What would Taubes put in a Boxy (or Candy Bar) Bag for a long ride

[reynoldslugs]

Sorry to resuscitate a dying thread, but here goes:

I like the way the Taubes/Paleo makes me feel - -won't rehash.
Problem I have is long rides - - 4 to 12 hours. I have not figured
out the "Taubesian" foods work to keep you going during the ride, or
how to handle that feeling of post-ride starvation.

What do you eat during the ride, and how do you handle the post-ride
meal?

I don't think I should be putting Candy Bars in my Candy Bar Bag, but
hard boiled eggs and raw broccoli aren't getting me through the long
days.

Any suggestions?

Thanks. I know this post is not really Rivendell related, and the
"Candy Bar Bag" humor is weak.

RL

[David Faller]

During an energy-hogging ride it doesn't seem to matter how you eat.
Your body is desperately looking for available calories, probably at a
rate faster than you can digest them and make them available. 200 cal.
per hour is probably all one should eat while riding to maintain the
energy flow. A friend of mine does many centuries and double centuries
per year. He is 53 years old, gaunt, and subsists on alarming
quantities of raw vegetables while riding. He has the energy of a 25
year old. But when he takes a break on the side of the road, his number
one craving is those hot Fritos. He shamelessly snarfs down those and
all sorts of other nasty things like Cup O' Noodles and cookies, etc.
Not very Paleo, but he's working so hard that he's burning those
calories while idling. Post ride, he gets back to the proteins, with
some carbs, and is quite satisfied; I don't think he ends the ride with
a 4,000 calorie refuel. I can't say it sounds as fun or rewarding as a
spaghetti feed or a BBQ with all the goodies, but he seems to do this
effortlessly.

Personally, I'm all for pizza and beer after the ride...

[Garth]

Fresh fruit of your choice. My favorite though is fresh dates.... Batista dates are the best I've had. I'm talking fresh raw dates here...yes they still have the pits too. Pop some in your mouth and spit out the seed. The difference between these and store bought packaged and processes dates is like night and day. Fresh ones are juicy and gooey.... better than any candy on earth. Medjool and Khadawry are my favorites, but there's many others. They're great on the bike because they don't get effected by the heat and vibration...and a small amount goes a long way. Fresh dates are never dried btw.... so they don't require extra water like dried fruit does to make it digestible.

[Zack]

macadamia nuts, pepperoni or salami, some almonds, fruit.

i have also seen some crazy paleo bar and cookie recipes, but they tend to use tons of honey.  not sure how i feel about those.  

[reynoldslugs]

Thanks for the replies. I'm going in for fruit. Dates and Prunes.

How Many Pitts to Pittsburgh?

Thanks.

RL

[Allan in Portland]

Oysters :-)

[Aaron Thomas]

You can get Garth's suggestion of dates with Zach's for nuts in the pre-fab form of a Lara bar. Despite the variety of flavors, they're all basically some combination of nuts and dates or other dried fruits, with no added sugar or other b.s. I like the one called cashew cookie. Peanut butter is good too, as is cherry pie.

I usually crave salty things on long rides. If I want to bring real food rather than a bar, I usually bring a small sandwich of prosciutto (or jamon serrano) and cheese, like Manchego, with no condiment. I usually use french baguette as the bread, because it holds its shape, doesn't crumble, and has some toothiness to it when you bite into it.

[Brett Lindenbach]

I like a salami and almond butter sammich for ridin'. You can keep the carb count low with flatbread. Delish! (my inlays think I'm nuts)

[Brett Lindenbach]

Er, inlaws. Da,n autpcorrec

[Anne Paulson]

Medjool dates are delicious. Spanish ham with manchego on a baguette is delectable. But I fail to understand how either remotely fits a low carb diet.

On Sunday, August 14, 2011, Aaron Thomas <aaron.a...@gmail.com> wrote:
> You can get Garth's suggestion of dates with Zach's for nuts in the pre-fab form of a Lara bar. Despite the variety of flavors, they're all basically some combination of nuts and dates or other dried fruits, with no added sugar or other b.s. I like the one called cashew cookie. Peanut butter is good too, as is cherry pie.
> I usually crave salty things on long rides. If I want to bring real food rather than a bar, I usually bring a small sandwich of prosciutto (or jamon serrano) and cheese, like Manchego, with no condiment. I usually use french baguette as the bread, because it holds its shape, doesn't crumble, and has some toothiness to it when you bite into it.
>

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[Seth Vidal]

On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 12:01 AM, Anne Paulson <anne.p...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Medjool dates are delicious. Spanish ham with manchego on a baguette is
> delectable. But I fail to understand how either remotely fits a low carb
> diet.
>

I wonder how figs work in this kind of diet. I've found dried figs are
good on a long ride - with a handful of almonds and some string cheese
- that's everything I want most of the time.

-sv

[Amit Singh]

Nuts.

I really enjoy the challenge of shelling and consuming pistachios while riding up steep grades.  Bonus: it helps improve bicycle handling skills.

Seriously, I enjoy almonds, walnuts, pecans, macadamia.  

My riding buddies and I make homemade "Larabars" to consume during longer rides.

Here's a good recipe:

Chopped dates (fresh, I like fresh medjool, don't forget to remove the seed!)

Almonds or pecans or both (roasted)

Dried Pineapple (unsweetened)

Dried Cranberries (unsweetened)

Dark Chocolate Chips (80% and above, semi-sweet)

Sea Salt

Dried Shredded Coconut (unsweetened)

Combine dates, almonds, pineapple, cranberries, chocolate chips and sea salt in a food processor until mixed.  I like texture so mine remains plenty chunky.  Divide mixture into single-sized servings and roll and shape into bicycle wheel hubs.  Roll into shredded coconut to coat and to prevent super-sticky fingers and refrigerate until hard.  Cover with plastic wrap and take them on your rides to eat and share with friends.  They'll love you for the yummy treats.

[grant]

Lewis and Clark ate 9 pounds of meat a day, and hardly any anything
else. Eskimos eat muscle and fat only. There are historical
precendents for it, even in high-active people (can't bring myself to
write "peoples")

I've thought/obsessed over/read about this a lot in the last year and
a half, and armed with the confidence that comes with an A.A. degree
(general studies), I can tell you how it seems to work. I am not
declaring this as an authoritative answer, but I believe it completely
based on what I've read and my own experience and experiments.

1. If you have five pounds of fat, that's 17,500 calories of fuel. An
hour of hard, dreadful riding burns about 750 calories, depending on
your own physiology. A groovy medium-effort ride may burn 400 calories
an hour. Hey, if it's flattish and you're enjoying it, maybe 300
calories. You have tons of fuel for days of riding without
eating.....as long as you fuel your rides with your fat. You still
have to drink, and may need to replenish some calcium and potassium
and salt, but you can do that in low-to-no carb ways.

2. You can think of your exercising (riding) as having three zones,
depending on effort level as determined by heart rate. The numbers
you're about to read are approximate for most people, and at least
make the point. Here goes:

• below 70 percent of max heart rate, your muscles can easily get all
the oxygen they need from body fat. BUT if you have high insulin
levels in your blood (from power bars, gatorade, bananas, and yes,
even the sainted medjool date), then your body stops burning fat right
NOW, and will burn the glucose instead. You cannot access your body
fat as fuel when your blood is swimming with insulin. Insulin is a
metabolic hormone that dictates fuel usage.

Practically, this means you can ride happily and comfortably without
even eating. I can and often have ridden 4-hours without food, even at
a decent effort. I drink.

• in the training zone, btw about 70 and high 80s percent of
maxheartrate, you will still burn fat in the absence of blood insulin,
BUT...you'll lose efficiency, because carbs are better at supplying
your muscles with the high levels of oxygen that harder efforts
demand. If you race, you need the carbs. Or, if you plan to ride a
fast brevet, eat the dates.

If you're a Walter Mitty type even on solo rides or disorganized rides
with friends, then for all intents and purposes you are a racer, and
will benefit from carbs.

There is good and bad.
Good is: You can eat the goopy tasty carbs without the glucose-insulin
spike, because you burn them up.
Bad is: You're burning up your chow, not your fat.

There's no way around this. If you want to go low-carb for 90 percent
of the time, but can't stand the idea of never again eating your
favorite high-carb treats, eat them before and during a longish
hardish ride.

• most people are anaerobic above 90 percent of MHR. You can't ride
that hard for more than about 40 seconds, and even repeated intervals
don't depend on dietary chow. You will be slightly more efficient
(faster) with high glucose levels (and insulin) than with low-glucose
(from carbless eats), but intervals are a sometime-thing, and the
whole point is to supertax and supercharge your muscles, makem
stronger by tearing them down so they rebuild better...and train them
to become more insulin-sensitive (which helps keep you lean because
when your muscles are insulin-sensitive, you don't shoot out as much
insulin in response to carbs, and less insulin means less fat creation
and storage).

Also, exercising anaerobically on what amounts to an empty stomach
(don't eat, keep insulin low), your body responds by releasing more
growth hormone...which helps insulin sensitivity. Body builders and
pro athletes take GH to get lean...and it works by helping them build
muscle, and lean mass/muscle contributes to insulin sensitivity.

This IS how it works, but then you look at skinny pros chomping down
carbs and touting them, and you get the message that carbs are good.
They're not believable spokesmodels for that kind of eating (or that
kind of riding). They can eat that way and ride that way and for the
most part stay lean because of genetics. Their sport (racing) selects
for certain body types and inherited physiologies, the same way that
basketball selects for tallies, and gymnastics for shorties. You
wouldn't start to shoot hoops because you wanted to grow a few inches,
but bike riders all the time copy racers because they're told they'll
look the same way (or close) if they eat and ride that way.

The best low-carb electrolyte replacement drinks are tomato juice and
coconut milk (Big Moo has made it illegal to call any whitish
guzzlable liquid "milk" unless it came from an udder, but when I grew
up it was "coconut MILK", and I'm sticking with that.

Both have phenomenal potassium-to-carb ratios. The tomatoe juice is
generally high in salt, too. You could add salt to cocomilk. Salt and
potassium are by far the most important electrolytes (of about 7) that
you need to replace.

So the low-carb cycler rides below 70 percent and fuels rides with
fat; or gives up efficiency on harder clubby rides; and sprints now
and then on an empty stomach, because big deal anyway for the short
bursts, and may as well shoot out some growth hormone, which you can't
do with insulin-from-carbs in your blood.

(Something like that.)

Grant "Scientistic, not Scientifc" Petersen, A.A.

[grant]

The long thing below from yesterday is not complete. There are things
it doesn't address (gluconeogenesis, cortisol, and their effect on
fuel usage)..but for a nudge in the right direction...it is good
enough. I should have said "old timey Eskimos" eat nothing but
meat...since I'm sure new timey ones somehow manage to get their
Cheetos, what with the internet and trading posts and snow mobiles and
all. Over and out for me on this...G

[George Schick]

Having decided to take the Paleo Plunge, I too wondered about what to
carry on longish rides. I finally settled on a tin of kipper snacks
or a beef stick along with two Kleen Kanteens, one filled with water
the other half full of a dry red wine (following the fermentation
process the only carbs left in the wine are in the alcohol).

[Lisa]

Larabars are mostly dates with just a couple of additional ingredients (no chemicals), depending on the flavor.  For instance, the "cashew cookie" flavor contains just dates and cashews.  They are convenient for long rides since they come wrapped in serving-sized portions.  I like the boxes of 12 mini-bars; one of those minis every hour or so is about right for me when I'm on a daylong ride.

[John Guerry]

It may not sound very healthy but I love having a giant Payday bar on
a long ride, the peanuts for some protein, the goo that holds them
together for carbs, and the salt on the nuts for some electrolytes.
For me it is the perfect ride food. I do eat a lot of fruit, found a
farm stand in the middle of a metric last Friday and ate a couple of
the best peaches I've ever had!

John G.
Ballwin, MO

On Aug 14, 7:30 pm, reynoldslugs <be...@perrylaw.net> wrote:

[robert zeidler]

My experience has shown, (I'm about the same age as Grant, what 29?),
that once glycogen is gone it's gone. I'm 6'6" and around 230. I
keep track of stuff like mileage, wattage etc., purely as a
interesting thing to do. Haven't raced since '92, and ride mostly
solo because I want to do what I want to do when I want to do it.
Point being I can pay attention to whether I feel good, bad, or
otherwise. On rides over 2 hours, on just water, I finish with just
the beginnings of nail-gunned legs. Recovery is hard, weight stays
the same. After reading Paleo for Athletes, and doing the
calculations, I ingest some Shot Bloks w/ water about 10 min before
starting out-no insulin spike because you start burning it as soon as
it's available. At around 1 hour, and then every 45 min thereafter, I
ingest a Gu, etc., and mix in a Honey stinger waffle for variety, not
together but every 45 min or so. This is the fuel that burns fat.
It's a delicate balance to be sure. But I have access to one of those
fancy scales that measures hydration, body fat etc. After losing
approx 20 lbs (after, admittedly, a very bad winter), my weight has
plateaued but my body fat % has continued to decrease. I'd like to
continue to lower my body weight and will probably do so w/ more
consistent training, and water intake-there is only one way fat leaves
your body, when you pee. Half your body weight in ounces is what you
should drink every day. (200 lbs=100oz/H2O). You'll be inconvenienced
a lot but it will work.

YMMV however.

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[dave]

There are energy bars that are low in carbs and sugar but high in
protein. You just have to read many labels at the store to find
them. They tend to be targeted at body builders. They are filling.

[robert zeidler]

In "Paleo Diet for Athletes", stuff like gels, etc., are allowed and
matter-of-factly permitted. I follow this Paleo things pretty
closely, but liberally partake of Clif Shots, Shot Bloks, and Honey
Stinger Waffles. In said book there is a aformula to calculate the
amount of Carb, protein, and fluid intake for a given event. Well
worth reading as a companion to Taubes' book.

[robert zeidler]

P.S., I use a protein drink for recovery though I'm dying to try skim
chocolate milk.

On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 7:30 PM, reynoldslugs <be...@perrylaw.net> wrote:

[Eric Daume]

I make some trail mix with raw almonds, raisins, unsweetened coconut, and chocolate chips or (ideally, if I have any around) dark chocolate. I'm not sure how well it works as fuel, but it's darn tasty.

Eric

[Minh]

I went looking for a Larabar recipies and found this
http://www.healthhabits.ca/2010/06/18/homemade-larabar-recipes/
i was curious how this woman eats 2 bars per workout! How long does
she work out, are these bars less calories then regular energy bars?

They do not look appetizing (i find very few bars appetizing looking),
but i'm willing to try them, i like the no additional sugar part.
However i have this sneaking suspicion that there is an ethnic/basic
equivalent of these bars. I find it hard to believe that no-one
before Larabars came up with this recipe of dates and nuts...

[Tim Whalen]

I have long considered dates to be the original powerbar, and will eat them but have to be pretty darn desperate before I'll eat any bar.  Obviously though many people are just the opposite.  What I do like for long ride refueling is a ham sandwich, or two, made with the best ham and bread I can find, with olive oil on the bread.  I can feel the rejuvenation when the sandwich hits a half or or so after eating.

Tim

[charlie]

Well you have to ask yourself the real question.....that is, If you
are eating "paleo" are you exercising paleo? Unless you are riding at
a lower pace (similar to the output of a walker) you will need to
consume a higher amount of carbohydrate. Fruit and veggies are the
natural thing for that. If you are riding 4-12 hours, eat fats,
protein, veggies, nuts, fruit.... just like when you are not riding.
This assumes you are trying to burn fat as you ride. Unless you
continually 'top off' with carbs you'll soon be out of glucose anyway
and will have to burn fat for energy. I think they call it 'the bonk'.
I've just come to the conclusion that I don't like riding that long or
that hard. If I can't finish my riding in a 5-6 hour day, I'm going to
do the sensible thing and take a rest, eat some food and go to sleep
until the next day. The best post ride food in my mind would be the
same thing I eat normally just a little more of it. For protein, eggs
or fish seem to digest better for me than a steak but the fat in the
steak satiates better after exercising. I also like the way I feel
eating primarily vegetables and meat. During a ride you ask........I
eat fruit or nuts or berries maybe even a little turkey jerky or a
teriyaki stick. Most of my riding these days however is two hours at a
time or less so I rarely eat when I ride and just drink some water.
I've also taken to riding my new SimpleOne and I've changed the way I
ride and do more gut busting climbing coupled with easy spinning and
coasting and some high velocity spinning for the fast twitch fibers.
Kind of a interval type of thing like when I commute to work from
light to light. On the few longer rides I've done I slow my pace quite
a bit and plod along.

On Aug 14, 5:30 pm, reynoldslugs <be...@perrylaw.net> wrote:

[Darin G.]

I've had a tough time with this aspect of long rides, paleo or not,
and tend to get a "sweet stomach" from gatorade, energy gels, blocks,
etc, but on longer rides I bonk if I don't eat, which ruins the ride
(or hike or ski, or whatever) and presents a dilemma. I tend to do
best eating eggs, sausage and a small serving of potatoes for
breakfast and then eating "food" along the way, be it pizza or a
sandwich with fruit, especially apples, and maybe some carrot sticks
and cucumbers. I'd probably eat meatloaf and mashed potatoes if my
mom were to meet me along the way. I'm going to try grilled cheese
sandwiches this winter. The pizza and sandwich are not paleo for
sure, but I'm more interested in avoiding the bonk while not getting
nauseous, and I don't know how it matters when you're burning 5,000
calories on the ride. I'm obviously not a nutritionist and perhaps
there is a precise way to dose yourself with pure paleo food and not
bonk but in the make-it-up-as-I-go-along world this is the best I've
come up with. I usually do not eat anything on rides shorter than 3
hours which seems to work well for me.

My brother-in-law developed the Pro-Bar which is one of the more
palatable bars (lots of fat, seeds, etc.) and I keep one in my saddle
bag as a back up. I asked him about a digestible energy source for
long events and he said he tells cross-country skiers and distance
cyclists to take a baked potato in a ziplock with a little olive oil
and salt. You could take it a step further and make it a yam or a
sweet potato. Put it in a rubbermaid container in your saddle bag.
Each potato comes out around 200 calories and slightly less than 50
grams of easily digested carbohydrate. Its gotta taste better than
the crap they serve at the aid stations at most century rides and Mark
Sisson seems to be generally approving of potatoes as an energy
source.

The real challenge for me is the day after the long ride. The day of
the ride my appetite tends to be suppressed by the activity
(especially if its hot) but it comes back with a vengeance the next
day which makes diet compliance difficult. I spent today fantasizing
about a Margherita pizza for instance and I started salivating just
reading the post above about jamon with manchego on baguette. Still
working on tweaking the post long ride menu.

[Zack]

Today, on my maiden voyage for the new Sam Hillborne, I remembered that a friend had let me know about a wild blackberry stash in town.  I rode over, picked berries, turned my hands red, and ate them.  I then rode home.  Pretty solid way to spend the day.

I'll put some pics up later.   

Nothing more paleo than scaring up some berries!

[charlie]

When that happens eat more fats and protein plus veggies not carbs. I
just eat a big steak and a huge salad then top it off with
strawberries and home made whip cream using stevia to 'sweeten'. It
satiates me just fine, is low carb and I get enough calories. Doing
this now for a while and still losing fat. If I eat the carbs I get on
a vicious circle of wanting more later.

[reynoldslugs]

Thanks, Everyone, for the input.

I rode today and got in six hours, stopped after three hours at the
Dairy Queen drive-through and got a triple cheese burger, side order
of fries and a big-ass coke.

No bonk!

seriously... just going with a little fruit now, we'll see how it
goes.

regards all around

> > > RL

[charlie]

You'd be better off to eat more than a little fruit.........maybe a
medium amount. I think sometimes just taking a break and having a meal
is perfect. I mean if your goal is (just) to get somewhere, take a
break. If you are training for some kind of event I guess you have to
eat on the ride but I figure Grok took a break then resumed trekking
into the wilderness in search of wild game or an elusive cave woman.
Actually, I suppose Grok nibbled on nuts and berries along the way
too. I'm looking forward to getting one of those nifty lightweight
stoves and might do some longer meandering rides with a picnic style
break and a hot cup of coffee (probably not a Grok bev but I like
coffee) plus I like the time to reflect and enjoy a nice view. I just
can't get into the long grueling slog while only looking straight
ahead anymore.

[Tim McNamara]

On Aug 17, 2011, at 1:16 AM, charlie wrote:

> Actually, I suppose Grok nibbled on nuts and berries along the way
> too.

Grok probably ate everything he could get his hands on whenever it was available, his food supply being unpredictable. That's why agriculture developed.

[Khalid Mateen]

I think you are right.  If you are doing long distances, your body wants calories and it will look towards anything for those calories, even starchy carbohydrates.  I think starchy carbohydrates are appropiate in this instance because your body insulin may go up, but the sugar in the blood is being pushed into the muscle where it is needed most and not stored as body fat.  Although I have not read his book, Lorain Cordain suggest high carbohydrates after a workout or after you used alot of energy and need fuel for a workout or activity.  I do think if you are going to eat carbohydrates, make sure it is the good stuff if you can get them like rice, pasta,yam and bread.  These can be use to help recover from extreme long bike rides and not feel drain the next day.  Even good sources of fat since fat has about calories in it and fat can be used to convert to sugar in the body.

 

K.

On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 8:54 PM, David Faller <dfa...@charter.net> wrote:

During an energy-hogging ride it doesn't seem to matter how you eat.  Your body is desperately looking for available calories, probably at a rate faster than you can digest them and make them available.  200 cal. per hour is probably all one should eat while riding to maintain the energy flow.  A friend of mine does many centuries and double centuries per year.  He is 53 years old, gaunt, and subsists on alarming quantities of raw vegetables while riding.  He has the energy of a 25 year old.  But when he takes a break on the side of the road, his number one craving is those hot Fritos.  He shamelessly snarfs down those and all sorts of other nasty things like Cup O' Noodles and cookies, etc.  Not very Paleo, but he's working so hard that he's burning those calories while idling.  Post ride, he gets back to the proteins, with some carbs, and is quite satisfied; I don't think he ends the ride with a 4,000 calorie refuel.  I can't say it sounds as fun or rewarding as a spaghetti feed or a BBQ with all the goodies, but he seems to do this effortlessly.

Personally, I'm all for pizza and beer after the ride...

On 8/14/2011 5:30 PM, reynoldslugs wrote:

Sorry to resuscitate a dying thread, but here goes:

I like the way the Taubes/Paleo makes me feel - -won't rehash.
Problem I have is long rides - - 4 to 12 hours.  I have not figured
out the "Taubesian" foods work to keep you going during the ride, or
how to handle that feeling of post-ride starvation.

What do you eat during the ride, and how do you handle the post-ride
meal?

I don't think I should be putting Candy Bars in my Candy Bar Bag, but
hard boiled eggs and raw broccoli aren't getting me through the long
days.

Any suggestions?

Thanks.  I know this post is not really Rivendell related, and the
"Candy Bar Bag" humor is weak.

RL

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[René Sterental]

Grant,

 

Thank you for summarizing the approach so well.

 

Robert,

 

Thanks for the additional feedback and details.

 

My question is... why does my body feel so beat up, tired and drained after several days of longer or continous rides? I do get the eating cravings after a hard for me ride sometimes, and when I do, it drives me crazy!

 

What can I do about those feelings and cravings and how can I avoid them in the first place?

 

René

[Tim McNamara]

Eat more during your rides.

[charlie]

All of this depends on what your goals are and how you
"train"......I'm interested in losing body fat and could care less if
I win the local triathlon or whatever. There is no reason in my mind
to load up, eat while riding or recover utilizing starchy carbs. You
can get the same thing from vegetables and or some fruits without the
insulin spike problems etc. For recovery.... protein and fat sure
makes some sense especially in light of recent training advice to
drink sugar laden chocolate milk (protein and fat) I'll take a chunk
of chicken,salmon or a steak coupled with a boat load of fresh salad
and other assorted greens with olive oil and whatever else my wife
uses in her her low carb dressing. Doesn't the body normally only
store about two hours worth of glucose anyway. I mean at some point
you would have to burn fat on a long ride anyway....why not train
yourself to do that instead of topping off with simple carbohydrate.
Just saying...........on the other hand, if you are a competitive
athlete and you want to log 100 mile days you are probably not
interested in the health aspect but would instead want to improve
performance and recovery at whatever cost to health. I think however
that there are trainers (and authors with books) out there who
specialize in 'paleo' diets for athletes. Can't remember the title of
the one I'm thinking of but you can probably Google it.

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[René Sterental]

I'm definitely interested in losing weight and couldn't really care how fast I ride. I'm just unable at this time to sustain several days of riding for 2 hours each one and one day of rest doesn't seem to be enough. I'm not eating during my rides and only drink water. Trying to follow the low carb plan which I've gotten pretty good for the most part, but have yet to nail precisely for a prolonged time. I'm gluten free and now decided to go dairy free as well, although not yet 100% but almost. Not sure what nuts I can or cannot eat, some days I eat a lot of fruit, some days very little. My meals are mostly meat/fish and salad/vegetables although I'm tempted to add hummus at night. Probably still eating quantities that are too large... 

Anyway, I've read Taubes and will give Sisson a good reading as well as I just skimmed it.

I just wanted to get a sense for how best to address the feeling of weariness after riding several days in a row; is it just lack of conditioning and this will come over time? I ride almost all the time at 70 - 75% of Max HR except when mountain biking on weekends when during the steeper climbs I can hit 100% of Max HR.

Will keep at it and see how it goes... the advise on this thread has been quite useful.

René

[grant]

Aside from the occasional tiny bowl of Ben & Jerry's Coffee Health Bar
Crunch, my own personal/done good treat is a pretty low carb mixup of
Trader Joe's NonFat Greek Yogurt (oddly or mislabeledly, it has fewer
carbs than the lo-far or full-fat Greek---and all Greeks have way less
than nonGreeks)...and then the Choco protein powder TJ's sells ---
the one that has 1g of carbs per scoop and is called something like
"Elegant Slim" or some embarassing name like that. Then I mix it with
walnuts (lowest carb nuts, highest O-3 nuts, and my fav, anyway) and
blueberries, fresh or half-frozen.
My daughters and wife can't stand it, not even a spoonful, but what do
they know? Anyway, a whole giant bowl LOOKS like the real thing (ice
cream with goodies in it), and tastes about 1/3 as good....but that's
not bad. It has only about 10 to 20g of carbs in the whole
thing....which these days, is indulgent. It's nice to have a heaping
mound of brown smooth stuff in front of you now and then.

Coco-milk is good, too. Low-carb, high-pota. Freeze it, let it thaw
halfway, and the liquidy part half is super sweet--I think the sugar
in it is first-to-thaw. Then you drink the sweety coconut part. The
bad part is, the remaining chunk that hasn't thawed yet is just
basically a chunk of faintly coconut-tainted ice, and --- you've
already drunk the sweet stuff.

[Seth Vidal]

On Thu, Aug 18, 2011 at 10:31 AM, grant <gran...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Coco-milk is good, too. Low-carb, high-pota. Freeze it, let it thaw
> halfway, and the liquidy part half is super sweet--I think the sugar
> in it is first-to-thaw. Then you drink the sweety coconut part. The
> bad part is, the remaining chunk that hasn't thawed yet is just
> basically a chunk of faintly coconut-tainted ice, and --- you've
> already drunk the sweet stuff.

Grant,
For reasons I cannot entirely explain, the last sentence just made my day.

thanks,
-sv

[robert zeidler]

Glycogen is not a body thing. Glycogen won't move from your arms to
your legs. Once your legs are depleted, that's it. As I understand
it (I'm not a doctor nor do I play one on TV, but I did stay at a
Holiday Inn Express last night), fat as a fuel needs something to burn
it, and that is some form of carbohydrate, and it's usually one of the
really bad ones. If it was just fat, you could head out w/ just a
gallon or so of water and come back 10lbs of body fat lighter. The
discipline is to only use these bad carbs while exercising. You can
get this from many forms, but I just prefer the Gu/Clif etc., type
because when I start to get a little low in the "gas tank", a gel
followed by some water goes right where it should, quickly digested.
Same thing could be accomplished w/ Cytomax or some such. Plus time
can be a limiting factor so why would I want to stop to ingest? Add
to that the extra time for digestion and you're carrying a lot more
than you need to and waiting a lot more for it to kick in. It's not a
race thing, haven't done that in almost 20 years-too much work for too
little reward. The thing it is about, though, is not getting out there
and meeting the man with the hammer. That can be bad. Who hasn't
finished a century, limping along in 1st gear, doing all you can just
to turn over the pedals? No thanks.
Recovery is what ever works best for you, worked out by trial and error.

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[Tim McNamara]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glycogen

[Leslie]

I've been sittin' on the sidelines on this, but, I suppose I should pitch in a bit...

Twenty years ago, I was a lean 19-yr-old,  6' tall, 150lb infantry Marine.  Before then, I could eat anything, wouldn't gain a pound.  When I got out several years later, I was more like 180lbs; heavier, but strong, square-built, was fine. But, married, two kids, entered grad school, ended up sitting on my duff, sedentary. By the time ten years had passed (ten years ago), I'd gotten up to... 280lbs. I still thought of myself as a skinny kid in my head, but was anything but.  Finally, wanted to do something about, and I heard about how well low-carb worked for people, decided to try it.  

I didn't buy a book, or follow a particular menu;  I just tried to not eat carbs.  I'd started in at the beginning of March, and by the end of November, I was down to 200lbs.    I thought, awesome. 

But, there between Thanksgiving and Christmas, a switch was thrown in my head.   If I thought about not eating a roll, I found that I ate the basket of rolls.  If I thought about not eating a donut at the coffee pot, I'd eat a dozen donuts.  Want to pass on a piece of pie, I ate a pie.    It was eerie.   It was like there was some change in how I was wired.   By the end of spring, I was up to about 230.   And, there I stayed for five, six or so more years.

I'd not paid close enough attention, my weight had crept back up, to about 260.    I needed to get off my duff and try again.   I started watching carbs again, and, this time, that's when I got back on a bike, after a long hiatus.   I got down to 220, then would creep back up to 240, then back yoyo down to 230, back to 240...   last Thanksgiving, I was 220 again, but by the end of New Years', was back up further, to 260;  By March, I was down to 230;  but I've since gotten to where I fluctuate between 235 and 240. 

It's hard;  vegetables and meats are more expensive than carbs. I have a sweet tooth.   I like beer.      I do like the idea of eating nice salads and lean cuts of meat, but when the wife insists on having selections of cookies in the house, it's hard to not sneak one.  When suppertime comes and it's pasta and potatoes, it's hard to skip dinner.    The first time I lost all the weight, she was really supportive of it, but, what also didn't help my backsliding was that she realized she'd doubled our food budget, and decided to revert to more bread, potato, snacky stuff.... she was tired of not having bags of chips in the house, just to keep me from being tempted.   So, in my house, it's a struggle.    I want to get down under 200, but when my wife makes a point of saying she doesn't care if I'm over 250, then she opens up a bag of candy bars....    When I want to go for a bike-ride, but she says she wants to spend more time with me, but just wants to nap on the couch and watch TV to do so, it's hard to not be sedentary.   I want her to be more active, too, but she doesn't want to...  I want to live to a ripe old age, and she says she doesn't want to be an old woman, would be ready to kick the bucket sooner than later, especially if it meant she had to get off the couch, well..... 

It's frustrating.  


+ + + +

The other day, the local paper ran an article.   There was a ranking of metro areas and transportation conducted; at the bottom of the list, 3rd from last place for non-car infrastructure, was the Tri-Cities here.   It's fact, I can't deny it.  You can't get to work on a bus here; there's a bike trail here or there but using one to commute is hazardous.   Mobile was 1st, I don't remember what was 2nd, but, basically, if you live here, you can't function w/o a car.   I know I can't.  I didn't used to think in terms of wanting to commute by bike;  it really didn't bother me that it's a 40-min drive to the office.   When I lived in Knoxville, I was less than 10-miles from my office, and it took an hour, w/ traffic;  so for it to be 40-miles from driveway to parking lot at work, and take 40-minutes, I was thrilled it was 'that short' of a commute.   I know lots of people that drive an hour and a half to work each day.   It didn't bother me before, but, I didn't think about it before, either.  

It's risky to bike here.   I and my kids, we go biking when we can.  Yet, even my wife complains about the one fellow who rides home in the afternoons along Orebank Road.   He has as much right as she does to the road, but she thinks he should get off the road, quit holding up cars.   I can't argue w/ her, even if I think she's wrong, she's heck to live w/ if I do argue w/ her.   But when the spouses and mothers of the bikers in town think bikes should go away, it's hard to see progress made in getting more people to bike.   

Sorry for venting, but, it's been starting to gnaw at me....

[Rex Kerr]

I often stop and eat a bunch of berries on the way home from work.  I have shellac on my bars, so the tape doesn't stain, but I'm now wondering, would berry stains count as beausage. :-)

[Zack]

i think it would be the best type of beausage.

[charlie]

No disrespect here Rene' but maybe try not exercising so much......I
know riding is enjoyable I love it but try to mix it up a little and
if you are trying to lose fat, lift weights and do shorter rides. The
plain facts.... I am almost 53 and 258 down from 282 with virtually no
exercise due to weather and work. Been riding some lately but not
enough to suit me. With my work demands and other factors, I can't
ride two hours everyday without recovery time in between riding days.
Over training will just make you tired and no amount (or type) of food
will magically make you recover faster. Being young with good genetics
and in great condition is the ultimate but if we aren't in one or all
three categories we have to work smart not just hard. I think Scott C.
went from 500+ to whatever he is now riding only 10+1 miles every day
but probably sometimes more than that when he felt like it. The point
is, don't bite off more than you can chew ! I have been an over
exerciser in my life and I became frustrated that my progress slowed
and my mood altered by overdoing it chronically. I suffered a few
overuse injuries along the way that I still have to be careful of.
These days I try to pace myself and don't even look for aerobic
exercise to help me lose fat. I hope this helps in some way toward
your goals. Keep at it, I am......

[robert zeidler]

Keep the faith, brother. And oh yeah, Semper Fi!

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[robert zeidler]

Grant, next time you come to Waterbury (I'm 15 min away) let me know
and we'll go to the Ben and Jerry's factory.

On Thu, Aug 18, 2011 at 10:31 AM, grant <gran...@gmail.com> wrote:
>

[Philip Williamson]

No disrespect from me either, but citing a vegan as an example in a
"what would Taubes" eat thread is funny to me.

I've never been an over-excerciser. Every time I stop drinking beer
and ride my bike as much as I like, I drop down to about 200 lbs
(which is good). I'm at 240 now, and just started that again. Let's
see if it works now that I'm 42.

Philip

Philip Williamson
www.biketinker.com

[S.Cutshall]

Interesting thread (as was the other long'ish one on Taubes' book).
 I've read his book and was going to reply in that thread but thought
better of it... and I've watched this thread and hit Reply a number of
times only to then think, Ahh I like Jim and don't want to complicate
his life, and thought better of it too. 

So here's what I will share (and it's really a moot point anyway
because people is gonna believe -or be into- whatever it is they
desire regardless of Point/Counterpoint). 

First: what I've learned in 5 years. 

People dig convenient answers to hard questions. (I did once too, but
life doesn't always pan out that way so I had to find my own way)

People -also- very much want to have those answers framed around what
it is they already know, already enjoy. (and I would have too,
probably ...but life didn't pan out that way for me either)

Two:
There is a great (think, Grand Canyon-sized) divide between Healthy
and Fit. The Small die at a similar rate to the Big all the time. 

Three:
I know much about what it takes to lose significant weight and keep it
off, but even greater to that I know weight is a shell, that much like
a suit when either in or out of it, reveals true numbers of Self, and
Hard Work invested into Self. 
And those numbers do not lie. And I am not speaking of numbers lost
with regard to pounds, as significant as they are or can be in any
person's particular case... no, I am speaking to the numbers of Labs
(blood work, etc). But far better though those, these kinds of
numbers: good days (with hugs, smiles, the chance to move freely one's
body under its own inertia) added onto a life that was unthinkably
horrid, sad, lonely and professionally foretold as supposed to be
Pushing Up Daisies a little over 5 years back. 
The books never reveal those kinds of numbers. 

Four:
Me? I carry water and occasionally a banana (but that's only if my
ride is above 30 miles or more)... and it's in a Carradice
bag. Sorry. 

PS--> See Jim, I behaved. 

-Scott

[charlie]

Loved your story in the Riv Reader Scott......I use the now out of
production banana bag but also a Carradice for colder weather. I find
myself doing something similar when commuting, I just fill my water
bottles and don't take anything but my lunch to work (a modest piece
of some kind of protein and a big salad) Usually one piece of fruit on
the way home but since my diet change often not even that. I just
don't get hungry as much now and can usually ride around 2 hours
without doing anything different food wise whereas previously I would
just eat back all the calories I had just burned while riding.

[charlie]

Yea Philip, I know the example wasn't the best and it is funny now
that I think about it but Scott impresses me with his resolve and the
thing at least for me is, I believe Scott eats a ton of veggies (I
rarely did before now) and in spite of the focus on meat and fat in
the Paleo/ Atkins blah, blah etc. way, the common factor is (or should
be) vegetables in large quantities which many people do not eat enough
of when they follow the above 'diets'. I believe veggies, fruits, nuts
and berries were the original food (but that's a philosophical side
issue) but I've always felt the best after a modest piece of protein
and a huge salad coupled with an additional vegetable.
Desserts when we have them are berries these days or some sort of
fruit like apple slices or whatever. Like Grant, we make our own
treats but I admit to the occasional micro serving of ice cream and
like Scott, I loves my coffee and Phillip (Scott too) what can I say
about beer 'the nectar of the gods' and wine....I love it too but
don't consume as much of either these days. Bicycling..... I love to
ride and would do it just for the fun of it if there were no benefit.
It keeps me moving which is a biggie for me now that I'm nearing 53
and Philip...... it doesn't work as easily the older you get but YMMV.
This general topic (exercise/diet/health) is interesting and pertinent
to my life, glad it was posted !

On Aug 19, 9:53 am, Philip Williamson <philip.william...@gmail.com>
wrote:

[Philip Williamson]

Thanks, Charles. It seems that people take Taubes in a few different
ways, and I haven't heard a lot of vegetable promotion from most of my
Taubsian friends. From reading "Good Calories, Bad Calories," I didn't
get a Michael Pollan vibe at all.

I eat mostly vegetarian, mostly locally, mostly seasonally, mostly
made from scratch. I drink a lot of beer. I'm fat. I'm healthy. If my
extra fat storage is beer, it fits both the "calories in / calories
out" model and the "carbs = fat" model. The people I know who are in
the best shape eat organic vegetables, some meat, some carbs. No GMOs,
no fast food, no pre-packaged food. They exercise.

I am not going to count carbs or calories, so it's easier for me to
have simple rules like "don't eat crap food," or "eat less bread," or
"don't have seconds."

After reading this thread, I'd pack a banana or nuts and berries or on
longer bike rides. Today I'll stop and pick blackberries by the side
of the road.
Philip

Philip Williamson
www.philipwilliamson.com

[reynoldslugs]

I started this thread a while ago, read all the replies, and figured -
just eat fruit and see what happens.

Did 55 mi yesterday, with about 6000' of climbing grinding it out
Clydesdale style). (for those of you that know Sonoma County, rode Ft
Ross Road out to the coast, down to Bodega Bay, then back over Coleman
Valley Road into Occidental and Monte Rio).

Drank water, ate bananas and dates, and felt great.

All the fruit (and wool jacket) rode in the Brand V Handlebar Bag
(just to ensure Rivendell content)

Came home with with a Paleolithic-Bobish/RBWish halo tilted rakishly
over my bald patch.

Ok, ok, I had a slice of lasagna for dinner. So sue me. Today, back
on protein powder and blueberries, and I feel great! I feel a lot less
"blown" than I usually do the day after a hard ride.

thanks everyone for an interesting discussion.


RL

[charlie]

Yea Philip, I take the Taubes idea kinda loosely we aren't really
following his stuff exclusively and have read the Paelo stuff the New
Atkins and have been involved in the organic co-op hippie food kinda
thing for years. My wife also cooks from scratch, we grow our own, had
chickens in the past and plan to again. Fruit trees are going in this
fall and I have many friends who fish and hunt plus quite a few locals
who raise livestock the healthy way. I don't count my carbs I just
know what not to eat 98% of the time. I just spent the last two hours
climbing hills in 85 degree weather and drank a sorghum an rice beer
so.......whatever. The people I know that are in the best shape are
young, have favorable genetics and probably eat whatever they want. I
know I did but as I got older I have learned that I can't do that
anymore. I do see some naturally lean people who are older and plenty
that are obese but I'm not sure which are 'healthy' internally. My own
grandfather lived to be 100 years old, had a pot belly, never
exercised beyond walking and yard work, ate modestly, did not smoke,
drank occasionally but never to excess, slept 8 hours a night and had
a pleasant disposition. I think the easier we gain weight and store
fat the more strict we have to be with diet if we want to be lean
which is precisely why some think all this talk is foolishness and
often have their own simple method to control their fat gains. Some
can eat like pigs never gain a pound and probably exercise less than
the 275 pound retired football player who now finds himself getting
fat. It all comes down to genetics in my opinion. I know I am an easy
weight gainer so I'm finding what works for me which probably isn't as
strict as some might have to be but more strict than
others.................hmmmm : v )~

On Aug 21, 11:08 am, Philip Williamson <philip.william...@gmail.com>
wrote:

[Patrick in VT]

On Aug 21, 2:08 pm, Philip Williamson <philip.william...@gmail.com>
wrote:

The people I know who are in
> the best shape eat organic vegetables, some meat, some carbs. No GMOs,
> no fast food, no pre-packaged food. They exercise.

That sounds about right. The only thing I'd add is that "they cook."

IMO, cooking is essential for anyone re-evaluating their relationship
with food, health, diet, etc.

[CycloFiend]

Bingo.

And some folks don't "exercise" per se, but they garden, walk errands, take
stairs, hike with their dogs or some such thing. It's so damned easy to sit
and be taken places, then make "exercise" some special thing on the list of
TO-DO's.

Play is important.

- J

--
Jim Edgar
Cyclo...@earthlink.net

Cyclofiend Bicycle Photo Galleries - http://www.cyclofiend.com
Current Classics - Cross Bikes
Singlespeed - Working Bikes

Gallery updates now appear here - http://cyclofiend.blogspot.com

"I thought the idea was to waste the rest of our lives together.."
-- Cyril, "Breaking Away"

[Tim McNamara]

On Aug 22, 2011, at 12:47 PM, CycloFiend wrote:

> on 8/22/11 8:13 AM, Patrick in VT at swin...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Aug 21, 2:08 pm, Philip Williamson <philip.william...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> The people I know who are in
>>> the best shape eat organic vegetables, some meat, some carbs. No GMOs,
>>> no fast food, no pre-packaged food. They exercise.
>>
>> That sounds about right. The only thing I'd add is that "they cook."
>>
>> IMO, cooking is essential for anyone re-evaluating their relationship
>> with food, health, diet, etc.
>
> Bingo.
>
> And some folks don't "exercise" per se, but they garden, walk errands, take
> stairs, hike with their dogs or some such thing. It's so damned easy to sit
> and be taken places, then make "exercise" some special thing on the list of
> TO-DO's.
>
> Play is important.

Bill Nye (“the Science Guy”): “Bicycling has to be a big part of the future. There’s something wrong with a society that drives a car to work out in a gym.”

[robert zeidler]

I've never been one to go on about how great whatever the Euros do is,
but.... While visiting Spain in the Spring i was impressed how people
would atke a stroll in the evening, as a family, and even more so on
Sunday. Oddly enough, I ate ice cream, some times thrice daily, but
at least every day, and came home 10 days later having lost 7 pounds.
So exercise as a simple habit really does matter.

RGZ