, I've taken off the fenders, which gives me good clearance for JBs.  Keep us posted on how this goes.

Michael

[William]

For me the big deal is BB height before and after.  Plan it out and try to keep it at or above 260mm.  This bike measured 265 with 700x20 tires.  If I went to 650x32, it would drop me 7mm lower into the danger zone.  650x38 drops me 1mm (plus any tire sag), so it should be perfecto.  

[Kenneth Stagg]

Interestingly enough for me the idea was to get lower than that -
closer to the 250mm of the Mariposa. I didn't quite make it but
between the drop I did achieve and the reduced trail the handle of my
(now departed) Heron Road was wonderfully light compared to the same
bike with 700x28's.

-Ken

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[Kevin Mulcahy]

You're going to commute on Pari-Motos?

Kevin
Chicago, IL

[William]

" For now it'll be Soma B-Lines. "

[Steve Palincsar]

On Mon, 2012-05-21 at 13:54 -0700, William wrote:
> " For now it'll be Soma B-Lines. "
>
>

but depending on the roads you ride and how flush you feel, it wouldn't
be totally crazy to commute on Pari Motos. I rode them last year on
numerous rides including gravel roads, got 1600 miles or thereabouts
from the back tire. That's better, and they're less expensive, than
some of the people who commute on racing bikes get on their 23mm tires.

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[William]

The Pari Motos in the pictures on my flickr are on the wheels of my A Homer Hilsen at the moment.  I pulled a wheel to use as a clearance gauge for the stays.  The Hetres in the pictures are on the wheels of my Bombadil.  The Soma B-Lines are the tires I intend to use tubeless on this bike.  

The subtext of your question sounds to me that you think Pari Motos are too light fragile flat-prone and short-lived for commuting.  I've found all the above to be true.  I've gotten a puncture on almost every long ride I've done on Pari Motos.  They are currently on my brevet bike with Foss Innertubes, which I hope will give me better luck.  Some say that tubeless is an excellent way to reduce the frequency of punctures, and I'm also eager to see that for myself.  

On Monday, May 21, 2012 12:56:19 PM UTC-7, Kevin Mulcahy wrote:

[William]

I agree.  One should be able to commute on Pari Motos, but my Pari Moto experience has been nothing short of spooky.  It's not uncommon for me to go years between flats on the road, but on Pari Motos, it's almost every ride.  I don't ride a whole lot, probably in the neighborhood of 5000 miles per year.  So I put em on, get a few flats, get annoyed and switch out to something else.  Then I want to go light again, and I put them back on, get a few more flats, and switch them back out.  

> rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.

[Jim M.]

On Monday, May 21, 2012 2:14:35 PM UTC-7, William wrote:

Some say that tubeless is an excellent way to reduce the frequency of punctures, and I'm also eager to see that for myself.  

Tubeless are great. I haven't had a flat in four years with tubeless on my mountain bike. Two things about set up: a compressor helps a lot, and soapy water on the bead will help them inflate. Not the cheapest compressors that will inflate beach balls and air mattresses; you want something with a tank, which will probably run $80 to $90.

jim m
wc ca

[William]

Thanks for that tip.  I'll probably do the wheelbuild and the tire installation at the bike shop where I used to work.  That'll give me access to a burly compressor.

[Joe Bunik]

Or, a neighbor like Jim ;-)

New business opportunity:
Mather's Filling Station

=- Joe Bunik
Walnut Creek, CA

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[Steve Palincsar]

On Mon, 2012-05-21 at 14:25 -0700, William wrote:
> I agree. One should be able to commute on Pari Motos, but my Pari
> Moto experience has been nothing short of spooky. It's not uncommon
> for me to go years between flats on the road, but on Pari Motos, it's
> almost every ride. I don't ride a whole lot, probably in the
> neighborhood of 5000 miles per year. So I put em on, get a few flats,
> get annoyed and switch out to something else. Then I want to go light
> again, and I put them back on, get a few more flats, and switch them
> back out.

You think there's any chance you've got something sharp embedded in the
tires that keeps giving you the same flat over and over again?

[William]

Yeah, good idea, but no.  It's always something different that I'll find in there.  Thorn this time, wire next time, glass the time after that.  Each time I'd put the tires on, use them for short rides for a few weeks, get my confidence back up, and then at mile 85 of a 200k there I'll be with a flat.  Easily fixed and easily diagnosed, but still annoying, since it practically never happens with any other tire.  

[RonaTD]

On May 21, 2:56 pm, Kevin Mulcahy <kpmulc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> You're going to commute on Pari-Motos?

I've been regularly commuting on Pari Motos for almost two years now,
with two flats total. 9-10 miles each way, suburban streets, paved
bike path, and city streets. Plus a 600k solo involving a lot of
gravel and a few brevets. I have no qualms recommending them for
commuting unless you ride in an urban jungle or where there are
goatheads.

Ted Durant
Milwaukee, WI, USA

[Patrick in VT]

On May 21, 5:42 pm, William <tapebu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks for that tip.  I'll probably do the wheelbuild and the tire
> installation at the bike shop where I used to work.  That'll give me access
> to a burly compressor.

a compressor definitely helps, but I've had good luck with a track
pump and soapy water (rims are UST though, so that probably helped
seating). it's a simple process and shouldn't be messy at all if the
tire and rim work together. just don't bug out if they don't seal up/
hold pressure right away. If the sidewalls on the b-lines are porous,
it might take a day or two for the sealant to do its thing.

I can't imagine using tubes again on my MTB. it's just a better way
to roll.

[William]

The thing that I'm not clear on is what actually is happening to the sealant goo?  Is it hardening into a rubber coating?  Is the entire inside of the tire and rimstrip coated?  So when you remove the tire when it's worn out, you are destroying that seal by ripping it apart.  What about the puddle of extra sealant at the end?  If you leave that pooled in the bottom, does that make an offcenter lump that shakes the workstand when you spin the wheel, same as a reflector?  I'd hate that.  Or does it stay liquid and slosh around forever?  Or does it magically go away?  If I do mount tires again, I need more sealant, right?  At some point I imagine the weight of a few sealing jobs could exceed the weight of a tube.  Is that crazy talk?

[Allingham II, Thomas J]

Stupid (or at least uninformed) question: What's the advantage of tubeless?

---

From: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com [mailto:rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of William
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2012 4:38 PM
To: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [RBW] Re: New 650B conversion of a 1984 Miyata 912, and a foray into tubeless

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[William]

I've had numerous people tell me that once you try tubeless you never go back.  The highlights according to them have been ride quality, flat resistance and light weight.  I think the theory is your tires are much more supple because there's less material holding the air in.  I don't quite get where the flat resistance comes from in terms of punctures, unless the goo stays gooey and it's kind of a self-sealing thing.  I think pinch flats become nearly impossible.  Light weight I think is something like 80-100g of savings.  

On Tuesday, May 22, 2012 1:38:57 PM UTC-7, Pudge wrote:

Stupid (or at least uninformed) question: What's the advantage of tubeless?

---

From: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com [mailto:rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of William

Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2012 4:38 PM

To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com

Subject: [RBW] Re: New 650B conversion of a 1984 Miyata 912, and a foray into tubeless

The thing that I'm not clear on is what actually is happening to the sealant goo?  Is it hardening into a rubber coating?  Is the entire inside of the tire and rimstrip coated?  So when you remove the tire when it's worn out, you are destroying that seal by ripping it apart.  What about the puddle of extra sealant at the end?  If you leave that pooled in the bottom, does that make an offcenter lump that shakes the workstand when you spin the wheel, same as a reflector?  I'd hate that.  Or does it stay liquid and slosh around forever?  Or does it magically go away?  If I do mount tires again, I need more sealant, right?  At some point I imagine the weight of a few sealing jobs could exceed the weight of a tube.  Is that crazy talk?

On Tuesday, May 22, 2012 1:10:25 PM UTC-7, Patrick in VT wrote:

On May 21, 5:42 pm, William <tapebu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks for that tip.  I'll probably do the wheelbuild and the tire
> installation at the bike shop where I used to work.  That'll give me access
> to a burly compressor.

a compressor definitely helps, but I've had good luck with a track
pump and soapy water (rims are UST though, so that probably helped
seating).  it's a simple process and shouldn't be messy at all if the
tire and rim work together.  just don't bug out if they don't seal up/
hold pressure right away.  If the sidewalls on the b-lines are porous,
it might take a day or two for the sealant to do its thing.

I can't imagine using tubes again on my MTB.  it's just a better way
to roll.

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[PATRICK MOORE]

If this is a stupid question, count me in. I'd like to know more,
mostly 'cuz uv goatheads. Can someone with experience itemize the
Pro's and Con's?

In particular: I used Slime in regular tubes and found it horrible: it
would seal most, but not all, goathead punctures; but if a bigger
sharpie got into the tube -- say, a nail -- then, watch out: slime
spray mess SNAFU. And try cleaning and patching a be-Slimed tube. Some
Slime clones are better, but not enough better, for me, anyway.

What is required for tubeless? Can I use it with my 44 mm wide SnoCat
SLs with 2 dozen cutout holes? See: http://tinyurl.com/chrqaj7

[David Yu Greenblatt]

I am just getting back into tubeless after a long hiatus, and I am no expert. In the past month I got a new 29er MTB with tubeless wheels (the rims on my old MTB were not tubeless compatible) and I also mounted Hetres on a new wheelset that has Stan's rims using Stan's tape and Stan's sealant. My understanding is that some of the sealant forms a solid layer of latex on the inside of the tire and some stays liquid. Eventually the liquid will evaporate, but it does not leave a heavy lump of latex in the tire in my experience. You may have to add more Stan's to your tires once or twice per year to maintain the liquid flat-sealing component. I think Stan's sealant is latex particles suspended in an ammonia solution with some secret ingredients.

I have not had any problems with my tubeless Hetres so far, but I don't have many miles on them yet. One tip for mounting with a floor pump is to try to seat the beads of the tire as peripherally as possible on the shoulders on the rim by pinching and pulling and lifting with your thumbs before you start pumping air through the valve. 

I am interested in tubeless Pari-Motos since in theory that would maintain the lightweight and supple qualities of the tire while improving flat resistance significantly. However I don't think I can safety try using my new wheelset with sub-350 gram Stan's rims because I have heard they have a 40 PSI upper limit. I am hoping that it may be possible with the new Pacenti or Velocity A23 rims.

- David G, Madison WI

[Patrick in VT]

On May 22, 6:23 pm, David Yu Greenblatt

<david.yu.greenbl...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I am interested in tubeless Pari-Motos since in theory that would maintain
> the lightweight and supple qualities of the tire while improving flat
> resistance significantly. However I don't think I can safety try using my
> new wheelset with sub-350 gram Stan's rims because I have heard they have a
> 40 PSI upper limit. I am hoping that it may be possible with the new
> Pacenti or Velocity A23 rims.>

Let us know how it goes if you try the Pari-Moto tubeless. those have
a very thin/supple sidewall and find they can get a little squirrely
at lower pressures if pushed hard - I'd be concerned about that tire
folding or burping air if I ran it tubeless at a pressure I like. I
think I probably just prefer stiffer sidewalls (not necessarily UST
stiff, but stiffer) for tubeless applications.

[Patrick in VT]

On May 22, 4:47 pm, William <tapebu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The highlights according to them have been ride quality, flat
> resistance and light weight.

and traction - with tubeless, you can run very low pressures without
the same risk of pinch flats, which gives superior traction on loose,
uneven terrain/dirt. that's why it's so popular with mountain bikers.
it's also the reason why cyclocrossers love tubulars.

but yeah, for road use, ride quality and flat resistance would be the
key benefits.

I actually just got back from a MTB ride and happened to spray a bit
of Stans after clipping a rock. nice little 3mm cut ...sealed right
up. neat.

[PATRICK MOORE]

How low can you go with tubeless in 2" tires? I regularly go down to
12 with my Big Apples -- have gone lower inadvertently -- with no
pinches or creep.

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[Jim M.]

On Tuesday, May 22, 2012 4:57:28 PM UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote:

How low can you go with tubeless in 2" tires? I regularly go down to
12 with my Big Apples -- have gone lower inadvertently -- with no
pinches or creep.

I go 10 to 15 psi lower with tubeless than tubed, so that should take you down to negative 3 psi.

But seriously folks, ride quality, flat resistance, and traction are all better in my experience. 4 years of off-road riding with no flats makes me wish that road tubeless would advance faster than it has. I've never run over a nail, but I've run over plenty of goatheads. The hole seals up around the goathead and you can remove them at your leisure. No pinch flats. There is much less sealant than with slime tubes. I've heard stories of riders hitting big bumps and having the tire burp out sealant, but that's never happened to me. With Stan's, most of the sealant stays liquid, so, in answer to one question, you do not get a lump of congealed goo in the tire. It evaporates eventually, and then you add more sealant. With off-road use, I wear out the tire long before dried sealant adds significant weight. If you bash your way through rock gardens and put a big tear in the sidewall, Stan's won't seal, but if I'm going through terrain like that, I carry a spare tube and a boot.

jim m
wc ca

 

[William]

negative 3 psi would be EPIC cushy!

[PATRICK MOORE]

I like the sound of the stuff. So, to repeat my earlier question: tell
me (y'all): can you convert any standard for-tube rim and tire combo
to tubeless with off the shelf kit? I'd be particularly interested in
converting 23 mm tires on narrow 19 mm outside width rims, and
aforementioned 60mm+ Big Apples on 44 mm SnoCat SLs.

If "yes" to either, please point me to the appropriate product website.

Thanks.

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[David Yu Greenblatt]

Patrick,

No, you cannot convert any tire and rim combo to tubeless.

The gold standard for tubeless is UST which stands for Universal Standard for Tubeless:

http://www.mavic.com/en/technology/rims/UST

A UST rim and tire combo is guaranteed to work without a tube, and sealant is optional. I used them for MTB riding and racing for years and they are great for all the reasons that Jim M and Patrick in VT and others have said. Being able to run low pressures for increased comfort, traction, and speed while avoiding pinch flats is awesome for mountain biking. The disadvantages of UST include a limited selection of tires and heavier tire weight. 

Around 10 years ago Stan Koziatek of Stan's NoTubes started selling products including rims, rim strips, valve stems, and latex-based sealant that allowed use of normal tires without tubes. This approach quickly gained popularity among mountain bikers and racers up to the Olympic/World Cup level. Not every tire works well with Stan's rims, however. More info on Stan's:

http://www.notubes.com/helpcenter.aspx

Besides using official UST and Stan's products, people have successfully converted standard rims and tires to tubeless. This method is referred by some as "ghetto tubeless" and the main advantage is low cost. Here is an example involving home-made sealant and strapping tape for the rim strip:

http://forums.mtbr.com/wheels-tires/ghetto-tubeless-works-good-380262.html

Nowadays several companies sell "tubeless-ready" MTB tires that are lighter than UST tires but have features designed to increase the likelihood of success when run tubeless with sealant:

http://bontrager.com/technology/why_tubeless_ready

Road Tubeless is a relatively new development and the selection of tubeless-compatible road tires is pretty limited. These tires typically have beads that are reinforced with carbon fiber so they don't blow off the rim when run at higher road pressures. Trying a ghetto tubeless conversion with a standard road tire is an extremely risky proposition. 

For 650B tubeless conversions, 42mm Hetres are relatively easy because at 40 PSI or so they are similar to MTB tires. 38mm Pari-Motos at higher pressures like 55 PSI would fall into a grey zone because few have attempted tubeless setups in that pressure range -- there is no good reason to run pressures that high on a mountain bike, and skinnier road bike tires typically require higher pressures. 

 

Getting to your questions:

1. Tubeless with 23mm road tires: If your wheels are 700C, the answer is yes, but you will have to buy a Road Tubeless tire, and use a Road Tubeless rim or a conversion kit from Stan's. If your wheels are 26" then you are probably out of luck.

2. Tubeless with wide SnoCat rims and 60mm+ Big Apple tires: Patrick, surely you recognize that you are the only person on the RBW email list who is using this rare combo, but let me Google that for you:

http://letterfromaustralia.blogspot.com/2009/10/wicked-wheels.html

This indicates that it is indeed possible to do a ghetto tubeless conversion of a SnoCat rim. Whether you can get Big Apples to work sans tubes probably only some trial and error on your part will resolve (tip: wear ear plugs when inflating the tire in case of blow-out).

Good luck,

David G, Madison WI

[PATRICK MOORE]

Thanks -- very instructive. Short answers, then, "No" and "No."

I'll read the ghetto methods with more care later, but for now, with
the BAs so loose on the rim, fergit it.

I had been under the impression that there were kits that you could
apply to just about any tire/rim combination, whence my question.

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[Patrick in VT]

On May 22, 7:57 pm, PATRICK MOORE <bertin...@gmail.com> wrote:
> How low can you go with tubeless in 2" tires? I regularly go down to
> 12 with my Big Apples -- have gone lower inadvertently -- with no
> pinches or creep.

i think it depends on the tire and where/how you ride. I have a buddy
who's pretty big at strong at 185lbs - he has to keep the pressure up
in his tubeless tires to prevent them from folding over under hard
cornering, but he's using a pretty lightweight/flexy MTB tire and
loves to rail berms and stuff. If he used a true UST tire, or tires
with a stiffer sidewall, he'd wouldn't have as much of an issue (his
thoughts on the matter, not mine - but I agree). of course, it
wouldn't be an issue at all if he wasn't mountain biking. you can go
really, really low - just don't rail any high speed corners.

I run around 18-20psi on lightweight tires (currently schwalbe Furious
Freds and Racing Ralphs) with no problems at race pace - but i'm
155lbs. and like Jim mentioned, I don't really bash my way through
gnarly rock gardens or take suspect lines. I also carry a spare tube/
boot when I know i'll be in some serious rough stuff because sealant
won't cure the really nasty cuts.

if you want to try it, you'd be hard pressed to find a better deal
than a used non-disc brake UST or tubeless ready wheelset for 26".
people basically give that stuff away.

[PATRICK MOORE]

You certainly can't call even the "Liteskin" version of the Big Apples
"lightweight!" Unfortunately, I am securely tied to 29", disk brakes
and to these 44mm wide rims on my one off road bike. Oh well, best to
just ride and not worry about improving things. Tho' a fat wheelset
that would shrug off goatheads would be very nice ...

I'd also be curious to see how road tubeless improve on the speed and
"feel" of racing tires, but as someone pointed out, these are for now
all 700c.

I'm not ready yet to go ghetto on either wheelset. Wonder if it is
possible for someone to develop a "kit" for standard tires ...

Patrick Moore, breathing deeply and repeating the mantra, "It's good
enough, it's good enough ...".

[Patrick in VT]

On May 23, 12:38 pm, PATRICK MOORE <bertin...@gmail.com> wrote:

>I'd also be curious to see how road tubeless improve on the speed and
>"feel" of racing tires, but as someone pointed out, these are for now
>all 700c.

what kind of racing tires? i have a friend who rides a Hutchinson
road tubeless wheelset and he likes it quite a bit. not far from a
tubular in terms of feel, but definitely stiffer casings. it's too
bad that "road" tubeless hasn't really taken off - granted, it's not
as user-friendly and "low-pressure performance" is still kind of
anathema with the roadie set. And a lot of racers have already
invested in tubular wheelsets (sealant works in tubulars too). still,
it'd be nice to see a smattering of road UST type options.

[Bill M.]

To me, road tubeless has most of the disadvantages of both clinchers and tubulars, without enough benefits.  Clinchers with tubes are easy to service, easily available at many price points, and come in a wide range of widths and casings.  Tubulars aren't cheap and take some time and care to glue up, but allow for lighter wheels, including carbon rims with a much greater safety margin than carbon clinchers, ride more comfortably for a given width, and don't pinch flat easily.  Road tubeless requires tires that are not easily available locally for most of us, aren't cheap, have few choices, require clincher rims that aren't as light as tubulars, can be a pain to get mounted and sealed, are a mess to deal with if a repair is needed on the road, and won't quite ride like tubulars.  

If I had the cash to spend, I'd rather ride some light carbon tubular wheels (ideally with disc brakes), use Tufo tape for mounting, and carry a little bottle of sealant than mess with tubeless.  I don't, so alloy rims, clinchers and tubes are where I plan on being for quite a while to come.

Bill

[Peter Morgano]

All this tubeless talk reminds me, i have a set of 700c tubeless wheels that came off an old Stowe of mine. I cant see ever using them, anyone want them for say $30 bucks? They defintely need new tires and glue, shimano 600 hubs with small block cluster. Why so cheap you ask? Because they were included with the bike, I am never gonna use them and if someone wants them shipped it is gonna cost a bit I figure. Local pickup in Brooklyn for same price though. Sorry to hijack this thread, but thought I would give it a shot to clear out some space in the basement.

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[David Yu Greenblatt]

You mean tubular not tubeless, Peter.

- David G

[Peter Morgano]

Ah,  I really don't know anything about them so I will take your word on it.

[William]

Two of the take-off parts from this Miyata are now up on ebay, if anyone is interested.  100% of the bid price goes back to Harding Elementary School PTA.  

http://www.ebay.com/sch/bubbanumbertwo/m.html?item=261031370889&sspagename=STRK%3AMESELX%3AIT&rt=nc&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649&_trksid=p4340.l2562 

It's the Shimano 600EX brakeset 47-57mm single pivot, with non aero levers, and the crankset 170mm 52/42

On Monday, May 21, 2012 10:55:57 AM UTC-7, William wrote:

I'm in the midst of a 650B conversion that I'm pretty excited about.  I've acquired a 1984 Miyata 912, and it's getting resurrected.  The major enhancement in my eyes is that I'll be converting it from a solid road bike that can take 700x25c tires without fenders, into a bike that can take 650x38B tires with fenders.  This conversion has a couple new aspects for me.  The clearance at the forks and the seatstays was wide enough for Hetres, but it was cozy down at the chainstays.  I researched a little through the various forums and on flickr and got my courage up to crush the chainstays a little bit to make some extra room.  That worked great, and I'll go at it again if I actually decide to run Hetres.  For now it'll be Soma B-Lines.  

The other highlights are that I'll be running the new, lighter weight Velocity A23 650B rims, exclusively available from Longleaf in New Hampshire.  Those rims, along with some advice from Anthony at Longleaf has got me convinced to give tubeless a try.  I'm a little freaked out by the concept, and I'm nervous that I'll make a mess of the whole thing, but at the same time I'm excited to learn something new.  Finally, this bike will be the home for a Sugino compact double that I beautified as my first bike part polishing project.  It was a 52/42/30 130/74mm crankset, that I've converted to a chainguard/42/26.  

This bike is tagged to become my new commute bike.  I've been using the Bombadil for my daily commute.  That commute involves bike on the roof of the car in the morning (carpool), and then a bike/BART commute home in the evening.  The ride home from BART is 2 miles, 600ft of climbing.  The Bomba is obviously smooth, rugged, and reliable.  The shortcomings are that the Bombadil is heavy for the roof rack, heavy for BART steps, and heavy for the 600ft climb, not to mention valuable to be subjected to 30 miles of freeway roofrackage every morning.  This Miyata will essentially be everything a Bleriot or a Betty Foy would have been for me.  Hopefully I can have it running by next week.  

pics show some of the progress:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/45758191@N04/sets/72157629709054752/ 

[William]

I did the tubeless part of the conversion tonight.  It was a little bit intimidating, having never done a tubeless conversion before.  It was slightly more intimidating since I could find no testimony whether Soma B-Lines have ever been used tubeless, but it seems to have worked out.  The tires seem to be holding air with no leaks.  I'll take them for a short ride tomorrow.  Look Ma, no tubes!

[Patrick in VT]

On Friday, June 15, 2012 12:28:10 AM UTC-4, William wrote:

I did the tubeless part of the conversion tonight. 

Cool!  What kind of sealant and how much did you end up using? 

[William]

I used Stans.  One full scoop seems to have done it.  Holding air nicely the next day

[Patrick in VT]

On Friday, June 15, 2012 12:13:00 PM UTC-4, William wrote:

I used Stans.  One full scoop seems to have done it.  Holding air nicely the next day

Great - sounds like a no hassle tire/rim combination.  did they go up with a floor pump or did you have to use compressed air?  Please post your thoughts once you get some time on it.

[William]

OK Patrick, you asked for it.  Long story but here goes. 

Here's how the process to tubeless went.  I was doing a 650B conversion anyway.  My frame was/is 126mm in the back and I had hubs, so I just needed rims.  I wanted to try something other than Synergies to see if I could get better tire seating than I have with the four pairs of Synergies in the stable.  Right at that time, Jan Heine posted a blog post about ideal rim shape for proper bead seating, in which he said even the Grand Bois rims they sell aren't ideal.  That, along with the $90 pricetag ruled out the Grand Bois.  A friend had a set of VO rims built up.  I noticed the rim make as I was looking over the bike, and gave the wheels a spin.  The Lierres weren't running very round and the wheels themselves were not running round.  I must have made a face because my friend said "My wheelbuilder said these rims were a bear to work with".  I don't know his wheelbuilder, and I can't say whether he's good or a total newbie, but this knocked the VO rims from my list.  What I really got excited about was/is the new Pacenti road rim.  It's super light, looks classic, and JPWeigle runs it with his Hetres and reported they seat perfectly.  The ~$100 per rim pricetag and the fact you can't get them yet made it tough, but aside from that, they sounded perfect.  There seemed to be another bump in excitement from the community in that JPW ran shaved Hetres tubeless.  That, along with some other recommendations from others got me thinking about trying tubeless.  Part of the allure is that rims made for tubeless are made for perfect bead seating.  Even if you run tubes, there's very little bad about perfect bead seating.  At that time I got turned on to the A23 project Anthony at Longleaf had executed.  He put out his own $$ to have a set of A23 rims made in 650B, and he was running them tubeless with Hetres.  They also had the promise of being a fair bit lighter than Synergies, and they actually exist.  I went ahead and ordered a set.  I can't stand the thought of a rim box being sent across country (New Hampshire to California) with nothing but rims in the box, so I told Anthony to sell me the spokes and everything I needed to try tubeless. 

I built up the wheels onto my NOS Specialized sealed bearing hubs.  The built went extraordinarily well.  The rims really wanted to be round, and I found it easy to tension them up, even though the rim is not eyeleted.  Often I've had problems with non-eyeleted rims.  Maybe I just did a good job lubing the spoke nipples, and maybe they are drilled just right, but it went great.  I installed the super thin super slick Stans tape and installed my Soma B-Lines with tubes to get the tape seated solid on the rims.  The bike remained that way for about a week.

Yesterday, after finishing a fender install, I had a little time so I decided to give the conversion a try.  I've watched the Stans video a couple times so I was reasonably comfortable with the process.  First I took off one bead, and got the tube out.  Then I screwed in the valve stem and put the bead back on.  I furiously pumped and pumped with my floor pump, to see if the tire would seal against the rim.  This is a reasonably important step, I've gathered.  What you're doing is trying to blow the bead on to the bead seat.  More airflow, like with a high volume compressor makes this go quickly.  A floor pump is far iffier.  I kind of nudged the bead over against the rim channel and managed to get it to pressurize.  Once it does...um...it does.  The bead SNAPS loudly into place when you get to 25 or 30 psi.  I could hear a few pinholes in the sidewalls but I was satisfied it was possible without having to go to the shop.  I decided to proceed.

I let the air out and pulled the one bead back off.  I hung the wheel on a hook that I set up for the purpose valve stem on top.  Then I shook up the sealant and poured a scoopful.  Pour that into a little puddle at the bottom of the tire.  Then I put the bead on, starting at the valve stem on top.  When I got about 60% of the way around, I can still see the puddle of sealant.  I lifted the wheel off the hook and rotated it 180 degrees, so now the puddle is inside the tire.  Pull the rest of the bead on, which is snug but pretty easy with no tube to worry about (no levers).  Then I hung up the wheel again and pumped hard and fast on the floor pump.  It took a little bit but eventually it pressurized.  I can imagine this being a big hassle if you can't get it to pressurize with your floor pump, you are kind of in for a mess.  How are you going to get it to a compressor without spilling or drying up the sealant?  If you take it back apart where are you going to pour out the sealant.  Everything is just better if it works.  Happily, it worked for me.  I inflated it up to about 25psi and started sloshing the sealant around all the surface area of the interior of the tire.  Then I rested the wheel flat.  I could hear some leaks and saw a couple tiny spots where sealant was coming through.  After a few minutes I picked it up, sloshed it around and flipped it over.  A few minutes later I couldn't hear any leaks, so I went ahead and took it to 45psi, and repeated the slosh and flip procedure a few more times.  I'm not sure if it was necessary or not, but it made me feel better.  I repeated the same process for the other wheel, and left both wheels on their sides overnight.  This morning they were still at 45psi, so I put them on the bike.

[cyclotourist]

GREAT to hear it went on so easily. I can't get tubeless w/out a compressor, so applaud your success with a floor pump!
Try the syringe that Stan sells, it's lets you put in the sealant after you've seated the bead. Not the end all/be all, but keeps things cleaner IMHO.

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[Patrick in VT]

On Friday, June 15, 2012 1:49:48 PM UTC-4, cyclot...@gmail.com wrote:

GREAT to hear it went on so easily. I can't get tubeless w/out a compressor, so applaud your success with a floor pump!
Try the syringe that Stan sells, it's lets you put in the sealant after you've seated the bead. Not the end all/be all, but keeps things cleaner IMHO.

Yes!  Agreed.  Great summary, William and great results - sounds like it couldn't have gone any smoother than that!  I've been lucky so far too - all my tubeless wheels (4) went up with a floor pump and soapy water - I then inject sealant through a removable valve core and work it around. 

Anyway, looks like I'll be building up some A23s at some point.  Thanks again for the write-up - that's one sweet 650b conversion. 

[Leslie]

What do you think of the A23's?   I have 700c Dyads on my Ram, wanted to go w/ 650b Dyads on the Bombadil, but as the 36h ones are no more, so I went w/ 36h Synergies.  But talking w/ the folks at V, they suggested the A23's at Longleaf.   I think the A23's should be lighter than either the Dyads or the Synergies, but I want a 'bombproof' rim, even if it is a touch heavier.   The Dyad is lighter, but supposedly stronger, than the Synergy, but as it's not available in a 36h anymore, it looks like I'll be sticking w/ the Synergy, unless something stronger comes along.   (I might could live w/ 32h on my Ram, as it goes unloaded, but, for the Bombadil, I'm sticking w/ at least a 36h...)

[William]

Well I've only ridden 20 miles or so on them.  They for sure built up very well.  I expect a wheelset to last me 10 years at least, so ask me in 8 and I'll let you know.  :-)