First-time bicycle assembly advice

[Michael Richters]

I'm about to embark on the adventure of putting together a bicycle for
the first time, and I find myself anticipating all manner of
difficulties arising from my lack of experience. I've got my
brand-new A Homer Hilsen and a large assortment of parts, doo-dads,
and associated accoutrements, and even most -- if not all -- of the
tools that I ought to need to put it all together, but before I begin,
I'd like to solicit some advice from the learned audience of this
mailing list.

My first dilemma is where to begin. Clearly, I have a few choices,
but it's not clear what unforseen surprises await me if I do things in
an order that it less than optimal. The only thing attached to the
frame so far is the headset (and front fork, of course). Perhaps the
best thing to start with would be the bottom bracket, then the cranks?
Or maybe there's a good reason to set up the stem and handlebar
first? Speaking of which, it seems nigh-impossible to get the brake
levers I've got onto the bar. If watched this video
(http://youtu.be/oEUm3VzF_Z0), but it seems the bar that I've chosen
(Grand Bois Randonneur) might have a larger diameter in the bend,
because even with the clamp loosened all the way (or, indeed,
separated completely from the brake levers), it's a very tight fit,
and it seems impossible to slide onto the bar without causing lots of
zig-zag scratches in the aluminum bar.

This brings me to another, more general question -- where and how much
grease to use. It doesn't seem like a great idea to grease the
aforementioned brake lever clamps, but maybe that's the only way to
get them in place. My inclination is to grease just about everything,
especially threads, but maybe there are a few places where lubrication
is a particularly bad idea, and everyone is just assumed to know about
it...

Here's hoping I don't destroy anything in this process; I'd rather
learn from the mistakes of others than by making my own, at least in
this case.

--MR

[Joe Bernard]

My general rule is start from the bottom and move up. Wheels, cranks/bb, derailers, brakes, then the cockpit. I try to save the handlebars for last to avoid errant swings into the toptube while I'm busy with other things, but this may not be an issue for you if you're using a proper repair stand. I don't have one.

 

A little grease to help the levers along is ok, IMO. You'll be able to get 'em good and tight once in place. I'd double check the specs for bar and levers first, though. You may be trying to fit MTB-spec levers on a road-spec bar.

 

Joe Bernard

Vallejo, CA.

[Joe Bernard]

Ok, I looked up the bars. Classic road shape so I'm sure you're mounting road levers. In my experience road levers always take some twisty action to get in place on the curve. A little grease or chain lube will help, but I wouldn't fret too much about light scratching. You obviously don't want deep gouges in aluminum, but a little surface scratching won't hurt anything, and it'll be covered by bar tape.

 

Speaking of gouges, don't screw the levers down so tight that they dig into the bar. I made this mistake many times in my early days. I never had a problem, but it wasn't necessary. Get 'em snug, then wrap the bars. Everything will stay in place. This goes for the front derailer, too. It doesn't need to be jammed into the seattube. Snug is good.

 

Let's see, what else? Bottom bracket. Pay attention to the threading, get the "long end" in first, snug it up to the shell hand tight. Do NOT use the BB tool to tighten. Now install the fixed cup on the other side with the tool. Tightening the fixed cup tightens the whole thing. I don't understand the physics of it, but that's how www.parktool.com says to do it. It works.

 

Joe Bernard

[Matthew J]

If your skills are anything on the level mine were the first couple of builds, be ready to accept a few dings or take it to your LBS!  More than once I got completely engrossed in the immediate task before me only to have one thing lead to another resulting in a paint gash before I even had a chance to ride.  Not the end of the world, but mighty depressing.

[Joe Bernard]

Matthew makes an excellent point. If you have another built bicycle around, take it apart and put it together. Twice. It's very easy when you're learning to bash the frame with slipped tools and such. If you don't have another bike, $100 on Craigslist will get you something you can work on. You can always resell it.

 

Joe Bernard

[Leslie]

This:  http://www.cyclofiend.com/Images/pdf/RR28_bikeassembly.pdf

:)

[cyclotourist]

All your plans so good so far. Assembling a bike is the best part IMHO!

As for for brake levers, you should be able to unbolt the clamp part, slide it on, then bolt the lever bodies back onto the clamp. I don't know if that works for brifters though.

This:  http://www.cyclofiend.com/Images/pdf/RR28_bikeassembly.pdf

:)

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[Joe Bernard]

The OP tried that and it was still very tight. Nevertheless, doing it that way is probably his best bet for the least scratching.

 

Joe Bernard

Vallejo, CA.

[cyclotourist]

Got it! :-)

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[lungimsam]

Let your personal safety come first in your build.

 

For instance:

Before grabbing a fistful of cable housing and installing it;

Make sure you are using only brake cable housing (and not shifter cable housing by accident) for the brake cables/system.

If you know for sure the difference which housing is which, read no further.

If not sure, check with your LBS that you are using the right housings for the right thing. 

 

This is a safety issue.

[lungimsam]

Brake mounting tip:

For safety, try to get at least 5 1/2 turns on the threaded, allen head mounting nut when you mount the brakes to the frame. If the threaded nut is too short, go to your local LBS and ask if they have a longer one that will enable you to get enough turns on it. I think I got 6 turns on the rear brake, and 8 on the front brake.

My LBS had one. You might not even have to pay for it. They may just trade ya.

[lungimsam]

Handlebar mounting tip:

If you cannot get the handlebar through the stem clamp to mount it easily:

 

Use a small bolt and a nut to open up the stem clamp just wide enough to slide in the bars so they don't get scratched on the way.

 

1. Put small bolt into the clamp screw hole.

2. Put a nut in between clamp pinch points.

3. Thread screw into nut until the screw makes contact with the inside of the clamp.

3. Tighten screw to push open the clamp enough so you can slide the bars right in.

 

This is a great way to get the clamp open enough to get the bars in beyond those bar sleeves so you don't scratch 'em.

[pb]

Michael,

 

You don't mention how well-equipped with tools you may be.

 

Bicycle assembly is not "difficult", and modern parts go together surprisingly easily, but there still are a few tricks, and a few opportunities for knowlege and discipline and care.  Can you find someone locally who is truly knowledgeable, who might build/help build the bike for you, pointing out the moments when experience is leading him or her to do things in a certain, methodical way?  If a few grains of experience and wisdom are passed on, you will remember and enjoy them each time you go through the process in the future.

 

If you need to pay for such help, perhaps keep in mind that it's easy to cut the cables too short, or to screw up the chain, and the cost of replacing those two items would go a long way toward covering the expense of the teacher.  

 

Or not.  :-)

 

Peter

(grateful he was taught by good mechanics)

[PATRICK MOORE]

Late to the party, but anyway! I learned how to build bikes by jumping in headfirst and making all the mistakes possible before I was 18. And I was ambitious: had a project for a while, circa age 17, 1972, to build a recumbent out of a section of heavy irrigation tubing for the backbone (we lived in the middle of a large coffee plantation and the pipe was left lying around just waiting to be liberated). My father squashed that project. But I did build my first ss circa 1971 only to find no brake would fit (new Indian made roadster frame, donated flip flop 700c rear, Westwood, 24" front wheel stolen from my brother's kiddie bike. Principal tools -- not kidding -- were vice grips, pipe wrench, crudely cast, Indian-made, single-hole paper punch for pliers, and bb lockring adjustment and chain dis- and re-assembly using a nail and hammer. It's awkward but can be done. I've used the hammer-and-punch system even recently on the trike where I couldn't get a good approach with my VAR lockring pliers. Braking at first accomplished (hilly terrain, traffic) with the Ked-between-for-blade ploy, leaving deep grooves in the sole of the right shoe; later with a scavenged, flea market coaster that, with the 50/16 or so gearing, registered either "on" or "off". Sold that bike for KS 150, which was just a slight loss and worth, at the time, about $25.

Next project, also circa 1972, was to tear down, strip and repaint a late '60s Varsity and replace the drive train with a hacked 2-sprocket AW and a pushrod Benelux rd. Spray painted it (was this before the days of rattlecans, or had they not yet turned up in Nairobi, or did I just not find them?) gloss black with oil-based enamel in a Flit insect spray gun and hand-added gold pin striping. Classy bike with whitewalls, aluminum fenders and home-made brass head badge; also sold, for some KS 400 or so, IIRC. It was only after these two experiments that I got my first real 10 speed, a hotted up Raleigh Sprite with Brooks saddle, Simplex Prestige (Delrin -- gave me no problem, but then I didn't shift much), cottered, riveted 44/48 crankset half stepping a 14-28 (tho' I didn't know about halfstepping and simply shifted it -- when I did -- as a crossover; and Weinmann Raleigh Approved centerpulls.

I also successfully disassembled and reassembled coaster brakes and the SA AW for the Varsity project.

I think it is easier if you start by disassembly, carefully keeping the parts sequence in view. Googling "bicycle assembly" there are all sorts of videos available. 

  --MR

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-------------------------
Patrick Moore, Albuquerque, NM, USA
For professional resumes, contact Patrick Moore, ACRW
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[jimD]

What comes to mind in reading this:

'Tools? We don't need no stinking tools!'

The India episode gets my vote for the Bike Hacking Extraordinaire medal.

-JimD

[David Strother]

"Or" I bought a wedge thing from Sears that's perfect for that.  It's made out of hard plastic, looks like a door stop, is yellow and you can find it in the tool department.  I don't know what it's really supposed to be for but it's perfect for spreading the stem clamp apart so the bars will slide through.  Won't scratch the stem or the bars.  The wedge is flat on the big end so you can easily hit it with a hammer (I use a rubber one) and drive it into the stem space as far as you want.

David Strother
Oklahoma City

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[Michael Richters]

On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 8:38 PM, cyclotourist <cyclot...@gmail.com> wrote:
> As for for brake levers, you should be able to unbolt the clamp part, slide
> it on, then bolt the lever bodies back onto the clamp. I don't know if that
> works for brifters though.

All the tidbits I've read on installing brake levers have either
ignored this possibility or forbidden separating the clamp completely
from the body of the brake lever, so I was not sure if there was some
non-obvious reason not to do it that way (the obvious reason being
that it might be hard to seat the bolt in the nut, or one might
cross-thread it). I'm still left with the smaller problem of making
small adjustments so that the two levers are positioned at the same
height, which doesn't seem practical to do with just the clamps. Of
course, now that I think about it, I'm not really certain where I want
them on the curve of the bar, or, for that matter, whether or not I
want the aero levers -- I've got one of each type (aero and non-),
both of which have clamps too tight to just slip on.

My consolation in this difficulty is that I can be quite sure that
pressure will be evenly distributed around the bar by the clamp...

--MR

[Joe Bernard]

You'll get the clamps on, then once the lever-bolts have started threading you can adjust the lever location by wiggling it around a bit. But before you do that I think you should call the supplier of your bars and tell them your problem. The fact that you're having the same issue with two sets of levers tells me you have a slightly oversized hadlebar.

 

Joe Bernard

Vallejo, CA.

[Peter Morgano]

If you are going to just wrap and shellac them then there is really no issue with scratches. I like the VO leather wrap, its like an expensive steering wheel, and at 45 bucks a good deal. Takes a good night to do but I like it.

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[Jeremy Till]

I can say that as a long-time amateur mechanic recently turned pro, one of the best investments you can make at this point is a nice, stable workstand for the bike.  Park makes decent consumer stands starting from $200 or so.  That'll go a long ways towards giving you easy access to all parts of the bicycle, and provide a strong, stable mount against which to torque down things like bottom brackets, cranks, etc, which in turn will reduce the risk of paint chips and busted knuckles. 

Using a workstand determines the order in which the build goes.  I usually start by prepping the seattube, binder, and seatpost, since that is what you will use to hang the bike in the stand. Sometimes I use a long dummy post for purposes of clamping in the stand (an old kalloy post with a stripped head).  Hanging the frame/fork in the stand, my order would then be:

-bottom bracket
-cranks
-pedals
-install derailleurs and brakes on frame
-bar/stem/brake levers/shift levers
-wheels on frame (assuming cassette/FW already installed on rear wheel, and tires installed and inflated)
-cut chain to length, install
-run cables/housing, adjust derailleurs and brakes
-trim cables

Then you can take it out of the stand, install the final seat and seatpost, and do a final check over to make sure things like the stem is on straight and the handlebars are where you want them, there's no play in the headset under load, etc.  Ride a few times without tape to make sure the brake levers are where you want them to be. 

Grease is needed on major metal-to-metal contact points to prevent creaking and rust/oxidation.  So: definitely on the seatpost and stem where they enter the seattube and fork.  Also, grease basically any threaded interface, especially high-stress ones like stem bolts, seat tube binder, seatpost clamp, crank bolts.  Smaller stuff like cable pinch bolts I usually don't bother with grease.  However, people don't generally grease things like the stem-bar interface, since that can lead to slipping, although I have heard of resorting to just a little bit of grease if that area is creaking. 

It's an area of debate but with square taper cranksets, i usually pass a greasy finger over the bottom bracket tapers before installing the cranks; i find it helps them seat better. 

Good luck!

[Jim Mather]

RBW chases/faces the BB and framesaves it before they send it out, so don't worry about those steps.

On Wed, Sep 5, 2012 at 2:08 PM, Bill <bion...@gmail.com> wrote:

the very first step is to have the bb shell faced & chased as well as headtube faced. while you're at it, have insides framesaved and headset installed. Just take the frame to a bike shop or bike co-op. you can do the rest.

[Manuel Acosta]

Don't forget the most important thing! A nicknack that is either tied or twined on your bike somehow. Make it something meaningful. I got a mini wooden Sasquatch that I named Robert. Robert from Knot Only A Bear in Oregon made it for me. Said he was the smallest Sasquatch ever!

Picture proved that Robert made it.

http://flic.kr/p/cUAWAE

[Zack]

i could be wrong, but i don't think that Riv framesaves frames if you don't get a complete bike - i think i read that they don't do it because the framesaver leaks all over the bike packing stuff.  

easy enough to double-check that though, just wouldn't want you to think it had happened if it didn't.

[Michael Richters]

On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 10:41 PM, Zack <zac...@gmail.com> wrote:
> i could be wrong, but i don't think that Riv framesaves frames if you don't
> get a complete bike - i think i read that they don't do it because the
> framesaver leaks all over the bike packing stuff.

It's been a while since I ordered the frame, but I'm pretty sure I
asked about this, and that's what they said. Nevertheless, I have a
can of Boeshield somewhere, and intend to use it before I get started
on assembly.

[Michael Richters]

I was wondering about this, since it's basically the only thing I have
no tools for (and wouldn't seriously consider buying myself). Since
the headset is already installed (by Rivendell) and I was planning on
leaving it that way, unless some sort of problem develops, I was
mostly concerned about the bottom bracket shell. If RBW has done it
already, I'm certainly willing to trust them to do a better job of it
than anybody near home, so I guess I'll just assume it's good, and
only get it chased after I accidentally cross-thread the bottom
bracket.

[Michael Richters]

I've finally got a little time to spend putting my new A Homer Hilsen
together (thanks to everyone for your advice). So far, I've run into
two little problems:

First, the rear dropout spacing is not 135mm as advertised, but 132mm.
I have a rear wheel built with a 135mm hub, and if I use a lot of
force, I can jam it in there, but that's not really an acceptable
solution. What's the best way to fix it?

Second, I'm wondering about routing the shift cables (though I'm
nowhere near this point; I've only just rust-proofed the frame).
Should I go buy one of those plastic bottom bracket cable guides
(there appears to be a threaded hole in the bottom bracket shell for
this purpose, but one was not included with the frame), or is there a
better solution?

[Matthew J]

Michael: Rivendell spaces its bikes 132.5 intentionally to allow owners to choose between 130 and 135 hubs as needs dictate. It takes a little oomph to get the 135 mounted for sure. Nothing wrong with doing so. Will not hurt the bike or hub.

[James Warren]

Did the AHH change rear spacing? Mine is 135 mm, as we're all the original darker blue ones.


Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 15, 2012, at 5:00 AM, Matthew J <matth...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Michael: Rivendell spaces its bikes 132.5 intentionally to allow owners to choose between 130 and 135 hubs as needs dictate. It takes a little oomph to get the 135 mounted for sure. Nothing wrong with doing so. Will not hurt the bike or hub.
>

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[Matthew J]

I could be mixing it up with another Riv., but I believe my first batch Hilsen was 132.5.

[Leslie]

On Saturday, September 15, 2012 12:02:18 PM UTC-4, Matthew J wrote:

I could be mixing it up with another Riv., but I believe my first batch Hilsen was 132.5.  

Original plan for the Rambouillet was to be a 130 rear, but then RBW went 132.5 so that you could go either 130 or 135.  (I went 135 w/ XT hubs.)

The Hilsen is a bit stouter than the Ram, and I know it's more normal to think of it being 135; and yes, the site is saying 135;  but 132.5 makes sense for it, too;  it's not like being able to use a 130 on a AHH is bad.

Regardless, no worries, it's fine. 


Question:  what shifters are you using?  Both times, I bought boxed sets of Shimano 9-sp bar-end shifters, there's been a cable guide in the box.

 

[James Warren]

My second batch one was made at Waterford and is 135. The literature advertising the bike when it was new in 2007 said it would be 135 on the AHH, but that Rivendell also thought 132.5 could make a lot of sense.

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 15, 2012, at 9:02 AM, Matthew J <matth...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I could be mixing it up with another Riv., but I believe my first batch Hilsen was 132.5.
>

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[Michael Richters]

On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 7:00 AM, Matthew J <matth...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Michael: Rivendell spaces its bikes 132.5 intentionally to allow owners to choose between 130 and 135 hubs as needs dictate. It takes a little oomph to get the 135 mounted for sure. Nothing wrong with doing so. Will not hurt the bike or hub.

In this case, it's 132.1, measured where the paint is scraped down to
bare metal. And on their description of the A Homer Hilsen
(http://www.rivbike.com/product-p/f-hilsen.htm), it clearly says:

Rear dropout spacing: 135mm.

At least for my frame, this is not accurate. It takes far more than
"a little oomph" for me to get both ends of the hub into the dropouts.
I'm pretty sure that if I do it ten times, I will damage the bike (I
don't mean the dropouts; I expect it to fall and get a scratch or dent
someplace else) and/or injure myself at least once. I'd rather not
grease the dropouts, but I may not have any choice. Perhaps I should
get a file and remove some of the metal from the dropouts?

[Peter Morgano]

Any decent bike shop will have tools to spread it that small amount and realign dropouts. Cost me 40 bucks in nyc which is top of the market.

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[James Warren]

I would not file it. Maybe you should call Rivendell.

Is it possible that your frame was tweaked in transit somewhere? You should call them and not take my word on the following speculation which is that I'd be surprised if they let a frame get sold to a customer that is not 135 without telling the customer. Rivendell is consistently good about that kind of detail. It makes me wonder if something accidental happened somewhere with yours.

But still, if the frame's fully straight and aligned and rides well, 132.1 is a good dimension to have back there. To put in a 135 hub, you're only moving things 1.45 mm per side.


Sent from my iPhone

[James Warren]

Yes, that too. I had the rear of my QB (similar frame to AHH) respaced from 120 to 135. So far, so good (knock on wood.)

Sent from my iPhone

[Leslie]

On Saturday, September 15, 2012 10:09:21 AM UTC-4, Michael Richters wrote:

In this case, it's 132.1, measured where the paint is scraped down to
bare metal.  And on their description of the A Homer Hilsen
(http://www.rivbike.com/product-p/f-hilsen.htm), it clearly says:

    Rear dropout spacing: 135mm.

At least for my frame, this is not accurate.  It takes far more than
"a little oomph" for me to get both ends of the hub into the dropouts.
 I'm pretty sure that if I do it ten times, I will damage the bike (I
don't mean the dropouts; I expect it to fall and get a scratch or dent
someplace else) and/or injure myself at least once.  I'd rather not
grease the dropouts, but I may not have any choice.  Perhaps I should
get a file and remove some of the metal from the dropouts?

Don't file.    Bending it out by less than 3mm (about 1.5mm per side) is not a problem;  removing metal is.  

Look at how the rear triangle is made:  a pair of chainstay tubes from the bottom bracket shell coming back, a pair of seatstay tubes coming from the top of the seattube down; each side meeting on a dropout.   When W'ford built these, there's a jig that holds the tubing as the brazing is done;  yours just has a little snap that, out of the jig, it's a hair tighter.   It's not a problem.    You won't damage the frame putting a hub in there.   Given the length of the stays, to move out by less than 2mm each side over that length, is not bending them much at all;  that's why it snaps back, you're not bending it enough to pass the elastic point of the metal. 

Please, call Rivendell if you want;  get it straight from G, it's okay.  




 

[Matthew J]

Been a while since I had the Hilsen. Could be I am remembering a different Riv.

Filing the drop outs is much more likely to hurt than help. Even a seasoned metal worker would have difficulty filing the same amount off each side.

[Michael Richters]

On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 11:37 AM, Peter Morgano <uscpet...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Any decent bike shop will have tools to spread it that small amount and
> realign dropouts. Cost me 40 bucks in nyc which is top of the market.

Sure, any decent bike shop might. If only there were such a thing
anywhere near where I live...

I just called the two best bike shops in town, and one wouldn't give
me a price, the other said "50 bucks and up" for spreading the
dropouts. This is making me rather unhappy.

[Michael Richters]

On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 11:41 AM, James Warren <jimcw...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> I would not file it. Maybe you should call Rivendell.

I will. Unfortunately, Keven seems to be out for the next week and a half.

> Is it possible that your frame was tweaked in transit somewhere? You should call them and not take my word on the following speculation which is that I'd be surprised if they let a frame get sold to a customer that is not 135 without telling the customer. Rivendell is consistently good about that kind of detail. It makes me wonder if something accidental happened somewhere with yours.

Very doubtful that it was damaged in transit. The box was in good condition.

> But still, if the frame's fully straight and aligned and rides well, 132.1 is a good dimension to have back there. To put in a 135 hub, you're only moving things 1.45 mm per side.

I have no idea how it rides yet, because I haven't built it up yet.
When I jam the wheel in, it appears to be straight, but that's hardly
proof of anything. And I may be only moving things 1.45mm per side,
but that requires a tremendous effort on my part. With the front
wheel mounted and the dropouts lined up with the rear axle, I can lean
pretty hard on the frame and only one side of the axle will slide into
the dropout. I'm not very heavy, but this is just not acceptable.

[Michael Richters]

On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 12:09 PM, Leslie <leslie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Don't file. Bending it out by less than 3mm (about 1.5mm per side) is not
> a problem; removing metal is.
>
> Look at how the rear triangle is made: a pair of chainstay tubes from the
> bottom bracket shell coming back, a pair of seatstay tubes coming from the
> top of the seattube down; each side meeting on a dropout. When W'ford
> built these, there's a jig that holds the tubing as the brazing is done;
> yours just has a little snap that, out of the jig, it's a hair tighter.
> It's not a problem. You won't damage the frame putting a hub in there.
> Given the length of the stays, to move out by less than 2mm each side over
> that length, is not bending them much at all; that's why it snaps back,
> you're not bending it enough to pass the elastic point of the metal.
>
> Please, call Rivendell if you want; get it straight from G, it's okay.

I won't file it. But you're not listening. It is not okay. I can't
even get the wheel in by putting my weight on the bike. In order to
apply enough force to get it in there, I am likely to hurt myself
and/or drop the bike. It's not about damaging the dropouts.

[Toshi Takeuchi]

You don't put the wheel on the frame by pushing down on it with your
weight. You need to spread the frame with your hands and then slide
the wheel in.

3 mm means you just need to spread the frame by 1.5 mm on each side.
It shouldn't require much force. You can see this by flexing the frame
with your hands (with no wheel). Check with a ruler to see how small
1.5 mm is.

The wheel may not go on the drive side too easily because your rear
derailer (RD) is not aligned properly. Put your RD in the smallest
cog in the rear cassette and put the chain onto the smallest cog
before you try to slide it into the dropouts. If you don't do this
already, then it's a great method for fixing flats.

Toshi


On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Michael Richters
<michael....@gmail.com> wrote:

[...]

[Jim M.]

Agreed. You should stand behind the bike to spread the dropouts and pull the wheel up into them. I put a 130 in 126, and a 126 in a 122 all the time. You won't damage the frame -- another benefit of steel.

jim

[Joe Bernard]

This is getting out of hand. My Saluki rebranded as a Hilsen was a true 135, and the site claims 135. The buyer needs to work this out with Grant. Us telling him "it's not a problem" is not helping.

 

Joe Bernard

Vallejo, CA.

[Michael Richters]

Thanks for the advice, guys, but you obviously didn't read my
description of the situation. It's not a complete bike; it's just a
frameset with nothing on it, except maybe the front wheel. There's no
chain, no derailleur, et cetera. Since I only have two hands, I can't
spread the dropouts and simultaneously lift the wheel in. And I'm not
the slightest bit interested in how far other people are able to flex
the frames of other bikes, as this is not at all relevant. I don't
doubt that you're able to spread the dropouts of the frames in
question as you describe. It would be nice if you would give me the
same courtesy of accepting the truth of my statement that I have tried
the same thing on the frame in question, and I cannot accomplish the
feat.

Before leaning on the frame with all my weight to jam the wheel in the
dropouts, I tried spreading it with my hands and lowering it onto the
wheel, but my fingers can only get so close to the dropouts with the
wheel in there, and whether I grab the seatstays or the chainstays, I
can't spread it far enough (if I grab it right at the dropouts, I can,
but that's not at all useful). I tried several methods, and the only
one that resulted in a wheel all the way in both dropouts was leaning
on the frame with most of my weight. Even after this scraped off
virtually all the paint on the forward edge of the inside surfaces of
the dropouts, this was still the only thing that worked.

As for how big 1.5mm is, I know full well. As I wrote before, I
measured the space between the dropouts with calipers.

Lest I sound too ungrateful, I do appreciate that you guys are (more
or less) trying to be helpful. I just want you all to understand that
how easy something *should* be in theory -- or even in your own
experience -- is not relevant. What is relevant in this case is *my*
experience with *this* frame. And in this case, I paid $2000 for a
frame with 135mm dropouts, and I got one with 132mm dropouts, which I
would have been willing to put up with if I could have been confident
that I could get the wheel in and out of on the road without risking
hurting myself. Fortunately for me, when I discussed the matter with
the very excellent people at Rivendell, they decided to replace the
frame with one that has the correct dimensions. I am grateful,
although I have misgivings about how much this is costing them; I
would have much prefered it if we could have found a less expensive
way to solve the problem (none of the local bike shops seem to be
confident that they can spread and align the dropouts on a steel
frame). Alas, this was not to be.

Now, since I am not a three-armed Arnold Swarzenegger, I would
appreciate it if people would stop telling me what I "should" be able
to accomplish.

--MR

[Peter Morgano]

Well it is obvious you are frustrated with the list members who are just trying to help so why dont you take "this" conversation out of "here" and take it up with Rivendell directly. If you wrote them as acrimonious of an email as you wrote us I would think they would respond right away... 

[Doug Magney]

Here is a link to Sheldon Brown's classic article on cold setting frame dropouts. http://sheldonbrown.com/frame-spacing.html
I've done it as a novice and got excellent results.

[Michael Richters]

On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 7:47 PM, Doug Magney <yenga...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Here is a link to Sheldon Brown's classic article on cold setting frame dropouts. http://sheldonbrown.com/frame-spacing.html
> I've done it as a novice and got excellent results.

Aha! I searched for the wrong terms when I went to Sheldon's website,
apparently. Well, now that I know how it's done, there's no way I'd
want to try this (or have my less-than-confident local bike shop
mechanic try it) on a brand-new $2000 frame. On an old frame that
isn't useful otherwise, sure...

[Matthew J]

Agreed. A very annoying response. The O.P. asked for our advice. Looming through the posts above, just about all say to contact Riv., but also share experiences with the issue.

If someone does not want to hear about other's experience or knowledge on an issue, best not to ask ina public forum.

[Michael Richters]

On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 11:01 AM, Matthew J <matth...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Agreed. A very annoying response. The O.P. asked for our advice. Looming through the posts above, just about all say to contact Riv., but also share experiences with the issue.
>
> If someone does not want to hear about other's experience or knowledge on an issue, best not to ask ina public forum.

You know what's annoying? People trying to give me advice without
bothering to read what I've already written about the problem. I
asked for advice for how to solve a problem, and most of the responses
I got were simply useless claims that it wasn't a problem. Here's an
analogy: A man has his arm trapped under a large rock, and asks a
passerby for help. The other fellow simply says, "Just push harder.
When I get trapped under my rock, I can get out; it just takes a
little oomph." The trapped man replies that he has already pushed as
hard as he can, and the other guy says, "No, really, it's fine; just
push a little harder."

If you had actually read what I wrote in this thread, you would have
seen that I did, in fact, contact Rivendell at the first mention of
doing so (actually, I did so even before that). You would also
probably have noticed that I have since resolved the issue with them.

Feel free to write me off as an obnoxious moron who won't take your
sensible advice if you want, but please, in the future, take the
trouble to read a person's full description of a problem before
offering advice. If you're too lazy to listen, your advice won't be
of much use.

[Peter Morgano]

Then stop posting about it and lets let this one die. I for one will not be following this thread anymore. Moving on people!

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[ian connelly]

Not knowing you AND not having any idea how to solve your problem, and having read the entire thread (and not having sent you any advice), I now consider you an obnoxious moron. Welcome to the group.

[Toshi Takeuchi]

On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 11:08 AM, Michael Richters <michael....@gmail.com> wrote:

You know what's annoying?  People trying to give me advice without
bothering to read what I've already written about the problem.  I
asked for advice for how to solve a problem, and most of the responses
I got were simply useless claims that it wasn't a problem.  

Maybe what I should have said so that Michael understood the message is that it is bad to try to mount a wheel by forcing one's body weight on the wheel/hub. If I didn't read such a harebrained idea, then I would have never responded to the post.

I sense an unfriendly combination of naivete and arrogance, but I'm sure it is just a bad first impression (or a fault of mine--of which I have plenty).

I honestly hope that the properly spec'd new frame works perfectly and has a great ride!

Enough said.
TT

[Matthew J]

In all sincerity, you really do not belong in a public forum.

A public forum is a place where people share experiences, ideas and musings.  

Your solution was to get a new frame.  You appear to think every post thereafter should have been a rehash of your post.  There is absolutely no reason to post in the first place if that is all you wanted.

Many people here have bought expensive Rivendell frames and have cold spread them without issue.  Your initial post was an entirely rational invitation for people to share that fact.  

I'm not going to stoop to name calling  But I will say I hope you decide not to post here again.  Certainly I will not be responding to any of your posts.

[Matt Beebe]

Even relatively little things can be somewhat unnerving when you've parted with so much cash for a new frame.    I'm glad to hear it is sorted out now-    Rivendell has a reputation for being really good about stuff like that and for valuing their customers.    Here's to finally getting your bike together and putting in some happy miles on it.

Cheers,

-Matt

P.S.  welcome to the group, stick around.

[Philip Williamson]

What I Learned From This Thread (too little too late).

I won't try to put an unshod wheel into a bare frame if the dropouts need spreading. It's easy with a built bike, less so without. 

If I think people are missing crucial facts, I'll reiterate gently, in different terms, with more specifics.

If someone gets frustrated with me or their bike while trying a stressful new thing on an expensive frame, I'll cut 'em some slack. 

Philip

www.biketinker.com

[Joe Bernard]

Even a correctly spaced, fully built bike takes some familiarity before dropping a rear wheel in comes easily. It took me a while (way back when) to get the hang of getting it past the derailer without some frustration. If this kind of thing is new to you, even the built bike with narrow spacing will be a struggle. Which brings me back to something a few of us said early on in this saga: The OP should practice on a beater before working on his brand-new-spensive frame.

 

Joe Bernard

Vallejo, CA.

[Rex Kerr]

I agree that a bike should have a mascot, but IMO the mascot should be found while riding the bike.  My touring bike's mascot is a small plastic frog, which I zip tied to the top of the stem...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/rexkerr/6724309713/in/photostream 

My AHH doesn't have a mascot yet...

On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 8:34 PM, Manuel Acosta <manueljo...@hotmail.com> wrote:

Don't forget the most important thing! A nicknack that is either tied or twined on your bike somehow. Make it something meaningful. I got a mini wooden Sasquatch that I named Robert. Robert from Knot Only A Bear in Oregon made it for me. Said he was the smallest Sasquatch ever!

Picture proved that Robert made it.

http://flic.kr/p/cUAWAE

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[Michael Richters]

On Fri, Sep 21, 2012 at 2:17 PM, Philip Williamson
<philip.w...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I won't try to put an unshod wheel into a bare frame if the dropouts need
> spreading. It's easy with a built bike, less so without.

What would make it easier with a fully-assembled bike? If anything, I
would expect it to be marginally easier with the bare frame, since one
wouldn't need to deal with the chain and derailleur. At any rate,
this hypothesis does not appear to have been tested, at least not
based on the contents of this discussion.

[Jim M.]

[Philip Williamson]

You tested it. Couldn't do it. Must be hard. I will take your experience as a data point, no more. 

On a built bike, for me, dozens of times, gravity made it easier. The derailleur and chain were not a factor.

Philip "Don't I have a bike to ride?" Williamson

www.biketinker.com

[Cyclofiend Jim]

Wow.

Man oh man oh man.....You finally take a week's vacation and go camping and there's a moderate kerfuffle in the group.  And the distinct odor of umbrage. 

In the words of many barkeeps for a multitude of generations:

"Gentlemen, PLEASE!"

I'll paraphrase a point I've made before - in the written word, smiles and head nods don't come through. So much of communication is non-verbal, and when we distill it into a written format, it increases the opportunity for things to be taken the wrong way, even under the most mundane circumstances. Though we've grown in number, it does seem that most active posters in this group have maintained the core element of what makes this a good resource - " a respectful, supportive and polite tone in all posts." 

Now, I realize that this is a deceptively simple concept, but it also is the only tenet (other than topic-specificness...) which I do feel needs to be spelled out in the structure of this group.  It worked in the past, it generally works on a day to day basis and it should work in the future.

Accusations have no place on this list.  Nor does name calling.

 One of the reasons this group was created is to provide a venue to ask and receive advice.  Each of us is autonomous enough to act on advice we find helpful, and discard that which is not.  Nobody's trying to fool anyone here, and all we have is our own experiences.

So, let's all move on.  I'm locking this thread down.

- Jim / List Admin

cyclofiend.com / cyclo...@gmail.com