No DT shifter boss

[SamuelJames]

I noticed that the Hillborne does not have any shifter bosses. Did Grant ever give a reason for this?  I guess it's not a big deal, just curious.

[René Sterental]

Neither does the Betty. AFIK, it saves a little money on these lower cost frames made in Taiwan. Very few people use DT shifters now so they are pretty much dissapearing from most lower cost frames. The more expensive frames like the Hunqapillar, Atlantis, Homer and Bombadil have them.

On Mon, Sep 26, 2011 at 6:29 PM, SamuelJames <samco...@gmail.com> wrote:

I noticed that the Hillborne does not have any shifter bosses. Did Grant ever give a reason for this?  I guess it's not a big deal, just curious.

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[Tom Taylor]

Fwiw, I had a conversation about this with Kevin at Riv when I was in the process of buying my Sam H.  His explanation was that, what with the sloping top tube and the typical high bar setup, down tube shifters are way down there, a big reach, and don't make sense.  So the bike is basically designed for bar ends.  Never been on one to test this (mine is still an in progress build), but it sounds good.

[islaysteve]

The Bleriot does not have them either, and I guess it was the first "low cost Taiwan-made" Riv frame.  Although I use STI shifters,  I miss having the bosses and the Shimano adjusters that fit over them.  I had to find a solution to add cable adjusters when I was building up the Bleriot, and settled on in-line adjusters, placed in the cable just ahead of the downtube cable stops.  Works, but I'd rather have had the bosses.   I guess fine tuning the shift cables isn't an issue when you're using friction shift.  Steve

[Garth]

No DT shifters is becoming the norm .  What I don't get is ... why no third set of bottle braze-ons in the Sam?   That's a cost cutting measure I will never accept and goes against the the premise that it is an all-purpose bike.  If I buy one, I'll have them send it out to add them and have it repainted.  Same with DT shifters, if someone really wanted them , you could do the same thing. 

[Ginz]

DT bosses not only add cost, but those pricey bolt-on cable stops that
we must use make it even more expensive.

[jimD]

This makes sense even for my Riv custom. With taller frames and higher bars, reaching for downtubers seems, for me, a bit of a stretch.

That wasn't the case on my Dave Porter custom. These days when I ride that bike (which I love) I get a crick in my neck but I sure can reach those down tube shifters. I wonder now hiw I was ever able to ride the Porter all day, much less how I was ever got it over mountain passes with a 42/23. I guess I'm more 'mature' now.

-JimD

I've had downtubers and knew how to use them.

[PATRICK MOORE]

Oh, please post many and detailed photos of the Dave Porter. When did
you get it? I've been tempted to get a gofast from him (he lives in
ABQ).

How does it compare with your Riv, bar/saddle relationship aside?

FWIW, I could reach the dt levers on my Curt Custom back when it had a
rear derailleur and I have no problem with those on the Herse.

[Ryan J]

I have a Sam Hillborne and went with barends for it, but I honestly prefer downtube shifting because of the ease of setup and lack of shifter cables on the bars.  The sloping toptube argument seems like a good one for lack of bosses, but I think with my next bike, which will either be a Roadeo or a Hilsen, will be setup with downtubes.  I still really love the Hillborne though, even with the shifter cables up on the bars.

[grant]

The arguments for and against DT shifter bosses and third water bottle
bosses can go only so far, because the opposite side has a good
argument, too.

We don't recommend downtube shifters on our bikes for the reasons
given---higher bars, farther reach to the shifters. It's never dumb to
do that, but it's less.....advantageous when you're on trails or
riding a loaded bike. I'm all for the skills and bike awareness that
allows somebody to safely shift on the downtube (and before somebuddy
acuses me of suggesting it's not safe, let me say that for almost a
year way back, I shifted on the front rings with finger alone---way
more risky and way more of a reach).

Still, 99+ percent of the bikes we sell WITH downtube bosses still use
something other than downtube shifters, and we sell many bar-end pods
alone to customers who started out with downtubers.

Both ways work, and I am not strongly opposed to with/without the
bosses and stops.

THREE bottles, kind of the same thing. Three bottles made more sense
when bottles held a pint. Nobody uses those anymore, and the old "big
bottles" held 28oz, which x 2 is 56, which is 8 oz more than three
pint-bottles.
The new big bottles hold 32 ounces, so even with two, you can carry
half a gallon of water.

For expeditionary use I can see needing a third, but a bike like the
Sam....I'd say half a gallon is enough most of the time, and when it's
not, there are other ways to carry. Bar-mount, in a bag or basket.
It's not a matter of cost. When lug mold costs $3500 and each lug
costs about $10, and the labor is 5x higher for building with lugs,
and we do to all kinds of expense...you can be sure that we aren't
going to eliminate a bottle option if there's a compelling reason to
include it. But with bigger bottles, less of a need, and if the only
argument is, "but where's the HARM," then it becomes a philosophical
difference that makes sense on both sides. I'd ask "where's the
benefit?"

There are lots of smart things that we don't do, I'm sure, but the
omission of a third bottle cage mount isn't a super infraction, if
that makes sense.

[islaysteve]

Grant, If I may, I'd like to suggest an alternative to the shifter bosses and the generic cable stops like the ones on my Bleriot.  Couldn't you spec a threaded cable stop?  I'm sure I saw adjusters that thread into such, and of course you could carry the adjusters in stock.  This would be a slightly more elegant solution for those of us who would like cable adjusters in that position, without the shifter bosses and necessary fittings from Shimano or whoever.   I'm also thinking that the threaded cable stops could be used without adjusters, but I'm not sure about that.  Cheers, Steve

[Joe Bernard]

I'd like to see the cable-stops at the bottom headtube lug, which would eliminate the cable housing rubbing that area. The only reason cable-stops are where they are now is because that's where the bosses used to be.

 

Joe Bernard

Fairfield, CA.

[dougP]

On the water bottle cage issue, you can always add additional bottle
holders with clamps. In the days before braze-ons, everything got
clamped to the frame. Even 30 years ago, plenty of good bikes came
with only 1 set of bottle holder cage bosses. If you wanted a second
bottle on the seat tube, you clamped it on. No big deal. A clamp-on
can also be located wherever you want it, especially helpful in
smaller frame sizes.

dougP

[jimD]

Sorry, the Porter is in eastern washington. I have no pictures.
It's difficult to compare the bikes. The Porter is a 70's club rider bike (super record groupo) for a
younger, stronger rider. I had ton's of fun on that bike for many years. The bars on the Porter are ~3 cm
below seat height.

These days my custom Riv is the far more comfortable bike for me. The Porter feels zippy but un-comfortable on rides longer than ~30 miles. I ride it when I visit 'home' but these days much prefer my Riv.

All that having been said, Dave is a great artisan and the Porter is still going strong and has a prominent
place in my heart (along with the custom Riv).

-JimD

[Ryan Watson]

I much prefer DT shifters, too.

Has anyone come out with clamp-on DT bosses for larger sized down tubes?

When I had my Bleriot, I searched high and low and couldn't find anything suitable.

FYI: if you have DT bosses but use STI or whatever, I've found that many shops will just give you those little adapters. They're included with the shifters, but most modern bikes don't use them, so shops end up with a whole box of them. 

Regarding those 3rd bottle cage mounts under the DT: I've owned five such bikes and have never been able to actually put a bottle down there because it would hit the small chainring. 

The only thing that I've ever put down there is that nifty little Nitto spare tire carrier.

Ryan

On Sep 27, 2011, at 10:54, Ryan J <rmer...@murraystate.edu> wrote:

I have a Sam Hillborne and went with barends for it, but I honestly prefer downtube shifting because of the ease of setup and lack of shifter cables on the bars.  The sloping toptube argument seems like a good one for lack of bosses, but I think with my next bike, which will either be a Roadeo or a Hilsen, will be setup with downtubes.  I still really love the Hillborne though, even with the shifter cables up on the bars.

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[newenglandbike]

When it comes to carrying water, I can't recommend dromedary bags enough-   you can carry a gallon of water in the bottom of a Wald medium front basket alone.      You can sling dromedary bag over your rear rack, stuff it into a pannier, or empty it out and roll it up to the size of a cigar.     DROMEDARY BAGS:   It's how to carry water!  :D

[Garth]

I find the third cage very useful . I use it for tubes and repair kit and a few tools, wrapped burrito style in the canvas Riv sells,  and a very small 100cu. in. saddle bag, one that does not rub my legs.  I've tried to put everything in a larger saddle bad, but they rub on my rear or legs , they all do it somewhere. I can't use them anymore. I also ride out of the saddle alot and a heavy saddle bag feels a dog having a really heavy tail wagging it .... lol . 

Braze on popularity and use is entire subjective for sure. Some people will never use the myriad of rack braze ons, but they are popular for the moment.   That's the point ... it does depend on the person as to which one's they will use and for what.  There is no right/wrong here of course ... it's all between the ears . LoL ...

[grant]

Every way and place for bosses or stops has its plusses and minuses,
so it ends up being a well-intentioned judgment call---what we do and
where they go. For example (not to drag this out, but all the points
were well-made)..

Threads aren't as helpfully innocuous as they seem to be when they're
perfect, because sometimes they can be imperfect. The imperfection may
be caused by a flub at the factory, or an infiltration of gunk along
the way, or a cross-threading by sombody somewhere...because it
happens (mainly crossthreadings) with every threaded point on the
bike. In theory or at some level, cross-threading is the problem of
the cross-threader, but the reality is that we make it our problem
(cross-threaders are often in denial). It's times like those that
scare guys like me away from threading, where non-threading is a still
viable option, even if less convenient under perfect conditions.
Threaded seat binder bosses are the worst. Threaded bottle bosses and
rack bosses are the best. Old Frenchies had unthreaded dropout
eyelets, which now seem ridiculous, but there's no better way to avoid
cross-threading.C
Stops on the bottom head lug are icky. They Increase cable Kinkage,
Yep. With coily old-fashioned cable housings, no problem, but with
modern indexable ones, they tighten the curve too much. You might see
100 perfectly funtional ones on 100 bikes somewhere, but if those
bikes get ridden a lot and the bars flipped side to side as
happens...unavoidably...then the housings will blow out there.

I hope I can present these views without coming off as Final Word
Answer Man. Like I said, there are plusses to all the options. None
dumb!

I like DougP's water bottlel cage option (clamp-one-one!) comment,
too. I should've thoughta that. It's so true, of course. I remember
when the first bikes showed up with two sets of bottle mounts. We
looked askance at 'em. Those were the soft-core gimmicky bikes of
their day. I've been comfortable with bottle bosses for a few decades
now, but am still shy of through-the-fork braze-ons for low-riders,
etc. Give me....20 years-----nope, better make it closer to 30---and
I'll come around on that one.

[Joe Bernard]

Aah, I hadn't thought about the "tight curve" with bottom-lug-mount cable stops. Thanks for the answer.

 

Joe Bernard

Fairfield, CA.

[Steve Palincsar]

On Wed, 2011-09-28 at 07:58 -0700, grant wrote:

> I remember when the first bikes showed up with two sets of bottle
> mounts. We looked askance at 'em. Those were the soft-core gimmicky
> bikes of their day.

Maybe in California that might be true. Here in Northern Virginia, the
climate won't let you ride in the summertime on just one water bottle.
We have this thing called "humidity" that drapes you in a clinging
blanket of sweat, with temperatures around 100 degrees to go along with
it.

In fact, since most of the country stores have closed in the past 20-30
years, there are many places where even two large size water bottles are
insufficient, and the bikes I ride in the summertime have a 3rd water
bottle cage.

[dougP]

Humidity is a killer. Did a couple of weeks in rural Wisconsin this
summer. Same problem you mention about stores. Plenty of places on
the map turned out to be crossroads. More water is always better.

Even in California, a 3rd water bottle is handy. The cool ocean
breezes only extend a few miles inland, and depend on terrain. Temps
can vary from 70 at the beach to over 90 only 20 miles away. Lower
humidity means your sweat dries faster & you are more comfortable than
higher humidity, but hydration is essential. The western US in
general is pretty parched once away from the coast. I was in Eureka &
Santa Rosa (north of San Franciso) last week & was glad for that 3rd
bottle on my Atlantis. #3 is also handy when a riding companion runs
low.

dougP

[Steve Palincsar]

On Wed, 2011-09-28 at 11:43 -0700, dougP wrote:
> Humidity is a killer. Did a couple of weeks in rural Wisconsin this
> summer. Same problem you mention about stores. Plenty of places on
> the map turned out to be crossroads. More water is always better.
>
> Even in California, a 3rd water bottle is handy. The cool ocean
> breezes only extend a few miles inland, and depend on terrain. Temps
> can vary from 70 at the beach to over 90 only 20 miles away. Lower
> humidity means your sweat dries faster & you are more comfortable than
> higher humidity, but hydration is essential. The western US in
> general is pretty parched once away from the coast. I was in Eureka &
> Santa Rosa (north of San Franciso) last week & was glad for that 3rd
> bottle on my Atlantis. #3 is also handy when a riding companion runs
> low.

If you like a water/Gatorade mixture in your bottles, it's really nice
to have a 3rd bottle with just water for those times you need to pour
water on your head and onto your jersey. A mixture of water and
Gatorade really doesn't do nearly as well for that!

[EricP]

Have been lucky enough to ride both in the east (Washington DC) and
the west (San Diego) during the summer. Only really suffered once.
On the Rivendell group ride in San Diego. Go figure. Same bike on
each coast. And rides similar in distance. About 40 miles. Even
today, can't figure it out, as on many 40 mile rides around here in
Minnesota I'll only use one water bottle. Guess my body is more
programmed to heat/humidity than nice and dry?

As to the Sam Hillborne - had mine for over two years now. A couple
of times during that period have thought about downtube shifters, but
when I reach to where they would be - ugh. Way too far down. Not a
comfortable reach. Yes, if I were to lose the next 30 or 40, or even
50 pounds, it might be easier. Still would be too much of a chore
though.

And still hoping that Rivendell eventually makes a bike with just one
set of bottle braze-ons. A lot of folks don't need two bottles all
the time. And it would make the bike stand out just a little bit
more.

Eric Platt
St. Paul, MN

[Stephen S]

The Betty Foy has only one set of bottle braze-ons.  It makes sense with the geometry but can be inconvient.



On Wednesday, September 28, 2011 12:16:01 PM UTC-7, EricP wrote:

<snip>

And still hoping that Rivendell eventually makes a bike with just one
set of bottle braze-ons.  A lot of folks don't need two bottles all
the time.  And it would make the bike stand out just a little bit
more.

Eric Platt
St. Paul, MN

[islaysteve]

Grant, Thanks for replying to all of our ideas and suggestions.  It's always interesting and enlightening to get the maker's perspective on these things and your posts on the RBW site exemplify this.  These are things that the buyer/user/rider would not probably consider.  Steve

[Joe Bernard]

I'll tell ya, I didn't consider that buyers would cross-thread a braze-on, then think it was someone else's fault. Sheesh.  

[Bob Cooper]

And then there's Jobst Brandt, who carries no water, Gatorade, et
cetera.

He stops to drink.

Very civilized, I would say.

Bob