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I'm pretty sure that the only way to get a "fake" randonneuring
experience would be to ride in the sidecar of a motorcycle. Or in a
luxury motor home being driven by your butler, while nibbling delicate
hors d'oeuvres of a sort that wouldn't survive a trip in and out of a
handlebar bag and watching the brevet on TV.
Emily "only half-true [steel, but only raceblade fenders]" O'Brien
-----------------------------------
Dill Pickle
... gear for the extra mile
www.dillpicklegear.com
-----------------------------------
January first I wrecked my bike (steel frame) on a ride. It was
custom made ten years ago. The maker now only builds Carbon frames.
FWIW, I've used a stock front carbon fork for my first few SR series plus PBP. I now use it daily for commuting. It's plenty
wide enough for large (35mm+) tires and fenders.
Lots of modern carbon cyclocross bikes would also make good Randonneuring bikes so I would suspect it's possible to
make what you want in carbon. If the only problem is the fork rake you could find a steel fork you like and ask your
builder to design around it. Perhaps your existing fork is still useable for this purpose.
Jake
Haven't needed any of the other stuff in 4 PBPs now.
Looking forward
to #5 in 3 more years.
On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 2:02 PM, roadijeff <road...@aol.com> wrote:
Haven't needed any of the other stuff in 4 PBPs now.
yeah, imho some riders take way too much stuff, but i guess everyone has their own balance of need, want, and unnecessary.
--
Jan,
For me it always runs this way - no matter how much I carry, I find out that there is ALWAYS something that I do not have when I need to have it…
At PBP it was a fourth backup connection cable for my Garmin – only after the first three failed for the first time ever.
Jim House
Maumee, OH
--
At 6:49 PM -0800 1/16/12, Old5ten wrote:
On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 2:02 PM, roadijeff <road...@aol.com> wrote:
Haven't needed any of the other stuff in 4 PBPs now.
yeah, imho some riders take way too much stuff, but i guess everyone has their own balance of need, want, and unnecessary.
When you do the math, as we did in a simulation that we published in Bicycle Quarterly, you realize that an extra 1 kg (2.2 lb) will add only between 7 and 20 minutes to your entire PBP, depending on how fast you are. (Less for faster riders, whose main resistance is aerodynamic.)
Compared to using faster tires (which easily can save hours) or lowering your stem by 20 mm, the speed difference due to weight is inconsequential. And all bike-related performance improvements pale compared to the time you can save if you spend less time off the bike. This is why a comfortable bike that keeps you dry usually will be faster overall, even if it may be slightly slower on the road.
It's also hard to estimate the actual impact of some real world weight
differences. Do you notice the weight gain from drinking a liter of
water (or the weight loss when you take a "natural break") and does that
weight gain induce fatigue - or dispel it?
>i'm not quite sure about your simulation, since i haven't seen it,
>but it's hard to model fatigue accurately. it goes way beyond the
>simple physics of x feet of gain over y miles at z power with a
>particular weight.
You make a good point.
The fatigue comes in because a slower bike will keep you on the
course longer. But if you are looking at spending an extra 7 to 20
minutes on the bike during PBP, I don't think the extra fatigue is a
major factor.
Weight is a factor that is easy to measure, and thus easy to obsess
about. In real-life randonneuring, it is one of the least important
factors determining most riders' performance.
Where weight can play a role is when you ride in a group. If 20
riders climb a 3-km hill with the same power output, but one of the
20 has a bike that is 5 lb. heavier, then that rider might arrive at
the top 5 seconds later, and thus is dropped.
If you ride by yourself or with friends who wait for you at the top,
then 3 seconds per hill isn't going to make a large difference even
on a hilly course like PBP. (100 hills x 3 seconds = 5 minutes)
Jan,
�
For me it always runs this way - no matter how much I carry, I find out that there is ALWAYS something that I do not have when I need to have it�
At PBP it was a fourth backup connection cable for my Garmin � only after the first three failed for the first time ever.
�
Jim House
Maumee, OH
�
From: ran...@googlegroups.com [mailto:ran...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Jan Heine
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2012 10:02 AM
To: Old5ten; roadijeff
Cc: randon
Subject: Re: [Randon] Re: Carbon
�
At 6:49 PM -0800 1/16/12, Old5ten wrote:
On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 2:02 PM, roadijeff <road...@aol.com> wrote:
Haven't needed any of the other stuff in 4 PBPs now.��
yeah, imho some riders take way too much stuff, but i guess everyone has their own balance of need, want, and unnecessary.
�
I took way too much stuff last year. I carried a lot of food I could not eat after the heat of the first day.
�
But I also found that the extra weight didn't slow me down.
�
I analyzed my PBP time recently, and the main reason I was 3 hours slower than in 2007 was weather-related. I stopped to warm up, and I also needed to eat food at every control, as I could not stomach my bars any longer. My bike actually was lighter this year than the one used in 2007, but being completely unsupported, I carried a little more food in my handlebar bag.
�
If I could have eaten normally, being able to eat on the go from my handlebar bag would have kept my stops shorter, and would have been well worth the extra weight.
�
When you do the math, as we did in a simulation that we published in Bicycle Quarterly, you realize that an extra 1 kg (2.2 lb) will add only between 7 and 20 minutes to your entire PBP, depending on how fast you are. (Less for faster riders, whose main resistance is aerodynamic.)
�
Compared to using faster tires (which easily can save hours) or lowering your stem by 20 mm, the speed difference due to weight is inconsequential. And all bike-related performance improvements pale compared to the time you can save if you spend less time off the bike. This is why a comfortable bike that keeps you dry usually will be faster overall, even if it may be slightly slower on the road.
�
And some of the stuff I didn't think I'd need, like my Gore-Tex shell gloves, came in handy when I hit an unforecast 10-hour thunderstorm.
�
I try to pare down my load to a minimum - for example, I rarely carry more than 2 inner tubes, relying on glueless patches in the rare event of having more than two flats - but I also found it is better to be prepared than not to have what you need.
�
Jan Heine
EditorBicycle Quarterly
Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/
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Kole,
One of my best finds is a set of Subway bags – I always carry then – emergency gloves as well as sox covers just in cast – it will add at least 30 degrees to either my hands or feet and only weigh a few grams.
Jim House
Maumee, OH
From: ran...@googlegroups.com [mailto:ran...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Kole Kantner
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2012 7:32 PM
To: ran...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Randon] Re: Carbon
Since there will always be something we don't have when we need it, gaining flexibility on making do with existing resources seems like a great idea. Determining the critical needed items with key backups is also necessary. There is always a chance electronic items like a Garmin will fail and then a cue sheet in a zip-lock bag would be helpful. Learning to make do with less can be fun, as long as it isn't too life threatening. I suppose I should carry cue sheets more often, but I'll also consider a backup Garmin and 4xAA battery pack. I am also thinking of the most efficient way purchase on the route an emergency couple thousand calories for long unsupported stretches when I can't resupply for unforeseen reasons.
Other ideas:
Carry a small bright 1xAAA helmet light like the Fenix LD01 that gives usable riding light for 7 hours per battery in case my dynamo system fails. That light weighs an ounce with the battery and also runs 27 hours on the dimmer setting.
Use full finger gloves and carry a waterproof shell like the Outdoor Research lobster shell that weigh an ounce or two and takes up almost no space. That suffices for me down to 10 or 20 degrees F.
Use wool long sleeve thin shirts and carry a thin Goretex jacket for cold or wet conditions. That works for me down into the teens, as long as I don't stop riding. A second 150g/m wool shirt is helpful in colder conditions. This works for me from about 10 to 105 degrees.
WindStopper briefs are very nice in wet conditions around freezing and also take up very little weight or space if not worn. Wearing thin padded shorts also works almost as well for me.
I am still working on legs and feet, but I like nylon leg warmers for cold, wet, and sun protection. For feet I have had some success with Gore Tex sock and inverted dry suit ankle seals to keep my feet reliably dry in 12-hour downpours. However, they aren't the most comfortable in better weather. I am now trying out thin wool socks with a second heavy wool layer for cold conditions and drying if rain lets up.
I like to carry a refilled eye-drops container with my favorite chain lube for extended rain riding to keep from completely wearing out the drive train. After a friend almost used my volatile lube for eye drops I recommend clearly relabeling the bottle.
Bike Route Toaster created TCX courses on a Garmin help me a lot with navigation, although I would like to try out other offerings from Ride With GPS. I would also like to get more reliability out of the Garmin products. A small 4xAA external battery pack gives around 40 hours of operation and extra batteries take care of a 1200k, but Garmin reliability is still iffy. The 800 appears to crash very hard after around 450km unless the course is reset before the crash, although that may have been fixed in the last firmware. They also fail in various other ways for sometimes unknown reasons.
Kole Kantner
Seattle, WA
On 1/17/12 11:16 AM, Jim House wrote:
Jan,
For me it always runs this way - no matter how much I carry, I find out that there is ALWAYS something that I do not have when I need to have it…
At PBP it was a fourth backup connection cable for my Garmin – only after the first three failed for the first time ever.
Jim House
Maumee, OH
From: ran...@googlegroups.com [mailto:ran...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Jan Heine
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2012 10:02 AM
To: Old5ten; roadijeff
Cc: randon
Subject: Re: [Randon] Re: Carbon
At 6:49 PM -0800 1/16/12, Old5ten wrote:
On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 2:02 PM, roadijeff <road...@aol.com> wrote:
Haven't needed any of the other stuff in 4 PBPs now.
yeah, imho some riders take way too much stuff, but i guess everyone has their own balance of need, want, and unnecessary.
I took way too much stuff last year. I carried a lot of food I could not eat after the heat of the first day.
But I also found that the extra weight didn't slow me down.
I analyzed my PBP time recently, and the main reason I was 3 hours slower than in 2007 was weather-related. I stopped to warm up, and I also needed to eat food at every control, as I could not stomach my bars any longer. My bike actually was lighter this year than the one used in 2007, but being completely unsupported, I carried a little more food in my handlebar bag.
If I could have eaten normally, being able to eat on the go from my handlebar bag would have kept my stops shorter, and would have been well worth the extra weight.
When you do the math, as we did in a simulation that we published in Bicycle Quarterly, you realize that an extra 1 kg (2.2 lb) will add only between 7 and 20 minutes to your entire PBP, depending on how fast you are. (Less for faster riders, whose main resistance is aerodynamic.)
Compared to using faster tires (which easily can save hours) or lowering your stem by 20 mm, the speed difference due to weight is inconsequential. And all bike-related performance improvements pale compared to the time you can save if you spend less time off the bike. This is why a comfortable bike that keeps you dry usually will be faster overall, even if it may be slightly slower on the road.
And some of the stuff I didn't think I'd need, like my Gore-Tex shell gloves, came in handy when I hit an unforecast 10-hour thunderstorm.
I try to pare down my load to a minimum - for example, I rarely carry more than 2 inner tubes, relying on glueless patches in the rare event of having more than two flats - but I also found it is better to be prepared than not to have what you need.
Jan Heine
Editor
At 1:08 PM -0800 1/17/12, Old5ten wrote:
i'm not quite sure about your simulation, since i haven't seen it, but it's hard to model fatigue accurately. it goes way beyond the simple physics of x feet of gain over y miles at z power with a particular weight.
You make a good point.
The fatigue comes in because a slower bike will keep you on the course longer. But if you are looking at spending an extra 7 to 20 minutes on the bike during PBP, I don't think the extra fatigue is a major factor.
Weight is a factor that is easy to measure, and thus easy to obsess about.
In real-life randonneuring, it is one of the least important factors determining most riders' performance.
Where weight can play a role is when you ride in a group. If 20 riders climb a 3-km hill with the same power output, but one of the 20 has a bike that is 5 lb. heavier, then that rider might arrive at the top 5 seconds later, and thus is dropped.
If you ride by yourself or with friends who wait for you at the top, then 3 seconds per hill isn't going to make a large difference even on a hilly course like PBP. (100 hills x 3 seconds = 5 minutes)
Bike Route Toaster created TCX courses on a Garmin help me a lot with navigation, although I would like to try out other offerings from Ride With GPS.� I would also like to get more reliability out of the Garmin products.� A small 4xAA external battery pack gives around 40 hours of operation and extra batteries take care of a 1200k, but Garmin reliability is still iffy.� The 800 appears to crash very hard after around 450km unless the course is reset before the crash, although that may have been fixed in the last firmware.� They also fail in various other ways for sometimes unknown reasons.
I couldn’t agree more Jim (about the plastic bags). Stuffing a few of these in the bottom of your bag adds virtually no weight and takes up very little space. Even if you don’t ever use them they provide considerable piece of mind, especially if you live in a colder climate. I consider packing these akin to emergency preparedness.
Another great space/weight to utility item is a pair of latex medical gloves. Should you encounter a freezing rain you will be glad to have these to augment your over-gloves.
Jason Marshall
RUSA 6806
Chicago, Il
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--
Jan said something of the sort in his recent review of the Calfee in BQ.
Calfee responded that mounting racks that way on carbon isn't a great
idea because carbon is brittle and cracks when stressed the wrong way.
If a bike with a rack fell over the stress on the rack mounts could
split the seat stays. If, on the other hand, the rack was mounted with
P clamps, the clamps would slip, preserving the carbon.
I think you will find that review of tremendous interest. Vol. 10 No 1,
Autumn 2011. http://www.bikequarterly.com/BQ101.html Here's the bike
in question: http://www.bikequarterly.com/images/CalfeeFull800.jpg
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Volagi is headed down the comfort road, for ultra cyclists, and while they do not have everything on your wish list, they will allow for wide tires, which is the most important first step.
Dan Driscoll
RUSA #390
Lone Star Randonneurs RBA
From: ran...@googlegroups.com [mailto:ran...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Richard Glover
Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2012 7:22 AM
Cc: randon
Subject: Re: [Randon] Carbon
One of my best finds is a set of Subway bags – I always carry then – emergency gloves as well as sox covers just in cast – it will add at least 30 degrees to either my hands or feet and only weigh a few grams.
Hampsten did a carbon Toursenol a few years back.
Actually constructed by Parlee.
A friend in Charlotte has one I occasionally see.
But the Parlee pricing went out of sight so they dropped the model.
It was very light weight.
A number where used in PBP 2007.
There may be a few used ones floating around but not a lot were built.
At the last PBP 2011 I was surprised by the number of Europeans that just used a conventional carbon racing frame with battery powered lights strapped to the bars.
Rob Dayton
Charlotte,NC
USA
From: ran...@googlegroups.com [mailto:ran...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Richard Glover
Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2012 8:22 AM
Cc: randon
Subject: Re: [Randon] Carbon
Might want to check out what Volagi is doing.
At the last PBP 2011 I was surprised by the number of Europeans that just used a conventional carbon racing frame with battery powered lights strapped to the bars.