Carbon
Sol
custom made ten years ago. The maker now only builds Carbon frames.
I have done three brevet series, a 1000k and PBP. I like this sport.
I like a front bag, a rear bag, lights and dynamos, the classics. Is
it possible to set up a carbon bike for a true Randonneuring
experience? Have you done it? Thanks Sol Ameen
Old5ten
elmar
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "randon" group.
To post to this group, send email to ran...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to randon+un...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/randon?hl=en.
Emily O'Brien
carbon as a material that precludes things like fender eyelets, light
mounts, rack mounts, etc. There's presumably no reason the builder
couldn't build you the same geometry with the same features that you
had before. Presumably the builder has his reasons for using only
carbon now, so you could at least find out what they are. Plenty of
people swear by their carbon brevet bikes and plenty of people swear
by their steel ones. If you decide that going back to the builder you
know, trust, and have had good experiences with, you'll have to take
his word for it if he tells you you'll be happy with a carbon frame.
If you decide that getting a steel rando bike is a higher priority,
there are any number of builders who will be able to do what you want.
I'm pretty sure that the only way to get a "fake" randonneuring
experience would be to ride in the sidecar of a motorcycle. Or in a
luxury motor home being driven by your butler, while nibbling delicate
hors d'oeuvres of a sort that wouldn't survive a trip in and out of a
handlebar bag and watching the brevet on TV.
Emily "only half-true [steel, but only raceblade fenders]" O'Brien
-----------------------------------
Dill Pickle
... gear for the extra mile
www.dillpicklegear.com
-----------------------------------
Eric Keller
January first I wrecked my bike (steel frame) on a ride. It was
custom made ten years ago. The maker now only builds Carbon frames.
Don't know if you can really duplicate a low-trail highly integrated frame in carbon. You can get fairly close, but it's non-trivial to do.
Eric Keller
Boalsburg, Pennsylvania
Jan Heine
Editor
li...@jkassen.org
FWIW, I've used a stock front carbon fork for my first few SR series plus PBP. I now use it daily for commuting. It's plenty
wide enough for large (35mm+) tires and fenders.
Lots of modern carbon cyclocross bikes would also make good Randonneuring bikes so I would suspect it's possible to
make what you want in carbon. If the only problem is the fork rake you could find a steel fork you like and ask your
builder to design around it. Perhaps your existing fork is still useable for this purpose.
Jake
Joel
I rode a Colnago C40 in PBP 2003. I actually made a decision to ride
that vs my Richard Sachs steel bike because of the weight difference.
I used a Vaude/Detours seat bag with a small handlebar bag, and a
Schmidt hub and light.
In 2007 I had a custom carbon bike made (Hampston Bikes) that allowed
me to have a front rack, rear rack, fenders, etc. I ended up using a
Barley seat bag, small handlebar bag and the usual Schmidt hub/light.
You can have a "true" rando experience on any bike. Just get something
you like.
Joel
roadijeff
On Jan 15, 11:28 am, Old5ten <old5t...@gmail.com> wrote:
> hmmmm... i felt i had a 'true' randonneuring experience on a carbon frame,
> no front bag, no dynamo, no classics. that would include pbp in 2007,
> without <gasp> fenders...
was great not having to concern myself with spare batteries or bulbs.
Haven't needed any of the other stuff in 4 PBPs now. Looking forward
to #5 in 3 more years.
Old5ten
Haven't needed any of the other stuff in 4 PBPs now.
yeah, imho some riders take way too much stuff, but i guess everyone has their own balance of need, want, and unnecessary.
Looking forward
to #5 in 3 more years.
elmar
Jan Heine
On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 2:02 PM, roadijeff <road...@aol.com> wrote:
Haven't needed any of the other stuff in 4 PBPs now.
yeah, imho some riders take way too much stuff, but i guess everyone has their own balance of need, want, and unnecessary.
--
Jim House
Jan,
For me it always runs this way - no matter how much I carry, I find out that there is ALWAYS something that I do not have when I need to have it…
At PBP it was a fourth backup connection cable for my Garmin – only after the first three failed for the first time ever.
Jim House
Maumee, OH
--
Old5ten
At 6:49 PM -0800 1/16/12, Old5ten wrote:
On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 2:02 PM, roadijeff <road...@aol.com> wrote:
Haven't needed any of the other stuff in 4 PBPs now.
yeah, imho some riders take way too much stuff, but i guess everyone has their own balance of need, want, and unnecessary.
When you do the math, as we did in a simulation that we published in Bicycle Quarterly, you realize that an extra 1 kg (2.2 lb) will add only between 7 and 20 minutes to your entire PBP, depending on how fast you are. (Less for faster riders, whose main resistance is aerodynamic.)
Compared to using faster tires (which easily can save hours) or lowering your stem by 20 mm, the speed difference due to weight is inconsequential. And all bike-related performance improvements pale compared to the time you can save if you spend less time off the bike. This is why a comfortable bike that keeps you dry usually will be faster overall, even if it may be slightly slower on the road.
Steve Palincsar
>
> i'm not quite sure about your simulation, since i haven't seen it, but
> it's hard to model fatigue accurately. it goes way beyond the simple
> physics of x feet of gain over y miles at z power with a particular
> weight.
It's also hard to estimate the actual impact of some real world weight
differences. Do you notice the weight gain from drinking a liter of
water (or the weight loss when you take a "natural break") and does that
weight gain induce fatigue - or dispel it?
Jan Heine
>i'm not quite sure about your simulation, since i haven't seen it,
>but it's hard to model fatigue accurately. it goes way beyond the
>simple physics of x feet of gain over y miles at z power with a
>particular weight.
You make a good point.
The fatigue comes in because a slower bike will keep you on the
course longer. But if you are looking at spending an extra 7 to 20
minutes on the bike during PBP, I don't think the extra fatigue is a
major factor.
Weight is a factor that is easy to measure, and thus easy to obsess
about. In real-life randonneuring, it is one of the least important
factors determining most riders' performance.
Where weight can play a role is when you ride in a group. If 20
riders climb a 3-km hill with the same power output, but one of the
20 has a bike that is 5 lb. heavier, then that rider might arrive at
the top 5 seconds later, and thus is dropped.
If you ride by yourself or with friends who wait for you at the top,
then 3 seconds per hill isn't going to make a large difference even
on a hilly course like PBP. (100 hills x 3 seconds = 5 minutes)
Kole Kantner
Other ideas:
Carry a small bright 1xAAA helmet light like the Fenix LD01 that gives usable riding light for 7 hours per battery in case my dynamo system fails.� That light weighs an ounce with the battery and also runs 27 hours on the dimmer setting.
Use full finger gloves and carry a waterproof shell like the Outdoor Research lobster shell that weigh an ounce or two and takes up almost no space.� That suffices for me down to 10 or 20 degrees F.
Use wool long sleeve thin shirts and carry a thin Goretex jacket for cold or wet conditions.� That works for me down into the teens, as long as I don't stop riding.� A second 150g/m wool shirt is helpful in colder conditions.� This works for me from about 10 to 105 degrees.
WindStopper briefs are very nice in wet conditions around freezing and also take up very little weight or space if not worn. Wearing thin padded shorts also works almost as well for me.
I am still working on legs and feet, but I like nylon leg warmers for cold, wet, and sun protection.� For feet I have had some success with Gore Tex sock and inverted dry suit ankle seals to keep my feet reliably dry in 12-hour downpours.� However, they aren't the most comfortable in better weather.� I am now trying out thin wool socks with a second heavy wool layer for cold conditions and drying if rain lets up.
I like to carry a refilled eye-drops container with my favorite chain lube for extended rain riding to keep from completely wearing out the drive train.� After a friend almost used my volatile lube for eye drops I recommend clearly relabeling the bottle.
Bike Route Toaster created TCX courses on a Garmin help me a lot with navigation, although I would like to try out other offerings from Ride With GPS.� I would also like to get more reliability out of the Garmin products.� A small 4xAA external battery pack gives around 40 hours of operation and extra batteries take care of a 1200k, but Garmin reliability is still iffy.� The 800 appears to crash very hard after around 450km unless the course is reset before the crash, although that may have been fixed in the last firmware.� They also fail in various other ways for sometimes unknown reasons.
Kole Kantner
Seattle, WA
On 1/17/12 11:16 AM, Jim House wrote:
Jan,
�
For me it always runs this way - no matter how much I carry, I find out that there is ALWAYS something that I do not have when I need to have it�
At PBP it was a fourth backup connection cable for my Garmin � only after the first three failed for the first time ever.
�
Jim House
Maumee, OH
�
From: ran...@googlegroups.com [mailto:ran...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Jan Heine
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2012 10:02 AM
To: Old5ten; roadijeff
Cc: randon
Subject: Re: [Randon] Re: Carbon
�
At 6:49 PM -0800 1/16/12, Old5ten wrote:
On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 2:02 PM, roadijeff <road...@aol.com> wrote:
Haven't needed any of the other stuff in 4 PBPs now.��
yeah, imho some riders take way too much stuff, but i guess everyone has their own balance of need, want, and unnecessary.
�
I took way too much stuff last year. I carried a lot of food I could not eat after the heat of the first day.
�
But I also found that the extra weight didn't slow me down.
�
I analyzed my PBP time recently, and the main reason I was 3 hours slower than in 2007 was weather-related. I stopped to warm up, and I also needed to eat food at every control, as I could not stomach my bars any longer. My bike actually was lighter this year than the one used in 2007, but being completely unsupported, I carried a little more food in my handlebar bag.
�
If I could have eaten normally, being able to eat on the go from my handlebar bag would have kept my stops shorter, and would have been well worth the extra weight.
�
When you do the math, as we did in a simulation that we published in Bicycle Quarterly, you realize that an extra 1 kg (2.2 lb) will add only between 7 and 20 minutes to your entire PBP, depending on how fast you are. (Less for faster riders, whose main resistance is aerodynamic.)
�
Compared to using faster tires (which easily can save hours) or lowering your stem by 20 mm, the speed difference due to weight is inconsequential. And all bike-related performance improvements pale compared to the time you can save if you spend less time off the bike. This is why a comfortable bike that keeps you dry usually will be faster overall, even if it may be slightly slower on the road.
�
And some of the stuff I didn't think I'd need, like my Gore-Tex shell gloves, came in handy when I hit an unforecast 10-hour thunderstorm.
�
I try to pare down my load to a minimum - for example, I rarely carry more than 2 inner tubes, relying on glueless patches in the rare event of having more than two flats - but I also found it is better to be prepared than not to have what you need.
�
Jan Heine
EditorBicycle Quarterly
Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/
----
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "randon" group.
To post to this group, send email to ran...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to randon+un...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/randon?hl=en.
Jim House
Kole,
One of my best finds is a set of Subway bags – I always carry then – emergency gloves as well as sox covers just in cast – it will add at least 30 degrees to either my hands or feet and only weigh a few grams.
Jim House
Maumee, OH
From: ran...@googlegroups.com [mailto:ran...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Kole Kantner
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2012 7:32 PM
To: ran...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Randon] Re: Carbon
Since there will always be something we don't have when we need it, gaining flexibility on making do with existing resources seems like a great idea. Determining the critical needed items with key backups is also necessary. There is always a chance electronic items like a Garmin will fail and then a cue sheet in a zip-lock bag would be helpful. Learning to make do with less can be fun, as long as it isn't too life threatening. I suppose I should carry cue sheets more often, but I'll also consider a backup Garmin and 4xAA battery pack. I am also thinking of the most efficient way purchase on the route an emergency couple thousand calories for long unsupported stretches when I can't resupply for unforeseen reasons.
Other ideas:
Carry a small bright 1xAAA helmet light like the Fenix LD01 that gives usable riding light for 7 hours per battery in case my dynamo system fails. That light weighs an ounce with the battery and also runs 27 hours on the dimmer setting.
Use full finger gloves and carry a waterproof shell like the Outdoor Research lobster shell that weigh an ounce or two and takes up almost no space. That suffices for me down to 10 or 20 degrees F.
Use wool long sleeve thin shirts and carry a thin Goretex jacket for cold or wet conditions. That works for me down into the teens, as long as I don't stop riding. A second 150g/m wool shirt is helpful in colder conditions. This works for me from about 10 to 105 degrees.
WindStopper briefs are very nice in wet conditions around freezing and also take up very little weight or space if not worn. Wearing thin padded shorts also works almost as well for me.
I am still working on legs and feet, but I like nylon leg warmers for cold, wet, and sun protection. For feet I have had some success with Gore Tex sock and inverted dry suit ankle seals to keep my feet reliably dry in 12-hour downpours. However, they aren't the most comfortable in better weather. I am now trying out thin wool socks with a second heavy wool layer for cold conditions and drying if rain lets up.
I like to carry a refilled eye-drops container with my favorite chain lube for extended rain riding to keep from completely wearing out the drive train. After a friend almost used my volatile lube for eye drops I recommend clearly relabeling the bottle.
Bike Route Toaster created TCX courses on a Garmin help me a lot with navigation, although I would like to try out other offerings from Ride With GPS. I would also like to get more reliability out of the Garmin products. A small 4xAA external battery pack gives around 40 hours of operation and extra batteries take care of a 1200k, but Garmin reliability is still iffy. The 800 appears to crash very hard after around 450km unless the course is reset before the crash, although that may have been fixed in the last firmware. They also fail in various other ways for sometimes unknown reasons.
Kole Kantner
Seattle, WA
On 1/17/12 11:16 AM, Jim House wrote:
Jan,
For me it always runs this way - no matter how much I carry, I find out that there is ALWAYS something that I do not have when I need to have it…
At PBP it was a fourth backup connection cable for my Garmin – only after the first three failed for the first time ever.
Jim House
Maumee, OH
From: ran...@googlegroups.com [mailto:ran...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Jan Heine
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2012 10:02 AM
To: Old5ten; roadijeff
Cc: randon
Subject: Re: [Randon] Re: Carbon
At 6:49 PM -0800 1/16/12, Old5ten wrote:
On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 2:02 PM, roadijeff <road...@aol.com> wrote:
Haven't needed any of the other stuff in 4 PBPs now.
yeah, imho some riders take way too much stuff, but i guess everyone has their own balance of need, want, and unnecessary.
I took way too much stuff last year. I carried a lot of food I could not eat after the heat of the first day.
But I also found that the extra weight didn't slow me down.
I analyzed my PBP time recently, and the main reason I was 3 hours slower than in 2007 was weather-related. I stopped to warm up, and I also needed to eat food at every control, as I could not stomach my bars any longer. My bike actually was lighter this year than the one used in 2007, but being completely unsupported, I carried a little more food in my handlebar bag.
If I could have eaten normally, being able to eat on the go from my handlebar bag would have kept my stops shorter, and would have been well worth the extra weight.
When you do the math, as we did in a simulation that we published in Bicycle Quarterly, you realize that an extra 1 kg (2.2 lb) will add only between 7 and 20 minutes to your entire PBP, depending on how fast you are. (Less for faster riders, whose main resistance is aerodynamic.)
Compared to using faster tires (which easily can save hours) or lowering your stem by 20 mm, the speed difference due to weight is inconsequential. And all bike-related performance improvements pale compared to the time you can save if you spend less time off the bike. This is why a comfortable bike that keeps you dry usually will be faster overall, even if it may be slightly slower on the road.
And some of the stuff I didn't think I'd need, like my Gore-Tex shell gloves, came in handy when I hit an unforecast 10-hour thunderstorm.
I try to pare down my load to a minimum - for example, I rarely carry more than 2 inner tubes, relying on glueless patches in the rare event of having more than two flats - but I also found it is better to be prepared than not to have what you need.
Jan Heine
Editor
Old5ten
At 1:08 PM -0800 1/17/12, Old5ten wrote:
i'm not quite sure about your simulation, since i haven't seen it, but it's hard to model fatigue accurately. it goes way beyond the simple physics of x feet of gain over y miles at z power with a particular weight.
You make a good point.
The fatigue comes in because a slower bike will keep you on the course longer. But if you are looking at spending an extra 7 to 20 minutes on the bike during PBP, I don't think the extra fatigue is a major factor.
Weight is a factor that is easy to measure, and thus easy to obsess about.
weight yes, impact no. most modeling of the influence of weight (maybe we should call it mass) is static. riding, especially endless hills, is a very dynamic process. i'm thinking more in terms of the number of accelerations and overcoming inertia again, and again, and again... so, while a simple calculation may give you 7-20 minutes (one can actually get that with quite reasonable weight differences on a flat 750mi course with constant speed), the actual time lost may be far greater. average power/speed can be derived in many different ways. most basic bike modeling involves constant power/speed which makes a decent predictor for flat time trials, but not much else.
depending on your motivation, even 7 to 20 minutes on PBP could be quite significant. it could be the difference between becoming an ancien at 90:00 or not at 90:20. it could also be the difference between 50:00 and 49:53 8^)
i fully agree that aerodynamics plays a far greater role in this scenario than weight and that rolling resistance is an important factor, however i would not discount weight.
In real-life randonneuring, it is one of the least important factors determining most riders' performance.
Where weight can play a role is when you ride in a group. If 20 riders climb a 3-km hill with the same power output, but one of the 20 has a bike that is 5 lb. heavier, then that rider might arrive at the top 5 seconds later, and thus is dropped.
If you ride by yourself or with friends who wait for you at the top, then 3 seconds per hill isn't going to make a large difference even on a hilly course like PBP. (100 hills x 3 seconds = 5 minutes)
hmmm... a number of things on this one:
1. it depends on the grade!
2. using 2mi at 5% i get closer to 15-20 seconds.
3. once again, this is a very simplistic and static model.
i don't really remember a hundred 2mi hills at PBP, so that's not really an issue.
we might get a closer approximation of the fatigue level i'm referring to by doing an actual experiment: stand at a stop sign with a heavy bike (lets say somewhere in the 30+ lbs range because steel is real and we need all the trimmings [front an rear bags full of goodies, dynamo hub and sturdy 32-spoke bomber wheels, fenders, etc.) and a light bike (lets say somewhere around 16 lbs, with a nice set of light wheels [let's say zipp 303s because they're my favorite]). now start and accelerate up to speed, let's say 15 mph (because that seems like a decent randonneur speed). stop and try again. repeat a few hundred times and report back on which is faster and less fatiguing. we'll call it an experiment, not modeling. good luck!
elmar
Yiping Lin
Bike Route Toaster created TCX courses on a Garmin help me a lot with navigation, although I would like to try out other offerings from Ride With GPS.� I would also like to get more reliability out of the Garmin products.� A small 4xAA external battery pack gives around 40 hours of operation and extra batteries take care of a 1200k, but Garmin reliability is still iffy.� The 800 appears to crash very hard after around 450km unless the course is reset before the crash, although that may have been fixed in the last firmware.� They also fail in various other ways for sometimes unknown reasons.
I don't see what more options Ride with GPS can provide than Bike Route Toaster.
Play around with the settings on the Options in BRT
* Speed On Flat
* Climbing Speed
(save the settings before drawing or importing your route) You can get some idea of your course time.
I have used that function for all the brevets in 2011 & PBP.
Garmin Edge products are not very stable so it's better to save the activity after some distance. I actually split the route into sections based on controls. Even when I have to reboot Garmin (therefore some information of that activity is lost), it can still continue to navigate the course. That's enough.
Of course, I do carry a backup for Garmin: a simple wired bike computer that can show the distance and the cuesheet
Yiping
user of Edge 500
Jason Marshall
I couldn’t agree more Jim (about the plastic bags). Stuffing a few of these in the bottom of your bag adds virtually no weight and takes up very little space. Even if you don’t ever use them they provide considerable piece of mind, especially if you live in a colder climate. I consider packing these akin to emergency preparedness.
Another great space/weight to utility item is a pair of latex medical gloves. Should you encounter a freezing rain you will be glad to have these to augment your over-gloves.
Jason Marshall
RUSA 6806
Chicago, Il
*************************************************************************************************************************
This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. Please note that any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of C.H. Robinson Worldwide. C.H. Robinson Worldwide accepts no liability for any damage caused by any virus transmitted by this email.
C.H. Robinson Worldwide, 14701 Charlson Road, Eden Prairie, MN, USA
*************************************************************************************************************************
Mark Wolff
MW
Bill Olsen
Bill - I had thought to change the subject line, but then I DO regularly ride carbon bike frames ... that is, carbon steel.
From: Jason.M...@mytmc.com
To: jho...@ccsol.com; kkan...@gmail.com; ran...@googlegroups.com
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 08:52:16 -0600
Richard Glover
Thomas Durkin
Tom Durkin
Portland, OR
m meiser
I would love to see a traditional randoneering bike done in carbon
This would include front and rear rack mounts including
# mid fork eyelets for a front rack
# double eyelets on the front fork dropouts for fenders and racks
# fender / rack / brake mount points on the crown of the fork
# linear pull / v-brake mounts on the front fork
# eyelets near the rear dropout for racks, possibly double eyelets for seperate fender mounts as well
# seat stay mounts for a rack
# seat stay mounts for a fender
# a chainstay mount for a fender
# potentially a kickstand plate!? ...for a plesher kickstand... not sure this would even be doable in carbon, lol! The bike falling on the kickstand could crack the frame... lol.
# potential third water bottle mount underneath the down tube
# v-brake / linear pull brake mounts on the rear chain stay
In addition there would be various geometry changes
# longer chainstays for a more plush ride at longer distances
# more relaxed seat and head tube angle for more plush ride and better tracking under load.
# increased tire and fender clearance
In summary there is no reason why any of this can't technically be done. The only reason it hasn't to my limited knowlege is because the development of carbon bikes has been largely driven by racing. It hasn't occured to anyone or I should say noone has dropped a wad of cash in a carbon frame builders lap and said... "make me a carbon randoneering bike".
Some might say that randoneering with it's fenders and extra racks and gear make it pointless to create a randoneering bike in lightweight carbon, but I say emphatically hogwash. I come from a touring and bikepacking background and you haven't lived until you've ridden down the great divide on a 30-35 lb fully loaded titanium 29'r touring bike complete with bivy, sleeping bag and all your self supported gear. Nor ridden 31lb fully loaded road bike across the country in a self supported tour. Nor done the iditarod invitational on a 45 lb fat tires snowbike setup with zero degree bag.
The point is just because you carry some chamois creme, a rain jacket, a spare pair of shorts, some lunch, and have fenders does not mean weigh doesn't matter and doesn't matter in a big way. It is most obvious on rough roads, off road, in snow, in mud, throwing the bike over a fence... carrying it up stares. Weight always matters. I always scrutinize every ounce.
That said if you do go with carbon randoneering bike you probably would of course want to reconsider other gear choices as well... of course.
In summary.
Much as I love the old school steel randoneering bikes. I would applaud you if you were the first person to fund a custom carbon randonnering bike and would absolutely love to see the finished result.
That said... there's another reason it hasn't been done. Have you considered titanium? Do it's supple flexibility it lends itself better to the creation of a plush and lightweight randoneering bike.
Carbon CAN be flexible... we've come a long way since the early Kestrel carbon frames that were stiff as hell. Indeed we're already well into the era of wildly flex tuned carbon. The big players like Trek, Specialized and Cannondale have all been perfecting "bi-directional flexion" (for lack of a better term) in chain stays to give vertical suppleness while keeping horizontal and torsional rigidity to the drive train.
Well... that's where stop... because I fear that last sentence or two might not have completely made sense.
But I hope someone builds a carbon randoneering bike, and posts the pictures to prove it. Soon. :)
-Mike
--
Steve Palincsar
Jan said something of the sort in his recent review of the Calfee in BQ.
Calfee responded that mounting racks that way on carbon isn't a great
idea because carbon is brittle and cracks when stressed the wrong way.
If a bike with a rack fell over the stress on the rack mounts could
split the seat stays. If, on the other hand, the rack was mounted with
P clamps, the clamps would slip, preserving the carbon.
I think you will find that review of tremendous interest. Vol. 10 No 1,
Autumn 2011. http://www.bikequarterly.com/BQ101.html Here's the bike
in question: http://www.bikequarterly.com/images/CalfeeFull800.jpg
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/randon?hl=en.
>
>
>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "randon" group.
> To post to this group, send email to ran...@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to randon
Richard Glover
You cannot help the poor by destroying the rich.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to randon+un...@googlegroups.com.
Dan Driscoll
Volagi is headed down the comfort road, for ultra cyclists, and while they do not have everything on your wish list, they will allow for wide tires, which is the most important first step.
Dan Driscoll
RUSA #390
Lone Star Randonneurs RBA
From: ran...@googlegroups.com [mailto:ran...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Richard Glover
Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2012 7:22 AM
Cc: randon
Subject: Re: [Randon] Carbon
Bill Pustow
Bill Pustow
Sent from my iPhone
WMdeR
Crumpton has done a randonneuring bike in carbon-fiber. Fully
integrated, but with medium trail and limited to 28mm tires. I
believe in 2006. He's done others since....
Craig Calfee reportedly won't put spools on his seatstays, as the
carbon fiber is brittle and he doesn't want to risk a failure if a
rack gets whacked.
I don't know about IF, Parlee, Argonaut, or Serotta.
All these fellows use stock forks, which effectively limit your
geometry choices and tire selection to 1. narrow 700C wheels (Road
forks) with caliper brakes or wide(r) 700C wheels (CX forks) with
cantilevers.
Low trail isn't an easy option, either, regardless of which stock fork
you choose, so a British-style Audax bike (Saddlebag + map holder)
probably works fine and is relatively straightforward to do for the
builder, but a front-loading setup won't be optimal.
Drifting afield....
Finally, how much weight do you save? An integrated 59.5cm steel
frame (with a standard-diameter, light gauge tube spec) weighs 1830g
plus another 875g for the fork, including frame-saver internal
coating, internal wiring, and the aluminum headset cups. Call it 6lb.
I'd be very surprised if you get much below 1300g for the same size
frame in carbon and 600g for the fork (check CX frame/fork weights in
size large or XL for a comparison of bikes set up with cantilever
brakes and wider tires but without the reinforcement for rack
mounts). That's 4.2lb, probably a bit more for wiring and headset
cups.
The net weight savings is around two pounds. That's not nothing, but
if the bike fits and performs well for you, how big a difference does
it make?
Based on my modeling of a hilly 1230K time trial (the 2011 PBP route,
as published by the ACP on Openrunner.com), the difference between
84Kg and 82.5Kg all-up weight (including all luggage, the rider, etc),
is 0.2 to 0.4 hour--12-24min--depending on your average power output.
A kilo and a half is 3 pounds and change. Again, it isn't a zero
difference, but not earth-shattering either.
For a trivial example, I went from 67.5Kg the day before PBP to 64.8Kg
the day after, and my bike weight varied by 1.5Kg at nearly every
stop--full vs empty waterbottles.
I (with the gram scale and spreadsheet) am hardly one to recommend
carrying any more weight than you have to, and I manage my diet and
choose equipment accordingly, but 2-3lb is probably down in the noise
for big rides.
Even for a short hillclimb, the difference (with a 150lb rider)
between a 15lb bike and a 18lb bike is 1.8%. If there aren't other
performance differences between the two machines, you're talking 2-3
minutes when climbing Mt. Evans from Idaho Springs, CO. That's the
difference between winning a race and being off the podium (at the Bob
Cook Memorial) some years, but other performance factors, even
equipment related, swamp that change....
Obviously, if the difference means you can't hang with a given group,
the difference will be much more--I'm not accounting for drafting
effects in my modeling, though it is a fully-dynamic model (minus
rotational acceleration, which really is trivial compared to
accelerating the full system mass).
Best Regards,
Will
William M. deRosset
Fort Collins, CO
WMdeR
Update: I stand corrected. The current generation of superlight CX
forks are around 450g, not 600g as I reported.
Cheers,
Will
Michael Meiser
One of my best finds is a set of Subway bags – I always carry then – emergency gloves as well as sox covers just in cast – it will add at least 30 degrees to either my hands or feet and only weigh a few grams.
I like. My favorite is grocery store produce bags. Both are equaly valid. Great to have two sources now. -MM
Rob Dayton
Hampsten did a carbon Toursenol a few years back.
Actually constructed by Parlee.
A friend in Charlotte has one I occasionally see.
But the Parlee pricing went out of sight so they dropped the model.
It was very light weight.
A number where used in PBP 2007.
There may be a few used ones floating around but not a lot were built.
At the last PBP 2011 I was surprised by the number of Europeans that just used a conventional carbon racing frame with battery powered lights strapped to the bars.
Rob Dayton
Charlotte,NC
USA
From: ran...@googlegroups.com [mailto:ran...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Richard Glover
Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2012 8:22 AM
Cc: randon
Subject: Re: [Randon] Carbon
Might want to check out what Volagi is doing.
Eric Keller
At the last PBP 2011 I was surprised by the number of Europeans that just used a conventional carbon racing frame with battery powered lights strapped to the bars.
Eric Keller
Boalsburg, Pennsylvania
vdavis
racks. It has the longer chainstays, higher headtube and more relaxed
geometry you describe. It is very light. I rode it on PBP last summer
and it was very comfortable... I've had no problems with it. For me
it's the perfect long-distance carbon bike. It has side-pull brakes
but they are wider caliper so accept larger tires up to 28. It is not
grotesquely expensive. It's a very good off-the-rack rando bike. Some
day I might go for an expensive custom titanium frame, but for now
this bike does everything I need it to do. Comes in women's-specific
geometry as well.
Norton
great success; never a problem