DT shifter issues

[Mike]

So I've been using Silver shifters for a few years now and overall like them a lot with one exception. When I mount them on the DT on my 63cm Hilsen or 63cm randonneuring bike, the front shifter slips when standing on the pedals during a hard effort such as going over rollers causing the FD cage to rub on the chain. This was exceptionally annoying last week during the Cascade 1200k. 

I've had the problem to a lesser degree when the shifters are mounted on the BE.

The shifter and cable are mounted correctly. This is an issue that has persisted even when the shifters were installed by a knowledgeable mechanic. And yes, the shifter is tightened down on the braze-on.

I'm considering giving Shimano Dura Ace 9spd DT shifters a try. For folks using them, any issues? I've looked for 8spd Dura Ace shifters, which I'd prefer, but Shimano does not seem to be making them anymore. I may just go with 9spd and run the rear shifter in friction mode as my current drivetrain is 8spd.

I'm thinking that this might just be an issue due to the size of my frame and my weight--185lb. I'd be curious what others' experiences have been with the Shimano shifters. 

Oh, and if anyone has a pair of Dura Ace 8spd shifters for sale, let me know.

Thanks,

mike

[Scott Henry]

Just curious, is the front shifter slipping or is the front derailuer just rubbing?  

If it only happens during hard efforts, it may be due to frame flex rather than shifter slip.  I'm assuming you are in the big ring and try to hammer when the frame flexes away and effectively tries to stretch the length of the cable, due to the FD outer limit screw the FD can't move and thus pulls the cable with moves the lever...

 

Just a thought as I hate when people blame their weight and then offer up something like 185lbs.

Cheers,

Scott (now I feel horrible at my 225lbs) Henry

Dayton, OH

 

 

 

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/CyyGmvS8Hu8J.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.

[Michael Hechmer]

I'm  6' 1" & 200 lbs, but I usually only stand up to crest short rollers w/out downshifting.  I sit on longer climbs.  I have silver DT and BE with 9 speed cassettes.  I don't get any slipping in the front, except every once in a great, great while, when the D ring has worked loose.  I do get some slipping in the rear because I have never been able to keep the BE tightened down enough,  We have DA on the tandem and they also work very well.  I would call Riv and chat with them.  They are usually pretty helpful.

I just want to add that my Ram now has Silver DT shifter with the White Ind VBC Crank 44/30 with a 9 spd 11/28 Ultegra Cassette.  Campy triple FD and the new Shimano RD  6700 in the rear and this has to be the best shifting & gearing combo I have ever had in 35 years of pedal pounding.

Michael

[Lyle Bogart]

For what it's worth, I use bar-end Silver Shifters and get the front-derailleur-rubbing-issue when out of the saddle climbing on my Atlantis. I can look down and watch the frame flex as I do this if it's a very steep hill. Sometimes I'll remember to pre-adjust the shifter lever before I begin a climb to keep things quieter on ascent. I'm 6'1" and weigh 185. 

 

Cheers!

 

lyle

 

On Monday, July 2, 2012 11:24:10 AM UTC-4, Mike wrote:

So I've been using Silver shifters for a few years now and overall like them a lot with one exception. When I mount them on the DT on my 63cm Hilsen or 63cm randonneuring bike, the front shifter slips when standing on the pedals during a hard effort such as going over rollers causing the FD cage to rub on the chain. This was exceptionally annoying last week during the Cascade 1200k. 

I've had the problem to a lesser degree when the shifters are mounted on the BE.

The shifter and cable are mounted correctly. This is an issue that has persisted even when the shifters were installed by a knowledgeable mechanic. And yes, the shifter is tightened down on the braze-on.

I'm considering giving Shimano Dura Ace 9spd DT shifters a try. For folks using them, any issues? I've looked for 8spd Dura Ace shifters, which I'd prefer, but Shimano does not seem to be making them anymore. I may just go with 9spd and run the rear shifter in friction mode as my current drivetrain is 8spd.

I'm thinking that this might just be an issue due to the size of my frame and my weight--185lb. I'd be curious what others' experiences have been with the Shimano shifters. 

Oh, and if anyone has a pair of Dura Ace 8spd shifters for sale, let me know.

Thanks,

mike

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/NLwDIGrqox0J.

To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.

--
lyle f bogart dpt

156 bradford rd

wiscasset, me 04578

207.882.6494

206.794.6937

[Andy Smitty Schmidt]

I have the same issue... Silver DT shifters that slip the FD when I power up. My M.O. has been to adjust it when it slips/rubs. Most of my riding is relatively short distance/time around town so it's rarely an issue. I can imagine how it could become a nuisance on a longer ride. I've tried a variety of solutions involving de-greasing and tightening the shift lever but no change. I sort of chalked it up to an incompatibility between my Microshift FD and the Silver Shifter... like perhaps the spring in the derailer is too strong for the shifter. It hasn't been enough of an issue for me to start replacing parts. 

--Andy

[Mike]

On Jul 2, 9:08 am, Scott Henry <ske...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Just curious, is the front shifter slipping or is the front derailuer just
> rubbing?
> If it only happens during hard efforts, it may be due to frame flex rather
> than shifter slip.  I'm assuming you are in the big ring and try to hammer
> when the frame flexes away and effectively tries to stretch the length of
> the cable, due to the FD outer limit screw the FD can't move and thus pulls
> the cable with moves the lever...

I haven't ruled out frame flex being the culprit. I feel like I've
talked with a number of people of varying sizes who have had this
issue on various bikes. I've had it a bit with my LHT on sustained
stand-up efforts. I may try adjusting the limit screw and see if that
helps.

I've thought about emailing Mark at RBW to see what he thinks. Also,
I've thought about emailing Jan Heine, as I'm sure he has some
insights.

>
> Just a thought as I hate when people blame their weight and then offer up
> something like 185lbs.

While 185 isn't necessarily clydesdale for my height (5'11.5"), it's
still heavy enough to flex the frame I think and possibly be a
contributing factor.

[William]

Mike

This is a very common issue with several very simple fixes.  I apologize in advance for a long post

As you know, there's a spring in the front derailer that wants to pull the chain down to the small ring.  The only thing stopping that from happening is the friction in the shiftlever.  If there's more static friction in the shiftlever, it'll keep the front derailer in place.  If the force in the derailer spring is stronger, it'll win and pull the chain over.   When you pedal out of the saddle, the frame flexes some and makes the cable a little tighter a little looser in phase with your pedalling. If the friction in the lever is just barely strong enough to hold the derailer in place, this part can make the derailer walk down to where it's constantly rubbing and requires you to pull the shifter again to take up the slack.  

This problem is more common these days because modern front derailers have ridiculously strong return springs because of all the mashers who insist on being able to downshift to a smaller chainring while hammering out of the saddle.  Furthermore, the lever arm on the ft derailer linkage is much shorter today than in older derailers, making the front derailer 'stronger' because of an increased mechanical advantage.  This 'enhancement' developed to get brifters to work.  So the fixes can include:

1.  If you have a 'modern' front derailer, consider swapping it with an older design.  One with a lighter spring and/or longer lever arm

2.  Get more friction out of your friction shifter.  If you tighten up the d-ring all the way, you should no longer even be able to move your shifter in the downshift direction.  If you can't do that, then you aren't really tightening the friction part of your shifter.  You've merely bottomed out on the bolt and you are tightening against that.  You need a shorter bolt, or a slightly thicker friction washer inside.  

3.  Another modern front derailer 'enhancement' is a SUPER narrow cage.  One of the consequences of that is you have to have your limit screws set really precisely, and you have to slam the derailer against the limit screw when you are in the big ring and a smallish cog.  In this situation, the tug-of-war is no longer the front derailer spring against the shifter friction.  It's an immovable object (the limit screw) against the friction in your shifter.  The limit screw always wins, and you'll always be able to get a tiny bit of slack in the cable.  To check if this is what you are experiencing, deliberately back off the upper limit screw a lot.  Like a full 360 degree rotation.  You'll have to be careful not to overshift when you go into the big ring.  When in the big ring, see if you can make the rubbing happen.  You might not be able to.  If you find that backing off the limit screw 'solves' the problem, then you'll be left trying to find a balance where there's a combination of limit screw setting + technique that keeps you from overshifting and avoids this phenomenon.  Another surprising fix for this particular corner case is flexier shift cables.  People forget how springy shift cables used to be.  These days, they are super stiff in tension to make indexing work.  A springier cable can take the stress cycles associated with pedaling without moving the shifter.  It's hard to find springy shift cables, these days, though.  

[Mike]

Hey William, I appreciate the response. There's clearly good
information here. The one thing is, this isn't generally an issue when
using BE shifters and has never been a problem with Shimano BE
shifters. Later this week I'll have my Surly CC back on the road and
that has Shimano BE shifters on it. I'm gonna try and see if I can
replicate the problem with them.

I will try backing out the limit screw a bit and see if that helps.

I definitely want to resolve the issue on my randonneuring bike. I'll
be doing a swap this week of the double crankset on my Hilsen to the
randonneur and the triple on the randonneur back to the Hilsen.
Although it's been years now since I rode a bike with STI, I don't
recall having this problem on my Lemond's Ultegra STI shifters.

--mike

[Andy Smitty Schmidt]

Thanks for the suggestions William. Just for fun I ran down to the garage and filed a "smidge" off the bolt that holds the shift lever to the DT boss and was able to get the lever significantly tighter. I did a few laps up and down the hill in front of my house and no FD slippage. 

Funny coincidence is that I shortened 3 other bolts on my AHH over the weekend and the file was still sitting on the work bench. 

--Andy

[rcnute]

I've been much happier with DA downtube shifters than Silvers. But
with barcons the Silvers are great.

Ryan

[William]

You guys are all correct with your observations

1.  Silvers don't slip in Barend configuration.  Correct.  This has two reasons.  A.  The receptacle (boss) into which the D-ring threads is way deeper, so it's impossible to bottom out.  B.  More cable and housing means more flex (stretch) can soak up the stresses without slipping.  It's mostly A.  
2.  Dura Ace downtubes don't slip.  Correct.  They have the right length bolt.  

3.  Shimano barends don't slip.  Also correct.

4.  STIs don't slip.  Correct.  They can't slip.  

[rob markwardt]

I've got a new to me bike coming out of the shop this week with
new...yes you guessed it...down tube silvers. I had some Silver bar-
enders ready to go but changed my mind at the last minute. The bar-
end shifters on my Bleriot have been flawless for 5 years. Hopefully
the down-tubers do the trick...will let you know. Now if you guys
would have just had this conversation 2 days ago!

[Bertin753]

I can't advise about the slipping FD except to conjecture that something is keeping the bolt from tightening as it should. But as to the rear, I expect that it is a matter of learning shifting finesse. I have only 7 on the rear, but they are separated by 9 sp spacers (because that is what I had) and the silver bes shifts them fine. The trick is not anticipate the Hyperglide feature: move the lever just that tiny bit that experience teaches you is required by the gap, and let the ramps, etc., do their work. That took me a while to learn. 

Patrick Moore

iPhone

On Jul 2, 2012, at 5:46 PM, Eric Peterson <peterso...@gmail.com> wrote:

I installed the Silvers on my Velo Orange rando bike and have been very unhappy with their performance. There are two basic problems.

First, I experienced phantom shifting of the FD. The shifter cannot hold the FD in place in the middle ring (on a Sugino triple). Instead, after a short time, it will drop to the inner ring. This occurred over and over on my recent 400K brevet and I was NOT happy, as I was always going up a hill at the time. I am using a modern DA FD, so perhaps the spring tension is too high for the shifter. But it is the FD that I have available. If there are any specific models of older FDs that would alleviate this condition, please send along this information, along with any suggestions for sources.

The other problem is just as bad. The shifter will not shift a 9-speed Shimano cassette very effectively. You think you have nailed it, then the chain jumps one way or the other. It's like the micro-clicks simply cannot position the chain close enough to the center of the cassette for some gears. So there was a lot of chain hopping going on back there. After a while I just stopped shifting sometimes and just stood on the pedals.

Bottom line, I will remove these and go back to Shimano. 9-speed BES have worked well for me in the past, but I did not want to route the cables along the handlebar in order to avoid the front bag I am using, so I initially tried DA 9-speed DT shifters, but the rear one felt a little loose, and lined up funny with the left one (so I thought), but now I have little choice but to go with one of these or the other.

Another option would be to go back to a 7/8 speed cassette, perhaps the Silvers work well with those. But there is still the FD problem....

Eric Peterson
Naperville, IL

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/IWSBORBOiJwJ.

[Mike]

Hey William, thanks so much for pointing out that a shorter bolt holding the shifter to the braze-on might take care of the slippage. I hadn't ridden my randonneuring bike since finishing the Cascade back in June. Yesterday before heading out to Larch Mtn I filed the bolt down put it back on my bike and headed out for a ride where I was able to enjoy standing up and riding in the big ring with the shifter slipping. 

--mike--who is looking forward to going back to DT shifters on his Hilsen.

On Monday, July 2, 2012 11:22:42 AM UTC-7, William wrote:

[William]

Great news Mike.  I'm about to take the file to the end of one of mine, too.  I've been queuing up several small tasks in the workshop on multiple bikes.  I'm thinking I'll pull out the portable record player, a bottle of vino, and spend a few hours of meditation time working on the stable tonight.  

[Andy Smitty Schmidt]

Glad to hear you got rid of the slippage, Mike. 

On Monday, August 27, 2012 7:21:35 AM UTC-7, Mike wrote: