Need help deciding... Soma San Marcos or Revamp an 84 Trek 610...

[trek610]

Hi all,

I am at a cross roads and need some help deciding on how best to spend my money...

I am looking to get a nice all around bike for commuting, perhaps a century or two, 2 day bike overnight credit card, and light trail (crushed limestone/dirt) type riding. In the summer I wind up with 50 - 150 miles per week.   I am currently using a Surly LHT for this type of riding, and really like it, but am longing for something a bit more .....sprightly.  Here is a picture of my current LHT to give you an idea of how I would like to setup this new ride.

I am not the tallest guy and ride a 50 - 53cm frame depending on the setup.  I would outfit his new bike in a similar fashion with fenders, racks, rando bag etc...

Here is my problem.  I found a 531cs Trek 610 from 1984 that has (IMHO) nice geometry for my needs.  Some specs - 430mm chain-stay, 52mm rake, 72mm bottom bracket drop, and i think 72 for so seat and head tube angles.  Trek does not publish the geometry for anything but 22.5" frames that year...

Trek Upgrade Path

1. 700C or 650B wheel conversion - bigger tire, better ride, more fender clearance (I already have a nice set of velocity 700c wheels for this project....)
2. complete powder coat
3. Canti brake studs added
4. brazeons for various items
5. cold set the rear end
6. etc... 

I guess in the end this will require many new parts, some of which I have, but will be a considerable investment nonetheless.  

Now here comes the San Marcos....  It seems to be a nice solution as well and may very well similar in price to the trek by the time I am done with the frame parts.  The San Marcos may be a bit more, but may be a better choice in the long run.  The San Marcos seems to have perfect geometry for my kind of riding...  

What would you do if you were me?  What bike will better serve me in the long run.  I have to admit, since I live in Madison WI the Trek has some sentimental value to me.  The San Marcos lugs look really nice however!  I am torn with which direction to go, and since this is a big outlay of cash for me I am looking for some advice before going one way or the other...  

Thanks in a advance to any/all help.

Thanks

[Cyclofiend Jim]

I've said before that it's always an honorable thing to revitalize an older, worthy frame.  It seemed like it might be a push until you got to "add canti posts" - .  It's also been a while since I looked seriously at 650B conversion candidates, and while I suspect that 610 is among them, I'm not sure. (Ride buddy JimG has been riding a converted Trek - http://www.flickr.com/photos/jimg/6808560813/in/photostream - though he's a bit lankier than you.)  And conversions generally have a way of going over budget.

I'd also be more inclined if you were the original owner of the frame.  To put it bluntly, you are taking a frame which you don't really know the history of, making significant changes to it, and hoping it comes out like the bike you think is perfect (geometrically speaking).   I've been lucky enough to ride the prototype San Marcos and it was a wonderfully responsive setup, and comes from the factory for the kind of clearances which make sense for your purposes.

If you are going to keep the LHT, I'd also give some thought to the amount of overlap which might be helpful between the two setups. They probably meet in the "two day credit card tour" vicinity.  The San Marcos can certainly do that, but would be my go-to for centuries, longer rambles and certainly trail work.

Hope that helps,

- Jim / Cyclofiend.com

 

[Will]

Greetings.

I also live in Madison, ride a 610 from 1984. It's a 54 cm... I am 5'6". Nice bike, good geometry, vertical compliance is very nice. A bit of spring to it.

Some thoughts.

Start with a trip to Budget Bikes on Regent, the used store location. I've always found used fenders: in winter they'll sell you used Planet Bikes for $20. Get the biggest you can fit. Then find a tire that works with the fenders. You might, I say: might, get to 32s on a 700c rim, I did. though it's a challenge. 

Don't put cantis on the bike. The fork blades are softer than you suspect. I had my blades restored at Yellow Jersey after I picked up a stick that jammed in the fork crown. Which is to say... when you get the fenders, get the ones that have release capability. I learned that the hard way. But know... the fork blades are designed to deform before the top and down tubes, they aren't suitable for posts.

Don't paint the bike. The enamel it has is good, it might need some Testor model paint spot-work, but that's easily done and if the bike looks less spiffy, so much the better when it's parked at Trader Joe's or Willy co-op. It rides the same.

Consider an upright bar and Riv's SOS thumbshifters, if you're ride the Isthmus/campus/downtown a lot. I have the old Suntour Command thumbies and they are wonderful. I'd also look into Velo-Orange's Dia-Comp centerpulls. My 610 came with Shimano 600s, which are OK, but I think the centerpulls would be better. I had them on an old Raleigh Comp. and liked them a lot.

As for braise-ons, you can do anything you want with p-clamps, and they are more flexible, should you change racks.

Finally, call CronoMetro and see when the swap event is scheduled this spring. You can get everything you want, really cheap, at the swap. Great advice as well.

Good luck.

Will

[William]

Both!  San Marcos immediately and take your time with the Trek.  Do the builds to complement each other in your stable.  After you are done with both, if you decide there is too much overlap and you can't stand owning two bikes, sell the one you don't like.  

[rcnute]

I like buying new bikes as much as the next guy but I'd just build up
the Trek without all the mods. Use it for your sprightlier adventures
and keep the LHT (nice setup there by the way) for other times. The
Soma looks like it'd ride quite nicely but my guess is that it splits
the difference between the Trek and the LHT in some ways.

I had a heavily-modded (by others) 650b'ified Trek 520 frame, which
was fine but I don't know that all the work that went into it
necessarily made it a better ride (but it was a cool project).

The Treks that took 27" wheels can fit 700c x 32s and fenders.

Ryan

On Feb 7, 6:05 am, trek610 <tspin...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I am at a cross roads and need some help deciding on how best to spend my
> money...
>
> I am looking to get a nice all around bike for commuting, perhaps a century
> or two, 2 day bike overnight credit card, and light trail (crushed
> limestone/dirt) type riding. In the summer I wind up with 50 - 150 miles
> per week.   I am currently using a Surly LHT for this type of riding, and
> really like it, but am longing for something a bit more .....sprightly.
>  Here is a picture of my current LHT to give you an idea of how I would
> like to setup this new ride.
>

> <http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b110/e_merlin/LHT%202010/IMG_0016.jpg>

>
> I am not the tallest guy and ride a 50 - 53cm frame depending on the setup.
>  I would outfit his new bike in a similar fashion with fenders, racks,
> rando bag etc...
>
> Here is my problem.  I found a 531cs Trek 610 from 1984 that has (IMHO)
> nice geometry for my needs.  Some specs - 430mm chain-stay, 52mm rake, 72mm
> bottom bracket drop, and i think 72 for so seat and head tube angles.  Trek
> does not publish the geometry for anything but 22.5" frames that year...
>
> Trek Upgrade Path
>

>    1. 700C or 650B wheel conversion - bigger tire, better ride, more fender

>    clearance (I already have a nice set of velocity 700c wheels for this
>    project....)

>    2. complete powder coat
>    3. Canti brake studs added
>    4. brazeons for various items
>    5. cold set the rear end
>    6. etc...

[Liesl]

This is an interesting question! I have a 50 protobleriot, a
51saluki, and a little '86 Trek 620, plus my partner has a Surly LHT,
*and* I grew up in Madison! (I'm just up 94 in Minneapolis now.) I've
looked into doing a lot of work on my 620 (similar in many ways to
what you've described) and have decided it's not the bike I want to
put the investment into–but then I don't have the skill to build
wheels or do welding, etc. It seems to me like the amount of work
you're wanting to do changes the bike quite a bit so that it's no
longer a Wisconsin Vintage Trek '82 610, but something that's morphed
into a different bike. This may not be important to you. And you
would love the Soma. On a different note, the small Soma frame takes a
650B wheel. I have two little bikes with this wheel size and love
them, and love the ride. However, rims and tires are limited, and
that's just a fact-of-the-matter is. Bottom line? Go with your
heart.

If you find yourself in Minneapolis and want to see my bikes, drop me
an email. Little bikes, and their own quirks of space for saddle
bags, etc, aren't discussed on the forum as much as big-bike things
like double top-tubes and so forth.

Best of luck on this caper! Keep us posted.

-Liesl

[Steve Palincsar]

On Tue, 2012-02-07 at 15:51 -0800, Liesl wrote:
> It seems to me like the amount of work
> you're wanting to do changes the bike quite a bit so that it's no
> longer a Wisconsin Vintage Trek '82 610, but something that's morphed
> into a different bike.

Have you ever seen the "creatively restored" Raleighs Peter Weigle has
done in the past couple of years?

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

As an aside related to the poster who mentioned Budget Bikes on Regent in Madison. Anybody who visits Madison should take a gander at this place, as it is the most stupefying spectacle I've seen in cycling. There are actually, I think, four or five Budget Bike locations on Regent within a 2-block stretch, but the one of interest is the used bike warehouse. Thousands of used bikes, many of which are pieces of undeniable cycling historical interest, occupy every square inch of this large, minimally-heated warehouse. The prices are nothing short of outrageous, like $500+ for an old Schwinn Varsity or an unremarkable ladies Raleigh Sports from the 1970s, and the price for anything even remotely more desirable will generally be $2000+. The rumor is that if you show interest in one of the bikes, the price will suddenly be significantly greater if you return to buy it the following day. My friend tried to buy a Jack Taylor tandem there once, and the price seemed about right. The employee said, sorry, not for sale. But there's a price tag on it, right? Turns out the price tag was for "insurance purposes". One current and one former employee there told me, when I asked about this curious business model, that the shop's owner focused on the "acquisition side" of the business, and that he made his living in real estate. The multiple bike shops are apparently some sort of hobby, or maybe a tax-avoidance scheme. In any case, I don't suggest buying anything there, but it sure is fun to wander around and look.

[trek610]

Thanks Will - maybe I will see you on the cap city trail at some point.  The Canti breaks not working on the fork was something I had not considered.  I understand the 531CS is somewhat lighter than regular 531 so you may be right.  Although there are many bikes with 531 Canti brakes...

I appreciate the good advice - and will consider it carefully.  I think brazen drop-outs -Cronometro's show was in January, and I missed it this year.  It is a great swap meet for sure.

Cheers 

[trek610]

Thanks Liesl!

Same to you - if you are in my area let me know and we can talk bike.  I love to talk saddle bags, racks and such for smaller bikes.

I hear you on all the mods on this thing, I hope it does not morph it into an abomination.  I am luck I have a frame builder here (Banjo bicycles) who can do all these mods for me at a reasonable price.  I am really leaning toward 650B conversion on this if I can figure out the brakes.

Anyway - I will likely wind up with something like the San Marcos or AHH type ride and will likely wind up at that price.  I believe it will wind up being special to me and a keeper for the long haul.  I can see passing it along to my son at some point.

Thanks again for the kind words and advice.

[trek610]

No I will have to check that out - I am assuming they turned out nice?

[trek610]

I mostly agree with your comments - I am friends with the manager who runs the store.  The sad thing is there is another warehouse behind the showroom that is stocked with more bikes.  I am not sure the owner really knows what he has.  There are no deals there to be sure.  Everything is really top dollar unless it has not been looked at in a while.  I found a few diamonds there - like a Gitane TDF, one of the nicer ones in nice shape for a couple hundred dollars.

I agree - if you come to Madison - you should stop and check this place out.  Just do not expect to find any deals.  The owner knows that he has some fine examples that are someones grail bike - and they will pay the asking price.  Even my buddy has to make a call to the owner if someone makes an offer on a bike.

I frequent the store to see what gems have be drug out of the back room..... and drool.

[Seth Vidal]

Jim,

Very curious. This was the exact opposite of the experience I
received when I visited Madison. We went by yellow jersey to see about
renting a tandem for the week we were there. The attitude and contempt
we received was unbelievable. We were told it was impossible to ride a
tandem in the city and they would not rent one to us if we were
planning to do that. When I asked if there was other bike shops that
did not share that belief I was told that they didn't shop at other
bike shops and didn't know of any.

We left and went to budget bicycles - both their facility with
hundreds upon hundreds of bikes:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/ejchang/5005545281/

and then their folder/tandem/recumbent-specific location. At the
location with the many older bikes we talked with a couple of
employees who said that they stockpile a lot of bikes and many of the
turnover for the massive influx of students to U-W. I asked about
tandems and they pointed me to the other location a few blocks down
the street.

At the tandem location we were shown their rental tandems and allowed
to try them out before determining which one to take for the week.
They were helpful and relaxed. We got a reasonable burley duet tandem
and were treated quite well. We also got to try out a brompton while
we were there. I asked about a map of the city paths. They didn't have
one on hand at that location so they suggested we go across the street
to one of their other locations. We went over there where we were
given a map and then the map was highlighted by one of the folks there
to tell us which paths were not in good shape right now. It was kinda
fantastic service.

I bought some tires and gloves from them before we left madison b/c of
how well we were treated. I'd recommend them to others.

Oh and I did see the two jack taylor tandems:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/ejchang/5005556695/
and
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ejchang/5005554239/

The price tags on them online are $9999.99 - which I suspect is the
MAX for their system.

They are also hung up 10 feet above the ground and angled so they can
be seen but not touched.

-sv

[Will]

Jim,

It's true that the Budget Bike owner has changed the tenor of the business recently. It used to be a real budget bike store. I bought 3 used bikes there: Trek 620, 610, and 613 from the early 80s. They were all very reasonable.

Budget's old business model was about recycling decent older bikes, keeping good rides on the road, so to speak. I heard the owner saw what was happening on eBay and decided he was in the collectibles business instead of the used bike business. Since then I have continued to buy used fenders and used parts, and in winter when it's really slow, good deals continue to be available. Used fenders in as-new condition can be had for $20.

The real deal is the annual bike swap sponsored by ChronoMetro.

The 600 series Treks from the early 1980s are nice bikes. They are a bit tight on tire clearance as practically everything from that time period is. On the other hand, it is really nice to ride 531 steel with slender tubes and stays. The bikes are lively in a way that OS tubes and beefier stays cannot match. The 610 is a great winter project bike. 

Will

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

Yes, I agree that the people at BBC are helpful and courteous. It just seemed like selling bikes was not part of the plan. I seem to recall that the JT tandem we looked at had a price tag of $1799 or so, but it wasn't actually for sale.

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

[Seth]

Hi,

As an owner of a Sam Hil. And a 82' Trek 613, I'd recommend the San
Marco, primarily because the Trek will run a maximum tire size of 28mm
with fenders (700c conversion). Further, the Riv has a very nice feel
that is quite distinct from the Trek, more stability, better down hill
handling. Not only would the Sam Marco give you the chance to run BIG
tires, you would know the history of the frame and be better able to
control rust.

Best,

Seth Ely

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

I have had a table at the chronometro swap since 2006, but decided to skip it this year. Maybe because I'm not local, I always felt it was difficult convincing people there that I wasn't trying to scam them. And there were a lot of gawkers who pawed through my stuff and offered lots of critiques (same guys every year) but never spent a nickel. From the perspective of a shopper, it is probably more favorable.

One favorite story from that swap: I had a new-in-box 70s vintage campy BB on my table. A very rotund, sloppy-looking dude with a fanny-pack and a satin jacket with some tavern name embroidered on it got visibly excited when he saw it and asked my permission to open the box. No problem. After removing the BB spindle and cups and gazing longingly at them for about 10 long seconds, he carefully lifted the unit to his nose, and inhaled deeply, as if he was a wine connoisseur or something. Not knowing what to make of the situation, I quipped "it still has that new bottom bracket smell" with what I hoped was a disarming smile. He then got upset with me, and loudly and emphatically said "NO! IT'S A CAMPY SMELL!" He then put the BB back in the table, gave me a dirty look, and stomped away. I don't get a lot of sniffers in my line of work, but when they do sniff, I know they mean business.

[Frank Brose]

Between Will and Ryan It's pretty well spelled out. I'd take their
advice. Not to mention the fact Will lives in MadTown.

> > Thanks- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Mike S]

I was in a similar scenario two years ago, though I was way too broke
to get the Sam Hillborne frame of my dreams and chose to parlay my
bike budget into a 1986 Trek 520 frame. The frame was traded with a
friend for a (nice, but too small) 80's Raleigh Grand Prix I bought
for $150 on Ebay, and it was a Craigslist find my buddy scored for
free, because I was desperate for the 64cm size.

I couldn't live with the battered paint on it and went for a gorgeous
$300 powdercoat in orange. Got all of the corrosion off and made it
look factory fresh, a really handsome restore. All told, I spent $350
(powdercoat + headset) of cash on the frame and attached all manner of
fancy Rivvish parts to it. Nitto cockpit, lugged seatpost to make the
too short top tube work, Tektro long-reach brakes, nice wheelset,
hell, even a split fender setup to work with the too-tight clearances.
Basically, I threw good money (nice parts) after bad (powdercoating an
anonymous decades old frame) and rode it about 2000 miles.

Then, in November, I began to notice the fork wobbling a bit for about
a week. The problem gradually got worse until I eventually realized
there was a crack running all around the headtube lug. The vintage
Trek that I had planned to get 20,000 miles of sadly barely got warmed
up, and now it will just be a flamboyant piece of garden art or some
such. I think the take-home message from this verbosity has already
been said in the thread: don't do this sort of thing unless you are
the original owner because god knows what that frame has been
through.

The story does have a happy ending, as the Hillborne of my dreams is
arriving at my LBS tomorrow and it's going to be united with all that
bike finery I invested in. At long last I will have a frame that truly
fits my crazy 96 PBH and will confidently truck through wherever I go
with whatever I carry for hopefully 100,000 miles or so. Can't wait!

TL;DR: Threw $350 at an unknown frame, it broke after not much
mileage. Mourned it's loss and got funds together for a Sam, gonna be
riding happy a long time to come.

On Feb 7, 9:05 am, trek610 <tspin...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I am at a cross roads and need some help deciding on how best to spend my
> money...
>
> I am looking to get a nice all around bike for commuting, perhaps a century
> or two, 2 day bike overnight credit card, and light trail (crushed
> limestone/dirt) type riding. In the summer I wind up with 50 - 150 miles
> per week.   I am currently using a Surly LHT for this type of riding, and
> really like it, but am longing for something a bit more .....sprightly.
>  Here is a picture of my current LHT to give you an idea of how I would
> like to setup this new ride.
>

> <http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b110/e_merlin/LHT%202010/IMG_0016.jpg>

>
> I am not the tallest guy and ride a 50 - 53cm frame depending on the setup.
>  I would outfit his new bike in a similar fashion with fenders, racks,
> rando bag etc...
>
> Here is my problem.  I found a 531cs Trek 610 from 1984 that has (IMHO)
> nice geometry for my needs.  Some specs - 430mm chain-stay, 52mm rake, 72mm
> bottom bracket drop, and i think 72 for so seat and head tube angles.  Trek
> does not publish the geometry for anything but 22.5" frames that year...
>
> Trek Upgrade Path
>

>    1. 700C or 650B wheel conversion - bigger tire, better ride, more fender

>    clearance (I already have a nice set of velocity 700c wheels for this
>    project....)

>    2. complete powder coat
>    3. Canti brake studs added
>    4. brazeons for various items

>    5. cold set the rear end
>    6. etc...

[Mike S]

Worth emphasizing a huge factor is the clearances. My Trek 520 could
(barely) take 32's and then had to do a split fender workaround. Now
I'm gonna rock fat & happy 40's with ultranormal fendering on the
Sam.

[jimD]

Well the dude was somewhat of a stinker.

I gotta look up some of my old Campy stuff.
That 'Campy smell' will be a new experience.

I learn great things here and they make me laugh.
-JimD

On Feb 7, 2012, at 8:57 PM, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery wrote:

> I have had a table at the chronometro swap since 2006, but decided to skip it this year. Maybe because I'm not local, I always felt it was difficult convincing people there that I wasn't trying to scam them. And there were a lot of gawkers who pawed through my stuff and offered lots of critiques (same guys every year) but never spent a nickel. From the perspective of a shopper, it is probably more favorable.
>
> One favorite story from that swap: I had a new-in-box 70s vintage campy BB on my table. A very rotund, sloppy-looking dude with a fanny-pack and a satin jacket with some tavern name embroidered on it got visibly excited when he saw it and asked my permission to open the box. No problem. After removing the BB spindle and cups and gazing longingly at them for about 10 long seconds, he carefully lifted the unit to his nose, and inhaled deeply, as if he was a wine connoisseur or something. Not knowing what to make of the situation, I quipped "it still has that new bottom bracket smell" with what I hoped was a disarming smile. He then got upset with me, and loudly and emphatically said "NO! IT'S A CAMPY SMELL!" He then put the BB back in the table, gave me a dirty look, and stomped away. I don't get a lot of sniffers in my line of work, but when they do sniff, I know they mean business.
>

> --
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[Liesl]

> As an owner of a Sam Hil. And a 82' Trek 613, I'd recommend the San
> Marco, primarily because the Trek will run a maximum tire size of 28mm
> with fenders (700c conversion).  Further, the Riv has a very nice feel
> that is quite distinct from the Trek, more stability, better down hill
> handling.

Yep, my 2 little Rivs feel a whole lot nicer than my Trek 620. And
just to add a bit more misery, have you compared the San Marcos to the
Sam?

-Liesl

[trek610]

SHHHHH!  If my wife hears that kind of talk I will be sleeping on the couch for a week!

I have not compared them to be honest.... I will take a peek at some point, but that will kill the budget for sure.  It will become a 2013 project for sure at that point.

[Chris Lampe]

To add even more misery, have you considered the Hunqapillar? In an e-
mail conversation with me, Grant basically described the Hunqapillar
as a new, improved and better Atlantis!

Something to think about.

[islaysteve]

I probably have little standing to comment, as a relatively new Riv owner (Bleriot), but I can't resist.  I've been in a similar position as you, budget-constrained, comparing alternatives on paper with little chance of a real-world comparison until the money is spent.  I vote for the San Marcos.  You will get, for all practical purposes, a Grant-designed Rivendell, with all of the good attributes that go into it.  And, the benefit of all of his designing experience, since it's a recent model.  I do see the attraction of a remake, repurpose, conversion of an honorable older frame.  But I think that the arguments you've read here tip the scales in favor of a frame that is more what you want, and more of a sure thing.  I bought my Bleriot frame without a ride on any Rivendell bike, based on my reading and, frankly, blind faith.  I haven't been disappointed at all.  I don't think it's necessary to strain the budget for a Sam, Atlantis, or Hunq, but by all means, research to your heart's content.  That's part of the fun, right.  Best of luck in your choice, Steve

[Manuel Acosta]

Do what I do in great life decisions like this. Flip a coin. That's
how I got to be a teacher. Or just go with the San Marcos. Anything
Rivendell touches is gold.

[charlie]

I've done this with a couple of Raleighs and a Centurion and they are
decent bikes but its difficult to know what damage or corrosion is
inside the frame. Stress cracks from accidents that have been
straightened on the rear triangle or just plain bad brazing with
overheated joints etc. You just don't know what you are getting
exactly. Some of those older frames were made with tubing thicknesses
for specific brake styles and I'd be careful adding cantilever studs
if the wall thicknesses are on the thin side ( run that by your
builder) forks are pretty important . On one of my projects I tossed
the original fork due to headset fit issues and felt better with a
new, although inexpensive fork. When you start adding braze ons and
paint you may as well buy a frame made for wider tires and all the
goodies. Grant really does a good job in that regard with things
fitting together nicely. I learned this with my Simple One.....racks,
fenders and tire clearance is just neatly done. I'd be inclined to buy
the San Marcos but actually a Sam Hillborne is a better frame in my
opinion. Not to beat a dead horse but whats wrong with the Trucker? I
have one and its fine.....I have a hard time believing that you'd
notice much of a difference with a new frame. "Sprightly"...... that's
a little vague.....be honest, you just want a different bike. It may
as well be a Rivendell they are pretty nice for quite a few good
reasons.

[Bruce Herbitter]

Pretty much how I feel about my 3 riv products, although there are many other models I have not had the pleasure of trying out.

[trek610]

Thanks Charlie - I hear you on the damage and tubing concerns.  I am lucky enough to have a frame builder local to me that is going to help me though this.  We have discussed the possibility of making a new fork.  If the frame has rust issues and other structural damage I will not move forward with it for sure.  The cost of adding cantis to a nice frame is pretty cheap - at least in my neck of the woods.  I was planning on painting it anyway, and have a resource to get that done on the cheap.

The trucker is a pig for sure - at least the way I have it setup.  Not sure if you looked at the pictures, but the Conti Contact 26 x 1.75 tires probably have something to do with that... but it was by design and I love the bike for it and what I use it for.  I have beat that thing fire roads occasionally and pulled a home made crappy cart with it.  It will stay as is.  Make no mistake - handling, feel, quickness i.e. sprightly would be the LAST descriptive term I would use.  Again - I love the bike and have pushed it thought a century or two.  I hope to have a better experience on long rides little or no load.  Maybe I am fixing my head, but my experience ridding other bikes has confirmed my belief of the rubenesque nature of the LHT.  Hopefully that dispels any vagueness I have previously conveyed.

Do I want a different bike - no revelation there.  I would be lying if I said no.  I am would have a garage full if my wife would not divorce me first.  I really hope to wind up with something different that what I have.  Perhaps something more special as it as hand built about 20 miles from where I live now.  Or it will be an abomination and I will learn a valuable lesson.  I am sure  the jury here will let me know there thoughts on that :-)

I like Grant and have leaned much about about bikes and subscribe to much his philosophy.  So much so that I purchased an XO-1 frame because I wanted a piece of that history and design perspective.  Riv undoubted makes wonderful bikes.  I can even say that I will own one in the future when I can swing it financially.  But that is not today.  

In terms of design, I wonder if there is any truth to the mystical nature of low trail 650B bikes.  Riv's do not (in my uneducated opinion) fall into this category.  There has been debate on this subject ad nausea already I will not pile on.  However - I believe there may be some truth to the hoopla and I want to find out for myself .... on the cheap.

Charlie - thanks for your sage advice.  I appreciate your point of view.  "It may as well be a Rivendell they are pretty nice for quite a few good reasons." - no doubt about that.  I envy you guys and your classy rides.

Cheers

[James]

I was just in the EXACT SAME SPOT as you! I had an '08 Surly LHT that
I rode constantly but was just finding it too sluggish. I wanted to
run 700x32s with fenders and caliper brakes. I wanted something to
fall in between my too-heavy LHT and my too twitchy/rough/unpleasant
road bike.

Guess what I bought. Go on, guess.

My San Marcos arrived this Tuesday and I am building it up this
weekend. It is gorgeous, and I cannot wait for her to be done. My
advice is do what you think you'll be happier with in a year, even if
it costs a few hundred dollars more.

James

[trek610]

Thanks James for the kind words - be sure to post pictures and a ride report.   I would love to hear you experiences and comparison against the trucker.

Cheers

[charlie]

Well written......I get ya on the LHT and the 'tanklike' nature of it.
I have mine set up with some 700x47's now and it'll roll over pretty
much anything.....but its not super quick or lively feeling but then
I'm not either. I've noticed a small but definite difference in
certain machines and like others have said tires make a big
difference. I used to run some 700x32's Urbanmax's on the Trucker and
it felt closer to some of my other bikes. Finding a ride that fits
your size, weight and strength to give the maximum durability and ease
of riding is kind of a process. I'm finding that a frame about the
weight and configuration of my SimpleOne with deraileur gearing and
37-38 mm wide tires works the best for me for the type of riding I
mostly do. I seldom venture off road and I live in a hilly area with
mostly decent pavement shoulders on the roads. I'm leaning toward an
eventual Homer Hilsen (but maybe beefed up in the down tube) because I
am not fond of cantilever brakes. I don't tour but do carry a saddle
bag so the Rando style machine is more to my liking with gearing set
up for my area and knees. Its taken me about ten bikes over the last
ten years to figure out what works best for me.......

[James]

She is built, and rode her to work this morning. The ride was as
beautiful as she is.

https://picasaweb.google.com/JamesDanielOsborne/SomaSanMarcos?authuser=0&authkey=Gv1sRgCPKXgfSFsuSipwE&feat=directlink

[Peter Morgano]

Gorgeous,  excellent choice.

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[naw...@comcast.net]

Very Nice!  Been eye balling one of those myself.

Dave Nawrocki
Fort Collins, CO

---

From: "James" <jamesdani...@gmail.com>
To: "RBW Owners Bunch" <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 12:39:16 PM
Subject: [RBW] Re: Need help deciding... Soma San Marcos or Revamp an 84 Trek 610...

[Tony Lockhart]

James, your new San Marcos looks good. Have you adjusted the rear rack
yet? Looks to be about 15 degrees too far counter-clockwise.

I'll just chime in because I used to own and LHT that was all but
sprightly. It was a great bike, but when stripped down, it was nowhere
near and zippy/sprightly as my Sam. I remember how out-of-the-saddle
sprints would cause quite a bit of chain noise, whereas the same type
of sprint on my Sam is super quiet. Oddly enough, I was running 28mm
tires (80psi) on the LHT and am currently running 32mm tires (60psi)
on my Sam--and my Sam is still sportier/sprightlier.

I'd recommend that the OP just spend more time saving until budget
ceases to be an issue and spring for the San Marcos.....or just get a
Sam because of the added versatility of additional braze-ons, more
clearance, and prettier fork curve.

On Feb 17, 11:39 am, James <jamesdanielosbo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> She is built, and rode her to work this morning.  The ride was as
> beautiful as she is.
>

> https://picasaweb.google.com/JamesDanielOsborne/SomaSanMarcos?authuse...

[jimD]

That's a beautiful bike. Color's great, lots a nifty lugs.
-JImD

[trek610]

Very pretty build - I like way it has turned out.  Very tasteful selection in components.

Any thoughts on the ride VS the LHT?  

[trek610]

Thanks Tony - I appreciate the advice.

[Peter Pesce]

Love the color!
I for one appreciate the look of the rear rack parallel to the top tubes! :-p

[cyclotourist]

Question: is there a truly budget minded bike that compares to a
Rivendell? Something tig welded but lively and clearance for fat
tires? It would be great if Grant could work with someone (Kona,
Surly, Voodoo???) to come up with a made in Taiwan scorcher country
bike.
Tigged, powdercoated, traditional top tube (non-compact/expanded
frame), tall headtube with threadless stem, spot on clearance for 57mm
brakes, 430mm or so stays, $500. That's what the world needs.

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Redlands, CA

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America that’s the America millions of Americans believe in. That’s
the America I love.”

[Peter Morgano]

Then you get into a whole "diluting the brand" argument where as Rivendell stands for high end lugged bikes if they just went and made tig welded bikes threadless stems how would they be any different from Surly et al? I just dont think someone as small as Riv could stay in business selling such cheap bikes without the huge volume of the other major brands.  It is a boutique bike seller and that is how they and frankly I like it. Just my 2 cents.

[Jay in Tel Aviv]

I would think that the new (2011) Salsa Casseroll fits that
description quite well,
albeit with cantis, which to my mind are a perfectly fine solution.

I went back and forth for a while between that and the Sam I ended up
getting this summer.
FWIW the decision came down to Riv being able to confidently recommend
what size to get, which Salsa couldn't. I was ordering remotely on a
tight schedule so that ended up being the critical factor for me.
Pretty sure the Salsa would have done the job almost as well for a lot
less $.



Jay

On Feb 18, 6:28 pm, cyclotourist <cyclotour...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Question: is there a truly budget minded bike that compares to a
> Rivendell? Something tig welded but lively and clearance for fat
> tires? It would be great if Grant could work with someone (Kona,
> Surly, Voodoo???) to come up with a made in Taiwan scorcher country
> bike.
> Tigged, powdercoated, traditional top tube (non-compact/expanded
> frame), tall headtube with threadless stem, spot on clearance for 57mm
> brakes, 430mm or so stays, $500. That's what the world needs.
>

[cyclotourist]

Peter M: Yeah, I get that, and don't think that's the answer. I'm not
looking for a low-end Rivendell, but an other brand that has the
qualities of a Riv but for around $500. Springy steel (not light
touring) tig w/ all the Riv features (as above). I don't need a $2, $3
or $4,000 bike, but one for around $1K or a $500 frameset would be
awesome to have. I'd buy that but I'm not going to buy a new Soma bike
or a Sam. Those are too nice and too much $$$ for what I'm thinking
of. Something to compete w/ the 80's Trek, Univegas, Nishikis, etc
that started this conversation. Why get an old bike, powdercoat it,
put money into rebuilding it w/ modern parts and still not have it fit
the tire you want and then worry about the head tube or BB cracking.
Something off the shelf that does everything I/we need it to at a
Surly/Salsa price.

Jay in TA: Yes, that's definitely the closest out there, but not quite
it. Something between that and a Surly Pacer. No cantis, and with
vertical drop outs. If Salsa did that, I'd have a new bike! See,
they're almost there, but not quite. The previous Casseroll was more
like it, but it had that ugly fork and too slopey of a TT. But I could
get over those and would prefer them to cantis/horizontal. I'm semi-on
the look out for one as it is.

/rant

[Stonehog]

Take a look at Rawland. Frames are around $700, but they fit wide tires, use light steel tubing, and are built for comfort. You may be able to get them on special occasionally in the $500 range, too.

Mobile Brian Hanson

[cyclotourist]

I always considered them to by chunky mountain bikey, sort of like a
650b Karate Monkey. Will give 'em a look!

[David Yu Greenblatt]

The Rawland rSogn (650B) is quite different from any Surly.
http://www.rawlandcycles.com/store/index.php?strWebAction=item_detail&intItemID=3953
With 8/5/8 standard-diameter tubing I think the frame is lighter and
flexier than most other production steel bikes including Rivs.
They are also coming out with a 700C bike this year, also with
lightweight standard-diameter tubing and low trail geometry.

- David

>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> David
>>>>> Redlands, CA

[cyclotourist]

Their only product I'm familiar is the cSogn. It seemed a great bike,
but kind of burly.

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Redlands, CA

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[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

IMO my Surly Cross-Check is the functional and ride-quality equivalent of the Atlantis I owned for several years. The LHT is often compared to the Atlantis, but the LHT is actually quite a bit stiffer/sturdier feeling to me. The Cross-check is closer to the budget Atlantis. Then I suppose the Pacer is the nearest Rambouillet equivalent.

[cyclotourist]

I've never met anyone who spoke poorly of their Surly! A Surly Pacer
is also a bike that's almost there, but not quite. I guess what I'm
visualizing is a Taiwanese tig welded, powder coated Roadeo (zippy
country bike, 57mm brakes) with <$600 Surly/Salsa/SOMA pricing. The
SOMA San Marcos more like it, but tig it, (single) level top tube,
1/18 threadless stem. I wish someone would work with Grant to get a
bike like that in regular production. Maybe there isn't a market for
it, but seems to me like it would be the perfect bike!

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[Peter Morgano]

Sorry to sound the wet blanket or speak for gp but not sure why he would be involved in a project like that for what would be most likely a loss of money when their are a few different companies discussed here who make something "almost" like what you are looking for.  unfortunately almost is as close as we can get, I wanted a 650b Atlantis with center pull brakes but alas it was not meant to be.

[Beth H]

Refurb. You've got the clearance, cold-setting is not traumatic if you
do it carefully (and don't overstep your bounds -- i.e., don't spread
a 6-speed frame to a 10), and the Trek is a solid frame. My vote is
for bringing back the Trek. --Beth in PDX

[cyclotourist]

It's the internet: Al Gore* designed it for rampant speculation &
hyperbole!!! But there a precedent of GP working with other companies
to design bikes. The San Marcos with SOMA is the perfect example,
Bleriot with QBP is another. Soooo, I am rampantly speculating &
hyperbolizing my desires for the "perfect" bike. I will call it The
Homer.

*Please people, that is a joke. I am well aware that the late Sen.
Stevens designed the system of tubes.

[Earl Grey]

Albeit with cantis, and low trail fork, the Rawland rSogn fits the
bill as well, though it now retails for $725. It started at just over
$500, and there has been at least one sale, I think.

http://www.rawlandcycles.com/store/index.php?strWebAction=item_detail&intItemID=3953

I got one to complement my Sam Hillborne, which is now set up for
commuting and kid hauling. Aesthetically, the Sam's the winner, but in
terms of versatility and sprightliness, the rSogn nudges ahead
(thinner tubing, and fits 58mm knobbies, and I like the low trail for
running a handlebar bag and still being able to peel oranges on the
go).

http://www.flickr.com/photos/gernothuber/6892390267/in/pool-71875606@N00/

Cheers,

Gernot
Thailand

[cyclotourist]

LOVE the tire clearance on that bike. Low trail is kind of a turn off
though. The price is sure right though. Looks like the San Marcos is
selling for near that price though, I'd rather have that.

[Seth Vidal]

On Sun, Feb 19, 2012 at 10:52 AM, cyclotourist <cyclot...@gmail.com> wrote:
> LOVE the tire clearance on that bike. Low trail is kind of a turn off
> though. The price is sure right though. Looks like the San Marcos is
> selling for near that price though, I'd rather have that.
>

What about something like a handsome cycle's devil or if you're happy
with 26" wheels and XOXO.

-sv

[cyclotourist]

Don't know anything about them, but would want 700C

[cyclotourist]

A quick looks shows horizontal dropouts and cantis... basically a
Cross Check, but GREAT price!

On 2/19/12, Seth Vidal <skv...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Seth Vidal]

On Sun, Feb 19, 2012 at 11:17 AM, cyclotourist <cyclot...@gmail.com> wrote:
> A quick looks shows horizontal dropouts and cantis... basically a
> Cross Check, but GREAT price!
>

Right before xmas they had them on a serious sale at 20% off. I
resisted buying one.

-sv

[cyclotourist]

That's give-away pricing! I could deal with cantis/horizontal for that price!

On 2/19/12, Seth Vidal <skv...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Steve Palincsar]

On Sun, 2012-02-19 at 07:52 -0800, cyclotourist wrote:
> Low trail is kind of a turn off though.

Why?

[cyclotourist]

I don't need any of it's benefits (front load/stability) and I ride
too much on dirt trails/singletrack where high trail shines.

[Seth Vidal]

On Sun, Feb 19, 2012 at 11:24 AM, cyclotourist <cyclot...@gmail.com> wrote:
> That's give-away pricing! I could deal with cantis/horizontal for that price!
>

It was iirc $330 for the complete frame/fork.

There's a number of nice builds of them here:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/26117248@N03/

I agree with you about the horizontal dropouts - I'd rather have
vertical dropouts like on all the rest of my bikes. Makes fendering
and wheel centering so much simpler,imo.

-sv

[James Warren]

Make sure it has a cup-holder that can fit MY drink.

James Warren

jimcw...@earthlink.net

- Remember, my friends, it is better to feel fast than to be fast.

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

Grant certainly doesn't need to work with anybody for David's econodreambike to come to fruition. Grant's involvement would be good for marketing and publicity, but lots of bike guys and gals have the design chops to pull it off without his help. I agree that a tigged and threadless Roadeo/Hilsen knockoff could be a good seller if done well and marketed smartly.

[Philip Williamson]

The Singular Cycles offerings are almost there, but maybe too similar
to the Soma? The Kite 'cross bike is tigged, 1 1/8" threadless, with
cantis. Most of the road bikes are lugged, though. My favorite
Singular is the Gryphon, which is nothing like you describe. It's more
of a rolling-up of all my bikes into one Cunningham-inspired unit.
http://www.singularcycles.com/
http://theprairiepeddler.blogspot.com/

Philip

Philip Williamson
www.biketinker.com

On Feb 19, 8:32 am, cyclotourist <cyclotour...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I don't need any of it's benefits (front load/stability) and I ride
> too much on dirt trails/singletrack where high trail shines.
>

[cyclotourist]

Ohhh, nice. Didn't think about that... their 60cm Osprey is just about
spot on if it can fit 35mm tires (tyres!).

Mike S had a Gryphon for a minute. If I ever decide to build up a drop
bar 29er, that is pretty much the bike I'll get!

Jim, you're 100% correct. GP isn't the only that can design a bike,
but 100% of his bikes are bikes I would want to buy! :-) I would love
to see him work someone to get a Rivendell-esque tigged bike on the
market.

[Toshi Takeuchi]

I have a Pacer and a recently built up a Ram. The Ram is livelier in
handling than the Pacer, but the Pacer is a fine bike. It doesn't
handle tires as wide as the Ram, and nowadays with the terrible roads
in the area (in Oakland--where one cyclist died flying over a crack
into oncoming traffic), I make it a point to use as wide as I can go
for comfort and safety.

I think there is a market for a lively road bike that can use wide
tires. The Pacer, Casseroll, Smoothie are all in the right direction,
but they can go even wider.

A few hundred dollars in the frame is not a justification for me to
get a different frame--especially when the different frame doesn't
give you what you want... I would rather wait and buy the frame that
really works than pay a little less and get something inferior and
wish you had something else for as long as you put up with the
inferior bike...

Toshi

On Sat, Feb 18, 2012 at 8:40 PM, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery
<thil...@gmail.com> wrote:
> IMO my Surly Cross-Check is the functional and ride-quality equivalent of the Atlantis I owned for several years. The LHT is often compared to the Atlantis, but the LHT is actually quite a bit stiffer/sturdier feeling to me. The Cross-check is closer to the budget Atlantis. Then I suppose the Pacer is the nearest Rambouillet equivalent.
>

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[John Speare]

I agree. There's no black magic here.

And the econodreambike has kind of been done -- with the exception of the marketing part.

Kogswell Model D was a Taiwanese-tig welded, direct copy of the Rambo. I don't know the Riv models that well, but I'd be willing to bet that the Rambo is pretty much geometrically indistinguishable, where it counts anyway, to Roadeo/Hilson.

John Speare
Spokane, WA
http://cyclingspokane.blogspot.com

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[James]

Phew, back before this thread got hijacked :)....the rear rack. The
one thing that I don't love about my build. Yes, it's not parallel.
Here's why:

Partially because I am lazy. The rear rack (like the front rack) is
bolted to the fender, which means I had to drill the fender. I
drilled the fender well, but the tangs that attach the rack at the
dropout have 2 mounting holes. The bottom one put the rack too far
from the fender, the upper hole didn't leave room for the fender. If
I had a drill press I would have put a third hole in the middle (there
is room), but I don't. So the rack is sitting higher than it should,
and because of the angle of the threads on the rack, I could only get
one bolt connected, and the angle of the rack isn't quite right.

It's my bike and I am dealing just fine with it. I know it's not
aesthetically perfect, but she rides just fine.

Re: compared to the LHT - she is just what I expected. More
sprightly, better out of the saddle, and possibly even more
comfortable. That could be a number of things (Panaracer TG's vs.
Marathons on the LHT for example) but so far I am loving this bike.
Thanks for playing folks!

On Feb 18, 7:39 am, Peter Pesce <petepe...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Love the color!
> I for one appreciate the look of the rear rack parallel to the top tubes! :-p

[Steven Frederick]

Hi, I'm Steve. B-)

I had a Crosscheck--thought it was a slug. I sold it.