Un-racer bike fitting. Your thoughts on my situation.

[lungimsam]

I was told that my Specialized BG Fit I got at my LBS for my race bike 3 years ago would be transferrable to all bikes. I was told the fit is for maximum power, efficiency, and safety.  Why not have safety, efficiency, and max power when I ride the Bleriot, too? So I thought I would set up the Bleriot the same, except with the Bleriot drop bars so-high-that-they-could-kiss-the-sky on my Technomic stem.

 

I figured the reach, saddle fore/aft, and saddle height I would keep the same as the pro fit.

 

But it doesn't work with the Bleriot.

With the saddle height the same, and the reach the same, the saddle fore/aft is like 2cm further behind the BB center (which is one of the measurements on my BG Fit).

 

So I have 3 choices:

1. Set SH and Fore/aft according to BG fit and get a 2cm longer stem extension to equalize the reach. But I am 5'7"-ish and an 11cm extension would be wierd for me, as I am used to 9 and 8 cm extensions on stems. I think of anything over 10cm extensions for 6-footers.

2. Chuck the BG fit and revert to KOPS, since everyone before pro-fits started seemed to be fine with that.

3. Throw out my pre-conceived notions of bike fit and ride, boldy ride with whatever is comfy.

 

What d'yall think?

 

BTW - I am guessing I am already throwing out aspects of the BG fit by raising the bars so high on the bike. But, for my un-racer bike fit, step one is raising the bars to max height. And that is non-negotiable for me as I love how great it is with the bars high.

 

 

[Marc Schwartz]

3
Ride, my son. Boldly ride!

Marc
"Love and leather
A tear in her eye,
He swore at the Devil
Then he went for a ride."

-Radney Foster-
________________________________________
From: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com [rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com] on behalf of lungimsam [john1...@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2012 10:23 AM
To: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [RBW] Un-racer bike fitting. Your thoughts on my situation.

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[Michael Hechmer]

I was a little confused, but not too surprised by the LBS focus on power and efficiency.  Safety????  What about comfort?   Good studies have shown that the most comfortable position will maximize output offer a long ride, not to mention JPM, (joy per mile.)

My old racing bike now sports a technomic stem at the maximum line.  I still enjoy its lively feel, downhill speed, and acceleration.  And I can comfortably take it on longer rides, even with the 20 mm tubular tires. 

Michael

[pb]

Sounds like you have a good handle on your options.  Why not try them?

 

As previously discussed, set your saddle position first, then your reach.  Sounds like you are discussing your saddle positon relative to your bars.  That's bass-ackwards and wrong.  Fit is personal, and there aren't many things about fit I will call "wrong", but setting your saddle position based on your bar position is wrong. 

 

There's nothing wrong with 11cm stems.  Once you have your saddle set correctly, figure out your reach, and install a stem accordingly.

 

Why do you want your Bleriot bars so high?  From my point of view, unless that set-up is needed for physical reasons, it screws up all kinds of stuff, including saddle angle.

 

As far as "boldly ride with whatever is comfy"...  um, well, yeah.  That's the whole point, unless you're working in a wind tunnel and planning for serious racing, in which case you wouldn't be posting here.  Hopefully you are getting to the point with your set-ups that you have a good idea of what is comfy for you.  Work from that.

[PATRICK MOORE]

Here is what I do to use one bike, set up to be comfortable with bars
at a certain height, as a model to get comfortable on another bike,
where I want the bars at a considerably different height.

First, read Peter Jon White and get your optimum saddle fore-an-aft
setup, along of course with the optimum height and tilt. Or, at least,
get these three positions in a good-enough-to-start-from setup.

**Now** you are in a position to decide what you want to do with your
handlebar.

Next, consider the variables affecting saddle nose-to-bar reach. Type
of saddle? The B 17 is considerably shorter in the nose than a Flite,
say, so that the reach measurement is going to be different by the
amount of the different lengths. Second, the tt length: a 59 cm c-c tt
will give a longer reach, ceteris paribus, than a 57 ditto. But wait!
Is the Bleriot's tt slanted? Then a 3* upslope 59 cm tt won't be
exactly 2 cm longer in effective length than a level 57 cm tt.

And there is more! If the B has a slacker seat tube than the S, that
also will affect effective reach -- and if the st angle is slacker
than the ht angle, this difference will be even larger. Thus, my
erstwhile 56, 2010 model Sam Hill had a sta of 71*, a sloping tt of 59
cm and a ht angle of 73*. So, I guess, the effective tt length was
something like 60 c-c.

The two Riv customs have slightly sloping 57 tts and 73* parallel
angles; thus the effective tt is about 56.5.

I wanted to "feel" the same on the SH as on the customs but I wanted
the bar higher. How much higher? Not sure, but at least saddle nose
height. I got the (Flite, same model) saddle in the same location as
on the other Rivs, then took the same distance (~20.5") from saddle
nose to center of bar clamp, which gave me an arc of
distance-cum-height where the reach would be the same. I located the
SH's bar on this arc and stem'd accordingly. (Actually, I lie: I
didn't want to bother with changing the 10 cm SH stem (the customs
have Nitto 8s) so I simply positioned the bar higher on the SH than I
would have with a shorter stem: about 2" above saddle nose. And then!
Since the bar was a longer reach (much longer drop mitigated by slight
reverse bend on the flats) 46 cm Noodle instead of 90 mm reach 185,
AND since I was using longer-hood Tektros instead of pre STI Dura
Aces, the bar had to come back a bit -- thus had to be moved a wee bit
higher.

Current Fargo: same 57 upsloping tt only with a much greater slope.
Bar level with saddle, thus 3 cm higher than on the customs. Tektro
levers. More or less by serendipitous muddling I came up with (1) a
certain number of spacers under the stem, (2) a certain angle and (3)
a certain length. Since my next door neighbor offered me a nice
Ritchey stem that was short and flat, I found that it worked even
better than the much more upjutting and longer stem (positioned with
all spacers over it). Saddle nose to bar clamp just a bit longer, to
take into account largely the longer reach Tektros; the reach of the
42 (this time) Noodles isn't all that much different from that of the
38 cm Maes Parallels.

Oh, it's complicated, and it takes fiddling to get things just right,
but the above method does allow you to use one setup as a rough model
for another quite different setup.

And, note too, that your body will compensate for those last few mm
that you can't get exactly identical. On the Fargo, riding in the
hooks is easier than on the customs: I can ride 7 miles nonstop in the
Maes's hooks without difficulty, 10 if I insist, while on the Fargo,
thanks to the higher (but not exactly proportionately higher! The
drops are deeper!) I can go indefinitely.

Clear, huh?



Next, if the tt on the B is longer than that on the S, that also will
affect reach, so that different stems may be necessary; EXCEPT that
shallower seat tube angles will mean that a given top tube length
brings the top head tube race, and thus the stem quill, closer to the
saddle. Thus (for another example) my erstwhile Sam Hill had a 59 c-c
tt compared to the Rivs' for-me-perfect 57; but then, the 71 st on the
SH meant that the effective tt length compared to the other Rivs' was
considerably shorter; I guess about 58. And bars 2" higher took care
of the rest.

I use a plumb line and identical saddles to start with 3" behind
center of bb axle, this after getting the height and tilt more or less
the same as my model. After than it is a matter of riding, adjusting
f-and-a, and then adjusting height and tilt as needed.

Only ***then*** do I set up my bar reach.

Thus: My Rivs have the Flites' noses about 3" behind the center of the
bb axles; then the bar is set for (nowadays) about 3 cm below saddle
nose; and then and only then do I determine what stem I need to get --
tho' I know from experience it is going to be between 8 and 9 cm for
these bikes.

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Patrick Moore, Albuquerque, NM, USA
For professional resumes, contact Patrick Moore, ACRW
http://resumespecialties.com/index.html
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[PATRICK MOORE]

'Scuse the poor editing. Ignore text below "Clear...".

[lungimsam]

With the Bleriot, I am mainly out for comfort only on the set-up. I really enjoy the bars high. I can see the sky now on rides. There is really a world beyond my helmet brim and the asphalt. Ha ha!

 

My problem is, I don't know where the saddle should be, and I know I need to start from that. I know saddle fore/aft is a bb thing, and not a reach thing.

 

I know I did it backwards, but I just set the reach and SH according to the BG Fit, and then checked the saddle fore/aft to see if it was the same, which turns out ain't the same due to frame geometry I am sure.

 

It seems fine the way it is now, maybe I should leave it be and see how it goes. I don't mind being further behind the bb, as if I could tell anyway. Does 2cm even matter? I am not a racer, just a rec rider and commuter. I have heard of some people shoving the seat all the way back.

 

[Jeremy Till]

Do you feel (emphasis) that there's anything wrong with your saddle setback being so far back?  Is there any specific problem you're having while riding?  If not, i say just stick with what works, because in this case, it's exactly the kind of difference that you get in a rivendell vs. a normal bike: not only higher bars but farther back saddle (achieved through slacker seat angle, usually) to get more weight off the hands and onto the butt. 

BG fits are good but remember the whole point of them is to make you feel better on the bike (and yes, produce more power, but i stand with others in saying that you're going to be most efficient when you're comfortable); if you're comfortable and efficient in a position other than the BG fit, I say there's no reason to throw that out in favor of the BG fit.  Your experience while riding is the empirical data. 

Also, in terms of going with the longer stem (if that's what you end up doing)....I wouldn't worry about it being "wrong" for your size.  Rules like that are for the image conscious racer, not the un-racer.  I'm 6'3" with long limbs and my stem on my road bike is only 100mm (raised up pretty high, too), partially because i achieve so much reach from setback. 

On Thursday, August 23, 2012 9:23:18 AM UTC-7, lungimsam wrote:

[Peter Morgano]

Go for a ride with someone Allen wrenches. Adjust one thing at a time and you will find your happy place in about an hour. Then don't waste time measuring things and just enjoy the ride.

[Toshi Takeuchi]

If you're going to raise the bars, then you will be more upright, so
you will already be away from your race fit. If you lengthen the stem,
then you will be scrunched down again, but you negate any benefits of
the upright position and you will be less aerodynamic, so you will
ruin your race fit and your comfort fit.

I would throw the race fit out and experiment with your own comfort
zone. I like Peter White's philosophy of bike fit (find it at
peterwhitecycles.com). I try to optimize my position on the bike so I
don't put pressure on my hands. This requires me to put my seat way
back (in the riding position I like). In order to accomplish that
position, I had to get new seatposts (VO setback or Nitto Lugged) and
I got Rivet saddles to push it way back. I'm much more comfortable now
and don't have to worry about hand numbness/discomfort on long rides.

Toshi

[Ginz]

If the frame angles aren't the same between both bikes, there are many
allowances and considerations you'll have to make in order to set them
up with exactly the same fit.

That said, for the Bleriot, choose #3 and get the bars up as high as
you want until they are comfortable even if it doesn't look right to
you. Pretty soon, it will look right.

[lungimsam]

On Thursday, August 23, 2012 1:03:58 PM UTC-4, Patrick Moore wrote:

'Scuse the poor editing. Ignore text below "Clear...".

...But, Patrick,  I liked the text below "clear".

 

Thanks for all the great info. It really appears that a bike fit done on one bike cannot be transfered to another.

 

 

 

 

 

[lungimsam]

I am going to try #3, but also try KOPS, just to see where everything lines up in all 3 options, just for curiosity.

 

I will check out the Peter White article, too.

 

I think since I am enjoying the high bars, I am just trashing the BGFit by doing that anyway, and there is no way I am going to go back to low bars like on the race bike. So I may as well chuck the pro fit and work on fit for pure comfort. That's what it's all about for me anyway.

 

Thanks for all the great info, everyone. Keep the advice coming if you have other thoughts/advice/ideas. I really need them.

 

Is there anything to avoid, for the sake of not hurting myself from repetitive motion? I know the seat height should not be too low or high.

Is there a problem with saddle too far forward/back? I know someone said their PT told them to be behind the pedal spindle.

 

[Travis]

Everything in moderation. In my experience, allowing my saddle too much setback caused some other problems to appear - less control, a stiffer lower back, and more knee pain. So yes, I think a saddle can have too much set-back.

[lungimsam]

Thanks Travis. I will listen carefully to what my body is telling me with any changes I make.

[Steven Frederick]

All things being equal, higher bars usually make a little more set
back of the saddle good anyway. You're basically rotating your body
around the bottom bracket. That is, lower bars, move saddle forward,
higher, move it back. (we're talking mm's of saddle adjustment
here--not inches, within an acceptable range for efficient and
comfortable pedaling) I've been dealing with a herniated disc in my
neck most of the summer and raised (re-Riv'd) my bars a few cm's.
Moving the saddle back 3-4mm felt good with the higher bars.

Steve Frederick, East Lansing, MI

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[Steven Frederick]

On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 6:10 PM, lungimsam <john1...@gmail.com> wrote:

...

> Is there a problem with saddle too far forward/back?
>

In my experience, too far back with make your lower back hurt and too
far forward will tighten up your shoulders and tire your arms and
hands. If you start experiencing either of those, make a small
adjustment. (small adjustments is key--when your saddle is close to
the "perfect" spot a mm can make a difference.)

Steve

[lungimsam]

I had a lightbulb moment tonight about this whole fit issue I have been concerned about.

 

Here was my original concern about the fit set-up:

 I was told by the fit guy, that the BGFit I got a couple years ago is transferable to all bikes, regardless of style.

 

However; setting the saddle height and fore/aft on the Bleriot with the same measurements as my pro road bike fit, mysteriously will yield a closer reach measurement from saddle nose to the bar top at clamp.

I thought that then this means the road bike pro fit is untransferrable to the Bleriot.This would make sense since the geometry of the Bleriot is different than the race bike, even though This had me scratching my head.

 

Aha! But! I keep bars on my Rivendell are a few inches higher than the saddle (and I'm keepin' 'em there unitl they are pried from my cold, dead hands). On my race bike, the bars are a couple inches lower than its saddle.

 

Because the Bleriot bars are higher, this moves them back closer to the saddle, shortening the reach measurement. Duh!!! I shoulda thought of that before! I bet if I lower the Bleriot bars lower than the saddle like the race bike, the reach will be about the same.

 

So I think I will set it up so that the saddle height and fore/aft will be the BGFit, and just keep the bars closer (since I like 'em high) if they still feel good that way. Of course, the bike doesn't have to be the same as the race bike for saddle height fore/aft, but if it has been working for my legs, why change it.

 

I may play around with it and try a "Rivendell Fit" one day. That means my SH will be .25cm lower than my BGFit (according to the formula given in Just Ride [PBH - 11= SH]). And I could try shoving the saddle all the way back, which is mentioned in Just Ride, too.

 

Anyway, I will set it up and see how it feels.

 

 

[Philip Williamson]

.25cm is 1/10 of an inch. Wear jeans, and it will be perfect. 

Even I can't tell if this is snarky, or zen, but my intentions are good. If the <1/8" difference in saddle height feels wrong, change it. It's very likely that you will be wearing thicker trousers riding in Riv Mode than in Racer Mode, which could well take up the difference, BUT, you might have a higher stack height on your pedal, and thicker shoes, which will compound the problem, possibly doubling or trebling the fit error. It's all very complicated, until you get on the bike and go. Buy an allen key that fits your seatpost clamp, tuck it in your pocket, and find out what you like best. 

Philip

www.biketinker.com

[lungimsam]

True, there is alot that could factor into the fit. Shoe sole thickness, pedals, etc.

 

Bike fit is so confusing. There are so many things involved.

 

If something feels off, it could be the stem extension, or seatpost height, or the saddle for/aft, or the saddle angle, or the brake lever profile, or the bars are too wide/narrow, or I'm just having a bad day that day, and on and on.........aarrrggghhhh, so confusing.

 

I think I will just ride it and try not to be so fussy. See how it settles in after a while.