That Diet and Exercise thing again!

[Michael Hechmer]

This may be stretching the boundaries of the list mission, but we have entertained a long discussion around Why We Get Fat, and if memory serves me right, GP published an article in the Reader, which challenged the wisdom of extreme forms of exercise, like the Iron Man competition.  So...

I recently stumbled across a web site, http://www.marksdailyapple.com/#axzz28QX0hvFJ  while looking for some health info.  The author has a whole thing going under the rubric of the Primal Blueprint.  While his starting point seemed debatable the conclusions he comes to both about diet and exercise sound practical and congruent with the diet and exercise recommendations from Rivendell.  And they build on them.  They seem pretty practical, especially around exercise, to someone (moi) who is 68 years old, allergic to "training," but still hoping to maintain an active life for as long as possible.

Have others on this list looked into this program more deeply, or tried it out.  What did you find, and what do you think?

Michael

[Lyle Bogart]

I learned about Mark Sisson through Grant's writings. After looking into it, it appeared to be a refinement of what I do nutritionally anyway (I don't forego carbs to the extent that Sisson does--can't give up baking my own bread!). I find that the closer I adhere to Sisson's points, the more even my energy feels throughout the day, the week, or just the ride. I also do intermittent fasting, but not as a formal part of a plan--there're just those days when I feel like not eating and so I indulge that.

Overall, through the years of being very active (former climbing and backcountry skiing guide, long-distance running & cycling, etc.) I find that fats are absolutely essential to my energy level and my ability to be as active as I am. . . 

My wife recently began adhering closely to Sisson's approach--she has many food allergies and gluten intolerance--and noted very good results.

Cheers!

lyle

-- 
lyle f bogart dpt

156 bradford rd

wiscasset, me 04578

207.882.6494

206.794.6937

Michael

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lyle f bogart dpt

156 bradford rd

wiscasset, me 04578

207.882.6494

206.794.6937

[PATRICK MOORE]

I can't cite evidence except long-term and widespread custom, but while it may well be true that effective insulin regulation is the -- or *a* -- key to good metabolism, I can't help but think that 10,000 years of agriculture -- ie, grains -- can't help but be natural to the human body (dig the double whatchamacallit negative). 10K years is pretty primal. And more, the Hopi, Chinese, Japanese and Indians didn't start getting fat and diabetic until they began to wean themselves from the rice, maize or wheat that formerly made up most of their diet. OTOH, I've seen no evidence that the traditional Inuit or the Masai suffered from obesity, diabetes, heart trouble or lack of energy because they ate mostly proteins and fats. 

Sure, traditional people also exercised more than modern couch potatoes, but then the Primal argument says that exercise won't keep it off if you eat carbs.

The Italians and French are not noted for statistical excesses of obesity and diabetes and heart disease.

Me, I eat my grandmother's primal diet that includes six packs, good bread, pasta as well as vegetables, dairy, wine, and red meat. And I'm 200% fit! As with cycling rules, I prefer to remain a skeptic for one-size-fits-all, while being wholly willing to accept that Primal may work for some people. Well, my one-size-fits-all rule is that modern processing is probably bad.

Michael

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-------------------------
Patrick Moore, Albuquerque, NM, USA
For professional resumes, contact Patrick Moore, ACRW
http://resumespecialties.com/index.html
-------------------------

[Marc Schwartz]

Beer, bread, pasta, and sweeties make Marc look like Jabba the Hut. That's just me, not bein' pedantic here.
Marc
________________________________________
From: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com [rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com] on behalf of PATRICK MOORE [bert...@gmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2012 3:08 PM
To: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [RBW] That Diet and Exercise thing again!

I can't cite evidence except long-term and widespread custom, but while it may well be true that effective insulin regulation is the -- or *a* -- key to good metabolism, I can't help but think that 10,000 years of agriculture -- ie, grains -- can't help but be natural to the human body (dig the double whatchamacallit negative). 10K years is pretty primal. And more, the Hopi, Chinese, Japanese and Indians didn't start getting fat and diabetic until they began to wean themselves from the rice, maize or wheat that formerly made up most of their diet. OTOH, I've seen no evidence that the traditional Inuit or the Masai suffered from obesity, diabetes, heart trouble or lack of energy because they ate mostly proteins and fats.

Sure, traditional people also exercised more than modern couch potatoes, but then the Primal argument says that exercise won't keep it off if you eat carbs.

The Italians and French are not noted for statistical excesses of obesity and diabetes and heart disease.

Me, I eat my grandmother's primal diet that includes six packs, good bread, pasta as well as vegetables, dairy, wine, and red meat. And I'm 200% fit! As with cycling rules, I prefer to remain a skeptic for one-size-fits-all, while being wholly willing to accept that Primal may work for some people. Well, my one-size-fits-all rule is that modern processing is probably bad.

On Sat, Oct 6, 2012 at 2:06 PM, Michael Hechmer <mhec...@gmail.com<mailto:mhec...@gmail.com>> wrote:
This may be stretching the boundaries of the list mission, but we have entertained a long discussion around Why We Get Fat, and if memory serves me right, GP published an article in the Reader, which challenged the wisdom of extreme forms of exercise, like the Iron Man competition. So...

I recently stumbled across a web site, http://www.marksdailyapple.com/#axzz28QX0hvFJ while looking for some health info. The author has a whole thing going under the rubric of the Primal Blueprint. While his starting point seemed debatable the conclusions he comes to both about diet and exercise sound practical and congruent with the diet and exercise recommendations from Rivendell. And they build on them. They seem pretty practical, especially around exercise, to someone (moi) who is 68 years old, allergic to "training," but still hoping to maintain an active life for as long as possible.

Have others on this list looked into this program more deeply, or tried it out. What did you find, and what do you think?

Michael

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"Believe nothing until it has been officially denied."
-- Claude Cockburn

-------------------------
Patrick Moore, Albuquerque, NM, USA
For professional resumes, contact Patrick Moore, ACRW
http://resumespecialties.com/index.html
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[PATRICK MOORE]

It must be like pedaling in circles -- people are very different.

[charlie]

One may look good on the outside and still have a heart attack at 57 due to a lifetime of poor diet choices. Its not just about being lean although losing body fat is part of the reason I am eating a low carb Primal/Paleo way.....eating  primarily meat,eggs, leafy greens and other actual vegetables (no, corn is not a vegetable) berries, nuts and some fruit has allowed me to lose 30 pounds with a very low level of exercise compared to most people. I know my blood sugar is more stable when I eat this way and I feel better doing so. When I was younger.....(20's to 30's) I had no trouble keeping my weight down and I was a full 70 pounds lighter at 30 years of age than I am at 54. The fat came from eating excessive carbohydrates like pasta, cookies, beer, pizza, baked goods, ice cream etc. etc. plus stress and lack of sleep and a reduction in exercise until about age 42 when I tried riding my fat off without a diet change and never lost a pound until I tried the Atkins approach but soon stopped that on poor advice from supposed professionals.....ten years later, I tried it again eating exactly the same as I did earlier and lost fat effortlessly.....I might add that we eat plenty of veggies too (not just meat) as some might think. I do believe some are genetically predisposed to being lean no matter what they eat but that doesn't mean their diet choices are healthy or that they will always be lean. Often as those natural lean folks age they develop a pot belly and their arteries clog just like the big fat guys does.....heck statistically its more likely the natural skinny guy is the one that has the heart attack and the fat guy lives to be 85. What am I trying to say? Its not just what you see on the outside and it may be a false confidence if someone is young and "in shape" to believe that they are living healthy and will always be in shape. Here a photo of me at about 29 to prove my point. https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=2407446671790&set=a.2545020671054.2143016.1419870581&type=3&theater

On Saturday, October 6, 2012 3:57:04 PM UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote:

It must be like pedaling in circles -- people are very different.

On Sat, Oct 6, 2012 at 4:42 PM, Marc Schwartz <msch...@nmsu.edu> wrote:

Beer, bread, pasta, and sweeties make Marc look like Jabba the Hut. That's just me, not bein' pedantic here.
Marc
________________________________________
From: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com [rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com] on behalf of PATRICK MOORE [bert...@gmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2012 3:08 PM
To: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [RBW] That Diet and Exercise thing again!

I can't cite evidence except long-term and widespread custom, but while it may well be true that effective insulin regulation is the -- or *a* -- key to good metabolism, I can't help but think that 10,000 years of agriculture -- ie, grains -- can't help but be natural to the human body (dig the double whatchamacallit negative). 10K years is pretty primal. And more, the Hopi, Chinese, Japanese and Indians didn't start getting fat and diabetic until they began to wean themselves from the rice, maize or wheat that formerly made up most of their diet. OTOH, I've seen no evidence that the traditional Inuit or the Masai suffered from obesity, diabetes, heart trouble or lack of energy because they ate mostly proteins and fats.

Sure, traditional people also exercised more than modern couch potatoes, but then the Primal argument says that exercise won't keep it off if you eat carbs.

The Italians and French are not noted for statistical excesses of obesity and diabetes and heart disease.

Me, I eat my grandmother's primal diet that includes six packs, good bread, pasta as well as vegetables, dairy, wine, and red meat. And I'm 200% fit! As with cycling rules, I prefer to remain a skeptic for one-size-fits-all, while being wholly willing to accept that Primal may work for some people. Well, my one-size-fits-all rule is that modern processing is probably bad.

On Sat, Oct 6, 2012 at 2:06 PM, Michael Hechmer <mhec...@gmail.com<mailto:mhech...@gmail.com>> wrote:
This may be stretching the boundaries of the list mission, but we have entertained a long discussion around Why We Get Fat, and if memory serves me right, GP published an article in the Reader, which challenged the wisdom of extreme forms of exercise, like the Iron Man competition.  So...

I recently stumbled across a web site, http://www.marksdailyapple.com/#axzz28QX0hvFJ  while looking for some health info.  The author has a whole thing going under the rubric of the Primal Blueprint.  While his starting point seemed debatable the conclusions he comes to both about diet and exercise sound practical and congruent with the diet and exercise recommendations from Rivendell.  And they build on them.  They seem pretty practical, especially around exercise, to someone (moi) who is 68 years old, allergic to "training," but still hoping to maintain an active life for as long as possible.

Have others on this list looked into this program more deeply, or tried it out.  What did you find, and what do you think?

Michael

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[Lyle Bogart]

"One may look good on the outside and still have a heart attack at 57 due to a lifetime of poor diet choices" and "more likely the natural skinny guy is the one that has the heart attack and the fat guy lives to be 85. What am I trying to say? Its not just what you see on the outside and it may be a false confidence if someone is young and "in shape" to believe that they are living healthy and will always be in shape"

+1 Charlie! Many of the patients I treat fall into this "skinny-fat" category and they always seem amazed to learn there's more to being healthy than having low bodyweight. 

Cheers!

lyle

-- 
lyle f bogart dpt

156 bradford rd

wiscasset, me 04578

207.882.6494

206.794.6937

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/55JpbweYvw4J.

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[charlie]

Thanks Lyle........only wish I had known some of what I know now, back then.

[Tim McNamara]

Too much of anything is bad for you. Too many carbs, too much fat, too much protein, too much water, too much alcohol, too much exercise, too much laziness, too much stress, etc. Humans are omnivorous in many ways and can thrive in an amazing variety of situations.

Moderation in all things, including moderation.

[charlie]

Kind of agree and kind of don't.......(for some) trying to lose fat, moderation amounts to no progress. For those people it takes absolute vigilance and resolve without any wavering to lose fat and maintain their effort. Compromise just doesn't end well ultimately. Maybe for the average person that idea is okay......I'll give ya that. For someone on the edge of diabetes, compromise will put them over the edge into the abyss of insulin injections and a decline in the quality of life.

[grant]

What seems to work and make sense --- is that certain ethnicities have naturally more insulin-sensitivity (this can be overly simplified to "resistance to getting fat and diabetes") than others. Africans and Native Americans, for instance, have a short history of carby eating (as little as 150 years  in some cases), and that probably explains why they gain weight and become diabetic sooner than Iranians. Insulin sensitivity is also developed in the womb. If mom's insulin resistant, baby tends to be, too. As you age and eat a diet that requires a constant stream of insulin from your pancrease, WHATEVER insulin resistance you had at the beginning of life will decrease. What that insulin resistance IS for anybody is largely unknown without testing. The tests are available and cheap, but people don't do them (for the most part) until they're confirmed diabetics who have to do them or suffer. To test your glucose without being diabetic is to be regarded as a nut-job.
Meanwhile we have naturally insulin-resistant people, skinny and all while following (for instance) a vegan diet and using their own success with that as proof that it works for others---without considering the wide range of insulin sensitivities in others.
The comment about moderation working for some but not for others seems to be right on the money.
You can't accumulate fat in the absence of insulin (Type 1 diabetics, who produce none of it, tend to be skinny, and only aren't skinny when they eat lots of carbs and have to inject lots of insulin to cover them). insulin literally prevents you from burning body fat as fuel. You cannot burn off your buttocks riding tons of miles if you eat carbs to fuel your riding, which is why there are so many relatively heavy megamilers.
OF COURSE, one must do what works for one, but the reality seems to be that over time your insulin sensitivity decreases (you become more insulin-resistant, more closer-to-diabetic), and if your carb intake doesn't decrease commensurately, you will get fatter as you age. This may be good news or bad news, but these ideas here are not chock full of nonsense.

[Tim McNamara]

The point of moderation is to prevent problems.  Once you've already got problems, it may be a different story. However, extremity in seeking weight loss may not be a good plan either.  I have known people who developed health problems as a result of the Adkins plan, the "primal" type stuff, etc.  I've also known people helped by it.  These are decisions to be made with the advice of a doctor, not an Internet mailing list or a blog or some other web site.

My Dad was an insulin dependent diabetic from the age of 6, which he developed as a consequence of having had polio in 1935.  He took two to three shots of insulin a day for the rest of his life, which was about 25 years longer than he had been told to expect (he lived to be 67).  It's a disease best prevented.  Even though he was compliant with diet and treatment, it still took a toll on his health (coronary artery disease, peripheral vascular disease, peripheral neuropathy but oddly no problems with kidneys or eyes).  He had a great endocrinologist... It's so much better not to need a great endocrinologist.  As a result I pay a lot of attention since I may have an increased risk, although no doctor can tell me for sure since diabetes does not run strongly in the family on either side.  

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[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

I have lots to say about this. I'll try to be concise.

"Extreme" is a loaded term, and may in fact be meaningless. For the duration of the television age, at least, we've been advised by the slickest marketers on earth to avoid the fat and cholesterol of eggs in favor of the "whole grain goodness" of the latest manufactured breakfast cereal (usually vaguely referencing some unspecified scientific authority). Is avoiding manufactured breakfast cereal and returning to eggs an extreme thing to do? A lot of people, including perhaps many doctors, seem to think so. This attests to the power of marketing.

My first "paleo" experience was following the lead of a friend who'd had success with a very simple "no sugar, no grains" diet. I immediately dropped the 20-30 pounds that had resisted all my previous efforts at "moderation". I looked better and felt better. I ate like I did before - meat, eggs, vegetables, fruit, nuts - but no bread and no sweets. Lots of people thought my diet was extreme. "You don't eat bread? That's extreme!" For some reason, their minds fixated on the idea that I was eating nothing but bacon fat, even though I was likely eating more fresh vegetables and fiber and basic nutrients than they ever did.

Several of the regulars on my Saturday morning breakfast ride have had coronary blockages that resulted in bypasses and stents. They tell me "my doctor says I can't have eggs/butter/bacon" as they order the tall stack of pancakes and drown it with syrup. If that is indeed the soundest advice of a medical professional regarding nutrition, I feel that my distrust of doctors as nutritionists may be justified.

I quit drinking almost 10 years ago. I regard alcoholism and sugar/carb addiction as two sides of the same token. After I quit drinking, and even to this day, people who I recognize as alcoholics tell me: you just need to learn to drink in moderation. To me a sip of booze is much the same as a bite of chocolate cake. Moderation quickly goes out the window. I understand this has to do with spiking blood sugar and the insulin response, or inherited addictive tendencies, or insufficient will power, or Satan, or whatever, but in practice, I know it's a lot easier if I just abstain. Interestingly, the "paleo" diet thing gets a lot of the same response as I received when I quit drinking. A lot of people are seriously offended by it, trying to pull me back in by preaching "moderation" as a better solution. Addicts feel threatened when one of their own turns over a new leaf.

As I travel my daily rounds through the seediest parts of the city, I see a level of obesity out there that makes the obese people I knew 25-30 years ago look slender by comparison. These people have the genetics that don't allow them to process the foods they eat without putting on belly fat. I know because my genetics are similar, and I'd be 400 pounds if I didn't have some clue how to eat. Mix these fat-prone genetics with poor finances, and no education/literacy or empowerment about nutrition or how to cook, and the result is a person who is addicted to highly processed, sugary substances. In many cases, these people have a zero fat, zero cholesterol diet, yet they are enormous and unhealthy. Obviously this is an odd example of a "low fat, low cholesterol" diet, but I think it's an example worth considering as we evaluate various pillars of conventional wisdom.

[charlie]

Well stated Jim and Grant, its where I was coming from more or less.....I hear the moderation suggestion all the time and like you Jim it just doesn't work for me. I also believe some try to sabotage my efforts subconsciously by offering up the moderation idea and frankly its a little annoying and keeps me from certain social situations which is also frustrating on the other hand. Its odd that when you buck the norm how much you notice what you are trying to avoid and how many people just don't get it. Probably why Scott C. has simplified his diet  and remains steadfast in his schedule......its just easier that way and something I'm trying to integrate into my life. Social situations and work make it more of a challenge however.

[PATRICK MOORE]

This is veering off into lala land. I think that we might agree on the following:

1. Moderation! In our opinions. 

2. It seems to be clear that Primal works for some people, at least for some things -- maybe for all things, that is, maybe there are no down sides to the benefits for these people, I don't know, I'm no scientists or doctor. But too many whom we have no reason to believe a priori are complete idiots claim that it does work for them.

3. Primal is not the only reasonable diet nor a universal prescription. There are millions out there who do just fine -- that means, not only remaining more or less normal weight, but in normal health -- on carb-based diets, including traditional Native Americans and my Filipina mother. (She has controlled type 2 diabetes for decades eating controlled amounts of white rice, bread, pasta, gawdawful styrofoam chicken breasts, and no fat or sugar or potatoes.)

4. For centuries if not millenia people over the world have thrived on very different diets without succumbing to obesity or diabetes or heart disease or nervous tics or herpes. Frozen whale blubber! Oatmeal! Posho! Chapattis! Locusts and beetle larvae! Milk-and-blood, yum!

5. Let's leave evolution and cave men out of it. To explain Primal or anything else by supposing we know what our distant ancestors did is to attempt to explain the still-not-completely-known by the entirely conjectural.

I personally "feel" -- that's as scientific as it gets -- that eating huge amounts of refined sugar, Cheetos, Little Debbie Cakes, deep fried Mars Bars, or synthesized "pork rinds" -- note: real pork rind is wonderful! -- can't be healthy. For what *that's* worth.

Can we please get back to helmets?

[Steve Palincsar]

On Mon, 2012-10-08 at 07:59 -0600, PATRICK MOORE wrote:
>
> 5. Let's leave evolution and cave men out of it. To explain Primal or
> anything else by supposing we know what our distant ancestors did is
> to attempt to explain the still-not-completely-known by the entirely
> conjectural.

Bravo! Very well put, even for you (and you are known for well-turned
phrases).

>
> I personally "feel" -- that's as scientific as it gets -- that eating
> huge amounts of refined sugar, Cheetos, Little Debbie Cakes, deep
> fried Mars Bars, or synthesized "pork rinds" -- note: real pork rind
> is wonderful! -- can't be healthy. For what *that's* worth.

What is a "synthesized 'pork rind'"? And why would anyone want to
synthesize it? It's not like there's any kind of pork rind shortage,
only perhaps a shortage of people willing to admit they actually like
the stuff...

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

I think it was Taubes who said something to the effect of: if you're fat, it's because of carbs. People who aren't fat are excluded by the first half of the sentence, so all those rice-eating thin Chinese people need not apply. I've never seen a fat person on the city bus snacking on bacon and eggs. It's always pop or candy, and as Grant mentioned, there is a correlation with ethnicity.

Perhaps some overweight/obese person who doesn't eat grains, sugars, and/or starchy veggies, will step forward, but in my experience and observation, those people don't exist.

[PATRICK MOORE]

There was plenty of protein and fat in this diet:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Size_Me

Along with huge amounts of starch, of course. It would be interesting to discover (1) the breakdown of starch/fat/protein/what else? and (2) discover what made him gain 24 lb, starch only or fat too?

I've read that skinny Chinese people become fat Chinese people after starting up on a western diet, but have no details.

On Mon, Oct 8, 2012 at 8:19 AM, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery <thil...@gmail.com> wrote:

I think it was Taubes who said something to the effect of: if you're fat, it's because of carbs. People who aren't fat are excluded by the first half of the sentence, so all those rice-eating thin Chinese people need not apply. I've never seen a fat person on the city bus snacking on bacon and eggs. It's always pop or candy, and as Grant mentioned, there is a correlation with ethnicity.

Perhaps some overweight/obese person who doesn't eat grains, sugars, and/or starchy veggies, will step forward, but in my experience and observation, those people don't exist.

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[PATRICK MOORE]

Forgot to include demographics close to home: Fat Hopi, Zuni, Navajo etc. exquisitely inclined to diabetes after they left their traditional squash/corn/ beans/game/mutton diets for refined carbs 'n' lard. (I've seen families at the checkout counter with the standard 20 lb cloth bags of bleached white flour + 5 gallon plastic pails of lard.)

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

The Supersize Me guy was remarkable for not only eating fast food for every meal, but for eating an extraordinary quantity of it. It seems that he likely consumed at least 500 cal of pure sugar or HFCS for every single meal. This is in addition to the non-sugar carbs, protein, and fat.

My Chinese buddy in grad school put some weight on during his first year in the US. I hear McDonald's is an extravagance in China, reserved for special occasions. Here, he was able to enjoy such opulence on a daily basis. Also, he drank a lot of Coke.

[Leslie]

Once upon a time, 20 years ago, I was a skinny 6', 145lb Marine... But after learning how to eat everything I could get my hands on, then getting out of constant activity and sitting on my duff for years of grad school, I found myself 10 years ago tipping the scales at 280lbs... I went on a carb-free diet for a year (no breads, no potatoes, no sugars, best I could manage), and finally got down to 200lbs.

But something clicked in my head; er, rather, internally, something snapped, regardless of my head thinking otherwise... if I thought about not eating a roll, I ate the pan of rolls; if I thought about not eating a slice of pie, I ate the pie. It was really weird, I just couldn't not eat carbs at all. So, I gave up, went back to 'normal', and the weight crept back on.

Wanting to do something about it again, is when I got back into riding a few years ago; but as Grant's pointed out, riding alone won't drop pounds. This past spring, seeing the scale back up at 260, I finally started watching the carbs again. Took all summer, to get down to 235 now; that much weight actually dropped fast early on, but then I got stuck, and have been... For the past two months, I'm stuck at 235, 236, 237, and no more has come off... I really want to get down to 200 (further, eventually, but 200 is my initial goal); so, since my diet alone, nor w/ biking is helping, I'm thinking about mixing a bit of running in, to help get the loss moving. Aside from 'health', a large part of wanting to get my weight down, is to help my hill-climbing on my bikes....

Patrick ( and Jim),
Tying your two thoughts together on alcohol: when I had the opportunity to spend a week in Albuquerque this past summer, I was shocked at the quantity of cheap liquor available even in WalMart there.... And noting the sizes of those purchasers buying in quantity, none were petite... I do like an occasional beer myself, but singularly, not in quantity, and I now keep them further between... Instead of a weekly beer, anymore it's closer to a monthly beer, just avoiding carbs (many of my geologist colleagues are hard drinkers, but only a few would I classify as alcoholics (but there are some); I enjoy a drink or two, but despise getting drunk, one and done is great for me; but I completely understand, not even getting started if that's what someone needs to do...).

[franklyn]

There is a whole community of people who were inspired by Bill Clinton's weight loss based on a lifestyle and diet changes expressed in the documentary "forks over knives" and benefited from a switch to a HEALTHY plant-based diet. I stress the word HEALTHY because based on my own experience of being a vegetarian and vegan most of my life, one can have a very bad plant-based diet. I don't claim that being on any vegan diet makes one thin, as I myself balloon from 170lbs in late college to my heaviest of 210 lbs just 2 years ago, all the while being a vegetarian or vegan. I did lose about 20-25 lbs in the last two years, based on a CORRECTIVE diet of not eating any starch for weeks. The model I employed, which correlated with my success, was that I moved up to a set point in terms of weight and digestive metabolism, and needed to use a "cleanse" to reset those points. I also began rock climbing and lifting weight in addition to cycling to build more muscles. During the weeks of my corrective diet I stayed a vegan and ate tons of leafy vegetables, legumes (beans, lentils, tofu, etc.), nuts, and fruits that are low on the glycemic index. After the corrective period, I have gone to eating whole grains, and pretty much kept all the weight off.

What I find salient in most of the posts here is that people ween off refined food, and eat more whole foods. I like how Jim described how his diet probably has a lot more leafy vegetables than what most americans consume. I have moved on from refined sugar, refined grains, and processed food (not craving for them) since the corrective diet, and now still enjoy eating brown rice, quinoa, and soba (buckwheat) noodles in fairly healthy quantities. Although being healthy is not only about weight loss, but that's for another day.

Franklyn

[Eric Chatham]

Leslie,

I am right there with you.  I went into the Army a skinny 6"2" 175 pounds.  I retired about 16 years ago, still was a reasonable 212-215.  I've been as high as 260, started riding again in earnest about six or seven years ago, but can't seem to get below 225, and I'm currently 235, due to some injuries and haven't exercised in a few of weeks.  I read and tried to follow the Primal Blueprint book over the summer, but I don't do well on low carb and had zero energy to ride.  Fall-like weather has hit Atlanta, GA and I am itching to crank the riding back up again.  I managed about 1500 miles this year up until about June.

One of my work buddies swears all you have to do is eat "clean" and practice portion control.  Some of my motorcycle buddies read a book called "Wheat Belly" and several of them are trying to eat gluten free, with varying degrees of success.  I am interested in what is working for other folks, off list, if necessary.

Back to the Atlanta, GA mention...are there any metro area riders  with a Bombadil, Hunqapillar, or Atlantis I could check in the flesh, err, steel?  I am thinking of selling my Waterford RS-22 and getting with the wide(r) tires and upright bars crew.

best fishes (a la Steve Martin),

Eric Chatham

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[charlie]

Forget the running unless you are doing short intense interval sprints......better to lift weights if you want to lose fat. Perhaps a read of Grants latest book will school you all on the subject. It really is a good book and he touches in a basic way the principles for losing fat and proper exercise to help that along and finally its not just about losing fat but rather controlling ones blood sugar levels that is the important part of eating low carb i.e. animal protein, eggs, saturated fats i.e. coconut oil, fish oil, animal fat (olive oil eaten cold) large amounts of leafy greens, some nuts & berries and limited fruit.  And Jim.....thanks, you related it well..... "if you aren't fat it doesn't apply to you".......so only fat people or those battling fat loss, diabetes, or any other inflammatory condition may comment from now on.....If you are a leaned out super stud with no health problems due to your diet you may rest on the knowledge that you are invincible.... ; )

On Monday, October 8, 2012 8:34:54 AM UTC-7, Leslie wrote:

[PATRICK MOORE]

Someone said: "Patrick ( and Jim),

Tying your two thoughts together on alcohol: when I had the opportunity to spend a week in Albuquerque this past summer, I was shocked at the quantity of cheap liquor available even in WalMart there.... And noting the sizes of those purchasers buying in quantity, none were petite.."

How does wine (or spirits) fit into the low carb regimen? I can't see that it's good to forgo wine! Even cheap wine! Beer and spirits, yes, but wine is from heaven and must not be neglected.

Wine prices -- those on that very fine line between inexpensive but drinkable and inexpensive but why bother --  are cheaper than beer, here, unless you drink Bud or similar swill.

WalMart: yes, the demographic here in ABQ is 20 lb heavier and 3" shorter than the national average. Is it like that elsewhere? Personally, I have to be dragged screaming into WM, so I haven't a lot of experience with it.

 

[James Warren]

May I steal this phrase, and use it in my own conversations? It is brilliant!

[PATRICK MOORE]

I was just now reading an essay about the life, works and influence of
Woodie Guthrie (here if you want it:
http://chronicle.com/article/Woody-Guthrie-at-100/134838/)

"In a 1999 essay, Seeger recalled that his friend's view of copyright
was not exactly exclusive, and ran something like this: "Anyone caught
singing one of these songs ... will be a good friend of mine, because
that's why I wrote 'em."

(I do not claim equal stature to WG.)

(Here is an even more interesting essay about even more important people:

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2012/oct/25/tragedy-dietrich-bonhoeffer-and-hans-von-dohnanyi/?pagination=false)

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[Michael Hechmer]

Thanks Charlie.  I haven't read Grant's book, perhaps because after so many years with the Reader I felt I didn't need to.  Maybe I was wrong about that.

I hadn't intended to reignite a debate about diet.  I understand that some people seem to do pretty well on a fairly high grain/ hi carb diet.  In fact all the members of my family do.  I do not, which creates a problem & a conflict.  I believe I am in the real majority, even if it doesn't feel like it at family gatherings!

Actually I was more intrigued by Sisson's specific exercise recommendations and how they translate for people on this list.  He suggests:

1.  Doing lots of low intensity activity

2.  Doing hi cardio for only 10-30 minutes a week.  He refers to this as sprinting.

3.  Lift heavy things, mostly your own body, for only 10-20 minutes twice a week. 

4.  Get lots of sunshine and sleep.

These make a lot of sense to me, although when I was younger ( and apparently had a higher testosterone level) I felt the desire to go harder or longer more often.  I haven't found anything in his writing on stretching, which I think is essential.  As I age I feel more and more need for a regular yoga routine to keep my body functioning.

These suggestions do seem to dovetail with GPs but I suspect many of us don't practice them consistently. Personally, except when I'm on the tandem, I have a hard time cycling at a moderate pace, or perhaps I should say moderate level of exertion and I find most club rides now require higher levels of output for 3-4 hours than these guidelines would support.  I for one have never been able to sustain any weight training program - way too boring - but  a 20 minute routine sounds more sustainable than an hour on weight machines at the gym.

I also have a broader philosophical question about exercise programs, but will put that off to a separate post some time. 

Michael

[Lyle Bogart]

Michael,

 

In the past I've specifically trained for specific atheletic endeavors such as technical rock and ice climbing, marathon running, and olympic-style weightlifting. In those days, training occurred at a high intensity, often for hours on end, daily. In technical climbing and the sport of weightlifting, technique is supremely important, so a fairly high volume of training was required (in olympic-style weightlifting, there were a few years of 3 workouts/day, 5 days/week with no single session lasting more than an hour). Marathon training was done at fairly high volume, too, but more for "psychological hardening" than for cardiorespiratory or musculoskeletal development. Training like this, though, is not about being healthy--it's about sports performance.

 

For health and general conditioning these days, I naturally cleave to something similar to Sisson's prescription. Mostly, I "play" for fitness. I still use principles of olympic-style weightlifting in my strengthening (I think the snatch and the clean & jerk are fun lifts and are very applicable across a wide variety of athletic applications), I ride a fixed gear for my cardiovascular development because this naturally entails interval training, I probably rest between workouts more than I should :) and I rarely, if ever, do the same exercises twice in any given week.

 

With respect to things like body fat percentages and the like, I recall a study (I don't have the article in front of me at the moment) which looked at 5 body fat of elite level male and female sprinters, middle-distance runners, and marathoners. Marathon runners (male) had % body fat around 11-13%, sprinters around 4% and middle distance runners were in the 6-10% range. The numbers for females were similarly distributed. If anyone would like the citation for the study, let me know and I'll dig that out when I get home. . .

 

I hope this helps. . .

 

Cheers!

 

lyle
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207.882.6494

206.794.6937

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[Lyle Bogart]

The "DPT" after my name is officially for doctor of physical therapy, but in the real world it signified "Damned Poor Typist".

 

this: ". . . looked at 5 body fat of elite. . . " should be ". . . looked at % body fat of elite. . . " 

Sheesh. . .

 

lyle

[Patrick in VT]

On Monday, October 8, 2012 12:36:23 PM UTC-4, franklyn wrote:

There is a whole community of people who were inspired by Bill Clinton's weight loss based on a lifestyle and diet changes . ..

Bill Clinton aside, "lifestyle" is a very important part of the equation.  There's a lot of talk about what to eat, how to eat, blah, blah .  . . but I don't think all that talk makes much difference if other aspects of lifestyle are out of balance.  There's a distinct feeling that comes with wellness - things get easy because being physically and mentally well feels really, really good.  the body naturally craves this feeling and eating well and being active is our natural default setting - I live that lifestyle not because i'm on a specific "diet" and "exercise" regimen, but simply because it makes me feel good, day in and day out.  it give me energy to do the things I like doing.  it naturally relieves stress.  it promotes rest and sleep.  there's no choice or calculus about whether to eat this or that, or whether i should "do cardio" - the only choice is whether i want to feel good or feel like crap. 

culturally, we're getting pretty far removed from our natural "wellness" default.  obesity, depression, anxiety ... that stuff goes hand-in-hand.  life gets out of control, weight gets out of control, and we eventually start to lose our minds and feel like crap all the time.  to feel "good" again, people over compensate with the things that should make us feel good - over eating is a prime example.  "Comfort" has literally become a food group. 

we need to get back to the basics and those who are really struggling with weight need a multi-dimensional solution.  be active.  have sex.  sleep.  volunteer.  pet a dog.  learn something new.  unplug the computer/TV and go outside.  that seems like a better prescription for weight loss than any diet. 

[RJM]

Get busy living or get busy dying.

[charlie]

I don't disagree but without and actual change in what one eats (if trying to lose fat) this doesn't work. I haven't stopped doing any of those things.... heck we don't even have television...A holistic approach is definitely important but the basic fact is about what and how much of it we eat.  Years of bad living often mean the damage is already done and some might only be able to slow the deterioration down making it difficult to return to a healthy body fat percentage and overall health. All the more reason to get on it as soon as possible. It is a well know fact that a very low percentage of the truly obese are not often successful in their efforts to lose fat. It is a real problem for some and not often understood by the average slightly chubby person. The subject and the people are more often laughed about, (I witnessed that yesterday at work) or dismissed as being lazy or otherwise flawed but that's another story........

"we need to get back to the basics and those who are really struggling with weight need a multi-dimensional solution.  be active.  have sex.  sleep.  volunteer.  pet a dog.  learn something new.  unplug the computer/TV and go outside.  that seems like a better prescription for weight loss than any diet."  

[Peter Morgano]

All good points but the issues I at least find in my life are bigger than just wanting to change or "doing things differently." Me and my wife get up at 7 and dont get back home from work until 6:30, then we eat dinner with our daughter, do homework and bed time. By then it is 8:30-9pm and everyone is exhausted and just wants to relax.  I do often get out on the bike and do an hour before coming home to shower and hit they hay but I have to make myself get out there alot of the time. Once I do though it is always a good decision as I feel better for having done it, and really enjoy myself to be sure. Not to get too meta here but the problem for alot of us is we are in a society that demands we work 50 hours a week and keep up a working family unit AND look great all the time and just something has to give. Newsweek had a great article last week pertaining to how this modern schedule is affecting women but touched on that no-one can lead a happy life at those levels. It is just sad to see a society that villifies people who are out of shape or frazzled so bad from just the daily grind that at the end of the day all they want to do is watch tv and eat some chips or ice cream. It is alot easier to just tell people to live healthier lives and get in shape, it is harder to understand the underlying causes of what makes people have to live unhealthy lives in the first place.

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[Lyle Bogart]

"the problem for alot of us is we are in a society that demands we work 50 hours a week and keep up a working family unit AND look great all the time and just something has to give"

 

+1

[PATRICK MOORE]

Good point, Peter. When you have demoralizing and therefore fatiguing "industrialized" work that has been broken down into inevitably dissatisfying unintelligible fragments -- true even of much "white collar" work -- combined with an agressive search for efficiency-for-profit that requires overwork just to let a family earn enough to meet social expectations for decent living, expectations that require an excess of expensive, intrinsically useless gadgetry (note that I realize that such gadgets have incidental but still very great benefits; I have two Macs and an iPhone, a microwave, and a car -- but no TV), and a material infrastructure that has been spread out geographically to meet the demand for more auto sales, leaving us to spend far too much time driving to and from our various activities: when you put all this together, it's not surprising that mental and physical health have to be maintained artificially instead of being supported by the ordinary daily routine.

My ex's way of living and my own illustrate this in a small way: she is a successful pediatrician and doctor of oriental medicine who, with her second husband, has opened a successful clinic and beauty treatment spa, and who over schedules our daughter with activities scattered around town so that of my circa 4,000 miles a year in the car (I work at home), fully 3,000 are for my daughter. My ex is fiercely disciplined and manages to cook well, exercise, and find recreation outside of her lengthy weekly work schedule, but it is, even for me who am only peripherally affected by it, rather exhausting. Note that discipline counts: her second husband, an OB-GYN, just turned 50, recently competed in his first Ironman -- in Wales.

Some years ago I read an interesting book by an ex MIT MS graduate whose Master's project had been to live with a very strict Amish or Mennonite group so traditional and secretive that he could not name their location (somewhere in the midwest, I think) to discover how their leisure time, quality of life and life-satisfaction compared to those of the average American. He found that because of community, simplicity in their manner of life, and maintenance of largely forgotten, traditional methods of work, that despite their eschewal of "labor saving devices" --- no horse drawn, gasoline-powered cultivators or motorized churns for them -- they were on the whole happier, more leisured, better fed and better rested than his control group. -- Tho' I doubt they rode bicycles.

FWIW and as an aside: 

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/not-amish-but-close/

On Wed, Oct 10, 2012 at 8:04 AM, Peter Morgano <uscpet...@gmail.com> wrote:

 Not to get too meta here but the problem for alot of us is we are in a
> society that demands we work 50 hours a week and keep up a working
> family unit AND look great all the time and just something has to give.
> Newsweek had a great article last week pertaining to how this modern
> schedule is affecting women but touched on that no-one can lead a 
> happy life at those levels. It is just sad to see a society that villifies 
>people who are out of shape or frazzled so bad from just the daily 
> grind that at the end of the day all they want to do is watch tv and eat > some chips or ice cream. 

[Patrick in VT]

On Wednesday, October 10, 2012 9:46:46 AM UTC-4, charlie wrote:

I don't disagree but without and actual change in what one eats (if trying to lose fat) this doesn't work.

On Wednesday, October 10, 2012 9:46:46 AM UTC-4, charlie wrote:

I don't disagree but without and actual change in what one eats (if trying to lose fat) this doesn't work.

of course food is part of the wellness equation.  my point is that positive lifestyle choices have a way of gaining momentum and spilling over into other aspects of our lives.  when we are well, the choice to eat healthfully and be active becomes less and less of a choice.  like Lyle wrote above, he "plays" for fitness.  wellness is a self-reinforcing cycle, just as unhealthy lifestyles and diet are part of a self-reinforcing "vicious cycle."

in this context, it doesn't surprise me at all that the truly obese have a serious struggle as depression, social anxiety and an unhealthy relationship with food and/or substance abuse trend together.  Food is particularly tricky because we eat 3-5 times/day - if somebody is bummed out or stressed out, it's going to be damn hard to do the right thing 3-5/day.  i linked a bike related story below - I've met this guy.  his story made an impact on me and got me thinking about how mind and body need to work together to solve these problems.  the common thread with a lot of the success stories i've read have to do with goal setting - and not, "i'm going to lose 20lbs by changing what I eat" kind of goals.  weight loss via diet alone doesn't address the bigger issue that is lifestyle.  when the going gets rough, there's nothing to reinforce the positive choices that led to the weight loss and people inevitably put the weight back on.  setting goals that help build a supportive social network, promote an active lifestyle, etc. will guide one to positive choices all around, push us to be the best version of ourselves and get on the path to mental and physical wellness.  food, both good and bad, has been around for a long time - to start blaming these foods or those foods now instead of recognizing and acknowledging cultural issues and being honest with ourselves about how we live and what we eat is a red herring.  food is simple.  life isn't - and that's when food becomes complicated.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/06/news/a-bicycle-and-a-few-friends-lead-a-big-man-into-an-even-bigger-world_226368

[charlie]

I don't doubt Ernest was depressed and it is quite an achievement to lose 200 pounds (me only 90 total) and I don't doubt the mind, body, lifestyle thing all have to work together...... I do believe however that eating carbohydrates does drive your blood sugar up causing the yo yo effect creating cravings for more and since they are not burned up or handled by an exhausted pancreas they get stored as fat. Pretty simple to me and is my experience. Eating protein, fat and veggies primarily has made it easier to resist sugar cravings, keeps me satiated and fuels the old body throughout the day without hunger. As far as maintaining the choice to eat that way, yes.......you have to make it a lifestyle change (sometimes on a minute by minute basis) and you can't (without consequences), compromise very often or at all depending on your particular sensitivity. Moving around is important also but I will say that my first 30 pound loss was while I was working 12 hours+ a day at a sit down job and doing virtually no exercise other than the very spotty bicycle ride a couple days a week. Working less, sleeping more and moving around are the changes I am slowly making as a few financial things fall into place. The one thing I can easily choose regardless of my current hectic lifestyle however is the type and amount of food I consume. I now end my speech and defer to others.......

On Wednesday, October 10, 2012 8:48:49 AM UTC-7, Patrick in VT wrote:I

[charlie]

Oh by the way I had 90 lbs. to lose total and so far 30 of it isgone for over a year and a half. Weight hasn't gone up but progress has stalled for me due to the compromise that I mentioned earlier.....some stressful family situations haven't made it easier. For now I am happy to maintain where I am at currently and not gain while I make a few other changes and can re-focus. Grants book "Just ride" simplifies what I am attempting to do.

[Bertin753]

Again, not to be annoying, this applies to some people and not for others.

Patrick Moore

iPhone

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[charlie]

Yes Patrick,

"If you are a leaned out super stud with no health problems due to your diet you may rest on the knowledge that you are invincible".... ; ) Ride on brutha its all good. 

[Bertin753]

Don't be silly. Be reasonable. There are millions of people worldwide who happily and healthily eat diets largely composed of carbs with few health problems. Please don't be totalitarian.

Patrick Moore

iPhone

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[Patrick in VT]

On Thursday, October 11, 2012 1:30:19 AM UTC-4, Patrick Moore wrote:

Don't be silly. Be reasonable. There are millions of people worldwide who happily and healthily eat diets largely composed of carbs with few health problems. Please don't be totalitarian.

Exactly.  blaming carbs in the context of obesity smacks of willful ignorance. People that stay weight neutral tend to have a healthy relationship with food regardless of carbs, fiber, grains, meat, vegetables, whatever.  To Peter's point above, I don't vilify people who choose to an extra meal of potato chips and ice cream - but if that's an everyday thing, it's a very good example of what it means to have a poor relationship with food.  Food should be nourishing, yet daily extra meals with no nutritional value is the norm for a lot of people because it comforts them.  Using food for comfort or stress relief should be a huge red flag - that's an eating/lifestyle problem, not a diet/carb problem.  Just like using alcohol to cope is a huge red flag. 

I recall reading that keeping a food journal is one of the top ways to lose weight - it forces one to be honest and accountable with respect to what and how much he/she is eating.  it makes a lot of sense to me because it also gets to the "why" am I eating this or that if it's not nourishing and I'm not hungry.  the extra food adds up quick - do the math on an extra 250 calories/day over 2 years.  then do it over 5 years.  if that extra 250 calories/day (a couple beers or a bag of chips or a bowl of ice cream) is the norm for two thirds of Americans, then the fact that two-thirds of Americans are overweight/obese makes perfect sense. 

[Peter Morgano]

Patrick is right, food and calories in general are an economy of scale, where small decisions can add up to something huge down the road, whether for the better or worse.  And while I am a political person I really hate to bring up politics or religion with people I don't know that well but I have to say that obesity is less in European countries that have more of a focus on quality of life as opposed to being slaves to the allmighty dollar. Even the Germans, who are put on a pedestal as the example of what hard work and dedication can accomplish have more paid time off and just free time in general to relieve some of the stress of every day life. I agree that using food for comfort can be just as dangerous as drugs or alcohol but again the drive to work more and more means less time to actually talk to someone or take a breather and go for a bike ride or read a book. We are taught from an early age that food is "comfort" and that exercise is "grueling" so it is easy to see why so many Americans are obese, but much harder to reverse this trend.

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[PATRICK MOORE]

Just for the record, I don't doubt the word of those who *have* benefited from the so-called Primal diet. It just seems that there is overwhelming evidence that it isn't necessary for very many people.

Peter and Patrick bring up and interesting point, that there may be more going on with food ailments than can be adequately analyzed merely in terms of calories, proteins, fats, and carbs -- that is, that there may well be social and psychological aspects to ailments often attributed to diet alone. I do know that, in traditional Chinese medicine -- and I expect that it is found elsewhere -- it is not only the "content" of the food that affects one's health (ie, the amount of commonly analyzed nutrients, fats, protein, carbohydrates, minerals, vitamins and so forth) but also how it is cooked, how it is grown, how it is stored and how it is served. So there may well be intangibles (at least, "intangible" to us descendants of the Enlightenment and its scientific successor) that affect how the same food can affect people in very different ways. 

That in itself would not be surprising, since there is obviously something in living beings, at least sentient living beings, that directs the body -- which is why sadness, for example, or stress, can kill a person or at least make him ill. Reductio corpus ad animam!

At any rate, there is at least a minority who certainly does thrive on a diet made very largely of animal products; long before the Primals there were the Inuit who survived thus for millennia.

[PATRICK MOORE]

To be precise: I mean that there are (empirically) huge number of people for whom it obviously isn't necessary. I don't presume to judge the fraction of people for whom it isn't beneficial or for whom it is.

[PATRICK MOORE]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inuit_diet#Nutrition

"The typical Inuit diet is high in protein and very high in fat – in
their traditional diets, Inuit consumed an average of 75% of their
daily energy intake from fat.[32]"
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inuit#Diet)

The footnote refers to this: http://discovermagazine.com/2004/oct/inuit-paradox

Very interesting!

See the "Diet" section here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maasai_people#Diet

And: http://www.livestrong.com/article/293306-masai-tribe-diet/

Which last says that the Maasai have, or had, very low levels of heart disease:

"

Adaptation

Research published in the "New England Journal of Medicine" found that
the Masai demonstrate some unique biological characteristics. Despite
their high-fat diet, they have consistent low levels of cholesterol
and lipoprotein with no indication of atherosclerosis. The study
suggested that the Masai possess a cholesterol-absorption control that
compensates for dietary cholesterol. An absence of cholesterol
gallstones was also noted. The study concluded that these positive
realizations may reflect a long-term biological adaptation of the
tribe.

Coronary Disease

A survey published in the "Journal of Atherosclerosis Research"
investigated reasons for Masai tribe subjects having low levels of
serum cholesterol with little or no evidence for atherosclerosis and
heart disease, despite continuous consumption of meat and milk. It was
suggested that perhaps freedom from emotional stress or large
quantities of physical exercise may be responsible for the incongruity
with animal fat intake to coronary disease rather than diet fat being
a contributing factor.

Blood Pressure

Analyses performed on subjects from tribal and non-tribal Masai found
differences in physical characteristics, pulse rate and systolic blood
pressure, as published in "Annals of Human Biology." The nontribal
sample had significantly higher blood pressure than the tribal
members. The tentative conclusion was that blood pressure is affected
by change in environment, and the effect on cholesterol levels may be
longer-term.

The Effect of Milk

The University of Southampton researchers assessed the very high milk
intake of the Masai diet and their low cholesterol levels. Findings
published in "Atherosclerosis" suggested a "hypocholesterolaemic
factor" in milk that attributed to a genetic adaptation.



Read more: http://www.livestrong.com/article/293306-masai-tribe-diet/#ixzz290Su7hOH"


Note, on the other hand, in contradiction to the "Paleos'" assertion
that cavemen didn't eat much carbohydrate, that many hunter gatherers
that we actually know of did depend greatly on wild seeds, with meat
in particular being relatively scarce. Here is one example, the
Chumash:

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080408202149AAegPoi

And here a nutritional analysis of the acorns that made a good part of
their diet (in addition to "other seeds"):
http://quitehealthy.com/nutrition-facts/nuts-seeds/120591.html

42% carbs.

This is very interesting, arguing that, in fact, the "Primal" diet was
largely vegetarian; they talk about the Sho of the Kalahari in
particular:

http://www.ivu.org/history/early/archaeology.html

I know that wild grasses' seeds were an important part of the diet of
SW Indians -- I've got some hugely overgrown (over 6' high and 5' in
diameter) wild SW grasses at my door this minute, all recently seeded.
Have been tempted ...

https://picasaweb.google.com/BERTIN753/Paleo

Note the bushmeat in the doorway, too.

[grant]

Visit nusi.org. We can guess, but they will discover.


On Sunday, October 7, 2012 11:08:18 PM UTC-7, Tim McNamara wrote:

The point of moderation is to prevent problems.  Once you've already got problems, it may be a different story. However, extremity in seeking weight loss may not be a good plan either.  I have known people who developed health problems as a result of the Adkins plan, the "primal" type stuff, etc.  I've also known people helped by it.  These are decisions to be made with the advice of a doctor, not an Internet mailing list or a blog or some other web site.

My Dad was an insulin dependent diabetic from the age of 6, which he developed as a consequence of having had polio in 1935.  He took two to three shots of insulin a day for the rest of his life, which was about 25 years longer than he had been told to expect (he lived to be 67).  It's a disease best prevented.  Even though he was compliant with diet and treatment, it still took a toll on his health (coronary artery disease, peripheral vascular disease, peripheral neuropathy but oddly no problems with kidneys or eyes).  He had a great endocrinologist... It's so much better not to need a great endocrinologist.  As a result I pay a lot of attention since I may have an increased risk, although no doctor can tell me for sure since diabetes does not run strongly in the family on either side.  

On Oct 7, 2012, at 9:49 PM, charlie <cl_...@hotmail.com> wrote:

Kind of agree and kind of don't.......(for some) trying to lose fat, moderation amounts to no progress. For those people it takes absolute vigilance and resolve without any wavering to lose fat and maintain their effort. Compromise just doesn't end well ultimately. Maybe for the average person that idea is okay......I'll give ya that. For someone on the edge of diabetes, compromise will put them over the edge into the abyss of insulin injections and a decline in the quality of life.

On Sunday, October 7, 2012 9:02:23 AM UTC-7, Tim McNamara wrote:

Too much of anything is bad for you.  Too many carbs, too much fat, too much protein, too much water, too much alcohol, too much exercise, too much laziness, too much stress, etc.   Humans are omnivorous in many ways and can thrive in an amazing variety of situations.

Moderation in all things, including moderation.

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[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

If nothing else, I think we can all agree that people who eat low-carb diets tend to look good riding lugged steel, especially if twine and feathers and tweed are part of the ensemble.

[charlie]

Thanks Grant......I was beginning to get discouraged in this thread and was ready to abandon my efforts from the past year and a half and just go back to eating carbohydrates again, gaining back all the fat I lost since it obviously doesn't work. I figured I'd  just count calories again and eat get a better attitude since I must not have a good one because I am a fat guy  ; ) ........Seriously though Grant, I do appreciate your articles, interviews, the new book and your links to various authors and websites that we have been reading on the subject of eating a "Paleo" / ancestral diet etc. It has helped me greatly to get control of my food cravings which has resulted in several symptoms disappearing (that I won't elaborate on) not to mention the obvious loss of fat. My clothes size went down I feel better and I have you to thank for pointing the way after I had tried nearly every other method from crazy exercising routines to calorie counting, food weighing, not eating fat, portioning, the wife went vegetarian (not me) etc. etc. I could go on but this approach has been the easiest to maintain and one that get results....thanks again. I look forward to the research site you gave the link to......it looks like they are on the right track. My own experience however is proof enough for me ( in spite of the naysayers and skeptics) but I welcome the added knowledge the "NUSI" group will bring to the subject.

[jimD]

I don't always eschew carbohydrates, I do look very good on my Rivendell!

…and, oh, umm, I wear a helmet... cause it holds my mirror.
-JimD

Come to think of it, we should talk about mirrors, those should generate some heat and light along with incredible insights.

On Oct 11, 2012, at 6:12 PM, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery wrote:

> If nothing else, I think we can all agree that people who eat low-carb diets tend to look good riding lugged steel, especially if twine and feathers and tweed are part of the ensemble.
>

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[Peter Morgano]

Why does one mirror on a bike look ok but two makes a bike look like Pee Wee Herman should be riding it, while all cars just come with two?

[Mojo]

I want to thank you Grant for bringing Gary Taubes' book and the idea of low-carb diet into my world view. It has been life changing for me. I am not taking statins today because of you Grant. I am 18lbs lighter than before. My blood numbers are much improved. Maybe most importantly I have a fundamentally different relationship with food now. As much as I appreciate the changes you brought to my cycling, this is more important. Again, thanks Grant!

[jimD]

Zowie, woulda thunk it?

I could put two mirrors on my helmet - one right, one left. Would probably get a head ache and end up cross eyed.

-JimD

[Patrick in VT]

On Thursday, October 11, 2012 7:39:42 PM UTC-4, grant wrote:

Visit nusi.org. We can guess, but they will discover.

I visited.  The Board of Directors biographies are telling.  Private Equity + Consulting + Pharmaceutical = drug development.  Anybody want to bet against that?

[charlie]

The scientific board of advisors, the general advisory board and the board of directors are all well educated credentialed  people from a variety of backgrounds. Seventeen people so far............ I mean who else would be better a butcher, baker and candlestick maker? Perhaps these folks are really trying to make a difference.....time will tell. Nice to know what their education and experience has been up front.

[Patrick in VT]

On Friday, October 12, 2012 9:38:00 AM UTC-4, charlie wrote:

The scientific board of advisors, the general advisory board and the board of directors are all well educated credentialed  people from a variety of backgrounds. 

I wish I could see the good in it, Charlie - I really do.  but I was taught to think critically about these things.  the Board of Directors has experience in bringing drugs to market.  The Board calls the shots.  NUSI will provide the science/research for the phases of FDA approval.  and these companies, among many others, will make money hand over fist:

- McKinsey and Company - http://www.mckinsey.com/client_service/pharmaceuticals_and_medical_products/expertise/research_and_development
- City Hill Ventures, LLC (private equity)
- Halozyme Therapeutics (NASDAQ: HALO)
- Abbot Laboratories (NYSE: ABT)
- Shasta Ventures (private equity)
- Ziff Brothers Investments

and the Board of Adviors is comprised of more venture capitalists, risk scientists, health care insiders, and none other than Mr. FourHourWorkWeek himself, Tim Ferriss.  seriously?

in any event, whether the drug makes a difference or not remains to be seen.  but there there will be a drug and it will join the ranks of lipitor ($7.7billion/year for mostly preventable cholesterol/heart disease), plavix ($6.8billion/year for mostly preventable heart disease), ($6.2 billion/year for mostly preventable heartburn . .. freakin' heartburn!).  The market for a prescription drug to combat obesity is unfathomable .. .. wait, no its not.  the initial market will soon be 50% of our country (call it 150,000,000?) multiplied by the cost of Mr. Pirelli's miracle fat-reducing elixir (call it $100/month) . ... $180,000,000,000/year.  Subtract $180 *billion* if you think i overshot it. 

[PATRICK MOORE]

More data to confuse the issue: http://www.theawl.com/2012/10/the-sugar-wars

Note that the report refers to a debate more particularly on sugared
sodas, but it does show that the leading scientists are still very
uncertain about the fundamental causes of obesity *in our society*
(the latter is the context of their debate, as far as I can tell from
the report).

Food used to be simple, right? I wonder what happened?

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[charlie]

On Friday, October 12, 2012 8:18:38 AM UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote:

More data to confuse the issue: http://www.theawl.com/2012/10/the-sugar-wars

Here is something interesting, this is from a Vegan site......although it is found elsewhere and is common knowledge and historical fact.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://www.wholevegan.com/refined_sugar_history.html

[charlie]

Ummm just ate chicken and rainbow chard from our garden with a big green salad........nothing wrong with thinking critically. If NUSI merely does the research and brings a drug to help fight obesity in the truly obese then fine. A 500 pound man may benefit from something like that.....if in fact there is a hormonal link to such obesity as some suspect or......it may just be that these folks mean well and are honestly wanting to find the causes of obesity as the founder states. Not sure if you have ever been obese (not talking 20 pounds of middle age fat here I mean a lifetime of extreme obesity) but for someone with this problem who has tried most (if not all) other avenues it can be extremely frustrating. Frankly, I don't care if someone of even a bunch of people make billions off their efforts (making money is not a crime)....heck the entire pharmaceutical/medical industry has been doing that for years while many obese folks are miserable. I (do) see the potential good in it. One might argue that all the obese must do is discipline their lives, eat right and exercise. Much easier said than done especially if the one saying it doesn't have the problem to begin with. Its not unlike the natural skinny man trying to (gain weight) who has a super high metabolism and never gains more than 15 pounds all the while lifting weights like a maniac and eating as smart as he can......