Riverside Metro Map

[shrinipedia]

Based on suggestions by Amit here.
http://aparanjape.wordpress.com/2012/06/10/elevated-riverside-metro-in-pune/

I have made a conceptual map of an alternate RiverSide Pune Metro with 2 lines running along the Mula-Mutha with option for a 3rd metro alongside the Mumbai Pune Railway track.

https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msa=0&msid=215478032620562513915.0004c34fe234ba21c574d

[Ranjit Gadgil]

The point is not really about where one can put a Metro, but whether the projected ridership really requires a Metro and whether the cost is justified, whether there are alternatives that can get the job done and finally does the city have the ability to integrate land use and transport.

-- Ranjit

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[Vijay Patil]

If "construction" issues are to be avoided then why not use existing Indian railways tracks? What is benefit of letting long-distances trains pass through heart of the city, when the route could be used by local trains? Please see relevant thread and maps here:

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/pttfgen/r3f1qqFoSzU/q18Dt2KRMV8J

Also note that this is not going to be just a "metro" project, this is going to be "metro + high FSI buildings" along the metro route project. Not sure route along the river is "convenient" for this "metro + high FSI buildings" mega-project.

To add to what Ranjit said, there MUST be a per-requisite (conditions) on the performance of existing transportation agencies (and their elected officials) BEFORE they are trusted with any new projects (no matter details like route etc.). Isn't this common sense?
As an analogy: Would you give a very expensive Gun in someone's hand who you don't trust with a knife?

--
Vijay

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Vijay Patil

[shrinipedia]

I am not promoting this metro line. I just meant to show how connectivity can be achieved/improved without disrupting existing road network.
You could very well replace the metro with a 6/8 lane riverside controlled access freeway/expressway with exits every 1-2 km - which will probably cost the city the same, but would completely offload the main arterial roads from long distance commuter traffic.

I frankly oppose the Metro as it stands anywhere in Pune -
I lived through the Construction of (and now sometimes use) the $2billion Phoenix Metro Light Rail   which cuts through the Phoenix Metro area
http://routes.valleymetro.org/timetables/785/transit_route?type=1 
 This didnt disrupt traffic as much as people anticipated - but businesses along the corridor were hit badly

. - Also The cost of construction, maintenance and operation of a metro is humongous - there is no scope for private operators to every break even - See how the Delhi Airport- Metro link line is shut down due to the non profitability of the system.

A Freeway is also expensive, but the local authority only has to maintain just the freeway and avoid congestion using metered ramps and not the actual vehicles that run on it.

The only reason the river corridor seems more viable is that land acquisition in India has become a headache and using the river banks for placing the elevation pillars will be very quick.

- S

On Sunday, July 8, 2012 11:11:52 AM UTC-7, Vijay Patil wrote:

If "construction" issues are to be avoided then why not use existing Indian railways tracks? What is benefit of letting long-distances trains pass through heart of the city, when the route could be used by local trains? Please see relevant thread and maps here:

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/pttfgen/r3f1qqFoSzU/q18Dt2KRMV8J

Also note that this is not going to be just a "metro" project, this is going to be "metro + high FSI buildings" along the metro route project. Not sure route along the river is "convenient" for this "metro + high FSI buildings" mega-project.

To add to what Ranjit said, there MUST be a per-requisite (conditions) on the performance of existing transportation agencies (and their elected officials) BEFORE they are trusted with any new projects (no matter details like route etc.). Isn't this common sense?
As an analogy: Would you give a very expensive Gun in someone's hand who you don't trust with a knife?

--
Vijay

On Sat, Jul 7, 2012 at 12:31 AM, Ranjit Gadgil  wrote:

The point is not really about where one can put a Metro, but whether the projected ridership really requires a Metro and whether the cost is justified, whether there are alternatives that can get the job done and finally does the city have the ability to integrate land use and transport.

-- Ranjit

On Fri, Jul 6, 2012 at 11:50 PM, shrinipedia  wrote:

Based on suggestions by Amit here.
http://aparanjape.wordpress.com/2012/06/10/elevated-riverside-metro-in-pune/

I have made a conceptual map of an alternate RiverSide Pune Metro with 2 lines running along the Mula-Mutha with option for a 3rd metro alongside the Mumbai Pune Railway track.

https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msa=0&msid=215478032620562513915.0004c34fe234ba21c574d

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Vijay Patil

[Sujit Patwardhan]

I see your point but as usual, we are ignoring the environmental value of the river by saying that putting pillars on riverbank will be very quick, so the alignment should come there.

Despite the humongus cost everyone seems to want the Metro -each group for its own reason.

The best option will be to have access controlled "Public Transport Bus Only" corridors (with cycles allowed) with connectivity points carefully selected, carved out of existing road network (though PMC and the Govt would much prefer new roads to be built at huge cost for obvious reasons). We definitely don't want freeways/expressways for (personal) cars. In fact what is urgently needed are several measures to discourage use of personal vehicles. That plus a well run pubic transport bus system can transform the city for the better.... but till we are able to make a dent in the official thinking (which is stuck in the nineteen fifties and sixties vision of more more and more roads, flyovers  and even more cars!!!) this traffic mess will continue.

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Sujit

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.

- J. Krishnamurti

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sujit Patwardhan
patwardh...@gmail.com
su...@parisar.org
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yamuna, ICS Colony, Ganeshkhind Road, Pune 411 007, India
Tel: +91 20 25537955
Cell: +91 98220 26627
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Blog: http://motif.posterous.com/

Parisar: www.parisar.org
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Jayant Joshi]

Couldn't agree more! We seem to be hell-bent on copying US transportation thinking from the sixties, while conveniently forgetting / ignoring that US has learnt from it's mistakes and moved on! Building a new freeway now in US is next to impossible. And building it in a river is unimaginable! In fact, many US cities already have or are planning to take down urban freeways. But not here in this great country of ours !!

Non-profitability in another red herring! It becomes a problem for improving public transport, but is never an issue when providing highly subsidized or totally free parking in the middle of the city for private cars.

Metro and light rail aren't bad per se, but they can't be done INSTEAD of improving bus system and non-motorized transport. The only reason these are being pushed is their money-making potential for the politicos. If these were done as part of a larger comprehensive plan with enough public input, I am sure we wouldn't be having these debates here!!

- Jayant

[shrinipedia]

Hi,

Focusing on Public transport alone while neglecting private vehicles is never going to solve the problem. Many people would rather pay the premium to be independent and ride their own 2 wheeler or car to go from place A to place B.

Yes Public transport needs to step up - but having your own conveyance is a personal necessity (not even a luxury).
Pune's growth as a center for Education, Industry, Technology, Commerce and Healthcare has very much to do with the improved quality of living one can enjoy in the city. That includes an upgraded road network. People rode the 2 wheeler revolution in the late 80s through this day to travel - but the roads and the traffic system couln't keep up with the speed of growth in private vehicle ownership. That does not mean the private vehicles should be banned and taken off the roads. Private vehicles and public transport can peacefully co-exist. The ramp up though needs to be in both - not exclusively in one.

And US is not destroying its infrastructure - even as we speak the 405 in Los Angeles is being expanded, the interstate and freeways are the heart and soul of America (minus New York Area). Indian cities desperately need to remove passing traffic (people commuting longer distances/trucks transporting goods/ST buses) out of regular surface streets to access controlled road. (hence the PCMC Pune-Mumbai grade separator has been a really good example).

Once these roads and an upgraded public transportation system come to existence, you can find ways to regulate how people use it- As of now its a free for all on the arterial roads - where people die every day like ants. People have no choice between choosing to risk their lives in crowded public transport or risking lives on unsafe roads.

Discouraging use of private vehicles is never going to solve anything. - the biggest example is the Mumbai suburban local train system  - Some European cities have championed bike friendly cities in summer and tram friendly cities in Winter - but to achieve anything like that would require cities to forgo suburbanization and moving back to a tiny 10km radius city space. Also Europe does not have a burgeoning and increasing urban population.
With India's breakneck speed of urbanization, suburbs are here to stay and no matter how much money one spends, all suburbs cannot be serviced by public transport. With 200 million people being added to India's population every decade, the only way out is to make sure that both private vehicles and public transport will co-exist. Moreove vehicle sales both 2 and 4 wheeler are drivers for industrialization.

For a City like Pune to be attractive to investments and jobs and have vibrant local commerce, the only solution is to have freeway like high speed access roads available to all - and some sort of reliable public transport with sufficient safe parking spaces for people to park thier 2-wheelers/cars and ride to hubs and get back home quickly.

~Shriniwas

On Tuesday, July 10, 2012 12:10:17 PM UTC-7, Jayant Joshi wrote:

Couldn't agree more! We seem to be hell-bent on copying US transportation thinking from the sixties, while conveniently forgetting / ignoring that US has learnt from it's mistakes and moved on! Building a new freeway now in US is next to impossible. And building it in a river is unimaginable! In fact, many US cities already have or are planning to take down urban freeways. But not here in this great country of ours !!

Non-profitability in another red herring! It becomes a problem for improving public transport, but is never an issue when providing highly subsidized or totally free parking in the middle of the city for private cars.

Metro and light rail aren't bad per se, but they can't be done INSTEAD of improving bus system and non-motorized transport. The only reason these are being pushed is their money-making potential for the politicos. If these were done as part of a larger comprehensive plan with enough public input, I am sure we wouldn't be having these debates here!!

- Jayant

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.

- J. Krishnamurti

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sujit Patwardhan
patwardh...@gmail.com
su...@parisar.org
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yamuna, ICS Colony, Ganeshkhind Road, Pune 411 007, India
Tel: +91 20 25537955
Cell: +91 98220 26627
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Blog: http://motif.posterous.com/

Parisar: www.parisar.org
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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[Sujit Patwardhan]

13 July 2012

What balance between Public Transport and Private vehicles are you talking about?

 

If you look at the investments in the last ten to fifteen years you will see that 99% of the effort has been to provide infrastructure for the private vehicles (almost always at the cost of public transport) and this in fact is the primary reason for the traffic mess we find ourselves in. 

This is not the place to explain the basic relationship between road space and modes of vehicles using the roads, neither is it necessary to explain why road widening, flyovers and more and more parking is counter productive as far a beating congestion  is concerned because more roads encourage even greater use of private vehicles. 

There is ample material available that will corroborate this, including the following sites and I would urge you to browse through it to appreciate that what we are saying is not some Utopian dream of a few activists but it is "state of the art" vision on sustainable transport based on wide empirical evidence. Although US is hardly a place to tell us how to plan anything sustainable (let alone transport and city planning) even they are abandoning their old unworkable ways of planning resources and mobility -- even though it will not be easy to undo decades of damage. 

Do visit these links:

www.parisar.org

http://worldstreets.wordpress.com/

http://www.transalt.org/

http://carbusters.org/

http://www.foe.co.uk/northern_ireland/campaigns/transport_index.html

http://www.cseindia.org/taxonomy/term/33/menu

http://thecityfix.com/

http://www.reinventingparking.org/

http://www.reinventingtransport.org/

http://www.streetfilms.org/

http://vishwakarman.wordpress.com/

http://www.ecoplan.org/wtpp/wtj_index.htm

http://www.eco-logica.co.uk/worldtransport.html

and finally do see this visual even if you don't have time to read all I've sent:-

http://www.flickr.com/photos/rethinkcollegepark/502514622/in/faves-sujitjp/

Thank you for your patience.

--

Sujit

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[Amit Paranjape]

Agree with Shrini.  Public transportation is extremely important and bike lanes too. But we also need a balanced approach. We can't completely ignore the road network either.

Many times on this and other groups I have been reading about how the 'West' is removing freeways. That is not an entirely correct representation. Yes, they are removing a few .. but adding a lot more. (And note, they already have 100s in place..). Shrini has given the LA example. Dallas is adding a huge new expansion to the existing city center freeways. Along with this, they are also expanding the light rail network.

Agree with Shrini's observation re: Europe population not growing - unlike in India, China and U.S. 

Even in some of the most public transportation friendly cities like Amsterdam, Zurich, London and extensive highway network exists, complementary too metro, light rail, buses, cycle tracks, etc.

I do agree with many in this group that our local authorities are too fixated on only the road infrastructure. And pay little attention to the public transportation/pedestrians/cycles. That needs to be addressed. But the answer to that is not to swing way to far to the other extreme. Like everything else, a good balance is needed.

On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 6:03 AM, shrinipedia <shrin...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Amit Paranjape]

Sujit - agree with you that this 99-1% balance is entirely wrong and needs to be addressed on a top priority. But the answer cannot be 1-99% either. Just a thought.

Amit

[Jayant Joshi]

Amit,

If we ask for 1-99 split, we will be lucky to get 30-70, though we really need 50-50 or so. Pretty standard negotiation stuff!

The basic principle is to have choice. And we don't have a choice today. We are forced to use private fossil-fueled two-wheeler and four-wheelers due to systematic neglect - and in many cases intentional deterioration - of other transportation means. Only by making investments in public transportation and non-motorized transportation in an aggressive manner, those choices will become "real". 

- Jayant

[Ranjit Gadgil]

I'm sorry, but the American model being espoused by Srini is totally outdated and if it continues in the U.S it is only because they are "locked" into that model. LA and Dallas (for crying out loud!!) are hardly beacons of hope for those who hope to address urban issues!

The faster growth rates in India make the "focus on public transport and NMT" even more necessary, it is not an argument for so called "balance". What it means is that the one or two or three lanes that one might add to the road network will be hopelessly overwhelmed in no time at all - perhaps even before they are built - offering no economic returns at all - and meanwhile the meager resources for transport will get sucked into these futile efforts while even basic amenities like footpaths/cycle tracks and most of all basic public transport will be left to the dogs. So better not to build at all and focus on ensuring accessibility and mobility. This "balanced approach is needed" mantra is the favorite of all consultants and bureaucrats and contractors and is nothing but utter hogwash.

The idea that suburbs are inevitable and that these cannot be served by public transport is also terribly uninformed. Nothing could be further than the truth.

As Sujit said, one cannot possibly counteract everything that was mentioned - because the entire framework of sustainable transport is being questioned.

I am however somewhat surprised that others seem to be buying into this discredited theory/model. Even the Govt. policy (NUTP) is more enlightened!!

-- Ranjit

[Amit Paranjape]

Ranjit - agree re: LA, Dallas. But what about Amsterdam, Zurich? They do have lots of freeways and big roads and tunnels. 

[Ranjit Gadgil]

Car ownership in the Netherlands is probably about 400 per thousand. In India, Delhi is perhaps the worst with about 120+ per thousand. Pune/Pimpri-Chinchwad is 88.

Amsterdam has terrific public transport, an amazing cycle track network and of course I don't have to say anything about footpaths - they have been of superb quality even before the second world war.

In the 70s, Europe also built a lot of freeways, roads and tunnels and lead to huge increases in motorized traffic. They began to make a U-turn after the oil embargo/middle east war in the 70s and also due to growing public pressure against road fatalities.

They may of course be building some new highways and roads - but they have in fact begun to shrink some of it, especially within cities and vastly added to public transport and in their case cycling infrastructure.

Are they likely to dismantle all their roads and tunnels - probably not - though Seoul is doing even that (to some extent). But for Europe ~ 400 cars per thousand is about doable - with their economy and population density they can feasibly support that level of car ownership. It comes at a high price - but it can be done - while making sure the city is livable, heritage structures are maintained etc.

What we have to ask is what is the feasible limit of car ownership that we can sustain? My guess is we have reached it. 100. More than that and you will have to tear apart cities, sacrifice open spaces, forget about housing and overall sustainability. Our growth rates and population densities will not allow for numbers of 200 - 300 and more. Just physically impossible.

Here is a ppt made by Dutch transport planner at a conference in Delhi recently.

Slide 4 is interesting - they had planned a much bigger road network - but eventually didn't build it!

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/20595419/Jeroen%20CSE%20Presentation%20Mar%202012.pptx

-- Ranjit

[Sujit Patwardhan]

So let's first have walking, cycling and public transport facilities as in Amsterdam and then talk about the highways they have and if they have any role to play in the city's traffic planning. 

Our present discussion was not about the Mumbai Pune Expressway (and about that too there are different opinions) but about whether the kind of road widening, flyovers, underpasses and elevated roads and tunnels PMC is planning to build have any place anymore..... now that we have seen that model totally fail.

But if some on our list are so concerned about the fate of  private vehicles and their future, they need not be. PMC is doing everything possible to meet their needs. But the irony is that no amount of money will save that old outdated vision survive for too long - we are running out of oil, we are running out of money to waste and the sooner we adopt sane policies the better for us and for our future generations.

--

Sujit

On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 12:02 PM, Amit Paranjape <apara...@gmail.com> wrote: