Rivendell Appaloosa

[Jim M.]

Dropped by RBW today for a few things, including a leftover RONA t-shirt (that's Retrogrouches of North America). Snapped a pic of the new protovelo with an Appaloosa headbadge that I hadn't seen before:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/20986098@N04/8322596189/in/set-72157632374797893/

Also included a shot of the new Yves Gomez headbadge because it's so cool.

jim m
wc ca

[Joe Bernard]

Hmm. This appears to be the HS/Bosco/Mystery Bike, but that wasn't supposed to come with (or be capable of having) a front derailer. Curious. Love the color.

 

Joe Bernard

Vallejo, CA.

[Benz, Sunnyvale, CA]

That front derailleur cable routing appears to be jerry-rigged. Once you get the cable stop established (looks like it's piggy-backing on the rear derailleur cable boss), the rest is relatively easy as there's going to be a guide at the bottom of the BB anyway.

[Jim Mather]

On Sat, Dec 29, 2012 at 5:54 PM, Benz, Sunnyvale, CA
<benzo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> That front derailleur cable routing appears to be jerry-rigged.

Rumor has it that these will become production models. Maybe they'll
add a front derailer stop.

[Peter Morgano]

Hate that color, I much prefer the new Hunq color. I do love the headbadges though, the Gomez one is really sharp. If this is a production bike wouldnt there be real overlap between the Hunq, Bombadil, Sam and this one? I do love the bombadil (I own a 56) but for the price wouldnt it be better to just offer it as a "custom" order and introduce another "budget" frame like this Appaloosa?

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.

To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.

[Andy Smitty Schmidt]

Interesting on the color of the Appaloosa... this appears to be the same bike but lighting and what-not makes the color appear quite.

--Smitty  

On Saturday, December 29, 2012 2:12:27 PM UTC-8, Jim M. wrote:

[Andy Smitty Schmidt]

... quite different. 

--Smitty

[dougP]

What - no racks, no bags, no baskets?  Not even a pump or bottle cage?  And it's already got grips & bar tape!  Nice looking ride; maybe built for a customer?  Those head badges are quite nicely detailed. 

dougP

On Saturday, December 29, 2012 2:12:27 PM UTC-8, Jim M. wrote:

[Dave]

I saw an Appaloosa at RBW before it was shipped (not the one in this pic).  One of the prettiest bikes I've ever seen.  No front derailer, either.  Having ridden the Bosco/proto/whatever, and knowing the it became the Appaloosa, I'd buy one instead of a custom.  It was THAT fun!  You can strap accessories to anything with enough ingenuity; it's the feel that matters, so far as I'm concerned.  I hope it sticks in the lineup, unlike the other great bikes like the Simple One. 

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/3T1L1ZA0LjAJ.

[Peter Morgano]

Now I am curious, how many of these things are there if they are getting shipped out to customers? Did I miss a Blug or email about them picking a name and head badge or are we in the realm of not so secret secrets?

[Dave]

Before you get all "conspiracy theorist" about this, the finished one I saw was one of the original batch that went to the early adopters.  This green one may be part of that, as well.  Besides, if it's a new bike that's taking off due to popularity, let's be happy about that!  Grant never did formally (or at least publicly) settle on a name for it, so, no, you didn't miss a thing.  Transparency was never part of the bargain, though!

No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2637/5996 - Release Date: 12/29/12

[Peter Morgano]

Haha, I am all for new bikes, especially ones that can be set up with IGH hubs. I do love a secret as well and so far I believe there has only been one "mystery bike" owner to come forward and it had more the touches of a custom, with the scarab headbadge and all. I would love to get a test ride on one of those, oh and a credit card with no limit also!

[Joe Bernard]

This bike has very long chainstays, a very long headtube, and is not intended to be run with a front derailer. It's much more "cruiser" than anything else in Riv's line.

 

Joe Bernard

Vallejo CA.

[Joe Bernard]

Toptube, not headtube.

[Benz, Sunnyvale, CA]

Maybe Grant has lost it and designed this bike for the SRAM XX1! Carbon everything, baby! :)

http://www.sram.com/sram/mountain/family/xx1

On Sunday, December 30, 2012 1:34:31 AM UTC-8, Joe Bernard wrote:

[Michael]

What kinda field is that horse rampant on?

But all kidding aside:

I see peeps referring to a "Bosco Bike", a "Mystery Bike", and this "Apaloosa" bike.

1. Are they the same thing, just different names because no official one came out yet? They all have tentacular stays?

In that case, they could call it the Nemo, or something.

2. Are these protos of some new bike soon to come? Or are they production now, and being shipped, but no public announcement yet?

 

[reynoldslugs]

I rode the prototype at Rivendell a few weeks ago.  I was wearing business attire, including a tie, but still was unable to stop saying "wheee!" during the test ride.

 

 I also have more than a little experience riding Appaloosa (the equine variety) as a kid. Grant's version is superior to the equine; the ride is a lot smoother, and the brakes are much easier to find.

 

Max

Sonoma Co

[Leslie]

Grant had always said he liked Indians as a kid, arrowheads and westerns and the like... Appaloosa automatically conjures up such imagery...

I think it's a wonderful name for it...

-L

[Tony Lockhart]

I just read the Wiki page of Appaloosa and was really interested in all of the great info. Having never hear this word, I had assumed the title of this discussion had to do with some kind of  outing or Riv-fest (kind of like Lollapalooza is to music).

Good looking bike and I really like the color and chainstay bends.

On Saturday, December 29, 2012 2:12:27 PM UTC-8, Jim M. wrote:

[Kelly]

Looks very similar to the Bombadil

http://www.flickr.com/photos/tksleeper/8112777098/in/set-72157631828024667/

Saw this one at Hilly Hundred this year.

Kelly

[Allingham II, Thomas J]

I have one of the so-called Mystery Bikes, and I believe it’s the same as the Appaloosa (a genius name, in my opinion).  And as to whether they’re coming out, GP told me this fall that he wants to bring it out as a production bike, but is assessing demand.

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/DjJaTaiJXlQJ.

To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ****************************************************

To ensure compliance with Treasury Department regulations, we advise you that, unless otherwise expressly indicated, any federal tax advice contained in this message was not intended or written to be used, and cannot be used, for the purpose of (i) avoiding tax-related penalties under the Internal Revenue Code or applicable state or local tax law provisions or (ii) promoting, marketing or recommending to another party any tax-related matters addressed herein.
****************************************************
****************************************************

This email (and any attachments thereto) is intended only for use by the addressee(s) named herein and may contain legally privileged and/or confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this email (and any attachments thereto) is strictly prohibited. If you receive this email in error please immediately notify me at (212) 735-3000 and permanently delete the original email (and any copy of any email) and any printout thereof.

Further information about the firm, a list of the Partners and their professional qualifications will be provided upon request.
****************************************************
==============================================================================

[Colin Bortner]

I don't know if the thinking at Rivendell has changed, but Grant's
original vision for this storied frame was free of a front derailer:

"[It's] basically a flat-to-rolling land bike that, by virtue of its
superlong top tube (62.5cm on this 54.3cm frame), locks you into a
sweeepyback bar. That doesn’t rule out touring or dirt riding, but
those aren’t the point, and to drive home the actual point, it has one
water bottle, and no way to mount a front derailer."

http://rivbike.tumblr.com/post/13522805152/odd-new-bike-and-misc-stuffs

I generally vote on the side of weird, so I think its wonderful, but
maybe Riv believes it's too weird, or maybe their inner pendulum has
swung back from specialized to versatile.

However it comes out, I hope they sell thousands of them!

> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/LWDPzos-8zEJ.

[Brewster Fong]

On Monday, December 31, 2012 6:04:42 AM UTC-8, Colin B. wrote:

I don't know if the thinking at Rivendell has changed, but Grant's
original vision for this storied frame was free of a front derailer:

"[It's] basically a flat-to-rolling land bike that, by virtue of its
superlong top tube (62.5cm on this 54.3cm frame), locks you into a
sweeepyback bar. That doesn’t rule out touring or dirt riding, but
those aren’t the point, and to drive home the actual point, it has one
water bottle, and no way to mount a front derailer."

I don't get this bike? Is it design for flatland like Florida? How can you have a 54/55cm bike with a 62.5 toptube? Any rider would have an extremely long torso?! 

Maybe I'm spoiled, but living here in the SF Bay Area, we have tons of places to ride and there's always hills, especially here in SF. But, I love the hills and enjoy climbing. The rewards - good long climbs are usually followed by great descents and the fitness you get from climbing is great. I could never see getting a bike that is only good for "flat-to-rolling land." Good Luck!

[justin...@gmail.com]

Then you probably aren't the target market.

-J

[Brewster Fong]

On Monday, December 31, 2012 8:20:50 AM UTC-8, justin...@gmail.com wrote:

Then you probably aren't the target market.

Fair enough, so who is the "target market?" Good Luck! 

[Jim Mather]

On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 8:19 AM, Brewster Fong <bfd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Maybe I'm spoiled, but living here in the SF Bay Area, we have tons of
> places to ride and there's always hills, especially here in SF.

That would explain the popularity of those Pake Urban bikes, Public
bikes, and a whole store on Market Street for Dutch city anchors (I
mean bikes), none of which would make it up California St without a
push.

jim m
wc ca

[John Price]

While I'm not the target buyer for this sort of bike I have to say
'YEAH!" to Grant for coming up with a nice name - Appaloosa. I may
be in the minority here but names like Homer Hilsen, Bosco, Gomez...
do nothing for me. The bikes are GREAT but the names - to me - are a
let down. With Appaloosa I picture a beautiful, elegant animal.
With Homer Hilsen I picture someone's next door neighbor - nice guy
maybe but I don't want his name on my bike. Again, not saying the
bikes aren't nice - I think the Hilsen is great. Just not so much the
names of fictional people.

John

[Colin Bortner]

Single-speeds, three-speeds, IGHs of all kinds, 1xXs, etc., all prove
there are markets for bikes without a front derailer (infact, many
different markets). In comparison to many common limitations on bikes,
not having a front derailer is hardly radical:

MCRBs that can't fit tires wider that 23mm
(Or can't fit fenders!)
Fixed-gears that can't coast
Handlebars that can't be raised
etc

As to the question of hills and touring, despite calling out
fixed-gears in my list above, I've done a lot of fixed-gear touring,
including cross-country. That may disqualify me from saying this, but
touring with a 24t on your triple in the front may be desirable for
some, but is it really necessary for many-geared tourists with wide
range cassettes? How about the 48t? A wide range 1x8, 1x9, 1x10, or
1x11 with a 36t up front would be more than adequate for most
tourists, covering a range between 30 gear-inces and 90 gear-inches.

Anyway, I'm excited for something different.

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
> To view this discussion on the web visit

> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/Lf4h0xmjB04J.

[Brewster Fong]

I don't know, living and riding in SF, both commuting and recreational, you don't see alot of those kind of bikes being ridden around, especially the dutch ones. Still, even they all do have one feature that can get them up the hill - a front der to allow more than a single speed crank. Thus, they may weight alot, but if they have a triple with low gearing low a 24t or 26t it is possible.

Yes, you do see all the hipster kids riding their fixies and single speed all over the city, but on even moderate hills of about a block or so, you see them walking....

So, I wonder who is the "target market?" Good Luck!

jim m
wc ca

[Peter Morgano]

Maybe people who live in the thousands of cities that aren't San Francisco? NY is a  city that isn't San Francisco, I think at least from looking out the window, and is pretty flat, again that window is coming in handy today. I am not a geography expert but I have to "assume" that there are plenty of other cities that aren't full of hills where someone could really have a lot of fun with this bike. I don't think this was ever billed as an "All Rounder" or anything of the sort.

jim m
wc ca

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/wKnBveQmNeAJ.

[cyclotourist]

I'm guessing meeting the right price point is the trick on this one. Most everybody here could be talked into getting one as an extra/fun bike if the price were right. Plus it would be a GREAT first bike for a LOT of people who just need something to ride to Trader Joe's, go to the movies, take a package to the PO, cruise the promenade. But those folks probably don't want to put a lot of money out for a bike, which is the conundrum.

Me, I'd like to see the top tube disappear and come out with a mixte version. Or incorporate some of it's features (horizontal drop outs, shallow seat tube, loooong virtual top tube) into the existing mixtes.

jim m
wc ca

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/wKnBveQmNeAJ.

To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.

--
Cheers,
David
Redlands, CA

**
"Censorship is telling a man he can't have a steak just because a baby can't chew it." -Mark Twain

[Jim Mather]

On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 10:29 AM, Brewster Fong <bfd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> That would explain the popularity of those Pake Urban bikes, Public
>> bikes, and a whole store on Market Street for Dutch city anchors (I
>> mean bikes), none of which would make it up California St without a
>> push.
>
>
> I don't know, living and riding in SF, both commuting and recreational, you
> don't see alot of those kind of bikes being ridden around, especially the
> dutch ones. Still, even they all do have one feature that can get them up
> the hill - a front der to allow more than a single speed crank.

I work in SF Financial District, and I see plenty of those bikes along
the Embarcadero, and riding up and down Market. And you need to take a
closer look -- none of the Public Bikes are offered with a front
derailer, and the same goes for the Dutch bikes and the Pake C'mute.
There is plenty of market for non-front derailer'ed bikes even in SF.

jim m
wc ca

[Jim Mather]

On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 9:23 PM, Kelly <tksl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Looks very similar to the Bombadil
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/tksleeper/8112777098/in/set-72157631828024667/

Yes, the asymmetric stays are similar, but the App' has much longer
chainstays and top tube than a Bomb'. It would be difficult to fit the
Appaloosa with drop bars.

[PATRICK MOORE]

Let us not forget that fixed gear drivetrains are the default, norm, benchmark, archetype, and fundamental and natural reference point for all cycling. They are *not* a limitation; rather everything else is, to one degree or another, a declension from their primal purity and huge fun.

Amen.

Over and out.

Patrick Moore, who is sinning at least venially by gathering neat parts to build up a coasting gearie with a (**gasp!!**) derailleur.

On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 11:23 AM, Colin Bortner <colin....@gmail.com> wrote:

[Sip] In comparison to many common limitations on bikes, not having a front derailer is hardly radical:

[Snip]

[Dan McNamara]

I would be a buyer if the price was in a good spot. 

Currently have my '94 XO-4 set up as a  Alba bar grocery getter / front mount baby hauler and have been thinking about setting up a Sam similarly as a replacement. The XO-4 has a 56 c-t seat tube and a 60.5 TT. 

The Appaloosa seems like a better bet for me than the Sam or the XO-4. Even though I live in Marin a wide rear cassette with an appropriate single ring up front would work for me as an around town and family ride bike. 

Don't really want to head in the cargo bike direction so this frame looks very interesting. 

Hoping it becomes a real model in the Riv lineup. 


Dan

Marin

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/Lf4h0xmjB04J.

[Philip Williamson]

A 36t ring and am 11-34 cassette gives you gears from 31" to 95" on Big Apples.

That would be more than enough for me. 

Philip

www.biketinker.com

[RJM]

I agree with you John, I totally dig the name.

 

I can't say I am in a market for this type of bike being that I need something for club road riding more than anything else right now. I do like the stays in the rear, they do give it a unique and pretty cool look. Dig the color.

[justin...@gmail.com]

When I lived in San Fancisco and Oakland almost every person I knew rode a 1-3 speed drivetrain. This being an 8-10 speed one I think they'll get by!

-J, in PHL now

[Steve Palincsar]

On Mon, 2012-12-31 at 08:19 -0800, Brewster Fong wrote:
>
> I don't get this bike? Is it design for flatland like Florida? How can
> you have a 54/55cm bike with a 62.5 toptube? Any rider would have an
> extremely long torso?!

Unless it was designed to be used with bars that come back at you...

[Joe Bernard]

It's a chopper, and it does what choppers do: Cruise calmy along the waterfront with hands lightly resting on bars that reach way back. If you'll recall, Grant originally proposed shifting the two-ring cranks with a stick. Yes, this chopper comes with a suicide shifter!

 

Joe Bernard

Vallejo, CA.

[William]

I went by Riv HQ today and rode the Appaloosa.  I assure you it was delightful.  It's a dynamite bike unlike any other bike I've ever ridden.  Those that say they don't get it have it 100% correct.  They fail to understand what it is, and what it is for.  Open your mind a little and at least I think you can appreciate what it is, even if you don't want one. 

The highlights for me are the three utterly unique lengths of the Appaloosa

1.  The top tube is so freaking long that you still have room to live even with swept back bars.  Bars that sweep back a foot and you still can't hit your knees on the barcon shifters!
2.  The Bosco Bars that are obviously ideal for it do have a ton of room for lots of hand positions
3.  The 56cm chainstays (56!) give it a swoopy cadillac road feel that was just awesome. 

It's really hard not to giggle when riding it.  Don't even consider it if you don't want your bike to make you smile. 

[iamkeith]

I think that maybe I'M the target market! Now that I know what the
mystery bike is all about, it's giving me serious pause. I just
finished paying for my oldest kid's college, and I've been seriously
teetering on the edge of ordering my first custom bike ever as a
reward - a totally frivolous one-speed "cruiser" for riding around
with my younger kids. So I completely get the appeal, even though I
live in an area that's hillier than San Francisco. Mabe that's what
I'll get when I win the lottery in three days.... except that I'll put
cantilever brakes on it and make it look like this:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/87152838@N05/8332489198/

Happy New Year, everybody!

[Michael]

It don't look like no chopper...but sounds like a fast cruiser-ish bike...

If it turns out to be a chopper, Nitto is gonna have to make some chain link handlebars, and fast!

Brooks is gonna have to make a leather banana seat, with sissy bar, like yesterday!

Velocity is gonna have to put out a Synergy rim with 130 chromed spokes, on the double!

[cbone97]

Any speculation on the relationship of this bike to the "Fat tire,
super duty tourer"??? due this summer? Couldn't be the same bike,
could it? Fat tire? - yes. Super duty? - maybe with more braze-ons.
Tourer? - this is where it seems unlikely unless extended cruising is
the new touring...

I'd be excited to know the Appaloosa IS the ftsdt - or that I'll be
able to get my hands on one in 2013 anyway. I'm even ok with the
color.

Happy New Year!

[Matthew J]

Cruiser bikes with long reach back handlebars are all over the place in LA and New England beach communities.

As for no front derailer, check out, among others, JeffJones mountain bike site. 1by set ups are very common among off roaders. If someone can ride the Sierras without a front derailer, then San Francisco should be a piece of cake.

[Colin Bortner]

Ha! Took me a moment with your custom -- thanks for the laugh.

Happy new year everyone!

[charlie]

The longer wheelbase for a touring machine would be handy but the absence of a front deraileur would not. When you are old,fat and carrying additional baggage a 22x32x44 with a wide cassette is a necessity....even if you are not doing loaded touring. The area I live is not Kansas and while the hills can be as steep as SF usually they are much longer. I would not buy a touring/all rounder frame if it couldn't use wide range gearing. The mystery bike seems more suited to cruising the trails surrounding Riv headquarters and city riding based on the gearing restrictions......it might be fine unloaded on hills for a young, lean rider however.

[Scot Brooks]

If you guys follow @rivbike on Instagram, you can check out Keven's almost-built Appaloosa along with lots of other great photos. Their account is pretty new but they update with a fair amount of regularity.

[cyclotourist]

Thanks for the heads up, Scot. This is them: http://in.5thvillage.com/u/rivbike/

On Tue, Jan 1, 2013 at 10:25 AM, Scot Brooks <scothi...@gmail.com> wrote:

If you guys follow @rivbike on Instagram, you can check out Keven's almost-built Appaloosa along with lots of other great photos. Their account is pretty new but they update with a fair amount of regularity.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/tK134P_Gj1EJ.

To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.

[Joe Bernard]

Keven calls them "long bikes". I like it.

[Mike Schiller]

that green Hunqa on instagram with the drop bars is "to die for".

~mike

On Tuesday, January 1, 2013 12:06:47 PM UTC-8, cyclot...@gmail.com wrote:

[Michael]

Whoa!?!?!

At first glance when the instagram came up I saw "60% off all bikes". Then I saw it was another company, not Riv.

 

Wouldn't that be cool if Riv had a 60% off sale for 10 minutes on any given day, and you happened to hit it just right?

[justin...@gmail.com]

http://Instagram.com/rivbike

They have web profiles now!

[Garth]

I kinda giggle with this frame .... a high-ish end frame made so minimalist you gotta do mods to it just to add fenders .... lol.   

99 bottles of beer on the wall .... take one down and pass it around ........   ;)  ;)

[Matthew J]

Is something missing from the conversation?  At least from the Flickr photo Appaloosa fenders appear to attach the same as fenders on any other Riv.

 

Or are you making a point on GP's long stated preference for SKS plastic fenders as opposed to metal?

On Thursday, January 10, 2013 5:19:56 PM UTC-6, Garth wrote:

[Colin Bortner]

I could have missed something, but I assumed Garth was referencing the
fact that at least some of the Mystery Bikes didn't have drilled
chainstay bridges. Ex. from Tom Allingham:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/37542512@N04/8366365230/in/photostream

I'd expect the production models will be drilled.

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
> To view this discussion on the web visit

> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/p5vebpOYjEUJ.

[Matthew J]

Thanks.  I did not see that.  Does not appear to be the case with the Riv bike in the Flickr and Instagram, so maybe Riv addressed it.

 

Seems Pudge made the most of it in any event.

[Evan]

The other day I took the Appaloosa for a short spin around the RBW neighborhood. That bike didn't so much ride as glide. So smooth and comfortable! Will, who received me upon my return, said the bike makes you feel like a kid: "When you ride it you can't help but smile." He's right.

[Garth]

Yes .. I was referring to the fender mods of the protos :)

I for one would simply love to see some longer wheelbased frames in general, ones that can take FD's and all the braze-ons.  Chainstays well into the 50's.  The minor differences in todays chainstays are really .... well.. minor.  Hopefully this will be  tip of an iceberg of creating such production frames :)   .. other than a custom only.