Nine Speed Friction & Ghost Shifting Reconsidered.

[Michael Hechmer]

Out riding on my Rambouillet yesterday, which has Silver DT shifters, I got a ghost shift.  This happens rarely, every 35-50 miles or so, enough that I usually just chalk it up to user error.  But this time I got to thinking about why this works so well for me while others have so much difficulty.

I have four bikes with Silver shifters, my Ram and old racing bike have DT shifters, and two touring bikes, an Ebisu and an old Trek have BE shifters.  I realized that I do seem to have some more issues with the touring bikes, ghost shifts every 10-15 miles.  This is annoying, but not enough for me to want to give up either 9 speed or friction.  For a long time I thought the difference seemed to be in where the shifters were located and wondered if I got more cable stretch, and noticed that the BEs have a tendency to loosen the D ring a bit.  But yesterday I realized that the placement of the shifters has nothing to do with the difference in performance.

To make  9 speed friction work I always use good cassettes, good chains and good deraillers. All four bikes have hi end cassettes and conex 908 chains, kept clean and replaced when needed.   The difference in performance that I am seeing is in the derailler.  The two bikes with DT shifters have compact doubles and relatively short range deraillers - Ultegra 6700, which is a short cage derailler designed for CDs & the standard 6600 derailler designed (I think) for 29 teeth.  Both of these work well across the 31 & 29 teeth of the two bikes.  The touring bikes have triple cranks and a 38 tooth range, which of course requires a derailler with a much longer cage.  I use the Ultegra  racing triple derailler on one and a mid length Centaur on the other.  These cages are much shorter than the mt bike deraillers, like the XT,  and very long cage Centaur, which are designed for 45 teeth  or more.  It seems obvious to me as I think about it that as the cage gets longer the possibility of mis-allignment gets greater, which is what causes ghost shifts.

So, it looks to me, that to make friction work well with 9 speed the bike should have good components and the shortest cage that will work with the gear range needed.  I have found that the mid range deraillers will handle my set up (48/34/26 & 12-28) with some occasional failures.  I expect that riders who want an even wider range will have increased ghost shifts if they use friction.

Michael

[PATRICK MOORE]

One thing to consider when shifting closer spaced cogs is the greater
precision of newer rear derailleurs compared to older ones. I was
surprised at how badly the 8 sp XT rd shifted compared to the 9 sp era
LX, and my brother tells me that 6 sp era Shimano rds are even less
precise.

When I first installed the XT (because I didn't like the reverse pull
of the LX) I was convinced it was worn because I could not get it to
sit smoothly on certain cogs, at least without a lot of fiddling with
the shifter. I later learned the technique and, with that, it shifts
fine, but the LX was definitely more precise. Cheapest 9 sp SRAM
chain, silvers.

That said, I had no problem with an 8 sp Dura Ace rd on Am Classic and
Shimano 10 sp cassettes -- using a Connex chain.

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[Brian Hanson]

Thanks for the details, Michael - nice write up.  I had given up on anything over 8 speed with friction a while ago.  If I ever come into a short cage derailler, I may try again.  I'm on index at this point with the shimano shifters and haven't thought about it, but I certainly appreciate the feel of friction more.  Nice easy shifting without the annoying "clunk" of index.

Brian

Seattle, WA

Michael

[ted]

I am not convinced that rd cage length is the culprit here.
The extra length is from the pivot to the lower idler wheel isn't it?
The top idler wheel is in pretty much the same place and thats the one
driving how the chain comes at the cluster.
What mechanism do you think causes the long cage models to be less
precise?

[David T.]

 

I was thinking the other day, it is remarkable in this day and age when we can pretend to put a man on the moon, we can’t get derailleurs to shift just right.

:-)

If it is the rear derailleur ghost shifting, it may be that the shifter isn’t tightened enough. Or there is too much extraneous friction between the shifter and derailleur, but with downtube shifter that shouldn’t be hard to clean up.

If it is the front derailleur, with silver shifters it will shift onto the smaller chainwheel if you stand and grind up a hill. Get a shimano-7700, it has a spring to prevent that from happening.

 

 

[Scot Brooks]

Embarrassingly, I have an absolutely awful time getting precise shifting with my Gran Compe shifter/LX SGS RD/Shimano 12-36t 9-speed cassette combo. Almost every time I stand up, I get the sickening crunch type downshift. I have non-ratcheting Shimano 600 friction shifters/Deore SGS RD on my other bike and I never ever ever ever get the same thing. My ears can't really do their job since the city is so loud, so I do a lot of the old look-between-my-legs move when riding the bike with the ratcheting shifters. I'll put it down to technique, but I'm baffled by it and don't know what to do to improve it.

[Brian Hanson]

Drop the cassette to 7 or 8 speed.  I found that worked well in the city - easier to do by feel...  That or try Michael's suggestion of going to a short cage derailler.  Either way it means a new cassette :(

Brian 

Seattle, WA

On Sat, Aug 25, 2012 at 11:42 AM, Scot Brooks <scothi...@gmail.com> wrote:

Embarrassingly, I have an absolutely awful time getting precise shifting with my Gran Compe shifter/LX SGS RD/Shimano 12-36t 9-speed cassette combo. Almost every time I stand up, I get the sickening crunch type downshift. I have non-ratcheting Shimano 600 friction shifters/Deore SGS RD on my other bike and I never ever ever ever get the same thing. My ears can't really do their job since the city is so loud, so I do a lot of the old look-between-my-legs move when riding the bike with the ratcheting shifters. I'll put it down to technique, but I'm baffled by it and don't know what to do to improve it.

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[Steve Palincsar]

On Sat, 2012-08-25 at 11:42 -0700, Scot Brooks wrote:
> Embarrassingly, I have an absolutely awful time getting precise shifting with my Gran Compe shifter/LX SGS RD/Shimano 12-36t 9-speed cassette combo. Almost every time I stand up, I get the sickening crunch type downshift. I have non-ratcheting Shimano 600 friction shifters/Deore SGS RD on my other bike and I never ever ever ever get the same thing. My ears can't really do their job since the city is so loud, so I do a lot of the old look-between-my-legs move when riding the bike with the ratcheting shifters. I'll put it down to technique, but I'm baffled by it and don't know what to do to improve it.

Try switching to a 7 speed cassette.

[Michael Hechmer]

Seven speed can be a good solution for a friction triple. I commuted on a 7 sped freewheel for many years and it worked fine for me.  But 7 spd cassettes are rare, generally of lower quality and often have very big jumps between cog sizes.   I like the availability of 12-27 & 11-28  9 speed cassettes, which allows me to drop the size of the big ring.  A 13/52, 12/48, and 11/44 all provide the same hi gear; but the options for a lower gear, with a good shifting pattern increase dramatically.  My Rambouillet (do the French seem to use up a lot of the worlds supply of vowels or what!) has a 44/30 and an 11/28.  The hi gear launches me and the low gear equals a racing triple, enough for me to sustain 8% climbs and manage 10% ramps without too much difficulty.  If I know I will need to sustain 10% or more than I need lower gears, which means going to a triple.   With 7 speed I get wider steps and different steps which may be just as important to me.  This is not the end of cycling joy by any means, but everything is a tradeoff.

Our tandem has a 9 speed, 11-32, cassettes (and DA, indexed BE shifters) and I sometimes find myself wishing I could find the gear between,  but given the uphill limitations of a 400+ lb loaded tandem, I live with it and don't complain.

I do have a fear that 9 speed could suffer the same commercial fate as 7 & 8 speed.  I'm hoarding cassettes, and always buy an extra smallest cog, since that seems to be what wears out first.

Michael,

just back from a couple of hours canoeing on Little &  Big  Hosmer Ponds, in the NE Kingdom of VT.

[Steve Palincsar]

On Sat, 2012-08-25 at 14:05 -0700, Michael Hechmer wrote:
> Seven speed can be a good solution for a friction triple. I commuted
> on a 7 sped freewheel for many years and it worked fine for me. But 7
> spd cassettes are rare, generally of lower quality and often have very
> big jumps between cog sizes. I like the availability of 12-27 &
> 11-28 9 speed cassettes, which allows me to drop the size of the big
> ring. A 13/52, 12/48, and 11/44 all provide the same hi gear; but the
> options for a lower gear, with a good shifting pattern increase
> dramatically.

Trade-offs, and individual preferences. All those provide a high gear
that for me is uselessly high. For me, 52x14, 48x13, 44x12 are all the
top gear I need, except for a tandem. I've got 20/32/44 x 12-27 on one
bike, and I wouldn't go there again in future.

For me, aside from improved friction shifting, a big advantage of 7
speed is the availability of 14-32, 13-30 and 13-34 cassettes. 14-32 x
39/53 is amazingly nice on a 650B city bike or commuter.

> My Rambouillet (do the French seem to use up a lot of the worlds
> supply of vowels or what!) has a 44/30 and an 11/28. The hi gear
> launches me and the low gear equals a racing triple, enough for me to
> sustain 8% climbs and manage 10% ramps without too much difficulty.
> If I know I will need to sustain 10% or more than I need lower gears,
> which means going to a triple. With 7 speed I get wider steps and
> different steps which may be just as important to me. This is not the
> end of cycling joy by any means, but everything is a tradeoff.

> I do have a fear that 9 speed could suffer the same commercial fate as
> 7 & 8 speed. I'm hoarding cassettes, and always buy an extra smallest
> cog, since that seems to be what wears out first.

The "commercial fate" of 7 speed is the chrome cassettes are now
unavailable, but the black ones are all still available. Not so pretty,
but functionally just as good. That's not the case with 8: in the past
2 or 3 years virtually all the 8 speed combinations have gone. Only
11-x are still in available, and for me 11 only makes sense if you have
a 20" wheel.

I find it amazing that you wear out 11T sprockets. I have 13T sprockets
I've been using (on 12-27 --> 13-30 9 speed conversions) that I've been
using since 2005 that are still fine. I'm amazed your 11s get any wear
at all, since (as already noted) 11 x anything is so high as to be
absolutely useless on anything but a small-wheeler. You aren't spending
a lot of time in the 11x30, are you?


>

[Michael Hechmer]

I find it amazing that you wear out 11T sprockets.  I have 13T sprockets
I've been using (on 12-27 --> 13-30 9 speed conversions) that I've been
using since 2005 that are still fine.  I'm amazed your 11s get any wear
at all, since (as already noted) 11 x anything is so high as to be
absolutely useless on anything but a small-wheeler.  You aren't spending
a lot of time in the 11x30, are you?

 

 In Vt, there is a lot of rolling terrain.  Riding on this is a lot like skiing mogels; it's best to be aggressive.   A lot of downhill speed can help  power one over the next roller.  Even my wife, who is vertically challenged and has a fear of heights hasn't gotten tuned into hi speed downhills as the easy answer to the next up hill.  That's why I describe the 12/48 as a launch gear.  Most useful at the very top and bottom of hills.  I spend  little, but very productive time,  in my  11/44 or 12/48 gear.

These smaller cogs wear out faster not because we use them a lot, but because they spin so fast each tooth gets used many more times than the the 27 does going uphill.  Also, because of the tight circumference these ultra small cogs are more sensitive to wear than larger cogs and begin to slip with less wear than a big cog will. Even so, they outlast many chains. Still, it' not a big deal... unless I can't get a good 9 spd cassette.

Michael

 

 

[Phil Bickford]

Thanks for writing up your experiences with these different and quite interesting bikes. I could never get the Silvers to work for me. I wish Grant had gone one (big) step more in engineering and designed them with a ratcheting action like the Suntour Bar-ends I had on some of my older bikes. They seem to shift quite nicely with a soft tick or two and ghost shift far less. YMMV.

I'm sort of fascinated with the level of precision you expect from an ancient and obsolete system of tightening of a cable, and from the human hand after hours of riding. And all this on a system with narrow spacing and thining sprockets. If I was using friction shifting of any kind, I'd be reaching to tighten up the D ring every time I stood up to pedal.

It would drive me bonkers speculating what else could be hampering my shifting, there are so many variables. I would first have to convince myself the derailler was up to the job, then study the cable routing and stops also being sure the cables inside your Ferrells are cut and ground cleanly to eliminate any chance of movement. Frayed or broken wire strands? Got some kind of guide for the cables over the bottom bracket?

It might be enough to convince me to go back to five speed cassettes.

My last cable shifting derailler bike was Campy Chorus, so I've already gone over to the dark side. But, considering what my expectations would be comparing that with the old way, I'm afraid I'd be disappointed too much of the time with friction.

Keep up the fight, and be comfortable with whatever you ride with.

Phil B

[Steve Palincsar]

On Sat, 2012-08-25 at 15:41 -0700, Phil Bickford wrote:
>
> It might be enough to convince me to go back to five speed cassettes.

AFAIK there never were five speed cassettes.

[PATRICK MOORE]

Very interesting; I find the Silvers far better than the old SunTour
Power Rachets; in fact, the Silvers are the best BES I've ever used. I
don't have a problem with them loosening. I use them off road, too.
Perhaps I just have lower expectations? I am pretty sure I shift less
than most multi-speed riders. Also, my smallest cogs are 15 and 16
(two wheelsets); I wonder if you ghost shift less with bigger cogs?

FWIW, too, when I friction shift modern 9 and 10 sp cassettes,
everything certainly works better than with the old 5 speed fws I've
used, at least using modern, early-index derailleurs: shifting old
SunTour 6 speed and old Miscellaneous 5 speed fws on the trike with a
Simplex retrofriction and a mid '80s Shimano slant parallel was an
exercise in patience and planning ahead. OTOH, I found the stem
shift/Huret Alvit/5 speed wide range fw setup on a former Collegiate
to shift just fine.

Ultimate indexing: flip the wheel; or, even better, stand up and honk.

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[Michael Hechmer]

Sorry about your experience Phil.  Mine has been quite different.

I spent nearly 20 years riding and racing with Campy DT shifters and NR deraillers.  They had a definite overshift and it became second nature to me to shift pass the gear (first 6 & then 7 spd freewheels) and back a smidge.  In 1998 or 9 I was having a hard time getting good freewheels (they have since made a comeback) and made a big investment to go to Ultegra 9 spd.  The LBS was emphatic that I would be "in shifters hell" with 9  spd friction.  So I reconfigured 2 bikes into 9 speed triples with Ultegra SIS brifters.  Instead, I found myself constantly fussing with the front shifter.  And I found myself bored by the whole experience.  Some how, much like my car, shifting felt integral to the experience.  So I went back to friction, this time with Silvers.  I have never regretted it nor do I ever think of it as "obsolete."  In fact, my experience has been that friction shifters are much easier to set up and maintain than Shimano brifters.  When I chat with casual riders, they often tell me they need to take their bikes to a good mechanic when the shifting becomes erratic.  This doesn't sound easier to me.

I have no experience with Campy indexed, other than V1 Chorus, which was awful. 

Riding with a 31 TT double I rarely, virtually never, need to fuss with the setup.  New cables stretch out, as they do on all systems,  and then I adjust the system.  After that I just ride.  I began this post with the hope of helping people who were struggling with this.  I believe it is excellent, but probably has functional limitations.  What's most important is what doesn't interfere with the joy you put into riding.  Do what works for you.

Michael

[Eric Daume]

This dearth of 8 speed cassettes had me momentarily worried, until I saw it wasn't so.  For instance, here's a range of 12-21 thru 13-26:

http://www.universalcycles.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=12017&category=42

in addition to all the usual 11-something.

Which is comforting, because 8 speed is the sweet spot for me.

Eric Daume
Dublin, OH

On Sat, Aug 25, 2012 at 5:34 PM, Steve Palincsar <pali...@his.com> wrote:

The "commercial fate" of 7 speed is the chrome cassettes are now
unavailable, but the black ones are all still available.  Not so pretty,
but functionally just as good.  That's not the case with 8: in the past
2 or 3 years virtually all the 8 speed combinations have gone.  Only
11-x are still in available, and for me 11 only makes sense if you have
a 20" wheel.

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[Eric Platt]

I've been using friction shifting with nine speed on one bike.  With caveats, it's upright bars and a ca. 1988 Shimano XT thumb shifter.  With that shifter 9 speeds doesn't seem to be an issue.  It's a 12-36 paired with a 39t front and using a regular Deore long cage derailleur.

 

Have not had an problems since setting it up.  Also don't seem to experience ghost shifting, but maybe because I'm not that strong of a rider.

 

Then again, as this is on a non-Rivendell bike, my observation is off topic

 

Eric Platt

St. Paul, MN

[lungimsam]

I use a 10speed cassette and I have trouble with ghost shifting in gears 2-5.

I basically use 1, somewhere in the middle of the casette, and then 10.

 

When it comes time for cog/chain replacement, I am going to switch to a 7-speed casette, if the LBS thinks it'll work with my Ultegra derailer. 

[Stonehog]

Those '88 XT thumbies are the business!

Mobile Brian Hanson

[Cyclofiend Jim]

The other thing which helped me (apologies because I've commented about this before) was to swap the pulleys on the rear derailleur. 

Newer RD's are designed to have float in the top pulley, which by nature makes any direct-touch (i.e. "non-indexed") system imprecise.  The cogsets on the current setups are designed to make the chain shift. The chains are super flexible and designed to shift. The float in the upper top pulley is designed to compensate for an automatic shifter being in the wrong spot.  All those things make it increasingly tricky to have a "feel" of when the chain is about to shift.

Of course, these new-fangled wire-connected derailleurs are just a fad anyway... ;^)  (viva Quickbeam!)

- Jim

cyclofiend.com / cyclo...@gmail.com