Slipping QR in horizontal drop out help

[cyclotourist]

I have horizontal drop outs, and my rear wheel consistently slips forward on the drive side. I'm sure it's because of the massive wattage I'm putting out. Any way to keep it from moving? It's getting pretty frustrating. I've cranked down on the Shimano XT QR so tight that I just about need a lever to open it up. I'm even messing up the bearing a little from it being so tight. To no avail.

--
Cheers,
David
Redlands, CA

**
“I believe in an America where millions of Americans believe in an America that’s the America millions of Americans believe in. That’s the America I love.”

[Michael Hechmer]

I would start by having the drop outs checked.  It would seem like if one were slightly bent then the QR wouldn't be sitting flush.  After that, try a new QR.

Good luck

[Marty]

Also check to see if the lock-nuts are knurled or smooth. Knurled might help. Given your apparent horsepower, you might have to swap out the right crank arm for a 150, and go with a 180+ on the left side. ; )

[Michael_S]

If I were you I'd sell that bad boy and get a new Atlantis.  

~mike

[PATRICK MOORE]

From the photo I saw on Amazon, the current XT QRs are internal cam,
so that eliminates one possible cause.

You might also look to see if the hub axle is a bit too long,
preventing the QR from clamping down fully on the dropout plate --
tho' if you are distorting the bearings this isn't your problem.

I would guess that the contact surfaces or at least one of them on
these current XT QRs is aluminum (saves weight, you go much faster)
and does not grip as it needs to.

Last option: get another, old-fashion QR like the early '90s Shimanos
-- all steel. I've used old ones on fixed gears for years with no
slippage.

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--

-------------------------
Patrick Moore, Albuquerque, NM
For professional resumes, contact Patrick Moore, ACRW
http://resumespecialties.com/index.html
-------------------------

A billion stars go spinning through the night
Blazing high above your head;
But in you is the Presence that will be
When all the stars are dead.

Rainer Maria Rilke, Buddha in Glory

[Eric Norris]

Patrick makes some good suggestions. It sounds like something is preventing the drive side from closing enough to grip the dropout. As Patrick suggested, make sure the axle isn't extending beyond the dropout, which would make it impossible to clamp all the way. This can be fixed by loosening all the cups and recentering, or by adding a thin washer on the drive side.

You might also try taking the spiral spring out of the drive side. It could be interfering with the clamping. It's not needed except to make it a bit easier to put the wheel back in.

Finally, make sure both dropouts are the same thickness. If the non-drive-side dropout is thicker, it could be keeping the drive side from clamping down enough. A washer on the drive side would fix that.

--Eric N

[Philip Williamson]

See if the wheel is properly dished. I had a wheel that would always slip in the right dropout, because I was cocking it in the dropouts to center it between the chainstays. After I centered it with a spoke wrench, it stopped doing that. 

It's unlikely that's the problem, but it was for me. 

Philip 

Philip Williamson

www.biketinker.com

On Saturday, May 5, 2012 10:00:45 PM UTC-7, cyclot...@gmail.com wrote:

[Jeremy Till]

Usually, i've had now problem with good quality shimano skewers and horizontal dropouts.  Make sure that your quick release is working smoothly--i dribble some lube around the pivot periodically.  Aside from trying an older steel one, you might also trying roughing the paint on the dropouts to give the skewer more bite. 

What bike is this on?  Are you using uber--low gears often?  It's counter intuitive but actually grinding up a steep grade in the granny produces more pull on the rear wheel than riding big gears or fixed gear riding.  That's why mountain bikes were the driving force behind the switch to vertical dropouts.

On Saturday, May 5, 2012 10:00:45 PM UTC-7, cyclot...@gmail.com wrote:

[cyclotourist]

THANKS for brainstorming this with me. It's frustrating to the point where I'm considering a new bike, so would much rather get it fixed!!!

Here's what I found/did:

• Dropouts appear to be same width ( ~7.2mm) and straight eyeball guesstimate. This could be re-visited 
• Surface of dropouts is rough and should offer plenty of friction.
  
• Axle does not stick out too far. That was an excellent recommendation!
  
• XT QRs are quality cam, but do have aluminum faces. I checked it out and the knurled surface is pretty squished. Possibly on account of my over-tightening it. I swapped it out for a better one.
• In the process, I ditched the curly spring. That maaaaaaay be the culprit. It wouldn't seat all the way in the QR end like it should and a few windings stuck out past the edge. I couldn't push them down with finger strength. Fingers crossed.
  
• Rim was re-dished when I converted the wheel from 130 to 135mm spacing. I'm sure it's ok, but if the end-cap change doesn't work, I'll revisit.
• Gearing... it's very low. 22X32  But it also shifts in the dropouts if I'm in the middle ring/low 34X32. Again, probably the off the chart wattage I'm putting out.
  

I have another set of QR skewers I can try if need by. Same XT model w/ aluminum faces. I have an older Mavic set I could swap out for if that isn't doing it. As I mentioned, it's pretty frustrating. I hope it's something I'm doing wrong, or a problem with the wheel. If it's the problem w/ the horizontal dropouts, I don't want to go to the time/expense/hassle of getting them replaced with verticals. Nor do I particularly want to get a new bike, although yes Mike, an Atlantis would be what I swapped it out for :-)

Thanks to all for the thoughtful recommendations! Ride report to follow.

[Kelly]

My wife's fuji tour bike had this problem. Went from aluminum to steel skews, knurled. This fixed the problem for us.

Kelly

[PATRICK MOORE]

I am pretty sure it's the aluminum contact surfaces -- modern skewers
are meant, it seems, for vertical dropouts only. I remember tightening
an allen "slow release" on one of my fixies until the (steel) skewer
snapped -- couldn't get the aluminum ends to grip tightly enough.

Come to think of it, I've got a 5-6 lb bag of old, old-school,
all-steel skewers and if you (the original complainant) want one, just
LMK. I think I've got a 130 or so and possibly even a 135 or two. None
are very pretty (except the NOS Zeus front which ain't leaving).

Note: will trade skewer/s for single old Campy Record dustcap or
pair/sof nice, shiny metal ones. (I have one Campy already -- thanks,
Eric.)

On Sun, May 6, 2012 at 4:29 PM, Kelly <tksl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> My wife's fuji tour bike had this problem.  Went from aluminum to steel skews, knurled.  This fixed the problem for us.
>
> Kelly
>

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[cyclotourist]

Yes, definitely Al. I put on the new end (still Al) and same problem. Went back and dug out the Mavic all-steel QRs I used to have on there and have replaced them, but not put any miles on it yet. I took those off a while ago as I never liked the cam action on them compared to Shimano. They never seemed to lock down like Shimanos do, so thought I was moving in the right direction. Perhaps not. I'm not sure my troubles started with the change as it was several years ago, but I don't remember a problem w/ the old Mavics.

Thanks again for the input on this! I hope to soon report back with positive news for everyone!

[newenglandbike]

I bet the steel QR solves the problem... aluminum QR nuts are suspect for slippage.    In addition to going to steel, maybe take it in to a shop and have them align the dropouts or borrow a Park FFG-2 alignment tool-  if they are skewed a bit it certainly isn't helping the situation.    Anyway I hope you figure it out.


Matt

On Sunday, May 6, 2012 10:18:53 PM UTC-4, cyclot...@gmail.com wrote:

Yes, definitely Al. I put on the new end (still Al) and same problem. Went back and dug out the Mavic all-steel QRs I used to have on there and have replaced them, but not put any miles on it yet. I took those off a while ago as I never liked the cam action on them compared to Shimano. They never seemed to lock down like Shimanos do, so thought I was moving in the right direction. Perhaps not. I'm not sure my troubles started with the change as it was several years ago, but I don't remember a problem w/ the old Mavics.

Thanks again for the input on this! I hope to soon report back with positive news for everyone!

On Sun, May 6, 2012 at 4:17 PM, PATRICK MOORE <bert...@gmail.com> wrote:

I am pretty sure it's the aluminum contact surfaces -- modern skewers
are meant, it seems, for vertical dropouts only. I remember tightening
an allen "slow release" on one of my fixies until the (steel) skewer
snapped -- couldn't get the aluminum ends to grip tightly enough.

Come to think of it, I've got a 5-6 lb bag of old, old-school,
all-steel skewers and if you (the original complainant) want one, just
LMK. I think I've got a 130 or so and possibly even a 135 or two. None
are very pretty (except the NOS Zeus front which ain't leaving).

Note: will trade skewer/s for single old Campy Record dustcap or
pair/sof nice, shiny metal ones. (I have one Campy already -- thanks,
Eric.)

On Sun, May 6, 2012 at 4:29 PM, Kelly <tksl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> My wife's fuji tour bike had this problem.  Went from aluminum to steel skews, knurled.  This fixed the problem for us.
>
> Kelly
>
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-------------------------
Patrick Moore, Albuquerque, NM
For professional resumes, contact Patrick Moore, ACRW
http://resumespecialties.com/index.html
-------------------------

A billion stars go spinning through the night
Blazing high above your head;
But in you is the Presence that will be
When all the stars are dead.

Rainer Maria Rilke, Buddha in Glory

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[bingomck]

On my road bike (90s Merckx MXL with chrome horizontal dropouts) I was
having the same problem. I got some of the $50 Salsa skewers on my
LBS' recommendation, clamped them down unbelievably tight, and have
had no slippage since.

Hope you get it figured out. Very frustrating and annoying to always
have the worry that the wheel will slip in your head while riding.

On May 7, 1:26 am, newenglandbike <matthiasbe...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I bet the steel QR solves the problem... aluminum QR nuts are suspect for
> slippage.    In addition to going to steel, maybe take it in to a shop and
> have them align the dropouts or borrow a Park FFG-2 alignment tool-  if
> they are skewed a bit it certainly isn't helping the situation.    Anyway I
> hope you figure it out.
>
> Matt
>
>
>
> On Sunday, May 6, 2012 10:18:53 PM UTC-4, cyclot...@gmail.com wrote:
>

> > Yes, definitely Al. I put on the new end (still Al) and same problem<http://www.flickr.com/photos/cyclotourist/7150628661/in/photostream/>.
> > Went back and dug out the Mavic all-steel QRs<http://www.flickr.com/photos/cyclotourist/7150710351/in/photostream>I used to have on there and have replaced them, but not put any miles on it

> > yet. I took those off a while ago as I never liked the cam action on them
> > compared to Shimano. They never seemed to lock down like Shimanos do, so
> > thought I was moving in the right direction. Perhaps not. I'm not sure my
> > troubles started with the change as it was several years ago, but I don't
> > remember a problem w/ the old Mavics.
>
> > Thanks again for the input on this! I hope to soon report back with
> > positive news for everyone!
>

> > On Sun, May 6, 2012 at 4:17 PM, PATRICK MOORE <bertin...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> I am pretty sure it's the aluminum contact surfaces -- modern skewers
> >> are meant, it seems, for vertical dropouts only. I remember tightening
> >> an allen "slow release" on one of my fixies until the (steel) skewer
> >> snapped -- couldn't get the aluminum ends to grip tightly enough.
>
> >> Come to think of it, I've got a 5-6 lb bag of old, old-school,
> >> all-steel skewers and if you (the original complainant) want one, just
> >> LMK. I think I've got a 130 or so and possibly even a 135 or two. None
> >> are very pretty (except the NOS Zeus front which ain't leaving).
>
> >> Note: will trade skewer/s for single old Campy Record dustcap or
> >> pair/sof nice, shiny metal ones. (I have one Campy already -- thanks,
> >> Eric.)
>

> >> On Sun, May 6, 2012 at 4:29 PM, Kelly <tkslee...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > My wife's fuji tour bike had this problem.  Went from aluminum to steel
> >> skews, knurled.  This fixed the problem for us.
>
> >> > Kelly
>
> >> > --
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> >> > To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.

> >> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to

> >> rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.

> >> > For more options, visit this group at
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>
> >> --
>
> >> -------------------------
> >> Patrick Moore, Albuquerque, NM
> >> For professional resumes, contact Patrick Moore, ACRW
> >>http://resumespecialties.com/index.html
> >> -------------------------
>
> >> A billion stars go spinning through the night
> >> Blazing high above your head;
> >> But in you is the Presence that will be
> >> When all the stars are dead.
>
> >> Rainer Maria Rilke, Buddha in Glory
>
> >> --
> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> >> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.

> >> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.

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> >> rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.

[cyclot...@gmail.com]

Consensus seems to be shaping up around having steel clamping surfaces, what are those Salsa QRs?

FWIW, I have horizontal drops on another bike running with Dura Ace Al QRs and no slippage on that one. Gearing isn't much different, 34X28 vs. 34 X32.

> >> > To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.

> >> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to

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>
> >> --
>
> >> -------------------------
> >> Patrick Moore, Albuquerque, NM
> >> For professional resumes, contact Patrick Moore, ACRW
> >>http://resumespecialties.com/index.html
> >> -------------------------
>
> >> A billion stars go spinning through the night
> >> Blazing high above your head;
> >> But in you is the Presence that will be
> >> When all the stars are dead.
>
> >> Rainer Maria Rilke, Buddha in Glory
>
> >> --
> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
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>
> > --
> > Cheers,
> > David
> > Redlands, CA
>
> > **
> > “I believe in an America where millions of Americans believe in an America
> > that’s the America millions of Americans believe in. That’s the America I
> > love.”

> >> > To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.

> >> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to

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>
> >> --
>
> >> -------------------------
> >> Patrick Moore, Albuquerque, NM
> >> For professional resumes, contact Patrick Moore, ACRW
> >>http://resumespecialties.com/index.html
> >> -------------------------
>
> >> A billion stars go spinning through the night
> >> Blazing high above your head;
> >> But in you is the Presence that will be
> >> When all the stars are dead.
>
> >> Rainer Maria Rilke, Buddha in Glory
>
> >> --
> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> >> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.

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> >> rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

[Toshi Takeuchi]

Same problem here. Steel QR solved it.

Toshi

[lungimsam]

What kind of QR do you use - exposed cam or enclosed cam? The former
cannot be used with horizontal drop outs because it can't get tight
enough.
Read all about it here:
http://sheldonbrown.com/skewers.html

[cyclotourist]

Enclosed Shimano type. I always thought that too, but someone else mentioned Salsa working great, and the Flip offs are exposed...

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[cyclotourist]

OK, I finally got around to riding today... and no good news to share. I put on the heavy-duty old-skool Mavic QR that I have. All steel so that's not a concern. Shifted exactly the same as the previous two XT skewers. Bummed to say the least. Next step is take it to my LBS for a dropout alignment and wheel dish checks (both suggested here).
Wish me luck, and feel free to keep brainstorming this!

[Eric Daume]

Worst case, you can always use a chaintug. Something like this:

http://surlybikes.com/parts/tuggnut

I always end up using these with track ends, although I've never needed them on my Crosscheck

Eric Daume
Dublin, OH

[PATRICK MOORE]

I don't know what sort of bike Cyclotourist has, but if by
"horizontal" dropouts he means the usual forward-facing road dropouts,
these won't work -- they are designed for "track ends."

I am very puzzled by your (Cyclotourist -- what's your real name?)
slipping problem: I've had no problems with even chromed horizontals
and decent, internal cam, all-steel QRs.

Are you *sure* that the axle is not coyly peeping out beyond the
outward-facing dropout surface? I've had this happen, and it only
requires a mm or so of excess length to cause the problem.

I can't see alignment being a real issue -- squeeze that QR down and
it should hold the wheel in place.

[Mike]

On May 12, 3:19 pm, PATRICK MOORE <bertin...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> (Cyclotourist -- what's your real name?)

Reading the email, it looks like Cyclotourist's name is "David" but
you can't really believe anything you read on the Internets...

[Mike]

That should say "Reading the post". Sorry.

"Mike"

[cyclotourist]

It has horizontal, not rear-facing track ends. I don't know if those tugs will work, but maybe. It says in bold that they're for rear-facing drop outs...

The name is David, or at least that is what I tell people on the internet. You can see my signature line if you scroll down (included a marvelous quote from Mr. Willard Romney). But surely you know the name of the guy that's been on here and the ibob list with you for the past 10 years and has bought/sold/traded/given away things from/to/with you on several occasions over that decade :-)

The axle is definitely about 1-2mm behind the drop out. That's the first thing I check, hoping that was the cause and source for a simple fix. No such luck.

[EricP]

Hmm.  With it still acting up, am going to join the chorus of the dropouts not being aligned.  But even then, can't see why it would slip so bad.  I was able to ride a Surly Cross Check with the XT quick release without slipping.  Both as a multi geared and single speed. 

 

Only other thing I could think of - the axle could be slightly bent, preventing the hub end and quick release face from being parallel.   So the ends can't clamp tight, although the dropout may be aligned.  Really, highly unlikely (like nearly impossible).  But it's the only other thing that comes to mind.

 

Eric Platt

St. Paul, MN

[PATRICK MOORE]

David!!

My brother, Peter, who has a huge amount of experience wrenching on
all sorts of bikes old and new, says that in his experience, with
slick chrome dropouts, older Campy up through C-Record, or Suntour QRs
with pronounced serrations have worked for him every time; and he's
far bigger than I at 6'2" and 200 lb+. He opines that slightly
mis-aligned dropouts would not prevent a good QR from clamping tightly
enough to prevent slippage.

Or perhaps you just generate insane amounts of torque?

[cyclotourist]

Hey, that's me! :-)

And what you mention is basically what many people have said, so I just can't figure it out. I mean, it really should just dig in and clamp. I'm cranking it down so hard on the QR I can barely undo it with my hands and need to use a screwdriver as a lever. Trust me, it's tight. But then still slips. I'm gonna' drop by my LBS, but I don't have much hope. They probably will tell me I have to buy a new Cervelo or something.

[Michael_S]

I think a new Atlantis would solve your dilemma.... think of  the big fat tires  you could run ...... even Nanos.  Vertical drop outs, check, no more problems, check.  Plus you could get out of your blue bike rut.

Little devil on your shoulder ( mike)

[cyclotourist]

That's an option. I've wanted Nano-clearance for a wile now... :-) But aren't Atlantii blue?

On Sat, May 12, 2012 at 8:25 PM, Michael_S <mikey...@rocketmail.com> wrote:

I think a new Atlantis would solve your dilemma.... think of  the big fat tires  you could run ...... even Nanos.  Vertical drop outs, check, no more problems, check.  Plus you could get out of your blue bike rut.

Little devil on your shoulder ( mike)

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[rob markwardt]

Have you tried a different wheel?

On May 12, 8:37 pm, cyclotourist <cyclotour...@gmail.com> wrote:
> That's an option. I've wanted Nano-clearance for a wile now... :-) But
> aren't Atlantii blue?
>

[cyclotourist]

That's actually my plan for tomorrow. If it holds, then something's wrong w/ the wheel. If it slips, the bike (or possibly the second wheel as well!). I'll report back as I know you all are on the edge of your seats in anticipation!

[Eric Daume]

People have used them on Crosschecks with horizontal dropouts. Here's an example:

http://forums.mtbr.com/8117216-post182.html

Here's a whole discussion of a similar issue on the Salsa Casseroll:

http://forums.mtbr.com/salsa/dissapointed-my-casserole-401914.html

The Salsa designer recommended a tugnut as a worst case scenario.

Eric

[Jeremy Till]

Is it clear when during your rides that it slips?  Just spinning along, cranking out of the saddle, or spinning up a steep climb? I fear it may just be that your combination of horizontal dropouts, QR's, low gears, and steep California climbs that just might be too much for QR's.  My success with QR's and horizontals is limited to road bikes with fixed gear drivetrains or compact double derailleur setups, which lack super-low stump-pulling gears. 

Have you considered converting the hub to a bolt-on (solid) axle?  It might be the cheapest and simplest solution here.  Just have to carry a 15mm box wrench in your saddle bag.

On Saturday, May 12, 2012 10:28:28 PM UTC-7, cyclot...@gmail.com wrote:

That's actually my plan for tomorrow. If it holds, then something's wrong w/ the wheel. If it slips, the bike (or possibly the second wheel as well!). I'll report back as I know you all are on the edge of your seats in anticipation!

On Sat, May 12, 2012 at 10:09 PM, rob markwardt <robm...@hotmail.com> wrote:

Have you tried a different wheel?

On May 12, 8:37 pm, cyclotourist <cyclotour...@gmail.com> wrote:
> That's an option. I've wanted Nano-clearance for a wile now... :-) But
> aren't Atlantii blue?
>

> On Sat, May 12, 2012 at 8:25 PM, Michael_S <mikeybi...@rocketmail.com>wrote:

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > I think a new Atlantis would solve your dilemma.... think of  the big fat
> > tires  you could run ...... even Nanos.  Vertical drop outs, check, no more
> > problems, check.  Plus you could get out of your blue bike rut.
>
> > Little devil on your shoulder ( mike)
>
> >>  --
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>

> > To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.

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>
> --
> Cheers,
> David
> Redlands, CA
>
> **
> “I believe in an America where millions of Americans believe in an America
> that’s the America millions of Americans believe in. That’s the America I
> love.”

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[Steve Palincsar]

On Sun, 2012-05-13 at 10:57 -0700, Jeremy Till wrote:
> Is it clear when during your rides that it slips? Just spinning
> along, cranking out of the saddle, or spinning up a steep climb? I
> fear it may just be that your combination of horizontal dropouts,
> QR's, low gears, and steep California climbs that just might be too
> much for QR's. My success with QR's and horizontals is limited to
> road bikes with fixed gear drivetrains or compact double derailleur
> setups, which lack super-low stump-pulling gears.

My Kogswell P/R has a 26x30 granny gear and, of course, horizontal
dropouts. The wheel has never slipped under load and I've been on some
plenty steep climbs, including in the Black Hills of South Dakota around
Mount Rushmore.

[cyclotourist]

Jeremy et al, I finally got around to changing the wheelset out to a Phil/Bontrager heavy duty wheelset I have. Don't use it very much, so it wasn't the first thing I thought of. Thanks for the suggestions to try that approach!

Anyway, Phil w/ the same Mavic skewers led to zero slippage. I rode the same route (although a bit slower due to a headache) as last week. I purposely left the skewer a bit looser than I was using it on the other wheelset (Dura Ace converted to 135 spacing). Not a problem at all!

Soooooo, some combination of the DA wheelset with the bike is leading to wheel slippage. I'm gong to get the dish checked out as suggested, maybe that is it? I noticed the DA clamping surface isn't fully flat. The edges are beveled so there's not as much contact (why?). There's maybe only 50-75% the contact surface that the Phil hubs have. Possibly part of the problem. Buuuuuut, I have the same hubs on my other Riv w/ horizontal drop outs (DA skewers) and those never slip.

Side note: This problem has been progressive. The DA wheelset is probably three or four years old. No problems with my old wheelset, and problems with the DA one seems to have come on slowly. An occasional need to recenter here or there, but not several times during a ride like it is now.

So I'm currently back in love with my bike, but want all my wheels to work. Things are getting curioser and curioser...

Thanks again for the info and input on this, I'm really trying to figure it out!

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[William]

There is no way whatsoever for dish to have anything to do with this problem.  It does no harm to have dish checked if you think it might not be right, but dish never caused a hub to slip in the dropouts.

The reason the first generation of 130mm spaced dura ace hubs had a beveled locknut was to aid in wedging your 126mm frameset open to take the thing.  That beveled locknut was on the left side, though, and we're talking about dura ace cassette hubs from the early 1990s.  If you swapped parts around when you converted this dura ace rear hub to 135mm, then you actually might have solved your own problem.  Specifically if you moved the left side locknut on an early 90's dura ace hub to the driveside, then that very well might be the cause of your slippage.  Have that specifically looked at, preferably by a mechanic older than 30. 

[cyclotourist]

William, thanks! VERY interesting... kind of a cool feature on Shimao's part. They are indeed old DA hubs from the 90's. 7700 series to be exact. I converted them to 135mm four years ago. I just checked and both locknuts are beveled on the rear, but neither of the front ones are.

So, so, so, so... I'm gonna' see if I can find a non-beveled one I may have lying around or swap one out from elsewhere and give that a try!

I'll keep looking for the elusive <30 y.o. mechanic. Wish me luck with that one!

GREAT advice in this continuing saga!

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[William]

Both are bevelled?  That's just weird or I'm losing it.  Can you photograph it for me?  

And the alligator mouth wants to eat the bigger number, so you are looking for a >30yo mechanic, not a <30yo mechanic.  :)

[cyclotourist]

Your wish is my command:  http://www.flickr.com/photos/cyclotourist/

Alligators and Pacman... arrrgh, flashback to the 80's!!!

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[William]

OK, well that was a red-herring.  You are right that they taper in a little, but the thing I'm talking about tapers in A LOT and only on the left side.  This 7400 rear hub kind of shows it:  

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Dura-Ace-Rear-Tubular-7400-Hub-Nisi-Countache-Rim-8-9-Speed-Excellent-Condition-/120914827269?pt=Cycling_Parts_Accessories&hash=item1c2715d805#ht_500wt_1361 

Especially in the second photo.  Yours look like the right part on both sides.  The knurls do look kind of flattened out, but not in a way where I'd say "Yes, that wheel will slip, because of those knurls".  

Resume your debugging process.  Anything else from my would be a wild guess.  If you asked for my wild guess, I'd try those 'slow-release' levers.  The ones you need an allen wrench to tighten.  On chrome rear dropouts in the past, that's been helpful for me.  I think they generate substantially more clampforce.   

[Joe Broach]

On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 10:43 AM, William <tape...@gmail.com> wrote:

>  If you asked for my wild guess, I'd try those 'slow-release' levers.  The
> ones you need an allen wrench to tighten.  On chrome rear dropouts in the
> past, that's been helpful for me.  I think they generate substantially more
> clampforce.

That's opposite my experience, but I'd be interested to hear the
"slow-release" skewers you had success with. I'm not able to get near
the clamping force out of those 5mm bolts that I get from an internal
cam QR.

I think it almost has to be the axle at this point. Many have run QRs
with horizontal drops without issue. I did with a 22/28 low gear for
thousands of slip-free miles, and that using a Deore LX skewer with
aluminum faces.

Frustrating, to be sure, but I wouldn't be distracted by things other
than that axle.

Best,
joe broach
portland, or

[William]

On my Davidson road bike, with chromed dropouts, I couldn't stop slipping with Mavic or Dura Ace internal cam skewers.  Everything on the bike was brand new.  I replaced them with Control Tech Ti skewers (which I was willing to do also trying to get a lugged steel bike under 18lb).  I never had a single slip with those.  That was 1992.   

[Joe Broach]

On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 12:13 PM, William <tape...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On my Davidson road bike, with chromed dropouts, I couldn't stop slipping
> with Mavic or Dura Ace internal cam skewers.  Everything on the bike was
> brand new.  I replaced them with Control Tech Ti skewers (which I was
> willing to do also trying to get a lugged steel bike under 18lb).  I never
> had a single slip with those.  That was 1992.

That makes some sense, titanium being harder (I think) than steel. The
ones I've used have had aluminum or steel faces. I'll file this trick
away for future use!

[PATRICK MOORE]

Joe's experience with allen skewers is mine, tho' mine all have
aluminum contact surfaces. I once snapped the steel skewer on one
trying to clamp a fixed wheel in chromed, horizontal dropouts.

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[William]

The control tech skewers have a ti skewer part and aluminum ends.  I never had to tighten too hard.