Signal police

[Brian Hanson]

I was riding home yesterday, and a fellow pulled up behind me and politely suggested that the cars would be better able to see my left arm held up, rather than the method I used to signal my intentions (right arm pointed straight out).  Now I'm old enough to know the original traffic signals of the left arm only, but in WA state, either way is legal, and it feels more obvious that I'm going to turn right if I put out my right arm and point that way in the same way I signal a left turn intention.

I pointed out that both were legal, and thanked him for his opinion.  He sort of backtracked and apologetically said he often uses his right arm, too, but he noticed that it may be harder to see a right arm signal from behind.  Hmmm - sounds suspicious.  

This also begs the question of what side to mount a headlight and taillight on your bike, if not in the center line...

Brian

Seattle, WA

p.s.  Here's the law in WA state for the doubting:

Revised Code of Washington State 46.61.758
Hand Signals.

All hand signals required of persons operating
bicycles shall be given in the following manner:

(1) Left turn.
Left hand and arm extended horizontally beyond the side of the bicycle;

(2) Right turn.
Left hand and arm extended upward beyond the side of the bicycle, or
right hand and arm extended horizontally to the right side of the bicycle;

(3) Stop or decrease speed.
Left hand and arm extended downward beyond the side of the bicycle.
The hand signals required by this section shall be given before initiation
of a turn.

[Bertin753]

Didn't the left arm/right turn signal originate with motor cars, where you can't stick your right hand out of the right window when you are sitting in the left seat? I've not conducted a rigorous experiment, but it seems to me that any driver ought to be able to see a cyclist's right arm extended to signal a right turn. I think your busy body interlocutor is full of shit.

Patrick Moore

iPhone

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[Steve Palincsar]

On Wed, 2012-11-14 at 23:24 -0700, Bertin753 wrote:
> Didn't the left arm/right turn signal originate with motor cars, where
> you can't stick your right hand out of the right window when you are
> sitting in the left seat? I've not conducted a rigorous experiment,
> but it seems to me that any driver ought to be able to see a cyclist's
> right arm extended to signal a right turn. I think your busy body
> interlocutor is full of shit.

Right on all counts, I think.

[Steve Palincsar]

On Wed, 2012-11-14 at 21:35 -0800, Brian Hanson wrote:

>
> This also begs the question of what side to mount a headlight and
> taillight on your bike, if not in the center line...

With a headlight like the Edelux it makes absolutely no difference
whatsoever. The beam fills the entire lane no matter which side of the
bike it's mounted on. Back when the best headlights had tightly focused
beams like light sabers, you had to choose between seeing the center of
the road or the shoulder, but no more.

[Ron Mc]

at the stem, bell takes priority over the light, because you need to operate a bell with your left hand, so you can brake with your right hand.  

As far as mounting the light lower on racks or lugs, you have to make sure you can see the right-curb near your tire, but logically, on the left side traffic may see you better.  So think about which works best with your bike.  

[Steve Palincsar]

On Thu, 2012-11-15 at 05:32 -0800, Ron Mc wrote:
> at the stem, bell takes priority over the light, because you need to
> operate a bell with your left hand, so you can brake with your right
> hand.

My front brake is on the left, as is typical in the USA. Also, I have
my bell set up on the stem and operate it with my right hand.

> As far as mounting the light lower on racks or lugs, you have to make
> sure you can see the right-curb near your tire, but logically, on the
> left side traffic may see you better. So think about which works best
> with your bike.

Seriously, with a light with a beam like the Edelux it makes absolutely
no difference. The beam is as wide as a car headlight. What a contrast
to an E6, which (although beautifully bright) is about as wide as a Star
Trek light saber. I have two of them in service, one mounted on the
right, one on the left. Riding the bike you can't tell on which side
the light is mounted.

[Steve Wimberg]

I use both signals, depending on the situation.  For example, my commute home from work features a right hand turn that many cars execute from the middle lane (inappropriately), as well as the right lane in which I am happily riding along.  I signal the right turn with my left arm in this case because there are cars coming toward me that are off to my left.  Could they see my right arm if I stick it out to signal the turn?  Probably, but I think they have a better chance of seeing the signal if I use my left.

For a right turn where there is a car coming out of the street onto which I am about to turn, I use my right arm.  

Steve

[Matthew J]

I've used the same Edeluxe on three bikes now.  First two bikes had racks with mounts to the right.  The new Clockwork is set to use Tubus Duos so I mounted it at the fork crown which is the mandatory mount point in Germany:

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/57976152@N07/8176882194/

 

There may be a bit broader coverage, but to Steve's point, these new LED lights work so well it does not make all that much difference.  I like how clean the bike looks this way.

 

On topic, I use my right arm for right turns.  No one has ever complained.

[Montclair BobbyB]

Revised Code of Washington State 46.61.758

Hand Signals.

All hand signals required of persons operating
bicycles shall be given in the following manner:

(1) Left turn.
Left hand and arm extended horizontally beyond the side of the bicycle;

(2) Right turn.
Left hand and arm extended upward beyond the side of the bicycle, or
right hand and arm extended horizontally to the right side of the bicycle;

(3) Stop or decrease speed.
Left hand and arm extended downward beyond the side of the bicycle.
The hand signals required by this section shall be given before initiation
of a turn.

... I think you forgot... 

(4) Mind your own beeswax

Arm extended directly at the offending budinsky, Index finger raised (no, NOT middle finger), as if to say "HALT... SHHHH.... Do not speak"....

BB 

 

[SteveD]

I use my left arm more because I'm a traditionalist is some respects, and use my right on occasion. No big deal. I think whatever is more convenient at the time is appropriate. The important point is that the rider signals his/her intentions to everyone, no matter what arm they use.

As for light's, my Lumatec LED is mounted on the left fork, and makes sense to me because 1: I can't mount it on the centerline; 2: it's still visible to oncoming traffice; 3: the Lumatec is plenty bright.

Steve,
Seattle

[Eric Norris]

The "left-arm-pointing-up" signal seems to me to be relic of a bygone age when there were still cars that didn't have turn signals.  

Even worse, in my opinion, is the fact that the "pointing-up-to-mean-right" signal is not intuitive; to anyone who doesn't know the symbology, it means nothing. Think about it: Ask somebody to point to their left, and they'll raise their left arm and point that way. Ask them to point right (the direction you're going to turn), and they'll raise their right arm and point that way. 

If I want to make sure a car knows which direction I'm turning, I will raise that arm--left or right--and point that way. I certainly won't rely on an arcane, non-intuitive system of signaling that requires the motorist behind me to be able to decipher that my "pointing up" signal really means I'm turning right.

Just my two cents. Everyone is free to use whatever signals are legal in their state.

--Eric N

www.CampyOnly.com

CampyOnlyGuy.blogspot.com

Twitter: @CampyOnlyGuy

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[rcnute]

If people can't figure out what you're doing when extending your right arm straight out to the right (like I do) we have much bigger problems as a society.

It was nice of you to be nice to him.

Ryan

On Wednesday, November 14, 2012 9:35:47 PM UTC-8, stonehog wrote:

[Nick Worthington]

I've been reprimanded on club rides for using the "left hand up" signal - though I only use it when I think conditions might make it hard to see my right arm.

 

Also, is it just me - the first thing I always think when I see someone else use the left-hand-right signal is "Halt!".  Must have watched too many cavalry movies when I was a kid....

 

Nick W.

[Eric Norris]

"Halt!" or "High Five!"

--Eric N

www.CampyOnly.com

CampyOnlyGuy.blogspot.com

Twitter: @CampyOnlyGuy

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[Evan]

The other day I saw, from behind the wheel of my car, a rider raising her left arm to signal a right turn. It took me a moment to figure out what she was doing, so long has it been since my grammar-school bike-education class. When I ride, I signal a right turn by holding my right arm out to the right. But if said arm is in deep shade or if I'm already riding in the right lane, over near the curb, I might try the old left-handed "halt" signal to be sure drivers behind and to my left can see my intention. 

On Wednesday, November 14, 2012 9:35:47 PM UTC-8, stonehog wrote:

[Steven Frederick]

Yeah. I was surprised (sort of) and appalled (a little) when I read
fewer than 25% of drivers taking their written license exam knew that
the traditional bent left arm pointing up meant a right turn....

Steve, E.L. MI.

[Eric Norris]

My point exactly. Pointing your arm *up* to mean *right* is not intuitive. "Up-means-right" is a code that has to be learned. Per Steve's email, you have a one-in-four chance of getting your message across by pointing up.

If you want to turn *right*, tell the cars behind you by pointing *right*, not up.

--Eric N
www.CampyOnly.com
CampyOnlyGuy.blogspot.com
Twitter: @CampyOnlyGuy

>

[Jeremy Till]

I often use the left-arm-up-going-right signal because I'm a bit of a contrarian (and anglophile) and despite living in the US, setup my brake levers for right/front (Brit/Moto style) braking, and since I'm often braking just before a turn, find myself using the left arm for signaling.  And since I'm on a bike and don't have the roof of a car in the way, i make it a bit more of an acute angle so my fingers end up pointing towards the right, so hopefully it's a bit clearer than just my left hand raised towards the sky (Hallelujah!).

I definitely had to learn the hand signals in driver's ed, so I guess I just assume that most people know what it means. 

On Wednesday, November 14, 2012 9:35:47 PM UTC-8, stonehog wrote:

[Tim McNamara]

Those signals were designed for car drivers to use, since you can only effectively signal with the arm that is easy to stick out of the window.

Tim

[Brian Hanson]

"HALT... SHHHH.... Do not speak"  

HA!  ROFL!  Priceless :)

Brian

Seattle, WA

 

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[Marc Irwin]

Every thing I have heard on this thread makes perfect sense, but here in Michigan the law still requires the left hand signals exclusively.  It's not as if anybody enforces it, we use whatever will be visible (maybe flares?).  In the final analysis, the legality, visibility and usefulness are irrelevant, the only thing the the cagers remember is the middle finger.

Marc

[justin...@gmail.com]

Weird. In PA we have to do all from the left too. Did not know that.

-J in PHL

[PATRICK MOORE]

This is excessively cynical. It is not at all irrelevant for a cyclist to obey the law where appropriate and where not to do what ever keeps him safe -- which means, to ride predictably and reasonably as part of traffic where this is possible. 

I've had motorists tell me in effect to get off the road, but when I explain to them that I am under law part of traffic, and that I expect them as well as myself to use the public thoroughfares reasonably and courteously, they usually agree. And I am by no means a shrinking violet when it comes to taking my rights on the road, or to letting motorists know when they are wrong.

What does make me angry (and I am not accusing Marc of doing this) is stupid cyclists, whether clueless or arrogant urban hipsters or clueless or arrogant roadies, needlessly inconveniencing motorists -- I've spoken up to such cyclists just as I have done to motorists. 

OK. Now let's talk about helmets.

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[jimD]

Golly, I drive a car, does this make me a 'cager'?

I suspect most of us are guilty of this car thing.

Us vs them doesn't work so well when many of us are both us and them.

-JimD

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[justin...@gmail.com]

I drive and bike equally. I also bus and train a bit. The worst specimens of all those who take a form of transit are those who set no a dichotomy (or quadchotomy?) of exclusivity. I loathe terrible drivers and cyclists equally. Buses terrify me with their blatant disregard for the law here in Philly. Don't get me started on those arrogant train engineers. Name calling and blanket accusations aren't helpful in dialogue and put you into a fundamentalist position, something I doubt many folks think is useful in discussion.

-J

[Matthew J]

Having difficulty conceptually with all forms of rude driving behavior being equal.

Cyclists can and do often annoy. They rarely kill or maim.

Bus drivers may be reported and in Chicago at least fired for reckless behavior.

While auto casualties overall have declined, this is mainly because autos are safer and their occupants less likely to be hurt. Pedestrian, cyclist and property encounters are increasing. Except for the most egregious behavior, reporting does little good. With cash strapped governments putting fewer cops on the road, I expect the problems with autos will only increase.

[PATRICK MOORE]

No one said that their sins are equal; I agree that motorists take their responsibilities far, far too lightly, They just said that even motorists have rights and that even cyclists have responsibilities.

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[jimD]

I've been commuting by my bike to my work with varying frequency over the past 30 years.

For myself, and as a driver, I go by the philosophy that cars are not my friends when I'm bicycling.
I choose routes that expose me to the least amount of traffic.

When I commute by car I realize how other traffic, my sense of mission (must get to work, must get home, must get to store),
and all the other distractions, narrow my focus. I prefer to avoid this if possible. Add in the small percentage of my fellow
drivers who believe that bicycles have no place on the roads and things get sketchy.

By and large I've found the greatest percentage of folks driving are considerate. What might be a 'fender bender' in my car is
likely to be much worse for me on my bicycle..

-JImD

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