26 vs 29...thought I knew which side I was on.

[jinxed]

Just some curious observation on wheel size.

I spent the years from @ 1989-2004 almost exclusively on 26" wheeled mountain bikes in the dirt. I dabbled a bit with road bikes, cruisers, folders, bmx bikes in there too, but for all intent I was a mountain biker.

Then I picked up a 700c cross bike that I would use for...well, cyclocross, but never much gave thought to doing "mountain biking" on mainly because I had a mountain bike to do that with.

Then my daughter was born and my cycling changed drastically. Not only was I riding mainly in town, but I had picked up my first Rivendell as well. My MTB collected dust, while I kept buying fatter and fatter tires and taking the Rivendell on more varied terrain. After riding the Hilsen shod with 45mm IRC knobbies on singletrack I sold the MTB.

That led me to thinking, or more to the point, eased my disdain for the 29er mountain bike craze, and I got another mountain specific cannondale 29er. Which I was honestly very surprised with, and enjoyed riding when I was able to make time for the trails. It really did feel smoother to me than the 26"ers I had previously, but still mentally considered 26 as my first choice. Anyway, long story short, we were hurting for space and I acquired the nice mint condition 84 Rock Hopper that I slotted into the MTB spot in my mind and sold the Cannondale. How could I go wrong...26" wheels should feel like an old pair of jeans right?

Now we get to the point. Recently I have been riding off road more, and I came to a personal realization. After riding the fatty tired Hilsen back to back with the fatty tired Rock Hopper, I am solidly in the camp of enjoying the larger diameter wheels off road.

I think the Rock hopper may be leaving the nest, and re-replaced with a rigid 29'er. Time to start looking for a Karate Monkey!!

[cyclot...@gmail.com]

I had a similar experience coming form 26" MTBs... had a B'stone MB2
for the 90's, then sold it when I ended up riding my then RB-T and
then my All-Rounder exclusively on the trails. Decided I wanted to
get back into actual mountain biking and ended up with a Karate
Monkey. What, a great bike! Not a fan of the rear fork end/sliders
on it though... sucks hugely for field repair of a flat. I might have
to trade it in for a Hunqapillar if a used one ever comes up on the
market.

[Leslie]

650B!

[cyclotourist]

If I were starting over in the bike thing, I would have all 650b.  As it is, I'm pretty financially committed to 700C...

On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 4:34 PM, Leslie <leslie...@gmail.com> wrote:

650B!

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...in terms of recreational cycling there are many riders who would probably benefit more from
improving their taste than from improving their performance. - RTMS

[Steve Palincsar]

On Wed, 2011-08-03 at 17:55 -0700, cyclotourist wrote:
> If I were starting over in the bike thing, I would have all 650b. As
> it is, I'm pretty financially committed to 700C...

Maybe so now, but most ardent 650B fans were equally committed to 700C
at one time.

[cyclotourist]

Hmmm, must ponder the implications of that...

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[brian tester]

The Hunqapillar definitely turned me on to the bigger wheels concept
for mtb-ing. I wasn't expecting to like it as much, but the big wheels
do roll nicely over rough ground. You get a pretty large contact patch
to stick to things with.

-Brian

On Aug 3, 5:55 pm, cyclotourist <cyclotour...@gmail.com> wrote:
> If I were starting over in the bike thing, I would have all 650b.  As it is,
> I'm pretty financially committed to 700C...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 4:34 PM, Leslie <leslie.bri...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > 650B!
>
> >  --
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> > To view this discussion on the web visit
> >https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/T9aQHFe2VasJ.
>
> > To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
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>
> --
> Cheers,
> David
> Redlands, CA
>

> *...in terms of recreational cycling there are many riders who would
> probably benefit more from
> improving their taste than from improving their performance.* - RTMS

[EricP]

When I had a larger wheel mountain bike, I liked the feeling.
However, hand issues are going to prevent me from ever being a
mountain biker again. Unless I go to suspension. Although maybe a fat
bike of some sort would work. 3.7 or 4.5 inch wide tires might give
enough cushion. 650B did not work for me in the least although I
wanted it to. Am now having to survive on riding bikes with merely
40s on my 700C bikes and 50s on my 26 inch wheel touring bike.

As an aside - the riders this past weekend included a gent on a Salsa
Mukluk. He was able to easily keep pace with the fastest riders.
Last I saw of him he was following a tandem doing over 20 mph.

Eric Platt
(who is realizing it's not wheel size but the motor that's the issue.)

[Michael_S]

I  have ridden mountain bikes from inception, circa 1983. I rode my road bike off road in the late '70's before the MTB came to be on the national level but there just weren't the 700c tires available to do more technical terrain. So I switched and rode MTB's almost exclusively.

Rigid bikes with 26"  1.8" knobbies (45mm) were great for all terrain. I raced off and on for 10 years. Hard tails, full suspension, I rode at least 10 different 26" mountain bikes.

 So when 29er's came on the scene, I tried a Haro Mary hardtail and I was quickly converted, The speed you can carry on the downhills, the increased security in the corners. In fact I no longer wanted or needed rear suspension.

Now I'm back to those fab "80's with 45mm knobbies except now I'm on 700c tires and having a blast.

 

~mike

[Anne Paulson]

On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 9:43 PM, Michael_S <mikey...@rocketmail.com> wrote:

>  So when 29er's came on the scene, I tried a Haro Mary hardtail and I was
> quickly converted, The speed you can carry on the downhills, the increased
> security in the corners. In fact I no longer wanted or needed rear
> suspension.

Are you 29er fans tall? I ask because I'm perfectly willing to believe
a 29 inch wheel has all the characteristics Michael says it does, but
doesn't it also have terrible toe clip overlap in smaller sizes?

--
-- Anne Paulson

My hovercraft is full of eels

[cyclotourist]

Yes, and/or real steep HT/ST angles to get the tires to fit.  Same as any 700C bike in small sizes, but then exaggerated with the larger tires. 

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Redlands, CA

...in terms of recreational cycling there are many riders who would probably benefit more from

improving their taste than from improving their performance. - RTMS

[Eric Daume]

Gary Fisher and some other makers use a slacker head angle and a fork with more offset to reduce toe overlap.

Eric

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[EricP]

Yup. A co-worker who owns a Bleriot used to have a Surly Karate
Monkey 29er. Had toe overlap. She now has a Surly Troll. 26 inch
wheels. For reference, her Bleriot is about a 51cm frame.

Eric Platt
St. Paul, MN

On Aug 5, 12:56 am, cyclotourist <cyclotour...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Yes, and/or real steep HT/ST angles to get the tires to fit.  Same as any
> 700C bike in small sizes, but then exaggerated with the larger tires.
>

> On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 10:45 PM, Anne Paulson <anne.paul...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 9:43 PM, Michael_S <mikeybi...@rocketmail.com>

> > wrote:
>
> > >  So when 29er's came on the scene, I tried a Haro Mary hardtail and I was
> > > quickly converted, The speed you can carry on the downhills, the
> > increased
> > > security in the corners. In fact I no longer wanted or needed rear
> > > suspension.
>
> > Are you 29er fans tall? I ask because I'm perfectly willing to believe
> > a 29 inch wheel has all the characteristics Michael says it does, but
> > doesn't it also have terrible toe clip overlap in smaller sizes?
>
> > --
> > -- Anne Paulson
>
> > My hovercraft is full of eels
>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
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> > For more options, visit this group at
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>
> --
> Cheers,
> David
> Redlands, CA
>

> *...in terms of recreational cycling there are many riders who would
> probably benefit more from
> improving their taste than from improving their performance.* - RTMS

[Montclair BobbyB]

For offroad (especially technical riding), I am sold on my 29er... It
just WORKS
http://tinyurl.com/3r2nwyt
http://tinyurl.com/3gfx8qh

On my StumpJumper all-arounder 26 just feels perfect...
On my Bombadil, 29 feels about as good as it could possibly get
In short I love the way they both roll...

BB

[Jim Mather]

Several successful women racers are on 29ers, including Willow
Koerber, Katie Compton, and Georgia Gould. Gould is 5'9" and the
others are shorter. If you're interested, find a well designed 29er
(Niner, Fisher, Orbea, Giant, to name a few) and try it. Don't assume
they're only for tall riders.

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[Michael_S]

I used one of the Fisher designed Fox front shocks with a 51mm offset. In combination with a 72d head angle on the Mary it steered very crisply in singletrack. It helps toe overlap too but as mine was an large frame it wouldn't have been a problem. The lower trail works amazingly well off road. The person I sold it too sold his Moots as he thought the Haro rode nicer. 

 

I think for those under 5" 3" or so the 650B mountain bikes are a better fit. As David mentioned the smaller bikes have steep seat angles which can cause issues for those needing setback.

 

I'm having a custom steel 29er built right now that replicates the steeper HA of the Haro for the really technical terrain that I can't ride my Ram on.

In Riv tradition it will have some lugs, silver components and a Brooks saddle.

 

~mike

 

[cyclotourist]

Tease... who is the builder????

FWIW, the Brooks Swift makes a pretty good off-road saddle.  But I like my WTB Devo/Diva more.

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Redlands, CA

...in terms of recreational cycling there are many riders who would probably benefit more from

improving their taste than from improving their performance. - RTMS

[Michael_S]

I t will be a surprise. Hint, I met him at SD bike show.

It also has a curved top tube.  and just one bi-lam lug at seat tube/ top tube. The rest is fillet brazed.

 

~mike

[Jim Mather]

Hunter? Black Cat?

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[cyclotourist]

Victoria?

[Anne]

Coconino????

[Michael_S]

Chauncey Matthews from Belen NM. Small builder but seems to have the right craftsman skills.

 

~mike

[stevef]

I had a thunk when I was bashing around at Fort Custer Recreation Area on my 650b-wheeled, custom Curtlo Softail yesterday.  I don't doubt that larger wheels bridge closely spaced bumps and help smooth the ride over washboards and root beds, and add a bit of stability.  But I wonder how much of the cush they are supposed to offer is due to the longer wheelbase/chainstays?  Remember the trend in 26" mtb's where the chainstays kept getting shorter and shorter, so they'd "climb better?"  Getting the wheel right up under the saddle like that does tend to give them a bit of a jackhammer ride...

Steve

[Patrick in VT]

On Aug 5, 6:51 pm, Jim Mather <mather...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Several successful women racers are on 29ers, including Willow
> Koerber, Katie Compton, and Georgia Gould.

I get to race with Lea Davison (another World Cup level pro MTB racer
on a 29er) and some other elite/pro racers at my weekly local MTB
series. i haven't talked to Lea about it, but i know that some pros
have access to 29ers and 26ers and choose which to ride depending on
the course. Jaroslav Kulhavy won a world cup XC race on a 29er this
year - the first time that's happened. but that field of racers is
still loaded with 26ers. and WC races tend to be very technical. the
only conclusion i draw there is that it's still about the rider more
than the bike/wheel size. my own experience reinforces that - I'm
100% positive that I'm not getting dropped because of 26 inch wheels.

Personally, MTB, whether i'm racing or just enjoying some trails, is
"skills" intensive and i'm not convinced that wheel size is going to
do much in terms of how i choose my lines, tackle obstacles and
enhance my skill set in general. but the fact that so many super
skilled mountain bikers have adopted 29ers is certainly persuasive.

[Jim Mather]

On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 7:56 AM, Patrick in VT <swin...@gmail.com> wrote:
> the only conclusion i draw there is that it's still about the rider more
> than the bike/wheel size.

Of course that's the case. I responded to a query about whether 29ers
were only for tall riders.

[René Sterental]

I'm sure that is correct for experienced riders regardless of their
fitness. However, I can vouch that for beginner riders such as my 12
year old son, riding a 29er will be very confidence inspiring as
compared to a 26er when you're talking hardtails. He used to be very
skittish and scared of mountain biking with me so when he outgrew his
24" bike, I went straight to a 29er hardtail for him. The big wheels
have given him a sense of stability, the confidence to know that he
can roll over pretty much anything that is still cross-country and has
enabled him to acquire much better riding skills.

Maybe on a dual suspension 26er the experience would have been
similar, but I wasn't going to purchase an expensive DS for a growing
boy I wasn't sure would love it.

I've been mountain biking since 1999, first with hardtails, then with
DS bikes with progressively more travel, but my eyes were opened to
the wonders of the larger wheels when I first mountain biked with my
Bombadil.

With the 29er wheels and fat tires, you really can do away without
suspension and recover a lot of the pure fun that seems to have gotten
lost with the super technical dual suspension bikes that call for
higher speeds and/or gnarlier groomed trails to "have fun".

Many of the trails where it's legal to mountain bike in the SF Bay
Area are groomed and keep getting "sanitized" to make them easier and
safer (and reduce liability) so they become boring to ride for expert
riders. Riding them on the Hunqapillar or any other unsuspended 29er
makes them a lot if fun to ride again.

Rene

Sent from my iPhone 4

[Anne Paulson]

On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 3:51 PM, Jim Mather <math...@gmail.com> wrote:

Several successful women racers are on 29ers, including Willow
Koerber, Katie Compton, and Georgia Gould.

Toe clip overlap is an issue at very low speeds. Women racers, I imagine, don't spend a lot of time at very low speeds. But I do. As ever, what works for racers is not necessarily the best choice for non-racers.

[Patrick in VT]

On Aug 9, 12:11 pm, René Sterental <orthie...@gmail.com> wrote:
>The big wheels have given him a sense of stability, the confidence to know that he
> can roll over pretty much anything that is still cross-country and has
> enabled him to acquire much better riding skills.

so he didn't try a 26er? afterall, 26inch is bigger than 24inch. i
still don't understand what wheelsize has to do with riding skills or
stability. lots of touring bikes use 26 inch wheels. are they
unstable?

> Maybe on a dual suspension 26er the experience would have been

> similar.

if wheels size is the issue, why would 26er, regardless of suspension,
be similar? you say big wheels lead to a "sense" of stability, not
suspension.

> I've been mountain biking since 1999, first with hardtails, then with
> DS bikes with progressively more travel, but my eyes were opened to
> the wonders of the larger wheels when I first mountain biked with my
> Bombadil.

is the geometry of the Bombadil comparable to modern MTBs?

> With the 29er wheels and fat tires, you really can do away without
> suspension and recover a lot of the pure fun that seems to have gotten
> lost with the super technical dual suspension bikes that call for
> higher speeds and/or gnarlier groomed trails to "have fun".

i'd say the same about 26ers and fat tires.

> Many of the trails where it's legal to mountain bike in the SF Bay
> Area are groomed and keep getting "sanitized" to make them easier and
> safer (and reduce liability) so they become boring to ride for expert
> riders. Riding them on the Hunqapillar or any other unsuspended 29er
> makes them a lot if fun to ride again.

again, why wouldn't an unsuspended 26er be just as much fun?

[René Sterental]

Patrick,

I didn't want to make it too complicated. IME, a 29er hardtail will
"slow down and smooth out" any given trail from a subjective
perspective compared to a 26er. This means tha for a beginner, it will
be easier and less scary to learn the appropriate skills, have fun
while doing so and get a potentially less "threatening" or "scary"
experience in the process.

The 29er wheels will also roll over obstacles more smoothly than the
26er wheels.

All these elements combined make the learning curve feel easier and
more fun, IMO.

For an experienced rider, a 26er may be more fun as it's more agile
and feels quick, although that again will be a subjective preference.
I haven't ridden any 29er hardtails to compare them to my DS 26er long
teavel trail bike, but when I rode my Bombadil the first time as a
mountain bike I had so much fun I couldn't wipe the grin off my face.
I'm pretty sure the feeling will be very similar riding any Rivendell
off road beyond flat gravel trails.

The point I was trying to make was that IMO, a 29er will be a better
choice for a beginner mountain biker and he/she will get a better
package for the same amount of money that would buy a lesser dual
suspension package.

Smaller beginner riders may have the wheel overlap issue which may
negate all these advantages for them. My son rides a 15" Specialized
Rockhopper 29er and has no issues at all with toe/wheel overlap on
that bike. He is of average height for a 12 year old.

YMMV,

Rene

Sent from my iPhone 4

[Patrick in VT]

On Aug 9, 2:42 pm, René Sterental <orthie...@gmail.com> wrote:

> , , , All these elements combined make the learning curve feel easier and
> more fun, IMO.

okay, I can see that. not sure I agree, but I can see it.

FWIW, I plan on spending some more time on a 29er. I just haven't
been able to come to any conclusions based on a few short rides here
and there - both wheels sizes feel good to me (I was actually
surprised at how agile my buddy's Jones 29er is). and honestly, once
I settle into a rhythm, the last thing i'm thinking about is wheels
size. there are other things - like trees - that deserve my
attention!

[René Sterental]

For someone like you, I agree. You're not a beginner and 29ers have
become much more nimble and agile. It makes the purchasing decision
come down to whether you just follow the latest fads, resist them and
use what you always did, or keep adding bikes to the garage so you can
develop long term experiences with them and have the bike stable
evolve over time as the type of riding you do also evolves.

If you could only have one bike, which one would you get or keep... ;-)

I refuse to say anything my wife could potentially use against me!!!

Rene

Sent from my iPhone 4

[Michael_S]

Patrick, as in all bikes, geometry is a big factor is ride quality, manuverability, and quickness. 29ers are no exception. 

By accident I ended up with a steep head angle and long rake fork on my 1st 29er.  I felt that it handled just as quick as any of the 10+ 26ers I've rode since the early '80's and the rolling and downhill terrain gains I experienced made it any easy switch.  Other 29ers I've ridden with slightly slacker HA's and shorter rake forks feel slow and too long.

Of course terrain is a big driver. Here in California we have more open riding terain so a 29er seems more suitable.

 

~mike

 

[Patrick in VT]

On Aug 9, 5:54 pm, Michael_S <mikeybi...@rocketmail.com> wrote:

> By accident I ended up with a steep head angle and long rake fork on my 1st

> 29er.  I felt that it handled just as quick . .

good to know.

> Of course terrain is a big driver. Here in California we have more open
> riding terain so a 29er seems more suitable.

absolutely. the majority of my MTBing is on tight, twisty trails and
I love throwing my 26er around that stuff. after riding my friend's
Jones though, I have no doubts that a 29er can handle such terrain
with aplomb too. i'm afraid to indulge my curiosity too much because
we all know where that leads ... and this dude can not abide another
bike!

[EricP]

It does still seem there are big differences in "east coast" versus
"west coast" riding style. (Thinking back to the 1980's when Fat City
went with short stays and steep angles for tight trails.)

I liked the 29er I had. Although if I get another mountain bike in
the future, it will be a shocked design. Unless I turn left and get a
fat bike of some sort. Maybe, just maybe 4" wide tires would have
enough cushion for me on trails.

Eric Platt
St. Paul, MN