The New Riv

[Zack]

Just got an email from Riv HQ, there is a new bike in the works - a truly affordable ($1400) complete bike.

Cool stuff.  

Shipping is going up $1 too.  I think i'll live.

[Peter Morgano]

Intriguing, a build kit for a Riv is $1,200 so not sure how it would be possible to do a whole bike for $1,400 made out of lugged steel unless the are having 1k frames made in China or something like that.

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[Joe Bernard]

http://us1.campaign-archive1.com/?u=2090e897f8c7f8d7170a52bbd&id=0f9ee90009

 

The email as linked from Rivendell's Twitter. The frame will be made in Taiwan, "minimalist paint", no headbadge, and I guess the downtube/seattube decals will be minimalist as well. I like the idea of a "beater Rivendell" a lot..something simple and understated from the company of fancy paint-and-lugs is a neat idea. I say paint it Mark's Grey - like the Hunqapillar but without the red/white - and put a creme RBW triangle on the seattube, the name of the bike on the headtube, and leave the downtube bare. Urban Commuter Stealth Rivendell.

 

Joe Bernard

Vallejo, CA.

On Tuesday, July 3, 2012 3:35:04 PM UTC-7, Peter M wrote:

Intriguing, a build kit for a Riv is $1,200 so not sure how it would be possible to do a whole bike for $1,400 made out of lugged steel unless the are having 1k frames made in China or something like that.

On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 6:24 PM, Zack <zac...@gmail.com> wrote:

Just got an email from Riv HQ, there is a new bike in the works - a truly affordable ($1400) complete bike.

Cool stuff.  

Shipping is going up $1 too.  I think i'll live.

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[pb]

Maybe the value positioning will make double top tubes impossible,
which development I would welcome.

:-)

pb

[Peter Pesce]

Interesting. A Simple One with a derailer?
I too am curious how you get the price down. It certainly wouldn't save anything to cast new, plain lugs just for one bike. Does the head tube badge really add that must cost?
If its to be a true beater, the down tube decal should be "Mongoose."

[Seth Vidal]

On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 7:06 PM, Peter Pesce <pete...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Interesting. A Simple One with a derailer?
> I too am curious how you get the price down. It certainly wouldn't save anything to cast new, plain lugs just for one bike. Does the head tube badge really add that must cost?
>

A simple one with a rear derailler? - see - that I would have no
trouble endorsing. :)

-sv

[Joe Bernard]

I probably shouldn't get too revved up about this model..the Simple One didn't come in a size small enough for me.

[Eric Platt]

I can see it being done. Especially with low-tier Shimano components. (Think Tiagra or no-name).  Most of which appear to work just fine. And there is probably a modern equivalent of old seamed, straight gauge tubing. The wheels might be the toughest part.

It's something I'll keep an eye on, although I do have two Surly bikes that fulfill the role of "beater" (or better) quite well.

Eric Platt

St. Paul, MN

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[dougP]

Agree with Joe on the minimalist detail approach; keep it low
profile. Using generic, non-group parts, it could be done. You just
ride it for a while & after a year upgrade whatever is tired. Wheels
will of necessity be machine built, no label hoops. We'll probably
see very simple lugs, as on the last of the Japanese bikes. Still,
$1,400 is a helluva price point. I imagine REI, Surly, etc. place
humungous orders to keep the price down. Time will tell.

dougP

On Jul 3, 5:41 pm, Eric Platt <epericmpl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I can see it being done. Especially with low-tier Shimano components.
> (Think Tiagra or no-name).  Most of which appear to work just fine. And
> there is probably a modern equivalent of old seamed, straight gauge tubing.
> The wheels might be the toughest part.
> It's something I'll keep an eye on, although I do have two Surly bikes that
> fulfill the role of "beater" (or better) quite well.
> Eric Platt
> St. Paul, MN
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 6:46 PM, Joe Bernard <joerem...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I probably shouldn't get too revved up about this model..the Simple One
> > didn't come in a size small enough for me.
>
> > On Tuesday, July 3, 2012 4:22:29 PM UTC-7, Seth Vidal wrote:
>

> >> On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 7:06 PM, Peter Pesce <petepe...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > Interesting. A Simple One with a derailer?
> >> > I too am curious how you get the price down. It certainly wouldn't save
> >> anything to cast new, plain lugs just for one bike. Does the head tube
> >> badge really add that must cost?
>
> >> A simple one with a rear derailler? - see - that I would have no
> >> trouble endorsing. :)
>
> >> -sv
>
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[Ryan Ray]

Maybe the value positioning will make double top tubes impossible, 
which development I would welcome. 

Best comment ever.

But yes. Totally interested.

- Ryan

[Philip Williamson]

Giant +1 on Mark's Gray. His Rivendells are my ideal of clean, fast, classic looking bikes. 

 Philip

Philip Williamson

www.biketinker.com

[Peter Morgano]

You think powder coated to save cash too?  It can be done nice for alot cheaper than wet.  You do lose some definition around lugs but for a "beater"  shouldn't be an issue.

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[Manuel Acosta]

Beater Rivendell?  I thought all Rivendells are suppose to be ridden to the ground?

[pb]

On Jul 3, 3:35 pm, Peter Morgano <uscpeter11...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Intriguing, a build kit for a Riv is $1,200 so not sure how it would be
> possible to do a whole bike for $1,400 made out of lugged steel unless the
> are having 1k frames made in China or something like that.

Lessee...

Riv and Soma have a relationship. Soma makes pretty nice lugged
frames, with a retail price point of $730. The Soma frames are made
in Taiwan. The Riv frame is going to be made in Taiwan.

Hmmmnn.... a Prestige-framed Riv? And the Soma frames even require
57mm brakes.

My only question is why would it take a year to produce?

~pb

[charlie]

It probably takes a year to produce because Grant doesn't have $20,000,000 in the bank.........actually there are probably quite a few reasons why a company takes time to get something into production.....everything from financing, parts vendors, production availability, company debt (back to financing) etc. plus.... I'm sure they want to hit the mark and insure its a good seller.

[Tony Lockhart]

I think you're close Peter. Soma's Stanyan comes in around the $700 mark and they're using Tange. Velo-Orange also has a lugged frame retailing around $700, although they've been on sale forever. The recent post mentions tubing that's not as nice as other bikes so I imagine there's some wiggle room to get the price down. I'm not familiar with the intricacies of all the different types of tubing, but I imagine that they'll go for something a bit lower than the 4130 stuff.

Budget wheels cost a couple hundred; Kalloy makes economic parts; faux leather saddle; Microshift drivetrain parts; and who knows.....maybe they get some of the tires/handlebars/incidentals from Soma. I think they can definitely pull this off. The SimpleOnes didn't have any super exciting parts, however they all managed to work together in a grouppo that made the bike affordable. I really think they can do it, and I imagine it'll be much better than the racy stuff coming out of Trek, Cannondale, and Specialized.

On Tuesday, July 3, 2012 10:02:46 PM UTC-7, pb wrote:

[pb]

On Jul 3, 10:19 pm, charlie <cl_v...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> It probably takes a year to produce because Grant doesn't have $20,000,000
> in the bank.........actually there are probably quite a few reasons why a
> company takes time to get something into production.....everything from
> financing, parts vendors, production availability, company debt (back
> to financing) etc. plus.... I'm sure they want to hit the mark and insure
> its a good seller.

Ah, I don't think it would take $20,000,000 to bring a bike to
market. I suspect that manufacturers in Taiwan are much more nimble
than that, and I suspect that parts manufacturers will be happy to
make sales.

Let's say Riv is shooting for a 35% margin, which would be very solid
in the bike world. That's a cost of $910 each. How many would they
do in a first run? A hundred? Two hundred? I have no idea how many
units Rivendell can sell of a new, entry-level model, but let's say
two hundred, which might be enough to realize some production
efficiencies. That represents a cost of $182,000. Not an
insignificant amount of money, but not anywhere near $20,000,000. As
far as ensuring that it's a "good seller" -- that might mean appealing
to a somewhat mainstream audience, which would be a bit of a switch in
posture and in marketing strategy.

Riv has had historic alliances with Merry Sales (if I recall correctly
-- weren't they the folks who distributed the Bleriot? Or was it
QBP?), as well as with Soma. Any of those could be very helpful in
lining up suppliers and supplies.

[Cyclofiend]

On Jul 3, 2012, at 11:51 PM, pb wrote:

Riv has had historic alliances with Merry Sales (if I recall correctly
-- weren't they the folks who distributed the Bleriot?  Or was it
QBP?), as well as with Soma.  Any of those could be very helpful in
lining up suppliers and supplies.

QBP handled the Bleriot project. 

Merry is the import/wholesale company behind SOMA.  

I expect also that the Hillborne, Foy/Gomez, SimpLeone projects all developed relationships in Taiwan. 

All of which combines to help them work this.  You have to find someone who will deliver what you spec, work with you to get it where it has to be on time, etc.  These are never trivial negotiations.  

Plus I would expect a few prototype sample bikes would be delivered, tested and refined. Grant and company won't let a bike show up that doesn't ride like a Rivendell.   It certainly isn't just about making a bicycle frame with lugs. 

I just think it's cool that they've shared that info with us. 

- Jim / cyclofiend.com

[Steve Palincsar]

On Tue, 2012-07-03 at 23:51 -0700, pb wrote:
>
> Ah, I don't think it would take $20,000,000 to bring a bike to
> market. I suspect that manufacturers in Taiwan are much more nimble
> than that, and I suspect that parts manufacturers will be happy to
> make sales.

The Kogswell P/R came to market, and that was one guy working out of his
home. I can't imagine he had somehow managed to accumulate twenty
million dollars (even if he'd spent his time sticking up banks or
selling crack!) before he got that project off the ground.

[Peter Pesce]

I agree with Jim that a lot of the year is in prototyping. Especially if Grant is working with tubes and/or lugs he's not so accustomed to, he'll want to build up a couple and make sure they are still Rivs. The last thing he needs is to have a bike out there that doesn't live up to the name, no matter what price.

There may certainly be a trip or two to Taiwan in there. And I recall a couple of stories where even after all the drawings and meetings and whatnot a prototype shows up that's still not right. Best to manage our expectations and say a year.

- Pete in CT

[PATRICK MOORE]

I had my erstwhile Herse powdercoated by someone accustomed to doing
bikes and it was beautiful. Yes, thicker around the lugs than paint if
you looked closely, but really not noticeable unless you expected to
find it. Heck, it may well have been nicer than the original paint,
which was pretty intact before the job -- tho' this paint may itself
not have been original, of course.

I'd not hesitate to have this man do my commuter Riv -- and just might
do that, curly lugs and all, one day.

On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 10:40 PM, Peter Morgano <uscpet...@gmail.com> wrote:
> You think powder coated to save cash too? It can be done nice for alot
> cheaper than wet. You do lose some definition around lugs but for a
> "beater" shouldn't be an issue.
>

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"Push back against the age as hard as it pushes against you."

Flannery O'Connor

-------------------------
Patrick Moore, Albuquerque, NM, USA
For professional resumes, contact Patrick Moore, ACRW
http://resumespecialties.com/index.html
-------------------------

[Beth H]

On Tuesday, July 3, 2012 10:00:45 PM UTC-7, Manuel Acosta wrote:

Beater Rivendell?  I thought all Rivendells are suppose to be ridden to the ground?

Well, yeah. Which is why some aspects of this development make me scratch my head.

"Cheap"? $1,400 ain't cheap if you're an hourly-wage worker. It isn't even "affordable". Perhaps find a different word. 

"Value-packed", maybe.

My shop does this with Surly Big Dummy frames. We build them up with a smart combination of new and used parts to keep the total price under $2,000. This is how you make bicycle transportation more affordable and more accessible. 

While I applaud RBW's stance on avoiding stuff made in China, I predict that this will become harder and harder to do -- and in a relatively short time. And when that happens, further developments at RBW will be interesting to watch.

Off to ride my BGR (Beautiful Green Riv) -- further into the ground.

Cheers --Beth

[Peter Morgano]

Unfortunately everyone cant own a Rivendell, it is a bit of a luxury item but one that is beautiful and functional. So unlike a set of earrings or a new watch you can actually do something with a 2k Rivendell. This new project will at least lower that cost restriction but it will still be "insane" for the Xmart crowd and those who get 30 year old racing bikes for 200 bucks off of CL but if does help to bring them into the fold.  Looking at the site they have a complete Simpleone for $1,400 which they said is about thier target on this new bike. I suppose if you used cheaper tubing and did a solid color powdercoat you could get some microshift stuff on there for around the same price point.

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[PATRICK MOORE]

I guess that the Xmart crowd often (not always, of course) spends high
$ on cars and big trucks a lot fancier than many listers own, along
with big TVs, electronic junk and fancy phones/service, at least to
judge by what I see in the parking lot and on the shelves at my (as
rare as possible) trips to the WalMart near my mother's house.

I hope the new bike has horizontal dropouts.

[Peter Morgano]

+1 on all that, especially horizontal drops

[justin...@gmail.com]

$1400 isn't a huge premium over the CrossCheck and Long Haul Trucker completes, which I would suggest are eating away at the bottom of the Rivendell market. The LHT is SO common here in Philly, built up straight from Surly. I think the are a lot of folks who could be upsold a couple hundred dollars to get lugs, Riv name, etc.

My questions:
- 1" or 1 1/8"?
- Dropouts - horizontal to also do SS builds?
- Kickstand plate?

[dougP]

On Jul 3, 10:00 pm, Manuel Acosta <manueljohnaco...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

> Beater Rivendell? I thought all Rivendells are suppose to be ridden to the
> ground?

Manny:

You can't ride a Riv to the ground; they're just too tough. You can
wear out a lot of parts, tear up the paint pretty bad; dent it
here'n'there, but as to seriously rendering it non-ridable / non-
fixable / only-good-to-recycle, you'd have to crash hard enough to
bend multiple tubes.

There's a series of photos, maybe in the Atlantis gallery, of one a
guy had ridden all over the world. The shot that stands in my mind
was taken in Morocco. The bike looked to be on it's last legs
visually. Subsequent photos show a brand new looking bike after re-
paint.

You could probably neglect one into a condition where it would look
like a beater, but all the good components would still work, and the
nice lugs & headtube paint would give it away.

dougP

[Steve Palincsar]

On Wed, 2012-07-04 at 11:53 -0400, Peter Morgano wrote:
> +1 on all that, especially horizontal drops

Why? They're an enormous pain in the a$$ with no benefit for users of
derailleur drive trains, and this bike is coming with a derailleur drive
train.

[James Warren]

Agreed. Verticals are so much nicer on a derailler bike, and you never have to worry about wheel slippage when using QR.

-Jim W.

Sent from my iPhone

[Seth Vidal]

Heartily agreed, steve.

-sv

[Garth]

I admire the desire for sure .... but I am scratching my head ...

First .... even if that can build a prototype for $1400 .... the real bike will be more like $1600-1800. I base this on the their history of introducing frames at a price but they go up very quickly.  Look at the Atlantis and Bombadil for example .... lol.  I know nothing of the economics of pricing a frame and labor costs and all that .... but from what I've seen Riv frames have increased substantially compared to any other steel frames over the last 10 years.  Myself it doesn't matter where they are made and don't care for the argument of why it costs more to be built wherever.  Just ask what you want for the frames and be proud of it , however you want to do it. No need to justify it. Those that are happy to pay will do so.

Second.  Compete with the LHT ?  That's a very tough sell.  Most people don't know what a lug is, let alone prefer them !  While I like lugs too, I'd have no qualms over buying a frame without them well.  Lugs are not infallible ... the workmanship is what matters most... to me.  You also have the Surly name .... brand name matters ... like it or not.  When you say Surly .... some people react like in the 70's with a Beetle .... "AWW .... I want one too :) " .... just because it's perceived as something special.

Third, Parts.  A less expensive crankset is needed.  Taiwan has some decent ones... Andel brand comes to mind. That's what Surly uses on many of their bikes now in doubles and triples.
Wheels would have to be machine built of course ... but they can be good, it just depends on the machine I suppose. Cheaper Kalloy seatposts ...  saddles .. stems ....bars ... all would be in the cards.

[Peter Morgano]

Bah, horizontal drops worked well for decades and the give the option to go SS or internal, why not have options?  Setting a wheel straight in a dropout takes about 30 seconds.

[Steve Palincsar]

On Wed, 2012-07-04 at 13:22 -0400, Peter Morgano wrote:
> Bah, horizontal drops worked well for decades and the give the option
> to go SS or internal, why not have options? Setting a wheel straight
> in a dropout takes about 30 seconds.

Horizontal dropouts NEVER worked "well." They worked lousy, and they
slipped even with the "good" style quick releases -- and these days, the
good style quick releases are getting scarce. Why should most of us
suffer so that a tiny handful have the option to remove the supplied
drive train on this bargain basement Riv and pay extra to install an
internal gear hub?

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[Garth]

I would embrace horizontal dropouts too.   I've never had an issue with one since the 70's ... ever .  Vertical I have had issues.

[PATRICK MOORE]

I agree that verticals are better for derailleurs, but what about
buyers who may want to use a ss hub or hub gear? Are they to be
deprived of the cheapest Rivendell?

Note that this comes from someone who overrode Grant's suggestion of
horizontals for two customs and ended up fixi-fying them: one with an
ENO and one with replacement 1010s.

[PATRICK MOORE]

Steve: First, no one who is competent ever had more than 1/2 second's
drawback putting a derailleur wheel into horizontal dropouts. Second,
as to the argument from who is to suffer for others' convenience, that
is surely a double edged sword and reduces to "I want" versus "they
want."

As to the availability of sturdy, steel internal-cam QRs, if all the
cheap MTB and second bike boom road bike QRs disappear off the market,
Riv can source them from some obscure Shanghai maker and add them to
the build kit for those who (strangely) want derailleurs * for a
sizable premium.

* Why would you want to mar, disfigure, upset, compromise, handicap,
uglify and depreciate a **Rivendell** -- even the cheapest!! -- with a
(gawd-DAMN!!) derailleur??!!

[Peter Morgano]

20 years of riding at least 10 different bikes with horizontal drops,  never an issue with slipping and again 30 seconds to set up oh and I am 240 and rode fixes with horizontal drops, again no slipping. Options are nice, especially if they want to get a broad audience. 

[newenglandbike]

+1 for no problems with horiz. dropouts and QRs.     I certainly haven't had any issues with slippage on my quickbeam with the stock Suzue QR hub, and I've really stomped on the pedals sometimes.      BUT, I do like vertical dropouts nonetheless, since they are just that much easier when you're fixing a flat or what not since the wheel is aligned as soon as you drop it in.    If you want to make a SS/fixie, you have eccentric hubs.

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[James Warren]

I've had slipping rear wheel problems, it's annoying, and I've even heard of some reputable people struggle with it. We're capable of functioning with horizontals, but as Steve said, they can be a pain.

- Jim W.

Sent from my iPhone

[Peter Morgano]

I like how anyone who wants options is like a leper, haha.  "you have eccentric hubs"  Let us eat cake!

[PATRICK MOORE]

I used an ENO on my first (1994) Riv custom and found that the brake
bridge was low enough that my 32 mm tire would rub the fender under
said bridge unless I took the trouble to rotate the hub *downward*
when uptaking chain slack -- an operation that I personally judge to
be 25.97865473% harder than installing a wheel straight into
horizontal dropouts on a derailleur bike. (On another, non-Riv ENO
conversion, I discovered that the ENO's takeup would not extend to
three teeth, while at the same time discovering that it did extend to
marginalizing the rear brake pads unless I fiddled with a compromise
placement.)

[Steve Palincsar]

On Wed, 2012-07-04 at 11:39 -0600, PATRICK MOORE wrote:
>
> * Why would you want to mar, disfigure, upset, compromise, handicap,
> uglify and depreciate a **Rivendell** -- even the cheapest!! -- with a
> (gawd-DAMN!!) derailleur??!!
>

You do realize the bike in question will come delivered with
derailleurs, according to the Riv blog?

[PATRICK MOORE]

The question stands.

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[Philip Williamson]

I'm a giant fan of fixed gear bikes, but I'm tired of horizontal dropouts. If a bike is made for derailleurs, vertical makes more sense. I might prefer verticals all around, and use an eccentric ENO hub. Most of my aspirational bikes come with Phil eccentric bottom brackets to get the advantage of verticality. 

 Philip

Philip Williamson

www.biketinker.com

[Joe Bernard]

People PLEASE. If Grant wants to snag some Surly/SOMA buyers with a cheaper Rivendell sold as a complete derailer bike, he's gonna use verticals like they do. If any Riv were a candidate for "eccentric dropouts", it would be the HS/Rosco/Bosco, which is not intended to have a front derailer. This not-for-big-hills cruiser is a better candidate for SS or IGH.

 

Joe "please produce the Bosco" Bernard

Vallejo, CA.

[newenglandbike]

"I like how anyone who wants options is like a leper, haha.  "you have eccentric hubs"  Let us eat cake!"

LOL!   It's a bike Rivendell might offer, that might have vertical dropouts, or might have horizontal ones.     Both afford the user options, both have drawbacks.   Nobody is shunning/oppressing anybody, I don't think!      This is a bicycle forum, so expect some zealotry but don't let it make you feel bad.    :)

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[Peter Morgano]

Haha,  it was just a funny comment to me since it came off so patronizing. We all have our perfect bike in our mind and doubtful we would all agree on the same thing but it is fun to "discuss"  our difference in opinions.

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[cyclotourist]

I've developed a problem w/ horizontals on one of my bikes. Never had a problem before or with other bikes, but it's pretty frustrating and possibly going to be an expensive fix. I foolishly ordered horizontal when I had it built thinking I wanted the option of riding it SS. Mistakes were made, lessons learned...

Cheers,
David
Redlands, CA

**
“I believe in an America where millions of Americans believe in an America that’s the America millions of Americans believe in. That’s the America I love.”

[James Warren]

I apologize to Peter for sounding patronizing.

Happy 4th of July, everyone.

-Jim W.

P.S. Just came back from a great sibling/nephew ride in coastal San Diego. It was Hillbornian. Details to follow.

Sent from my iPhone

[Peter Morgano]

No need to apologize, hope everyone stays safe today.

[grant]

Dropout-style is up to Keven and Brian--as are many-most-maybe all of the other stuff. Fixie fanatics will feel perturbed if it has verticals, and yet the arguments for verticals are good, too---. I will look things over, and have coached K and B minorly in frame design stuff--how to determine drop, how seat tube angle and it affect standover, and just some basics like that, but both are smart, both understand the nature of the bike and goal, and I'm looking forward to it. It may not happen--remember that---after a certain point, if we have to compromise too much to get the price where we want it to be, we'll just say, "Not for us" and be done with it.
We're not exactly "going after" Surley. We are all Surley fans here, and continue to recommend those bikes--and the Salsa Mariachi, and other relatively low-priced not dumb bikes. The LHT shouldn't be threatened by this bike---it'll be a different deal. Obviously they or any other two half-practical bikes can be set up to do the same stuff, but this is the bike we'd be doing whether or not those neat bikes existed. Good luck, Keven and Brian!

On Tuesday, July 3, 2012 3:24:49 PM UTC-7, Zack wrote:

Just got an email from Riv HQ, there is a new bike in the works - a truly affordable ($1400) complete bike.

Cool stuff.  

Shipping is going up $1 too.  I think i'll live.

[Montclair BobbyB]

As a former P/R owner (and a big fan of your Gen 1 P/R, Steve), I agree... but in the end, even Kogswell (and its shoestring operation) somehow became unsustainable, fading into bicycle folklore, hereafter to be known as "Grimm's Fairy Tale".... (Sorry, I couldn't resist that one... that was truly bad)...

 

On Wednesday, July 4, 2012 10:30:07 AM UTC-4, Patrick Moore wrote:

I had my erstwhile Herse powdercoated by someone accustomed to doing
bikes and it was beautiful. Yes, thicker around the lugs than paint if
you looked closely, but really not noticeable unless you expected to
find it. Heck, it may well have been nicer than the original paint,
which was pretty intact before the job -- tho' this paint may itself
not have been original, of course.

I'd not hesitate to have this man do my commuter Riv -- and just might
do that, curly lugs and all, one day.

On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 10:40 PM, Peter Morgano <uscpet...@gmail.com> wrote:
> You think powder coated to save cash too?  It can be done nice for alot
> cheaper than wet.  You do lose some definition around lugs but for a
> "beater"  shouldn't be an issue.

[Joe Bernard]

I'm pretty sure it's meant affectionately/ironically.

 

Joe Bernard

Vallejo, CA.

On Friday, July 6, 2012 5:37:58 PM UTC-7, Duplomacette wrote:

Sad when a $1400 bike is referred to as a "beater".