Cross chaining questions

[PATRICK MOORE]

An anxious, fretful question to keep me busy when I could be more profitably occupied; as much a cry for comfort and reassurance as for information. Having ridden fixed/ss so much I have developed the ancient British horror of chain misalignment. My Fargo and trikes have drivetrains set up so that I cruise in the big ring with the chain pretty damn' straight back to the cruising cog, the 20 with the BAs and the 18 with the Kojaks. Most of my riding by far with both wheelsets does not take the chain beyond the 2nd or the 5th cog and I really stay mostly in the 3d, 4th and 5th, so this question is all the more absurd, but even so:

1. Is there any harm in riding the 46 up to cog #7? Note that this hub is an 8/9 speed hub with extra spacers behind the big cogs. There is plenty of chain and the derailleur cage is just for'ard of vertical when in the big cog -- ie, nothing is really stretched -- I deliberately added extra slack for this.

2. Can I use the 36 with cog #1?

BIG APPLES					KOJAKS
	46	36	24			46	36	24
16	83	65			15	83	65
18	74	58			17	73	57
20	67	52			18	69	54
22	61	47	32		19	65	51	34
26	51	40	27		21	59	46	31
30	44	35	23		24	52	41	27
34	39	31	20		29	43	34	22

I am still debating whether one of these has any real advantage for me: 

		36	24				38	24
	11	88				12	92
	12	81				13	85
	13	75				14	79
	14	69				16	69
	16	61				17	65
	19	51	34			20	55	35
	23	44	28			24	46	29
	29	35	23			28	39	25
	34	30	20			36	31	19

Don't wait up for me: I have been a gear nerd, freak, obsessive, fanatic for over 20 years despite fixed gear riding and I love the subject. Frank Berto has nothing on me.

Patrick Moore, who does actually ride his bikes and just had a wonderfully pleasant and fast 20 mile dirt ride (flat) on the Fargo in the 46X20.

--

-------------------------
Patrick Moore, Albuquerque, NM
For professional resumes, contact Patrick Moore, ACRW
http://resumespecialties.com/index.html
-------------------------

A billion stars go spinning through the night
Blazing high above your head;
But in you is the Presence that will be
When all the stars are dead.

Ranier Maria Rilke, Buddha in Glory

[Michael Hechmer]

On Saturday, April 21, 2012 9:28:47 PM UTC-4, Patrick Moore wrote:

An anxious, fretful question to keep me busy when I could be more profitably occupied; as much a cry for comfort and reassurance as for information. Having ridden fixed/ss so much I have developed the ancient British horror of chain misalignment. My Fargo and trikes have drivetrains set up so that I cruise in the big ring with the chain pretty damn' straight back to the cruising cog, the 20 with the BAs and the 18 with the Kojaks. Most of my riding by far with both wheelsets does not take the chain beyond the 2nd or the 5th cog and I really stay mostly in the 3d, 4th and 5th, so this question is all the more absurd, but even so:

1. Is there any harm in riding the 46 up to cog #7? Note that this hub is an 8/9 speed hub with extra spacers behind the big cogs. There is plenty of chain and the derailleur cage is just for'ard of vertical when in the big cog -- ie, nothing is really stretched -- I deliberately added extra slack for this.

Not such a good idea, since the chain angle increases friction and wear on the chain, rings and cogs.  Besides, If you drop from the 46x22 down to the 36 you will get the next gear, a better gear spacing, and a straighter chain line all the way down to 31.

2. Can I use the 36 with cog #1?

Why not?  It will work OK, but if you're going to be there for a long time, the 46x20 will be a little better. 

The 12 will last longer than the 11 and you have more useful gears off the 24 than you are showing.  You will need a short cage FD, like the campy, to make this work without running the derailler into the chain stay, and still be close enough to a 38 to shift smoothly. 

[PATRICK MOORE]

Thanks, Michael -- more questions below.

I should have been clearer that all of this rigmarole and these questions are premised on the desire to shift between rings as little as possible. Obviously, swapping out the 46/36/24 triple to a, say, 38/24 double would help greatly, but OTOH, the current triple has its own advantages, not the least of which it is already in place. The the question about using as many cogs as possible with the 46 and the 36.

On Sat, Apr 21, 2012 at 8:39 PM, Michael Hechmer <mhec...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Saturday, April 21, 2012 9:28:47 PM UTC-4, Patrick Moore wrote:

1. Is there any harm in riding the 46 up to cog #7? Note that this hub is an 8/9 speed hub with extra spacers behind the big cogs. There is plenty of chain and the derailleur cage is just for'ard of vertical when in the big cog -- ie, nothing is really stretched -- I deliberately added extra slack for this.

Not such a good idea, since the chain angle increases friction and wear on the chain, rings and cogs.  Besides, If you drop from the 46x22 down to the 36 you will get the next gear, a better gear spacing, and a straighter chain line all the way down to 31.

Is this because of the inward position of #7, or because of its size? Note again that the 34 (or the 29) is in effect the third ring from the inside since I installed only 7 cogs out of a possible 9. Once again, there is plenty of chain slack. Second opinion, then, about the 46/34?

2. Can I use the 36 with cog #1?

Why not?  It will work OK, but if you're going to be there for a long time, the 46x20 will be a little better. 

Good to know. Most of my dirt riding is in our river valley bosque which is pancake flat except for the occasional steep, short grunt up onto a levee, so the 46 provides ample range (this is the context for that "46/34" question). But if I ride in dirt in hillier terrain -- say in Rio Rancho's sand hills and in the east mountain foothills -- the range on the 36 will be very desirable.  

If I do switch to a double, it will very likely be with a 38 and a small cog of 12. I'll have to play with the current (LX?) fd. For one thing, the whole point of this exercise is to decrease fd shifting; second, I intend to install a bash guard in the outer position; and third, I rarely use the granny in the conditions I ride in: the hills are short enough that I stand and grunt or, if sand is involved on hill or flat and I can't power through it in a 50- or 60- something gear, it is usually too deep to allow shifting into the granny: by the time I manage the shift, I've bogged and fall over. (So to speak.) Also, I am sure I will be grateful for it if I ever tour.

Fun stuff, this gearing nonsense! If I bore y'all with it, enter a subscription to collect enough to buy me a nice ss 29er. 

 

Don't wait up for me: I have been a gear nerd, freak, obsessive, fanatic for over 20 years despite fixed gear riding and I love the subject. Frank Berto has nothing on me.

Patrick Moore, who does actually ride his bikes and just had a wonderfully pleasant and fast 20 mile dirt ride (flat) on the Fargo in the 46X20.

--

-------------------------
Patrick Moore, Albuquerque, NM
For professional resumes, contact Patrick Moore, ACRW
http://resumespecialties.com/index.html
-------------------------

A billion stars go spinning through the night
Blazing high above your head;
But in you is the Presence that will be
When all the stars are dead.

Ranier Maria Rilke, Buddha in Glory

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[Bruce Herbitter]

I go one shy of the extreme when using the inner or outer rings. I use all the cogs from the middle ring. With a 40 or 42 middle, I often don't ever need the others.  A 36 (came stock on the Ram) is too small for general purpose riding for me). I generally run something like a 12 - 32 range in back. It varies from bike to bike.

[PATRICK MOORE]

Thanks. But if the 34 is in the #7 position out of nine, with looong stays and (probably) at least half of the spacers 9 speed, does that count as "two shy"?

OR is the issue the size of the cog? IOW, "one shy" only if the cog has fewer than N teeth?

Patrick "also worrying whether to buy a disk rotor truing fork or just use a small, quality adjustable crescent wrench" Moore

[Michael Hechmer]

What FD are you using?  I certainly appreciate your desire to minimize front shifts.  I switched back to a 44/30 double with the expectation I could reduce them, and I certainly have.  But I also found that my 105 derailler wouldn't work across such a small front and so switched to the Campy, and as a result got such excellent front shifting that I no longer give it much thought.  Instead I pay more attention to front shifts in the middle of the cassettes and having a nice straight chain line.   I have also found that having a difference of 10 teeth is optimal, because it produces a simple shifting pattern - after shifting rings I am always one cog from the next gear.  But this combo lacks range and so only really works well in a triple.  Experimentation has taught me that a difference of twelve leaves me between gears and sixteen not only creates a very slow upshift but also requires searching for the next gear in the back.  A difference of 14 seems to be a nice compromise, with a decent front shift and two clicks in the back to the next gear.  Often, in rolling terrain, that front shift gives me exactly the gear I want.

Michael

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[PATRICK MOORE]

I think it's a LX. My principal idea is to get:

1. sufficient range on one ring for a given category of riding; example, stay on the big for all pavement riding.

2. Straight or straight-ish chain in most used gears.

3. As few overlaps as possible, all else equal.

4. All else equal, larger rings and cogs.

Note that, from being a very particular shifter 15+ years ago, I now pretty much leave it in one gear or a very narrow range until I bog, then shift with big jumps.

Looking more closely at the 38 or 36 X 24, I discover more problems; for example, to get # 2 in the outer would require an excessive collection of close smaller cogs leaving you too few for a good progression in the large cogs. (I realize that this is all very particular.)

OTOH, while for most of my present riding, I can usually leave it in the 46 until sand, hills require some time in the 36 (again, I keep the 24 for the putatively possible loaded tour), the shifts between the mid 50s and lower gears require a chainring shift: again, so far, not a real issue, but theoretically the wide range 9 sp double would give me this range plus the higher on one ring.

OTOH again, given the desire to put the cruising gears in the straight-chain position with the current triple, there is no point in adding additional cogs to the 7 now installed.

Confession: I realized long ago that all of this is largely self-imposed idiosyncratics and that the easy solution is, "Shut-the-F-up-and-ride-the-damn'-bike!". But I do like to think about gearing. 

Upshot at this point: stick with the 3X7. Or go ss.

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[PATRICK MOORE]

Also: looking at the stock XT 11-34 (IIRC, 11-13-15-17-20-23-26-30-34) for use with a 38/36 X 24, the jumps are just too big in the 70's for my taste in cruising gears which runs (depending on terrain and tire) something like 75-70-65-60 for road and 70-65-60-55 for dirt.

Oh well, all of this did provoke me to search out and find three, four or five nice, used 7/8 sp cassettes for cannibalizing for a total cost of $5 and some pro-rata Red Hook. 

[BCDrums]

Michael,

Which Campy front derailleur are you using?

BC

> > On Sat, Apr 21, 2012 at 8:39 PM, Michael Hechmer <mhech...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> >> On Saturday, April 21, 2012 9:28:47 PM UTC-4, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> >>> 1. Is there any harm in riding the 46 up to cog #7? Note that this hub
> >>> is an 8/9 speed hub with extra spacers behind the big cogs. There is plenty
> >>> of chain and the derailleur cage is just for'ard of vertical when in the
> >>> big cog -- ie, nothing is really stretched -- I deliberately added extra
> >>> slack for this.
>
> >>> Not such a good idea, since the chain angle increases friction and wear
> >> on the chain, rings and cogs.  Besides, If you drop from the 46x22 down to
> >> the 36 you will get the next gear, a better gear spacing, and a straighter
> >> chain line all the way down to 31.
>
> > Is this because of the inward position of #7, or because of its size? Note
> > again that the 34 (or the 29) is in effect the third ring from the inside
> > since I installed only 7 cogs out of a possible 9. Once again, there is
> > plenty of chain slack. Second opinion, then, about the 46/34?
>
> >> 2. Can I use the 36 with cog #1?
>
> >>> Why not?  It will work OK, but if you're going to be there for a long
> >> time, the 46x20 will be a little better.
>
> > Good to know. Most of my dirt riding is in our river valley bosque which
> > is pancake flat except for the occasional steep, short grunt up onto a
> > levee, so the 46 provides ample range (this is the context for that "46/34"
> > question). But if I ride in dirt in hillier terrain -- say in Rio Rancho's
> > sand hills and in the east mountain foothills -- the range on the 36 will
> > be very desirable.
>

> >>>   BIG APPLES KOJAKS  *46* 36 24  *46* 36 24  16 83 65  15 83 65  18 74
> >>> 58  17 73 57  *20* *67* 52  *18* *69* 54  22 61 47 32 19 65 51 34  26 51

> >>>http://resumespecialties.com/**index.html<http://resumespecialties.com/index.html>

> >>> -------------------------
>
> >>> A billion stars go spinning through the night
> >>> Blazing high above your head;
> >>> But in you is the Presence that will be
> >>> When all the stars are dead.
>
> >>> Ranier Maria Rilke, Buddha in Glory
>
> >>  --
> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> >> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
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[Eric Norris]

Can't answer for Michael, but in my experience I get better shifting performance on a compact crankset with a standard (Chorus, I think) front derailleur than with a Campy derailleur designed for compact cranks. Go figure.

Ditto for my PBP bike, which has a Velo Orange compact crankset (48T big ring) and a old Campy Nuovo Record derailleur mounted to a braze-on fitting ... with the result that there is a *ton* of clearance between the cage and the ring (about a half inch, and I can't move the derailleur any lower because of the braze-on). It shouldn't shift, but it does ... flawlessly.

--Eric N

[Michael Hechmer]

I just wrote a response to this but it did not appear, ???

I am using the Campy competition triple:

http://www.lickbike.com/productpage.php?PART_NUM_SUB='0356-35'

RBW used to carry them but seem to have stopped.  Why?  Maybe the price increase, I don't remember paying that much for them.  RBW has now replaced them with this shimano:

http://www.rivbike.com/product-p/d14.htm

As Eric wrote, typically front shifting deteriorates if the derailler is set to far above the big ring.  When you go down to a 46 or 44 as I have, you can expect better performance by moving to a derailler that can go lower around the ring without hitting the chain stay.

Michael

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