Sam Hillborne 56cm question

[Mike Goldsworthy]

Hi all -

My first time posting...I've been wanting to get a steel lugged bike
for a while now to use for commuting, grocery shopping, rides with the
kids...basically an all around general bike to use when I'm not riding
a road bike.

I've finally landed on the Sam, and have been saving to get enough $
to do a complete build. I'm about half way there, and discovered on
their website that it seems the 56cm only comes with a double top
tube. I emailed a few days ago to ask if this is the case, but haven't
heard back.

So, here's what I'm wondering - is the 56cm Sam only with a double top
tube now? If so, what would you suggest as some other options? I
really like the look and the idea of the Sam, but honestly don't like
the look of the double top tube at all...and if I'm spending that
much, I want to love not only the feel of it when I ride, but also I
want to love the look of it

[Darin G.]

I believe you can order the Waterford version without the second top
tube, but the price goes up. I have one of the first run green Sams
in a 56 and I totally agree with you on the double top tube. You will
find plenty of folks in this forum who are thrilled with their 2TT
bikes and agree with the premise for making them that way. I,
however, find my single TT more than adequate for doing all of the
things you describe and prefer the aesthetics of the single TT. I've
done everything but a loaded tour with it, and I think it could handle
that as well.

I will say that if I was looking at $1500 to get the Waterford Sam I'd
save another $500 to get either an Atlantis or AHH as you're 75% of
the way to a premium frame. Alternatively, you could look for a used
Sam with the single TT as they occasionally come up on the forum.

D.G.

[akes...@pacific.net]

Hey Mike, I don't have the answer about the double top tube but I enjoy
looking at my bike almost as much as riding it! Especially after a
complete take apart and cleaning!

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[Smitty-A-Go-Go]

My impression is that 2TT vs 1TT is almost as divisive as low trail vs high trail. I like both. If I were looking for a 1TT 56 Sam I might call around to bike shops that are known to stock Rivs. Search the forum archive, or there might be a list on the Riv site. Also, try call Riv HQ. They're all great folks. 

 

There might be some wisdom in the idea that if you have to do a special order from Waterford to make the leap and go with an Atlantis or AHH, but experience has taught that that mentality can be a slippery slope. 

Best of luck to you.

--Smitty 

65 Double Double Homer 

(that's 2TT and 2 head badges)

  

[Steve Hemmelgarn]

Mike,

 

You may want to contact the Country Bike Shop in Celina, Ohio at WWW.CountryBikeshop.com

 

They are an exclusive Riv dealer and the last time I was there they had some 56 Sams with a single TT.

 

Steve Hemmelgarn

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[DustyMerkin]

Have you looked at the Soma San Marcos, the 54cm does not have the 2TT but I believe the geometry is similar to the 56cm but not sure.

[charlie]

Double top tubes have good merits....I for one, would like one and
love the unique look and practical benefits. Almost wish my SimpleOne
were so equipped.....speaking of the SO thats not a bad deal @ $800
and if you can live with a nice freewheel on a Phil hub then you could
make a really nice 10 or 15 speed deraileur bicycle not to mention a
IG hub bike or leave it a 1-4 speed deraileurless machine. I love mine
and don't miss the "extra" gears. A bike so equipped (10 speed) was
all we ever needed back in the day. When properly set up with the
right gearing you would be at no disadvantage at all IMHO. My own
geared machine is on a seven cog rear set up so yea.....think about
it.

[Bruce Baker]

You might want to check with country bikes they still have a few Sam's
with a single top tube www.countrybikeshop.com/ or Mountain sports Ltd
mountainsportsltd.com/ in Bristol.
I have a 56 Sam and love it...You are making the right choice..
Bruce

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[Jay in Tel Aviv]

Same thing happened to me this summer. I got as far as putting the
order in for a new Sam and ended up cancelling it when I found out
about the extra tube. I called around everywhere to find a shop that
still had the single top tube Sam, but the few that did would only
sell it as a complete bike, built up their way at full retail prices.
In the end I bought a used frame on this list and had it built by
Bikeman.com in Maine, which worked out just fine. Whole thing cost ~
$2000 with hand built XT/Synergy wheels, 46 cm Noodle bars, bar end
shifters, a mid-range Shimano X9 drive train, v brakes and Longfellow
fenders.

I started out with a 10 cm stem, which I later changed for an 8. Now
I'm toying with the idea of putting Alba bars on the 10cm with their
own shifters and brake levers and cable splitters for easy switching.
Not sure if it's worth the $, but it could be fun.

Let us know what you decide to do.

Jay

[Elton Pope-Lance]

If not,  Harris has an orange one on the floor.

Elton Pope-Lance

Natick, MA

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[Mike Goldsworthy]

awesome. thanks. just sent them an email

On Jan 20, 1:03 pm, Steve Hemmelgarn <trekcommu...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Mike,
>
> You may want to contact the Country Bike Shop in Celina, Ohio at WWW.CountryBikeshop.com
>
> They are an exclusive Riv dealer and the last time I was there they had some 56 Sams with a single TT.
>
> Steve Hemmelgarn
>

> From: Mike Goldsworthy <mgoldswor...@gmail.com>
> To: RBW Owners Bunch <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2012 3:13 PM
> Subject: [RBW] Sam Hillborne 56cm question
>
> Hi all -
>
> My first time posting...I've been wanting to get a steel lugged bike
> for a while now to use for commuting, grocery shopping, rides with the
> kids...basically an all around general bike to use when I'm not riding
> a road bike.
>
> I've finally landed on the Sam, and have been saving to get enough $
> to do a complete build. I'm about half way there, and discovered on
> their website that it seems the 56cm only comes with a double top
> tube. I emailed a few days ago to ask if this is the case, but haven't
> heard back.
>
> So, here's what I'm wondering - is the 56cm Sam only with a double top
> tube now? If so, what would you suggest as some other options? I
> really like the look and the idea of the Sam, but honestly don't like
> the look of the double top tube at all...and if I'm spending that
> much, I want to love not only the feel of it when I ride, but also I
> want to love the look of it
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.

> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.

[Mike Goldsworthy]

i'll take a look at it. thanks!

what's the difference between the san marcos, AHH and Atlantis?

On Jan 20, 2012, at 4:15 PM, DustyMerkin wrote:

Have you looked at the Soma San Marcos, the 54cm does not have the 2TT but I believe the geometry is similar to the 56cm but not sure.

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[PATRICK MOORE]

What exactly is the reason for the second tt on such a small size as a 56? Is it just for looks?

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Albuquerque, NM
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[James Warren]

Now that's the kind of question we need on the list right now!

The Atlantis came about around 1999 as Rivendell's Japanese-built version of their legendary All-rounder. The all-rounder is/was a bike-style designed to work well in the following ways:

as a road bike for people not set on racing lightness or racing geometry. 

as an offroad vehicle once you mount some wide tires, and the tire clearance is wide. Grant would shoot for two inches, although the first Atlantis's in 99 through 2001 only got to about 1.9.

as an excellent touring bike

and in other ways you can think of, because the bike is so versatile.

The versatility came through the very high clearances and cantilever brakes which gave no problem mounting fenders and very wide tires. The bike has a pretty long wheelbase and pretty long chainstays (although still shorter than the 80's Trek 720's). It has a low bottom bracket which improves road handling and invites larger tires, especially for offroad use. The other part of the versatility is the rack braze-ons and really nice fender mounting spots. In the earlier part of the 90's, one of the distinguishing features of the all-rounder was basing it around 26 inch wheels. This came from the Bridgestone days, when they were one of the few companies making "hybrids" based around the more useful at the time 26 inch wheel size when offroading is even considered. When Rivendell started, the All-rounder model would continue this 26-inch wheel design, and that was one of the features that made me want one then. But early in Rivendell's existence, they started not liking the 26-inch wheels on the larger sizes, and began selling the larger ones with 700c wheels and the smaller ones with 26 inch wheel. As a tall guy, this bummed me out until I was convinced that in the late 90's, offroad 700c tires, even 2-inch varieties, were beginning to blossom, mostly from WTB and Schwalbe. 

In the late 90's, the all-rounder was a model made in the US and was fairly expensive, and Grant wanted to make a version of it in Japan that would cost less. This is where the Atlantis came from. It has those all-rounder qualities described above, the big tire clearance, the great touring behavior, the offroad capability, nice bike to ride unloaded for road rides. It's an amazing bike, and it's still available as originally designed, only now it has more rack braze-ons for added versatility (mini-racks and such). I speak from experience regarding the Atlantis. I got mine in 2001, and it really can do everything I would want to do riding. All my other bikes are specialists in some specific cycling arena that the Atlantis can hold its own: sporty road rides, cross-country mountain biking, commuting, sub-24-hour overnighters, country biking with long days and mixed surfaces. What the Atlantis excels at that the others can't match is touring rides that include camping. 700c in the large sizes and 26 inch in the smaller sizes. Amazing bike. One of the higher price Rivendell production models, but worth it. And the 700c tire options are wonderful now. I don't long for 26ers much anymore. Additionally, the Atlantis was ahead of the mainstream now so excited about these modern "29ers!"

A Homer Hilsen:

Perhaps without the All-rounder, the AHH could not have come about. Let's say you never want to tour, you love country rides, you like to veer off-road, you like to go overnight, just not days on end, you like to be comfortable for a long day. You like to carry stuff on your bike, at least sometimes, and you like road rides. But most importantly, in addition to all of the above, you want to do most of it, including the road rides, on tires that are between 32 mm and 40 mm, because you've discovered what an awesome size that is, including for road rides. Also, because you like that tire width so much, you don't want to scale the tire down just to mount a fender. If so, then the A Homer Hilsen is the bike. Also, the A Homer Hilsen has a cool refinement: dual pivot sidepulls work well and still provide the clearance needed to do what's described above. 

Another way of describing what's above for the AHH is to say that it sort of splits the difference between the Rivendell Atlantis and the Rivendell Road model. So the AHH is a refinement of the all-rounder, moved closer to the road end of the spectrum. Or maybe it's the other way around, because the tubing of the AHH is lighter like the road models. The Atlantis uses more sturdy tubes for its loaded duties and probably greater offroad duties.

The AHH probably tours for days on end better than many bikes that have been taken for days-on-end touring by many people for the past 50 years.

I'll be that big-tire, fast road-biking is something that few people know exists, and I'll bet the AHH is the best bike in the world at it. Also, Rivendell calls the AHH a country bike. You should read Grant's description of the term "country bike." I'll try to find it. If you take fully loaded touring out of the equation (which could be valid, because it's a rare thing to do), then I think the AHH is the most versatile and coolest bike ever made.

San Marcos:

Rivendell has almost always had a road model available, a bike not designed for heavy loads or too much offroad use (but with Rivendells, you can stretch those rules even.) Rivendell road models have always had slightly longer wheelbases than typical road bikes, and their comfort levels are extremely high. You get handlebar position versatility (high included) and big tire clearances. The production Rivendells for the road that came before the San Marcos have been the Rambouillet, Romulus and the Roadeo. With the San Marcos and the Roadeo, you can use 700x33 tires with fenders which I think is extraordinary. If the main thing you want is a road bike, get one of these. They are superb performers as road bikes and they are very comfortable and versatile. The San Marcos is much less expensive than the Roadeo. You're not supposed to load them too much, but listen: I have a Rambouillet and I stretch the rules often. I put a rear rack on it and take it on overnighters. I put Jack Browns on it (700x33) and veer offroad sometimes. If I had to knock the whole bike collection down to 1, on paper and for practicality/versatility, that one should probably be the Atlantis. But even still, in the end I'd have a hard time not picking the Rambouillet. I don't know what the San Marcos rides like, but I'm guessing it is similar. Rivendell road models are amazing. Also, some people (brilliant people who know their stuff by the way) will tell you that the optimum tire size for these models is 700x28. They are probably right, but for me, ever since I put Jack Brown greens, 700x33, on my Rambouillet, I have vowed not to take them off, the ride is so wonderful (and I think fast).

And remember my friends, it is better to feel fast than to be fast.

-Jim 

[James Warren]

Correction/clarification: The Atlantis does now succeed in achieving the 2-inch tire clearance. Maybe more, I'm not sure.

[Mike Goldsworthy]

Thanks everyone for the help!

I've sent an email to countrybike and will see what they've got. I'm
also going to try and get in touch with Rivendell - from the website,
it's unclear to me if the 56cm has a double TT or not.

A few of you have suggested looking at different models - the
Atlantis, the AHH, and the Soma San Marcos. Can anyone help me with
the differences between these frames, and what they'd be good for?

Also, one last question - I'm trying to measure my PBH, and I think
i'm about a 84.5. I'm 5'10", and in doing the method described on
Rivendell's site, I get 33.25"...which converted ends up about 84.5,
which seems to be right at the edge for a 56 Sam. I currently ride a
54 Cannondale road bike. Anyone about the same size have experience on
a 56 Sam?

[Mike Goldsworthy]

Jim - that's incredibly helpful. Thanks do much for this!

Mike

-------

yes it's short & it may be misspelled  because it was "Sent from my iPhone"

[islaysteve]

Mike, If you can't find a single TT Sam in your size, I suggest you widen your search to include other previous models, esp. the Bleriot (disclaimer, I bought a Bleriot f/f last year).  I mention the Bleriot specifically because it will serve your stated purposes (rackable, fenderable, etc like mosts Rivs), and takes a tire up to 42 (Hetres) but that size is tricky with fenders.  It's a 650b bike, which the Sam is in smaller sizes only.  This may be an advantage to you or not, your call.  Anyway, since the Bleriot originally sold for $750, prices for used are generally less than those for the other used Rivs.  I said generally.  Of course great deals can be found in used Rivs on Craigslist and eB; while others examples can be quite expensive.  Patience is called for.   James Warren's excellent historical post on this thread gives you an idea of some of the other models and their capabilities.  Differences between the Sam and the Bleriot:  Sam has canti brakes, Bler, sidepulls.  More rack attachments on Sam (but  you can put a front and rear on the Bler w/o too much trouble.)  Somewhat more tire/fender clearance for Sam.  Check the geometry charts to see if 56 Sam is for 650b or 700c wheels.  Like the Sam and most Riv models, it can be set up in a variety of ways, with drop or upright bars, etc.  Our moderator here also has an excellent website with picture pages/info devoted to many of the Riv models, including the Bleriot.  I can't link to it here before finishing this post, but it shouldn't be too hard to find.  Good luck, Steve

[Ray Shine]

I know you are thinking all of this thru. you shouldn't rush. readd all the posts and the Riv site as well. Read cyclofiends info, too. Check out the various photo sets, etc.

I just wanted you to know that I will be off-line for the next few hours, so if you were to email me, a response is not likely until this evening.  Going on a Marin County  ride between storms!

---

From: Mike Goldsworthy <mgolds...@gmail.com>
To: "rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com" <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sat, January 21, 2012 9:19:56 AM
Subject: Re: [RBW] Sam Hillborne 56cm question - diff between the Riv models

[jimD]

Jim,

Excellent!

If Jim Cyclofiend wasn't swamped I'd move that he add this to the Cyclofiend site.

[Bruce Herbitter]

Great recap and thoughts on Riv models past and present. Don't forget the pre-Rambouillet Long Low, which was very similar to it at a higher price point, and the Road Standard, which had much quicker steering (lower trail).

[DustyMerkin]

I hate to keep bringing up Soma but the lugged Stanyan is a great frame and looks like you can get it for 450 on ebay right now which is an amazing price for these.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Soma-Stanyan-Frame-and-Fork-56cm-BRAND-NEW-w-FREE-UPS-SHIPPING-/200695937583?pt=Road_Bikes&hash=item2eba68fa2f#ht_2559wt_1168

I

[Joe Bernard]

Check out the Bleriot on EBay. Might be your size. Lovely bicycle.

[danmc]

I am ~ 5'10" with 84.5 PBH and have a 56 Sam. The 56 is a great fit
for me. I think 84 is on the cusp of 52/56 sizing but bigger is better
than smaller as you can dial things in with stem, bars and saddle
height.

Right now I have the bike built up with 46cm Noodle bars and 8cm
Technomic stem. That combo works well for me.

I do believe the Taiwan 56 frames are double TT but a call to Riv will
answer that.

Also - sometimes there are frames in the "attic" at RBW. There was a
Protovelo labeled Sam frame a few weeks back. Might still be there.

The San Marcos is really geared towards road use with smaller loads
and minor off road. A nice looking frame and rides well, though.

If you can handle the "girl's bike" questions the Yves Gomez might be
worth considering. Same geometry as the Sam. But no top tube at all!

Another used bike to keep an eye open for is a Heron. There were a
couple of models and they are lighter tubing than the Atlantis - but
very similar geometry. Designed by Grant and Waterford built. They
take narrower tires than the modern Rivs.

You can dig the info out of the internet archive wayback machine.
http://web.archive.org/web/20061029010028/http://www.heronbicycles.com/frames.html


Dan

San Rafael, CA

[Mike Goldsworthy]

Thanks Dusty…I've been looking at the other models today, and think I'm still pretty sold on getting a Sam. It seems that there's a few of them laying around in different places. Rivendell actually has 1 single top tube 56cm in maroon right now that they're selling at a discount. I'm not sure I want a maroon one…so throwing that out there for whoever else stumbles on this thread

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[danmc]

Excellent write-up on the Riv models!

Thanks for posting it.

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[Leslie]

Sorry I'm late to this, and I see they've been mentioned, but, to reiterate, if RBW doesn't have what you want...  the last time I was in there a week or so ago, Mountain Sports Limited had a green 56 F/F with a single top-tube, hanging up on the floor.  

Best,

-L