"Bastardizing" a bike and its fit - idea of. A discussion.

[Michael]

I was in an LBS (now defunct), and the owner pointed out how a traded in road bike/fit had been "bastardized" by the previous owner by using a bent shafted seatpost for more setback.

The owner was pointing out how the bike was too small a size for the customer, and the bike owner had to resort to this.

 

I have been wondering. Is there really such a thing as "bastardising" a bike/fit to get yourself where you are comfy on a bike?

 

I don't design bikes, so the only two of things I could imagine you could do on a bike that might be considered to have "bastardising", negative effects might be:

 

1. "Geometric Bastardization" - Altering the intended geometry of a bike? Would it throw off the benefits of what the rest of that frame's geometry was intended for, resulting in a worse ride quality? Like using high flat bars on a modern time trial bike, or something to that effect.

 

2. "Aesthetic Bastardization" - might be if you put, say, a one-piece, full carbon drop bar/stem assembly on a cruiser bike?

 

Other than that, I cannot see how improving comfort would be bastardizing anything. Of course, getting the right frame size from the beginning would eliminate the need to go to extremes for people.

[Ron Mc]

I think every modern "tech" bike looks bastardized for fit - roadie, mountain.  It looks like they're making undersized frames on purpose and slapping 400 mm seatposts on every one

[C.J. Filip]

I bastardized my first Riv, a 56cm Atlantis with a Thomson setback
seatpost.  Turns out the Nitto seatpost originally on there had
more setback to begin with, but I was at the min insertion with
the Nitto.

When I initially measured my PBH, there was some of kind bias
because I had already found a bike for sale.  I wanted my PBH to be
85cm, the maximum prescribed measurement for a 56 Atlantis.  When the
bike arrived (used, third owner) I even set the saddle height to
74.5, again per the measurement prescription.  The seat was not even
pushed back all the way in the rails.  The bike fit and rode
wonderfully. And then something happened.

After about 4 months of riding the bike, the bastardization began. 
During every ride, the seat would get a little higher, the
saddle would get pushed back a little further, the stem a little
higher.  Swapping out pedals for lower profile ones to get saddle
height back down.  Wanting longer stems and Noodle bars (over Dream)
for a further reach.  Adding the Thomson post from the parts bin for
greater height.  Putting on 50mm tires and wondering for 55s might fit
to make the bike feel and ride higher.  The height of
bastardization: http://www.flickr.com/photos/69091655@N08/7174996127/.
 I wasn't happy with how it looked anymore and rode it less, forcing
myself to believe it was all wrong, too small and just move on.

I traded for a 59cm Hilsen frame.  While tearing the Atlantis down,
I put the saddle height and stem to aesthetically pleasing positions.
 I would need to be well on the small side of prescribed fit to get
the bike looking right in my mind.

The Atlantis is now being loved by another list member far
less fickle than I.  The Hilsen fit is darn near perfect and the
honeymoon is well over having ridden it several hundred miles this
summer.  The need for geometric and aesthetic bastardization would
have been abated if my initial PBH measurements were correct and I
waited for a bigger bike to come along.

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

A setback seatpost is hardly "extreme", but among roadie (faux racer) purists like this defunct LBS owner, any change to the stock part spec had better have a purported speed/efficiency benefit, or what's the point? I recently posted a pic of a 2TT Hillborne on facebook. One of my racer-boy buddies asked "two top tubes? what's the point of that?" He can't conceive of a bike design that deliberately makes the bike heavier, so he secretly wondered if there was some secret he was missing.

On Thursday, November 1, 2012 12:08:13 AM UTC-5, Michael wrote:

[Ron Mc]

ha - it's a conspiracy

[Jeremy Till]

Well, if there is such a thing as geometric bastardization, I'm guilty of multiple counts.  Probably the worst is my Trek 520, which I bought long before I knew much of anything about geometry, fit, etc.  To make matters worse, I was in love with flared drop bars like the On-One Midge, which needed to get up high to be comfortable, and I had long ago cut the fork way short.  This was the result, pictured on a Riv ride a few years ago.  Midge bars, hi-rise stem on steerer tube extender.  The thing is....it worked great!  It fit me (in terms of the contact points being in the right place, if not fitting the frame well) and I rode many comfortable miles like that.  I also had an old bastardized low-end schwinn road bike with slack angles that I made even slacker by using a long touring fork, and built up as a townie fixed gear.  That was totally weird but again, was one of the nicest riding bikes I've ever owned, so much so that I regret selling it and am looking around for one of those frames so I can try it again*. 

I think that this whole "bastardization" thing is basically a normative response built into the culture of cycling, perhaps supporting successive bike purchases until you find the "one" (as if that's possible) that meets your particular aesthetic and fit ideas.  And by all means, if you have the resources to do so, finding the "one" can be a rewarding experience, as many on here have shown.  But my point is this....if your resources are limited such that modification makes more financial sense than buying a new frame or bike, don't be afraid to try out-of-the-box things with a bike you already own, even if you feel it goes against some "rules" of aesthetics or bike design.  If nothing else, experimenting with a current bike can tell you what to look for in your next bike. 

And remember that beauty is in the eye of the beholder.  While the Atlantis in CJ's picture might have been the "height" of bastardization for him, to me it looks really nicely proportioned.  Maybe that's because I've spent a lot of time pouring over pictures of old drop bar 26" MTB's, and that Atlantis seems to have similar lines. 

Another thing...I bet the "bent shafted seatpost" in question was a Thomson, which many people complain about being weird for having "so much setback," when in truth the setback Thomson only has about 16mm of setback, less than many "normal" setback seatposts which are usually in the 20-25mm range, including the popular nittos and the so ubiquitous as to be unnoticeable kalloy laprade.  I bet the LBS owner in question wouldn't have batted an eye if the bike had come in with a seatpost like this one, which at 32.5mm of setback has twice that of the Thomson.  So really, it's just that a lot of people are put off by the aesthetics of the Thomson.  I love 'em.  Great clamp hardware.

*Anybody have a 1989 or 1990 Schwinn World Sport in the 25"/62cm size?

[Jim Mather]

On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 9:29 AM, Jeremy Till <jerem...@gmail.com> wrote:

*Anybody have a 1989 or 1990 Schwinn World Sport in the 25"/62cm size?

There are a couple of big ones on Ebay but I don't know what year they are.

 

[Matt Beebe]

Yeah a lot of people don't realize that there is zero offset between the guts of the Thomson seatpost and the shaft.   The layback version of the Thomson just gets you back into conventional 'laprade' style seatpost territory in terms of setback.

[Marc Schwartz]

BASTARDS RULE!

Marc (Lazy Bastard) Schwartz
LC, NM
________________________________________
From: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com [rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com] on behalf of Jeremy Till [jerem...@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2012 10:29 AM
To: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [RBW] Re: "Bastardizing" a bike and its fit - idea of. A discussion.

Well, if there is such a thing as geometric bastardization, I'm guilty of multiple counts. Probably the worst is my Trek 520, which I bought long before I knew much of anything about geometry, fit, etc. To make matters worse, I was in love with flared drop bars like the On-One Midge, which needed to get up high to be comfortable, and I had long ago cut the fork way short. This was the result<http://www.flickr.com/photos/jimg/4026122717/in/set-72157622495201619>, pictured on a Riv ride a few years ago. Midge bars, hi-rise stem on steerer tube extender. The thing is....it worked great! It fit me (in terms of the contact points being in the right place, if not fitting the frame well) and I rode many comfortable miles like that. I also had an old bastardized low-end schwinn road bike with slack angles that I made even slacker by using a long touring fork, and built up as a townie fixed gear. That was totally weird but again, was one of the nicest riding bikes I've ever owned, so much so that I regret selling it and am looking around for one of those frames so I can try it again*.

I think that this whole "bastardization" thing is basically a normative response built into the culture of cycling, perhaps supporting successive bike purchases until you find the "one" (as if that's possible) that meets your particular aesthetic and fit ideas. And by all means, if you have the resources to do so, finding the "one" can be a rewarding experience, as many on here have shown. But my point is this....if your resources are limited such that modification makes more financial sense than buying a new frame or bike, don't be afraid to try out-of-the-box things with a bike you already own, even if you feel it goes against some "rules" of aesthetics or bike design. If nothing else, experimenting with a current bike can tell you what to look for in your next bike.

And remember that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. While the Atlantis in CJ's picture might have been the "height" of bastardization for him, to me it looks really nicely proportioned. Maybe that's because I've spent a lot of time pouring over pictures of old drop bar 26" MTB's, and that Atlantis seems to have similar lines.

Another thing...I bet the "bent shafted seatpost" in question was a Thomson, which many people complain about being weird for having "so much setback," when in truth the setback Thomson only has about 16mm of setback, less than many "normal" setback seatposts which are usually in the 20-25mm range, including the popular nittos and the so ubiquitous as to be unnoticeable kalloy laprade. I bet the LBS owner in question wouldn't have batted an eye if the bike had come in with a seatpost like this one<http://images1.excelcycle.com/images/P/fsa-components-k-force-seatpost-32mm-set-back.jpg>, which at 32.5mm of setback has twice that of the Thomson. So really, it's just that a lot of people are put off by the aesthetics of the Thomson. I love 'em. Great clamp hardware.

*Anybody have a 1989 or 1990 Schwinn World Sport in the 25"/62cm size?

On Wednesday, October 31, 2012 10:08:13 PM UTC-7, Michael wrote:
I was in an LBS (now defunct), and the owner pointed out how a traded in road bike/fit had been "bastardized" by the previous owner by using a bent shafted seatpost for more setback.
The owner was pointing out how the bike was too small a size for the customer, and the bike owner had to resort to this.

I have been wondering. Is there really such a thing as "bastardising" a bike/fit to get yourself where you are comfy on a bike?

I don't design bikes, so the only two of things I could imagine you could do on a bike that might be considered to have "bastardising", negative effects might be:

1. "Geometric Bastardization" - Altering the intended geometry of a bike? Would it throw off the benefits of what the rest of that frame's geometry was intended for, resulting in a worse ride quality? Like using high flat bars on a modern time trial bike, or something to that effect.

2. "Aesthetic Bastardization" - might be if you put, say, a one-piece, full carbon drop bar/stem assembly on a cruiser bike?

Other than that, I cannot see how improving comfort would be bastardizing anything. Of course, getting the right frame size from the beginning would eliminate the need to go to extremes for people.

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[Ron Mc]

I couldn't keep my B17 far enough forward on my LaPrade-offset seatpost when I switched to tall quill and moustache bars.  On long rides, my saddle would slide on the rails toward the rear as much as 3/4-inch (I'm the guy with gibbon-like arms they built all those Italian cars for - and long legs - relatively short body, all adding up to 6'3").  When I recently went to a Thomson zero-offset, it solved my problem - my perfect position is with the saddle all the way back in the Thomson.  

[PATRICK MOORE]

Jeremy: well said. Even that Trek doesn't look horrible, and CJ's Atlantis actually looks quite good to my eyes except for the excessively fat tires. I used a similar seatpost for a Flyer when others would not give me enough setback.

My brother scored a beautiful 57 cm square Sequoia that is ***just my size*** and selfishly kept it for himself; he's 4" taller at 6'2". He set it up with a longish post and a 11 cm Tech Deluxe and swears it fits him perfectly. (He has more experience than most bike shop employees when it comes to buying, building, and fitting bikes, so I believe him. Of course, he can comfortably ride a bar 3" below saddle, which I no longer can.)

My earliest builds, 15- 16, were truly bastards. My first build had a frame incompatible with the wheels, so there were no brakes except my right Ked shoved into the fork blades on top of the tire -- I put hundreds of not thousands of miles on that one. About the same time, I converted my brother's kid's bike (he was far smaller than I, back then) using a piece of pipe for a seatpost supported by struts from a wheelbarrow running between seatpost clamp bolts and rear axle. I also adapted Raleigh Sports brake levers to drop bars by beating them with a hammer until they submitted to the right curve, then covered the damage with decorative plastic covers. A contemporaneous build involved tack welding a second sprocket to an AW driver to convert an old Varsity to six speeds.

And listmember RS Watson bastardized an Electra cruiser with fat, 650B tires, a sprung Brooks and a fixed drivetrain -- wonderful bike!

Frankly, I think intelligent bastardization often ends up probably more practical and certainly better looking than modern racing bikes, most of which I've seen are ugly. I can't judge their comfort or handling or fit, since I've never ridden one.

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For professional resumes, contact Patrick Moore, ACRW
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