why do people like front rando bags?

[Shifty]

I've been admiring bags and racks on the Rivendell Flicker site: http://www.flickr.com/groups/rivendell/pool/tags/ahomerhilsen/ and have been pondering the purchase of a larger bag. I've used Acorn Saddlebags for awhile now and have been generally content so,why do so many people like front rando bags instead of saddlebags? Doesn't the weight foil your quick steering ability? And isn't it always better to have weight low and in the rear for stabililty? Thanks for your comments and a favorite bag if you've found one.

[Kenneth Stagg]

I'm not sure what you mean by "front rando bag". Do you mean a
largish handlebar bag supported on a rack? If so then I've got to say
I love them, though I use them (at least on the Mariposa) with a
saddlebag, not instead of.

If the bike is designed for them the handling is just fine. Even with
a load in my handlebar bag (my tools are always there + miscellany)
the Mariposa is the lightest handling bike I've _ever_ ridden. It's
simply amazing. But it was designed from the ground up with that bag
in mind.

Both the tandem and the Mariposa have Arkel large handlebar bags that
have been modified to fit on custom racks. The bikes are also both on
the short side of medium for trail (about 45mm) but I don't know what
else affects their handling. The tandem, of course, doesn't handle
the same way as the Mariposa but it's not bad at all, and a **lot**
better with that handlebar bag than the Erickson that it replaced.
OTOH, the Erickson is very nice with light loads and narrower tires
that I typically use.

-Ken

[Peter Pesce]

There are some benefits to the front bag, depending on your needs. It's not necessary to use "only" a front bag, and many people combine front and rear as needed. Among the benefits are the ability to easily get things from the bag while you are riding, the ability to see your bag at all times (less likely to leave it open and lose things, for example) and the ability to put a map pocket on top.
A "rando" style front bag is usually mounted low, as low as possible, to keep the overall center of gravity low, and is also ideally as far behind the front axle as possible. This is the same idea as a rear saddle bag - weight low and between the axles. With a very small/light front bag the mounting isn't as much of an issue.
Regarding handling, some bikes work better with weight in front, some better with weight in the rear, and some like it pretty equal. While a heavy front bag might "slow" the steering of a bike not optimized for it, a heavy rear bag can likewise make the front feel too light and skittish on some bikes. It's not overtly stated that Rivs are designed for rear loads, but anecdotal evidence seems to indicate they like rear bags better then front, and Riv's emphasis on selling saddle bags over front bags might seem to support this.

I like the convenience of front bags, but usually keep my tools in a small saddle bag since they are always on the bike regardless of what other bags I'm carrying.

[Kenneth Stagg]

On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 11:10 AM, Peter Pesce <pete...@gmail.com> wrote:
> There are some benefits to the front bag, depending on your needs. It's not
> necessary to use "only" a front bag, and many people combine front and rear
> as needed. Among the benefits are the ability to easily get things from the
> bag while you are riding, the ability to see your bag at all times (less
> likely to leave it open and lose things, for example) and the ability to put
> a map pocket on top.

Right. I forgot to answer *why* I like them.

Ready access to things like cameras, food, wallet, cell phone, arm
warmers and maps. Also the map case - I've tried handlebar mounted
map cases before but I don't like them. The map case on Arkels are
very nice. I like the saddlebag for its carrying capacity but it's
nothing like as convenient as the handlebar bag. If you're using wide
enough handlebars the side pockets on the handlebar bag can also hold
water bottles.

Oh, and the rack that the bag mounts on makes a great place to mount a
headlight. If you mount it off to the side the spill from the light
reflects off of the moving spokes and I've been told by people who've
seen me riding at night in a group that it makes me *much* more
visible from the side.

-Ken

[Steve Palincsar]

On Thu, 2011-08-25 at 19:29 -0700, Shifty wrote:
> I've been admiring bags and racks on the Rivendell Flicker site:

> http://www..flickr.com/groups/rivendell/pool/tags/ahomerhilsen/ and

> have been pondering the purchase of a larger bag. I've used Acorn
> Saddlebags for awhile now and have been generally content so,why do so
> many people like front rando bags instead of saddlebags?

It's extremely convenient to have your gear where you can get at it
while you are riding, or while you've stopped and are straddling the
bike, vs. stopping, getting off, parking the bike, going around the back
and opening the bag to get at things.

> Doesn't the weight foil your quick steering ability?

No, not if the geometry of the bike is appropriate for carrying a front
bag. Not all bikes are designed to carry a front bag.

> And isn't it always better to have weight low and in the rear for
> stabililty?

No. That's fine for rear loaders. Bikes designed to be loaded in front
work differently.

> Thanks for your comments and a favorite bag if you've found one.

I have a couple of Gilles Berthoud bags, the GB28 and the 2886.

[Larry Powers]

I can agree with all that has been said and will add that I have many put miles on my Rambouillet using one of the largest Berthoud handle bar bags.  The key here is that bikes are optimized for certain things but this doesn't mean that aren't adequate for others.  I do notice the bag when climbing a 12% grade at 4mph especially when I am well into a 600km ride.  This is a very small percentage of the time that I am on the bike and once I am over 5 or 6 mph I don't notice the bag.  I do keep my tools in a rear bag which helps minimize the weight up front.   The ability to reach food, a hat or arm warmers while riding can't be beat and there is no better place for a map or queue sheet then the top of the bag.

Larry Powers
 
Get a bicycle.  You will not regret it if you live. - Mark Twain

---

Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 19:29:10 -0700
From: seand...@earthlink.net
To: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [RBW] why do people like front rando bags?

I've been admiring bags and racks on the Rivendell Flicker site: http://www.flickr.com/groups/rivendell/pool/tags/ahomerhilsen/ and have been pondering the purchase of a larger bag. I've used Acorn Saddlebags for awhile now and have been generally content so,why do so many people like front rando bags instead of saddlebags? Doesn't the weight foil your quick steering ability? And isn't it always better to have weight low and in the rear for stabililty? Thanks for your comments and a favorite bag if you've found one.

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[Ian Dickson]

Like everyone else, I like the convenience of having the bag right in front of me. I can get into the bag while I'm riding, but it's also great when I'm stopped. It's especially handy for getting a camera out quickly. Also, I think the rectangular shape allows a more efficient use of space, so a handlebar bag seems to hold more than a saddlebag that's nominally the same size. Right now I'm using a big front bag on my Hunqapillar, and the handling is fine as long as the weight is reasonable (as in, I wouldn't fill the bag with canned goods). That's a very stable bike with fat tires, so I'm not saying you'd have the same experience with a road bike designed for rear loads. I just don't know.

[Michael Hechmer]

I've tried them all and the all have pluses and minuses.  A front mounted Acorn Rondo bag has absolutely no impact on the handling of my Rambouillet, and I like having the map reader and easy access to food, etc.  I have used a Carradice Barley for commuting and liked that too.  The Carradice Long Flap is OK if you don't overload it, but by the time I get my Macbook into it, I can feel the sway, especially when I stand up.   I have carried near 40 lbs, balanced between front and rear panniers on the tandem and found the steering absolutely neutral.  Carrying weight low seems intuitively better, but I like to have as much stuff above the fenders as possible.  There's a reason the mountains are Green in VT, and the same reason will leave panniers mud caked.

A while back BQ did wind tunnel tests and came to the surprising conclusion that front bags were more aero than rear, but I suspect the real issue is whether the bag has a wider profile than the rider.   Panniers are a definite looser on that score.

michael,

nursing a strained back in Westford, VT

[Mike]

The first year I randonneured I used a Carradice Barley bag to hold my
gear and attached to cue sheet to a clip on my handlebars. This was
okay but not idea. Since then, 3yrs, I've been using a Berthoud front
bag, the big one as I ride a 63cm Hilsen. I used it mounted on a
Mark's Rack with a Berthoud decauler and it seemed to work well
enough. I tried it out on my Rambouillet with Ruffy Tuffys and didn't
really like the handling, it seemed to want to dive into corners more.
I'm sure I could have gotten used to it. This year, right before my
600k I took deliver of a custom low-trail rando bike with custom rack
and it's a huge improvement on handling. I love that set-up.

As for the front bag... like others have said, it makes accessing your
gear so much easier while riding. I usually keep my camera in the
small pocket on the right side. This allows for easy access to my
camera while riding. But probably what I like best about my front bag
is being able to clearly view the cue sheet when doing a brevet. It's
just so much easier to read. I should add that it's important to have
a properly sized front bag. I use the tallest Berthoud bike because my
bikes are big. With a shorter bag it just doesn't look right to me but
it's also harder to read the cue sheet.

--mike

[Forrest]

Ken --  I'd like to know more about how you adapted your Arkel Big Bar Bags to fit on front racks. Not so tough to affix them semi-permanently, but I'm looking for an elegant solution for quick on-and-off using a rack. I do not like the Arkel system for affixing the bag to the handlebar, though it is rock-solid. Too high, though, and why not use the front rack if you've got it?  -- Forrest (Iowa City)

[Kenneth Stagg]

I agree about the normal mounts. The systems on the Mariposa and
Bushnell are different. The Bushnell's front rack includes two
vertical tubes that matching tubes attached to the bag slide over. No
pictures of that handy. On the Mariposa uses a sort of decaleur, but
since it's all custom built and fitted, it uses a single tube attached
to the fork horizontally and short, pivoting tubes that slide over it
attached to the handlebar bag. No really good pictures but what I
have show some of how it works.

-Ken

[Steve Palincsar]

No idea about how Arkel bags work, but the Nashbar Elite comes with a
plastic KlickFix type bracket that I think may be similar. I adapted a
Nashbar Elite bag for use with a Velo Orange decaleur by drilling out
the rivets and removing the plastic KlickFix bracket, and installing the
bag-mounted part of the VO decaleur to the bag with screws, with a
plastic reinforcement behind the fabric. I also did some modification
of the bag with a razor blade, cutting off some straps and removing the
"floor" between the upper and lower compartments.

It worked well for a couple of years, until finally the zipper failed.
The zipper was always the weak part of the bag, and it was balky from
day 1.

[Steve Palincsar]

On Fri, 2011-08-26 at 12:39 -0700, Mike wrote:
> I should add that it's important to have
> a properly sized front bag. I use the tallest Berthoud bike because my
> bikes are big. With a shorter bag it just doesn't look right to me but
> it's also harder to read the cue sheet.

Me, too: 59 & 60 cm frames, and bars up at saddle height. The bag's got
to fit the space, and there's only so far down decaleurs can reach so
the bag has to make up the difference.

[Kenneth Stagg]

On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 4:21 PM, Steve Palincsar <pali...@his.com> wrote:
>
> No idea about how Arkel bags work, but the Nashbar Elite comes with a
> plastic KlickFix type bracket that I think may be similar.  I adapted a
> Nashbar Elite bag for use with a Velo Orange decaleur by drilling out
> the rivets and removing the plastic KlickFix bracket, and installing the
> bag-mounted part of the VO decaleur to the bag with screws, with a
> plastic reinforcement behind the fabric.

Somewhat similar but there's no need to drill it out as the mounting
hardware is screwed on already. You can make out some of the detail
through the pictures on Arkel's website:
http://www.arkel-od.com/us/all-categories/handlebar-bag/big-bar-bike-bag.html#!/more-details

I believe that both Mike Barry and David Feldman used the holes that
are already in the bag (and through both the aluminum frame and the
plastic shell) for attaching their hardware.

-Ken

[Shifty]

These are really helpful comments. I forgot about how far ahead the front axle is on my soon-to-be Hilsen. That'll make a huge handling difference than bikes I've tried with $20 handlebar bags. And thanks for reminding me how much I crave being able to grab food, dump arm warmers, or tweak my handlebar angle while riding. In all those examples I typically pull over. Man, at the very least I HAVE to get a rando bag for our tandem, my wife will love not having to dig things out for me too.

Best to all! Shifty

[Liesl]

I know I'm late on this thread, but I'd just like to add to the
discussion that a Mark's Rack or Mini Front Rack with a Li'l Loafer /
Sackville TrunkSack (small) is a swellegant solution. It not only
places the weight down lower and but keeps the ability to strap on a
sweater, etc, to the top. If you want more room, add a Keven's Bag /
Sackville SaddleSack (XS) / Brand V Seat Bag to the bars and you've
got great access, flexibility, and weight distribution. Plus it works
with any handlebar--including m'bars, which can be hard to bag so to
speak--and smaller frames.

This set-up has just about all of the things folks like about boxy
rando bags . . . the only thing I wish it offered was the slide-off-
the-rack-and-voila- it's- a-shoulder-bag aspect of the BarSack and
BarSackRack! The BarSack/BarSackRack is about the same in cost as the
FrontRack/TrunkSack combo, but a front rack, I'd offer, is more
flexible in what it can carry than a BarSackRack. (Read this out loud
and you'll swear the Riv collective is in cahoots with Dr. Seuss!)

Okay, one last thing: a TrunkSack or Li'l Loafer on the front is so
dang dapper!

yours,
Liesl

[dougP]

I agree with all the above re: ease of access & convenience. My
Acorn Boxy Rando has a couple of small pockets facing me. My cell
phone goes in one, and I can hear the phone ring, stop the bike and
answer it before it goes to voice mail. This can be a blessing or a
curse, however.

dougP

[Jim Cloud]

I have one of the original Nigel Smythe Lil Loafers that I frequently
use on my Rivendell Road Standard (photo:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/37964304@N05/5432058115/in/set-72157625889961383/).
I agree that the Lil Loafer is very useful and elegant. I also have a
Gilles Berthoud GB2886 handlebar bag, but for day rides of moderate
duration and length, the Lil Loafer suffices very well!

Jim Cloud
Tucson, AZ

On Aug 29, 1:27 pm, Liesl <lchat...@smm.org> wrote:

[CycloFiend]

on 8/30/11 12:09 PM, dougP at doug...@cox.net wrote:

> I agree with all the above re: ease of access & convenience. My
> Acorn Boxy Rando has a couple of small pockets facing me. My cell
> phone goes in one, and I can hear the phone ring, stop the bike and
> answer it before it goes to voice mail. This can be a blessing or a
> curse, however.

I heartily recommend looking into caller-specific ring tones...

- Jim "Curiously, my day-job ringtone is very, very, quiet"

--
Jim Edgar
Cyclo...@earthlink.net

Cyclofiend Bicycle Photo Galleries - http://www.cyclofiend.com
Current Classics - Cross Bikes
Singlespeed - Working Bikes

Gallery updates now appear here - http://cyclofiend.blogspot.com

"That which is overdesigned, too highly specific, anticipates outcome; the
anticipation of outcome guarantees, if not failure, the absence of grace."

William Gibson - "All Tomorrow's Parties"

[Shifty]

My heart now beats a little faster when considering what I now know to be called, front mount bags and handlebar bags, thanks to all the positive reviews. It's a much spendier proposition than I first realized, however. The front mounts not only require a $120ish front rack but a $85ish decalleur. That means the two bags I'm particularly enamored with, the Acorn Boxy Rando Bag and the Berthoud GB25, seemingly attainable bags at $175 and $255 respectively, actually cost around $380 and $460!!!

As a result, I'm heavily considering Riv's Sackville Barsack and Nitto F-15 mount for a grand total of $225. I like the idea of quickily taking the back with me when I lock it outside while I refuel on caffeine and scones. It also appears quick and easy to remove the rack for quicker, tube+pump fitness rides.

Any critiques of this set-up are welcome. I

[dougP]

If the Sackville is large enough to carry your stuff, it's a good
choice. The F-15 will take up some handlebar space. The main
question is whether that set-up will handle the wieght and volume you
carry.

My Acorn Boxy rando sits on the little front rack, no decalleur. I
too like a quick off'n'on, so I added a pair of D-rings to the bottom
near the front and a bit of shock cord with an S-hook. It seems
secure enough between the rear strap that drops over the rack and the
single cord in the front. I don't bother with the 4 velcro straps. I
tend to stuff it full of food, camera, etc, then cram a jacket on top
to the point of bulging the top. Stability seems OK.

dougP

[PATRICK MOORE]

My own take on front rack bags is as small augmentations to panniers.
I hope soon to get a small one that will fit without decaleur on my VO
randonneur rack, about the size of but more accessible than say a
Banana bag or a bit bigger. That will suffice for repair kit and tubes
as well as bunch o' keys and food when I don't want to carry a rear
pannier.

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Patrick Moore
Albuquerque, NM
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[Steve Palincsar]

On Mon, 2011-09-05 at 16:02 -0600, PATRICK MOORE wrote:
> My own take on front rack bags is as small augmentations to panniers.
> I hope soon to get a small one that will fit without decaleur on my VO
> randonneur rack, about the size of but more accessible than say a
> Banana bag or a bit bigger. That will suffice for repair kit and tubes
> as well as bunch o' keys and food when I don't want to carry a rear
> pannier.

I think a small size rack top bag would do nicely for that.

[PATRICK MOORE]

But that would leave my front rack without any bag, no? And more
seriously, the idea is to have a front bag on all the time while the
panniers of various sizes come and go as needed.

[Steve Palincsar]

On Mon, 2011-09-05 at 16:39 -0600, PATRICK MOORE wrote:
> But that would leave my front rack without any bag, no?

I mean, use a small rack-top bag on your front rack. My friend Sarah
has exactly that setup on her VO Randonneur w/VO front randonneur rack,
using a bag she bought from an exhibitor at NAHBS at Richmond a year or
two ago. It fits perfectly. Can't access it while riding, of course,
but other than that it's fine. I don't recall the name of the bag
maker, but it was a small custom firm, just the sort of outfit iBOBs and
the like enjoy buying from.

Drop me a PM if you'd like more info about the bag.

[Lynne Fitz]

Acorn Boxy Rando bag, custom teeny front rack (on custom Sweetpea :-) )

I *am* a rando.  I like the map case (score a 9x12 ziploc(tm) bag, and your map is encased in a waterproof jacket, easy to flip and refold...).  I like the back-facing pockets - food! I like the front pocket - ibuprofen, wipes, lip glop, reading glasses, other helpful hygiene stuff.  I like the big pocket - more food, extra gloves, other lenses for glasses, first aid kit, cpr mask, extra camera battery, car keys, little Gorilla tripod, place to quickly stuff some clothing.  Side pockets - there is a glasses wipe in there, but that is about it.  Narrow handlebars.

Can't ride no-hands reliably yet, but I do not think it is a function of the front bag.  I think the cable bends might be a little tight.

In back; nice weather, a Rivendell Banana-type bag, not-so-nice-weather, a Carradice Barley.  That's where the tools, spare tire, spare tubes, patch kit, and extra dry clothing hang out.  The Barley gives me more cargo space, and on those long cold dark wet rides, I need it.

[PATRICK MOORE]

Thanks, Steve; actually I am waiting for a custom from a fellow
listmember that ought to be just what I need. I did think of a small
trunk rack until this deal came up.

[Ken Freeman]

I don't yet have a solid front-mount setup so my comments are limited, but just please be aware, Velo-Orange has two decaleurs available at about $30 per set.  One attaches to the headset, and one to the stem at the handlebar clamp.  Assuming the Campagne or the Minnehaha front bags are sufficiently functional, the total cost to get started could be from $90 to $120, not including the rack.  The cheap but less aesthetic approach with a rack is the cheap aluminum black anodized rack, usually sold for about $20 shipped on Ebay.  Needs Pclips and careful fitting, but it did work for me on a SAGged tour.  An even cheaper approach for a bag is a vintage Rhode Gear, Cannondale, or other front bag from the '70s or '80s.  Takes some fabrication to provide stiffening and mounting for the decaleur, not to mention bottom securing to the rack, but it WAS cheap, and it worked.  The tradeoff was water resistance, but that's the bag, not the concept.

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