Headset Issue
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Darin G.
Jul 25, 2011, 1:12:21 AM7/25/11
to RBW Owners Bunch
Just had the headset on my Sam adjusted at the LBS after discovering
the upper threaded race was loose. The cable hanger seems to have
acted as a lever on the race and worked it loose. The lock nut was
still tight. I took it home after adjustment without riding it and
discovered the steering was squirrelly. I took the front trunk bag
off the rack and things improved some but it still felt dodgy Not the
Sam I'm used to. Steering is "jumpy" in corners and I don't feel
comfortable taking my hands off the bar.
I've lifted the wheel off the ground to observe whether the wheel
falls over easily. It hesitates slightly at the straight ahead
position then falls over. When I rotate the steering by hand I can
feel it catch in both directions at short intervals. Before I get too
excited about this does it sound like its just too tight and needs to
be re-adjusted? Is the squirrelly steering a symptom of an overly
tight headset? I've read about indexing, but I can't imagine its
indexed after only 1500 miles.
D.G.
the upper threaded race was loose. The cable hanger seems to have
acted as a lever on the race and worked it loose. The lock nut was
still tight. I took it home after adjustment without riding it and
discovered the steering was squirrelly. I took the front trunk bag
off the rack and things improved some but it still felt dodgy Not the
Sam I'm used to. Steering is "jumpy" in corners and I don't feel
comfortable taking my hands off the bar.
I've lifted the wheel off the ground to observe whether the wheel
falls over easily. It hesitates slightly at the straight ahead
position then falls over. When I rotate the steering by hand I can
feel it catch in both directions at short intervals. Before I get too
excited about this does it sound like its just too tight and needs to
be re-adjusted? Is the squirrelly steering a symptom of an overly
tight headset? I've read about indexing, but I can't imagine its
indexed after only 1500 miles.
D.G.
Joe Bernard
Jul 25, 2011, 1:45:47 AM7/25/11
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Too tight. If it only "indexed" at the straight-ahead position, you'd probably have a bigger problem, but tight all the way through the range of motion is a tight headset. If you have the wrenches, back off the locknut, loosen the headset cup a quarter turn, then hold that baby steady while you tighten the locknut back down. Keep doing this until the steering frees up.
George Schick
Jul 25, 2011, 11:13:10 AM7/25/11
to RBW Owners Bunch
The OP's issue is exactly why I bought a lot of my own bike tools
decades ago. Seems like the LBS's have gotten worse over the years,
too, and I notice that many of them now employ part time kids. Can't
necessarily fault 'em for that; I realize they don't make a lot of
money. But if there are just some things that, if you want them done
right, you more or less have to take the bull by the horns yourself.
decades ago. Seems like the LBS's have gotten worse over the years,
too, and I notice that many of them now employ part time kids. Can't
necessarily fault 'em for that; I realize they don't make a lot of
money. But if there are just some things that, if you want them done
right, you more or less have to take the bull by the horns yourself.
Darin G.
Jul 25, 2011, 11:38:30 AM7/25/11
to RBW Owners Bunch
This bike has been to two shops this month--the first one didn't even
consider the headset (it was loose when they returned it) and failed
to properly tune the drivetrain while charging me north of $100 for
their "recommended" deluxe tune-up. Not happy. At the second shop
where I bought the bike I should have given it a quick test drive and
I'm sure the mechanic (not a part-time kid in this instance) would
have got the adjustment right, just wish I would have caught it before
I took the bike home. This does speak to the need to do it yourself
so today I'm out hunting for the wrenches. I have every intention of
buying tools and learning how to do most of my own work. Our local
bicycle collective offers a free Park Tool class and I'm looking
forward to attending.
consider the headset (it was loose when they returned it) and failed
to properly tune the drivetrain while charging me north of $100 for
their "recommended" deluxe tune-up. Not happy. At the second shop
where I bought the bike I should have given it a quick test drive and
I'm sure the mechanic (not a part-time kid in this instance) would
have got the adjustment right, just wish I would have caught it before
I took the bike home. This does speak to the need to do it yourself
so today I'm out hunting for the wrenches. I have every intention of
buying tools and learning how to do most of my own work. Our local
bicycle collective offers a free Park Tool class and I'm looking
forward to attending.
Seth Vidal
Jul 25, 2011, 11:46:24 AM7/25/11
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 11:38 AM, Darin G. <dbg...@mac.com> wrote:
> This bike has been to two shops this month--the first one didn't even
> consider the headset (it was loose when they returned it) and failed
> to properly tune the drivetrain while charging me north of $100 for
> their "recommended" deluxe tune-up. Not happy. At the second shop
> where I bought the bike I should have given it a quick test drive and
> I'm sure the mechanic (not a part-time kid in this instance) would
> have got the adjustment right, just wish I would have caught it before
> I took the bike home. This does speak to the need to do it yourself
> so today I'm out hunting for the wrenches. I have every intention of
> buying tools and learning how to do most of my own work. Our local
> bicycle collective offers a free Park Tool class and I'm looking
> forward to attending.
> This bike has been to two shops this month--the first one didn't even
> consider the headset (it was loose when they returned it) and failed
> to properly tune the drivetrain while charging me north of $100 for
> their "recommended" deluxe tune-up. Not happy. At the second shop
> where I bought the bike I should have given it a quick test drive and
> I'm sure the mechanic (not a part-time kid in this instance) would
> have got the adjustment right, just wish I would have caught it before
> I took the bike home. This does speak to the need to do it yourself
> so today I'm out hunting for the wrenches. I have every intention of
> buying tools and learning how to do most of my own work. Our local
> bicycle collective offers a free Park Tool class and I'm looking
> forward to attending.
A place to start:
http://bicycletutor.com/overhaul-threaded-headset/
I've found his videos to be easy to understand and "correct".
-sv
>
> On Jul 25, 9:13 am, George Schick <bhim...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> The OP's issue is exactly why I bought a lot of my own bike tools
>> decades ago. Seems like the LBS's have gotten worse over the years,
>> too, and I notice that many of them now employ part time kids. Can't
>> necessarily fault 'em for that; I realize they don't make a lot of
>> money. But if there are just some things that, if you want them done
>> right, you more or less have to take the bull by the horns yourself.
>>
>> On Jul 25, 12:45 am, Joe Bernard <joerem...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> > Too tight. If it only "indexed" at the straight-ahead position, you'd
>> > probably have a bigger problem, but tight all the way through the range of
>> > motion is a tight headset. If you have the wrenches, back off the locknut,
>> > loosen the headset cup a quarter turn, then hold that baby steady while you
>> > tighten the locknut back down. Keep doing this until the steering frees up.
>
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>
newenglandbike
Jul 25, 2011, 12:40:49 PM7/25/11
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Dunno if yours is a Tange or Shimano with the cages, but to prevent a notchy feeling in the headset some folks recommend removing the ball bearings from the bottom cage, adding enough to fill the void (save one or two), and re-installing the headset with the lower bearings 'loose' between the races.
Matt
Matt
Phil Bickford
Jul 25, 2011, 2:12:14 PM7/25/11
to RBW Owners Bunch
Hi Daren -
Getting the tools for the job sounds like a step in the right
direction.
I'd write off that first shop. The second shop, however should have
done the test ride themselves before they allowed you to take it home.
Doing an adjustment like this yourself is a good start in self
reliance. Get a book or read up on the web, or better yet have a real
mechanic show you how.
Phil B
Getting the tools for the job sounds like a step in the right
direction.
I'd write off that first shop. The second shop, however should have
done the test ride themselves before they allowed you to take it home.
Doing an adjustment like this yourself is a good start in self
reliance. Get a book or read up on the web, or better yet have a real
mechanic show you how.
Phil B
Darin G.
Jul 25, 2011, 4:12:48 PM7/25/11
to RBW Owners Bunch
So, dealt with three shops this a.m. Called the shop where I took the
bike the first time and they didn't have the tools for sale but
offered to order them. Called a second shop and they said they had
the tools but when I got there they didn't have them and when I
complained the manager said he meant he had tools for "shop use." He
offered to tear apart the headset if I left the bike for a week and
refused to consider that maybe the race just needed to be loosened a
scosche. No thanks. I let my kid climb on their water-bottle cage
display before I left to express my irritation. Third shop is in a
more exclusive neighborhood and emphasizes high-end brands for the
well-heeled who want to look well-heeled, but they are also the
Waterford/Gunnar dealer so I had high hopes. An awkward teenager
paced around the shop for thirty minutes looking for something to sell
me before the manager came in, grabbed a wrench, and adjusted it
nicely in about 30 seconds. Still, no wrenches to sell me but I
bought a couple of tubes in appreciation.
We'll see how this goes. I rode it around the block this afternoon
and declared the steering at least subjectively better. Hopefully the
adjustment will stick and I'll get many more miles of satisfying use
from this headset. I'm ordering the spanners.
Aside from what seems to be a satisfactory repair, the best part about
parading my leather-saddled, be-fendered, big-tired, taped-and-
shellacked handlebars, racks everywhere, Sam into bike shops is
watching the jaws hit floor. Its like driving an expedition-ready
Range Rover into a Kia dealership.
Matt: The graphics on the headset are mostly rubbed out but my
original purchase invoice says its a Tange. Seems like a lot of work
to address what seems like a design flaw. Wouldn't you just want to
replace it?
D.G.
bike the first time and they didn't have the tools for sale but
offered to order them. Called a second shop and they said they had
the tools but when I got there they didn't have them and when I
complained the manager said he meant he had tools for "shop use." He
offered to tear apart the headset if I left the bike for a week and
refused to consider that maybe the race just needed to be loosened a
scosche. No thanks. I let my kid climb on their water-bottle cage
display before I left to express my irritation. Third shop is in a
more exclusive neighborhood and emphasizes high-end brands for the
well-heeled who want to look well-heeled, but they are also the
Waterford/Gunnar dealer so I had high hopes. An awkward teenager
paced around the shop for thirty minutes looking for something to sell
me before the manager came in, grabbed a wrench, and adjusted it
nicely in about 30 seconds. Still, no wrenches to sell me but I
bought a couple of tubes in appreciation.
We'll see how this goes. I rode it around the block this afternoon
and declared the steering at least subjectively better. Hopefully the
adjustment will stick and I'll get many more miles of satisfying use
from this headset. I'm ordering the spanners.
Aside from what seems to be a satisfactory repair, the best part about
parading my leather-saddled, be-fendered, big-tired, taped-and-
shellacked handlebars, racks everywhere, Sam into bike shops is
watching the jaws hit floor. Its like driving an expedition-ready
Range Rover into a Kia dealership.
Matt: The graphics on the headset are mostly rubbed out but my
original purchase invoice says its a Tange. Seems like a lot of work
to address what seems like a design flaw. Wouldn't you just want to
replace it?
D.G.
newenglandbike
Jul 25, 2011, 5:55:24 PM7/25/11
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Darin, glad to hear you got it sorted out... I lol'd at the part where you left the shop in disgust, but not before letting your child climb on their water bottle display :D Anyway sounds like you found a pretty good shop in the process.
As far as the ball-bearing cages, my understanding is that they are an artifact of an earlier age of fine japanese bicycles, when the goal was to make assembly lighting quick. The cage simply keeps the bearings together so front-ends can be assembled without looking. By removing it, you can fit more bearings between the races, further distributing the load on the bearings. This is the way pedal bearings are arranged on most loose ball models- like MKS. Also, the bearings will have more room to 'float' which minimizes the likelihood that brinelling could happen. This is when the bearings wear little divets in the races where they make contact, especially on the lower races, a phenomenon which manifests itself in the form of indexed or notchy steering.
I've had this happen twice, and have been doing it on my bikes ever since, though only for the lower headset bearings. It is not that much trouble if you just use a lot of grease to keep the bearings in place while you carefully slide the fork into place. Once you do it you won't have to do it again.
-Matt
As far as the ball-bearing cages, my understanding is that they are an artifact of an earlier age of fine japanese bicycles, when the goal was to make assembly lighting quick. The cage simply keeps the bearings together so front-ends can be assembled without looking. By removing it, you can fit more bearings between the races, further distributing the load on the bearings. This is the way pedal bearings are arranged on most loose ball models- like MKS. Also, the bearings will have more room to 'float' which minimizes the likelihood that brinelling could happen. This is when the bearings wear little divets in the races where they make contact, especially on the lower races, a phenomenon which manifests itself in the form of indexed or notchy steering.
I've had this happen twice, and have been doing it on my bikes ever since, though only for the lower headset bearings. It is not that much trouble if you just use a lot of grease to keep the bearings in place while you carefully slide the fork into place. Once you do it you won't have to do it again.
-Matt
cyclotourist
Jul 25, 2011, 8:23:29 PM7/25/11
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It is really hard to find a competent LBS... :-(
--
Cheers,
David
Redlands, CA
...in terms of recreational cycling there are many riders who would probably benefit more from
improving their taste than from improving their performance. - RTMS
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Cheers,
David
Redlands, CA
...in terms of recreational cycling there are many riders who would probably benefit more from
improving their taste than from improving their performance. - RTMS
Joe Bernard
Jul 25, 2011, 8:37:43 PM7/25/11
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Most shop kids have never seen a threaded headset.
erik jensen
Jul 26, 2011, 5:38:51 PM7/26/11
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depends where you live.
--
oakland, ca
bikenoir.blogspot.com
On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 5:37 PM, Joe Bernard <joer...@gmail.com> wrote:
Most shop kids have never seen a threaded headset.
oakland, ca
bikenoir.blogspot.com
Ryan
Jul 27, 2011, 10:07:03 PM7/27/11
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Chris King..I think the 1" models 2-nut...not cheap I'll admit but can set it or have it set...and forget it.Your Riv and your piece of mind is worth the $. Go to a good LBS to get this properly installed though
I don't think it's a dumb idea to spend good money for precision-made parts (that maybe you don't notice so much)..Just my opinion....good luck...having a poorly adjusted headset is a serious pain in the ass and can be hazardous too...definitely spoils a nice ride
I don't think it's a dumb idea to spend good money for precision-made parts (that maybe you don't notice so much)..Just my opinion....good luck...having a poorly adjusted headset is a serious pain in the ass and can be hazardous too...definitely spoils a nice ride
Peter Pesce
Jul 28, 2011, 9:56:45 AM7/28/11
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I had a good LBS install a Chris King on my Sam over the winter after the original Tange started feeling wonky. Granted, the Tange was installed by Riv but set-up by me, which easily explains the issue! ;)
The Chris King is beautiful. I agree with Ryan that going with the best for parts you rarely think about is at least as important as for the high-profile parts. Who wants to worry about a headset, BB or hub every time they go for a ride?
The Chris King is beautiful. I agree with Ryan that going with the best for parts you rarely think about is at least as important as for the high-profile parts. Who wants to worry about a headset, BB or hub every time they go for a ride?
Rene Sterental
Jul 28, 2011, 10:00:31 AM7/28/11
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I have a CK headset on my Atlantis and am considering it's replacement since the bike shimmies a lot at speed. I read CK headsets were notorious for enhancing shimmy.
I've read here that shimmy is significantly reduced by ball and something types of headsets. If anyone can point me in the right direction, I'd be appreciative.
Rene
Sent from my iPhone 4
Sent from my iPhone 4
I had a good LBS install a Chris King on my Sam over the winter after the original Tange started feeling wonky. Granted, the Tange was installed by Riv but set-up by me, which easily explains the issue! ;)
The Chris King is beautiful. I agree with Ryan that going with the best for parts you rarely think about is at least as important as for the high-profile parts. Who wants to worry about a headset, BB or hub every time they go for a ride?
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Peter Pesce
Jul 28, 2011, 10:25:09 AM7/28/11
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I think Jan Heine once said needle bearing headsets help.
I read somewhere that the one he prefers (Miche, I think?) is, of course, out of production.
I read somewhere that the one he prefers (Miche, I think?) is, of course, out of production.
Rene Sterental
Jul 28, 2011, 1:49:13 PM7/28/11
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That was the term... Needle bearing headsets!
Does anyone know where they can be found?
Thanks Pete!
On Thu, Jul 28, 2011 at 7:25 AM, Peter Pesce <pete...@gmail.com> wrote:
I think Jan Heine once said needle bearing headsets help.
I read somewhere that the one he prefers (Miche, I think?) is, of course, out of production.
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Ryan Watson
Jul 28, 2011, 1:54:45 PM7/28/11
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The Miche needle bearing headset is, as far as I know, still available. Rene Herse/Boulder Bikes has them. It totally cured my Shimmy Monster (650B Boulder All-Road prototype)
Ryan
I think Jan Heine once said needle bearing headsets help.
I read somewhere that the one he prefers (Miche, I think?) is, of course, out of production.
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Steve Palincsar
Jul 28, 2011, 2:02:25 PM7/28/11
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On Thu, 2011-07-28 at 10:49 -0700, Rene Sterental wrote:
> That was the term... Needle bearing headsets!
>
> Does anyone know where they can be found?
> That was the term... Needle bearing headsets!
>
> Does anyone know where they can be found?
In addition to the Miche, there's also the VO Roller Bearing headset:
http://store.velo-orange.com/index.php/components/headsets/vo-roller-bearing-headset-1-threaded.html
Peter Pesce
Jul 28, 2011, 2:10:46 PM7/28/11
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Thanks. Sorry for the mis-information.
I should know better than to repeat something I read on the internet somewhere! :)
I should know better than to repeat something I read on the internet somewhere! :)
René Sterental
Jul 28, 2011, 3:46:12 PM7/28/11
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I have found the Miche Primato threaded headset online. Is this the only Miche headset or are there different models for our Riv bikes?
René
Rex Kerr
Jul 28, 2011, 7:14:54 PM7/28/11
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Years ago my first LBS bike had a threaded headset which kept coming lose. I took it back to the shop where I bought it multiple times, and finally he just cranked it down tight. (On a side note, the cup/cone BB kept coming loose too, so perhaps he didn't know anything about bearing adjustment).
Anyhow... that headset was quickly "ruined" and severely indexed... by this time I knew a lot more about what I was doing, so I pulled out the bearings in the cages and put in bearings of the next size so that they wouldn't line up with the divets, and rode it for a long time after that. It worked quite smoothly, and I've since given the bike away and it's still being ridden that way.
You might not want to do such a hack job on your SH, but it worked fine for a cheapest level bike shop bike. :-)
On Thu, Jul 28, 2011 at 12:46 PM, René Sterental <orth...@gmail.com> wrote:
I have found the Miche Primato threaded headset online. Is this the only Miche headset or are there different models for our Riv bikes?René
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Brett Lindenbach
Jul 29, 2011, 2:55:01 PM7/29/11
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I believe that Stronglight makes (or made) really nice ones. I have one on my Blériot.
René Sterental
Jul 29, 2011, 3:59:14 PM7/29/11
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Thank you!
I found the apparently discountinued Stronglight A9 online in WI and ordered one to give it a try.
René
Steve Palincsar
Jul 29, 2011, 4:08:58 PM7/29/11
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Unless you found the cartridge bearing headset that was introduced after
the roller bearing headset of the same name was distcontinued...
René Sterental
Jul 29, 2011, 4:16:55 PM7/29/11
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So you mean that this might not be the needle bearing one? Bummer!
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Brett Lindenbach
Jul 29, 2011, 4:19:28 PM7/29/11
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great! you won't be disappointed. apparently these things never index.
bon apetit!
bon apetit!
jamison brosseau
Jul 29, 2011, 7:20:32 PM7/29/11
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i doubt a new headset will cure shimmy. most of the time its not really a big deal.
Darin G.
Jul 31, 2011, 9:59:49 PM7/31/11
to RBW Owners Bunch
So, gave the Sam a few rides after adjusting the headset and it
started indexing again, primarily in the dead-ahead position, and
resumed scaring the hell out of me twisty curves. So I decided to
just replace the headset. Had the shop that built the bike install an
IRD Interloc as opposed to the bearing swap discussed above. I
ultimately decided this wasn't something I wanted to do again anytime
soon and given that a considerable portion of the cost is labor which
I don't feel presently competent to do myself I just went ahead and
replaced it. Frankly, I'd have sprung for the Chris King if one had
been available for immediate install. I now appreciate that bikes are
subject to considerable stress in the headset and for me the peace of
mind factor is worth the upgrade.
Examination of the old headset indeed revealed signs of brinelling. I
was surprised that such a small defect in the surface of the race
could have such a pronounced effect on handling. Thank you Mark and
Steve at Saturday Cycles in Salt Lake City for getting it done so I
can take my Sam to Durango this week!
started indexing again, primarily in the dead-ahead position, and
resumed scaring the hell out of me twisty curves. So I decided to
just replace the headset. Had the shop that built the bike install an
IRD Interloc as opposed to the bearing swap discussed above. I
ultimately decided this wasn't something I wanted to do again anytime
soon and given that a considerable portion of the cost is labor which
I don't feel presently competent to do myself I just went ahead and
replaced it. Frankly, I'd have sprung for the Chris King if one had
been available for immediate install. I now appreciate that bikes are
subject to considerable stress in the headset and for me the peace of
mind factor is worth the upgrade.
Examination of the old headset indeed revealed signs of brinelling. I
was surprised that such a small defect in the surface of the race
could have such a pronounced effect on handling. Thank you Mark and
Steve at Saturday Cycles in Salt Lake City for getting it done so I
can take my Sam to Durango this week!
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