Faz

[Kwayne]

I got an infantile doodling about the Faz.

- I've dropped the amputated limbs idea, so I was going on with limbs which were shrinked to the point of being unusable. They're only worth waving around, not that the present Faz need them. The small "hands" might be sucktion cups surrounded by little tentacles.
- Their heads are covered by a VR interface to the point that only their eyes can be seen. There are optical cables spreading out of the helmet, the animations will show small zaps of information flow through them.
- another one or two hoses are used to pump stuff in and out of the body.
- They have three eyes. The animation of these eyes show much about their disturbed psyche: from time to time one of the three twitches instead of blinking. The eyes might be irritated to show some extra psycho.

The rest is a chairlike thing, held by a pillar. Now I don't know if this is okay or not. I'd say it's not, so I have an other suggestion (okay I'd need to draw this first but heck):
- The Faz is held in a capsule. the "helmet" is the top part of the capsule and it's being held from the top by a mechanical arm or a pillar. The lower part of the capsule is transparent, which shows the vestigial body floating in greenish preservation liquid.

One oddity in the plotdevdoc is that the Faz know about their neighbours, the M*bots, which is quite impossible if they got a Slave Shield around them. A Slave Shield means you're completely cut off, unless you have a magnificient hyperwave casting ability, and might even require the shielded party to have a magnificient hyperwave receiving ability too.

[drac...@aim.com]

Perhaps... the comm screen would first show them in whatever virtual environment they think of themselves as being in, but it's clearly a cartoon (can telegraph by using cel-shading), and only if you ask them nicely to see their corporeal bodies will the comm screen show them as they presently are.

[Kwayne]

I also thought that they might be in a temporary state, like having
their eyes shut. So the first task of the Captain would be to wake
them up. Dunno about the VR screen, the purpose of the Faz VR doesn't
make it necessary.

[drac...@aim.com]

On Jan 23, 2012, at 10:13 AM, Kwayne wrote:

> I also thought that they might be in a temporary state, like having
> their eyes shut. So the first task of the Captain would be to wake
> them up. Dunno about the VR screen, the purpose of the Faz VR doesn't
> make it necessary.

The idea is that they don't want to leave their VR even to talk to someone outside it. That's how deep they are.

[Damon Czanik]

I think this looks good. They're cute, yet they almost look like they're in a gimp costume. I love the eye twitch idea.


Some suggestions:
1. I'd give it a more "settled in" look. The arms almost make it look like the Faz is trying to get itself out of the chair. Not sure if that's the way you're going with that. Having the top arms resting on itself, folded in or bent a little might help with that.
2. You could do a small tribute to "War of the Worlds" and give the Faz Red/Green/Blue eyes. Not the whole eye, but just the iris.

It could be funny to see how they see themselves in the VR world. Probably not short pudgy

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[Kwayne]

1. I'm not really satisfied with the whole chair stuff in the first
place, but if you think about it, the muscles of the arms aren't
developed enough to function more effectively than fins.
2. Why? In a way, the whole idea resembles the Matrix already: bodies
in containers maintained by machinery, while their spirit dwells in a
virtual reality. Difference is that they can't get out of their
capsules after they spent 20000 or so years in them, instead the
capsule is their exterior body now.

I'm not really fond of showing what they see. I don't see the
necessity, nor the reason.
Besides, dialogue here would serve the Star Control routine of
creating -- a little -- mystery. Even if you don't see what the Faz do
in VR, you're left free to make guesses if the dialogue is composed
smartly.
Star Control builds on dialogue, that's where the "powerful stuff"
comes from. That's what you miss from P6014, Damon. Stuffing in some
extra graphics just because we can would just water down the
experience.

[Ariel Azia]

Following kwayne's drawing, I thought about strengthening the Faz Story.
I think a stronger utilization of the "brain in a box" trope is appropriate.

The plot arc I suggest: "Should sleeping dogs lie?"

the Faz you are conversing with does not actually understand the protagonist
he is conversing with is real. He has no clear understanding of what "reality" is.

so when conversing with you, he is in fact play another game.
there is actually only one specific Faz that was allocated by the AI computers governing
the planet to converse with the protagonist, which has shown a great preference
to the "history" and "administration" boring "games".

note that this will render the additional art unneccessary.

so, this Faz can grant you the information necessary for your other quests,
as already indicated in the plot development document.
 but he will treat you as one treats a NPC in a RPG.
For example, you emphatically suggest to him that he can be his race's savior and whatnot,
and he will be quite dispassionate about it. when you press him to it, he will mutter
"this game is very annoying" or something to that effect.

so your quest, should you choose to pursue it, is to convince him somehow that you are "real"
(should get quite philosophical). We could borrow the "signifying object" inception trope for this.
but ultimately it all boils down to rhetoric, so the dialog could shine as kwayne suggests.

Once you got him to "take the right pill".
Some of the other Faz might choose to awake following your successful argumentation.
(altough it should take time), but they will be quite literally ruthless since they have been denied
serious ethical considerations in their gameworlds (think growing up in COD or MW, where death is meaningless). what they choose to do is to systematically hunt down
and kill all the Ur-Quan and Kohr-Ah. this will technically aid the protagonist but makes
for a quite macabre and ironic turn of the events which some players should surely regret.

It will take the Faz a lot of time to re-adjust to the real world where there are real consequences.

As I said, this should provide some challenging dialog to write.

[Kwayne]

I've runned though this with half eye, Ariel, and I have to say Bravo!
We got a polishable gemstone.

[Joris van de Donk]

Some good suggestions, but I don't really like the idea that they think they're playing a game. Although the NPC bit is neat, I usually interact with NPCs in games by asking loads of short questions and having them answer them with long explanations. If we want to reverse the player-NPC role for the Faz, I think it's a good idea to do the same. Unfortunately, this will make the interaction with the Faz a bit silly; they ask you short questions and you have to give long answers. 

I have an alternate suggestion that builds on top of the generic idea, whilst attempting to improve upon it and integrate it with some of the rest of the story we currently have.

When the Faz were subjugated by the Ur-Quan, they were asked an important question: be put under an impenetrable slave-shield, or fight for a cause that they felt was wrong. It was an especially difficult choice they had to make, since the Faz were very visual creatures that loved to explore planets. Eventually, the Faz found a solution: put themselves under a slave-shield, yet enter a virtual world so that they could continue to live as if they were free to roam the galaxy; as if they had never been subjugated by the Ur-Quan.

After they had been slave-shielded, the Faz built a giant network of computers on their world. Each computer would contain a small part of the entire virtual reality world, and each computer would also contain a small part of an artificial intelligence that would make sure that the real-world Faz wouldn't starve or die out. The Artificial Intelligence was thus a single omnipresent entity that would make sure that nothing would happen to the Faz. Furthermore, the AI was given some limited access to the virtual world, so that it could warn the Faz if anything went wrong in the real world, and so that it could monitor on the Faz's virtual existence.

In the early stages of their VR world, the AI would occasionally "take control" of a Faz body to make it do various things in order to sustain it, whilst feeding the VR world into the controlled Faz brain so that it wouldn't notice. At first, the AI would make them eat and work at various places so that they could be fed at all times. The entire luxury industry was closed off by the AI and replaced by an industry designed to creating robotic servitors. These servitors would make sure that the Faz would never again have to be controlled in such a way, by taking their duties away from them. The existence of the servitors would also mean that Faz were far less likely to die due to accidents, and the servitors would allow the Faz bodies to be altered so that they could live longer.

When the VR world was still relatively new, some Faz would occasionally "step out" of the Virtual world to oversee the AI's progress in the real world. When the servitor project was complete, however, this pretty much stopped happening. The Faz had no real reason to step out of their VR world now, and so they simply wouldn't. Essentially, they became addicted to their virtual world. Whenver they would step out of the virtual world, they'd see the sad state their civilization was in, and they'd get depressed when looking at the throbbing red slave-shield.

After the entire servitor project had been completed, the AI had the time and processing power to study the Faz's virtual existence. It noticed that most Faz weren't completely happy since they knew that they were living a fake life and that they would never again roam the stars. Some Faz were starting to commit virtual suicide by piloting their virtual ships into virtual stars. This process would disconnect them from the virtual world and allow them to re-join the virtual world as if nothing ever happened. Unfortunately, since the AI had already started modifying the Faz bodies, the disconnected Faz would quickly die. As soon as they would disconnect, they would feel physical pain as a result of the AI's modifications to their bodies, and they would thrash about in their "sleeping pods" which would eventually kill them.

The AI realized that it had to do something quickly, or the Faz population would die out. It had devised a plan to migrate the Faz' physical form to a purely virtual form. The brains of every Faz individual would be read and stored into a database where simulation programs would continue to live out these Faz in the virtual world. Unfortunately, the process of simulating a Faz brain requires a lot of processing power and data storage, so the AI started ordering servitors to build the infrastructure for this radical change.

Then the AI realized a fatal mistake in his plan. It realized that the process of altering the infrastructure was going too slow. Faz were starting to virtually suicide at an alarming rate, way too fast for the still-developing infrastructure to cope with. For every five Faz that would virtually suicide, only two would ever be succesfully simulated.

The AI had to come up with a plan, and it did. In order to prevent the Faz from suiciding, it had to destroy the cause of their suicides; their knowledge of the virtual world and the real world. After a few moments of thinking, the AI came up with a clever plan. The AI would broadcast a signal to the virtual world, telling all the Faz that for some reason the Slave-shield in the real world had been lifted by a benevolent alien race. It altered the simulation, so that when a Faz would think it was disconnecting from the virtual world, it was actually placed in an entirely NEW virtual world that MIMICKED the real world, only without a slave-shield!

The Faz disconnected en-masse, and were happy. No longer did they feel like they were trapped in a virtual world. They actually believed they were living life in the real world. The AI's plan worked, and the AI could tackle new problems.

One new problem was that the Faz population was having trouble with reproduction. They never reproduced in the virtual world, but in the fake-reality virtual world they believed they could do it again. To make sure that the Faz could reproducte, the AI continued to build on the new infrastructure that would put Faz brains into a database. New Faz babies in their virtual world would be completely simulated on the new infrastructure, without having physical brains in our real world. After a few generations, there were no longer any physical Faz in our reality. All Faz lived in a simulated virtual world without them realizing.

That's as far as my backstory goes. I'm not exactly sure what we need to do to allow the player to communicate with the Faz, but I would like it if the Faz as we see them in-game are actually a starfaring species. Perhaps we could find a reason for the Faz to be present in spaceships in *our* reality, but they still think they're in *their* reality (their virtual world). The reason for this is that it would allow us to portray them as an alien species from a different parallel universe. They've had a very different history than us: they think they've been under a slaveshield for less than a generation, but in our reality they've been under there for perhaps thousands of years. They tell us about aliens in certain constellations that aren't there in our reality. Scientists back at the Starbase will also think that the Faz are actually beings from a parallel universe.

When the Faz tell you about the Melnorme's dark history, the Melnorme will have a pretty good case there. They'll tell you that the Faz are from a parellel universe, and that their words may be true in their universe, they're not true in ours! It is the duty of the player to uncover the true mystery and find out the truth about the Faz and Melnorme.

Of course, we have to provide the player with some counter-evidence so that they CAN uncover the truth. If the Melnorme and scientists both think that the Faz are from another parallel universe, how can we give the player the idea that they're not? Perhaps the art could reflect this, but I have absolutely no idea.

This entire backstory plus story can be used as a neat philosophical platform. How do you convince the Faz that their reality is a fake one? Should you? Is *their* reality a fake one, or is it actually the *true* reality with *our* reality being the fake one? I'm sure there's all kinds of clever stuff that we could do here.

-Joris

[Ariel Azia]

Joris,

most of what you have written complements my idea.

can you explain why does it bother you so much they have lost touch with the real "reality"?
They do not think of these world as "games" anymore. everyone of these worlds is
just equivalent to them.

We are losing none of the historical ties this way, since all the data is stored in
the relevant historical archive in the AI servitor program as you named it.

My plot arc explores the idea that under such conditions, a race of sentient beings
with no coherent idea of reality can emerge. I think it will be fun to understand what
is going on, and to try to convince the Faz the protagonist is real.

do you think we can try to find a compromise between our approaches?

Ariel

[Joris van de Donk]

I was under the assumption (based on some previous writing by various people) that the Faz believe they're playing a game when interacting with you.

I prefer a situation where they believe that they're living in a coherent reality as usual over a situation where they don't really know if they are or not. I like the situation where they believe that *you* are from a parallel universe intruding in their universe, and you believe that *they* are from a parallel universe intruding in your universe. This creates some finger-pointing as both sides are trying to convince the other that they're right. Revealing that both sides are wrong and the Faz aren't from a parallel universe will surely spice things up a bit.

-Joris

[Ariel Azia]

Joris,

we seem to have "creative differences" on this point.
If I understand you correctly, it is a matter of taste, not of some incoherency?
Let's hear what the others have to say.

I think the main problem with your version is the AI servitor program ends up simulating
the entire universe (including entire other planets and sentient races) which will require
endless computing power.

Another problem we need to work out in both scenarios is how communication possible at all.
In your version, the AI servitor would see interaction as hazardous as it might
start the Faz to question their reality. In my version it is a little less of a problem
since only one Faz is actually doing the communication.


Ariel

[Joris van de Donk]

You're right, this is mostly a creative difference. As I probably won't be doing any serious dialogue work, and the differences mainly affect the dialogue work, I think it's indeed a good idea to get some input from other people on this.

I also realize that I've probably explained the "servitor" thing wrong. Servitors are little robotic entities that just do boring maintenance/construction work. They're controlled by the AI.

The computing power problem is indeed one of the problems with this idea. I thought that that might be an angle we could use to explain why the Faz aren't under a slaveshield anymore; the AI realized that it couldn't simulate a galaxy AND a population of billions of Faz, and has thus decided to try and "mirror" the Faz's reality into ours. Whereever a Faz is in their reality, there's also a spaceship in ours to record the surroundings and feed that back into their virtual reality.

The interaction being potentially hazardous is not something I had thought of; good point.

-Joris

[Damon Czanik]

I recommend watching Transcendant Man on netflix. I really recommend reading "The Singularity is Near" as it deals with these very ideas but that book is huge. Transcendant Man is a just a brief glimpse on the ideas from the book.

For my input and some suggestions for a backstory:
At first Faz created bionic devices to enhance their frail bodies. It started off small, lenses to improve vision, and improved to the point if the Faz lost its arm, the new arm would be far more capable then its old one. In this respect, they enhanced the evolution.

The emergence of distributed energy grids and full-immersion virtual reality, when combined with high bandwidth Internet, enabled the ultimate in telecommuting. This, in turn, made cities obsolete since workers will no longer needed to be located near their workplaces. 

With enhanced brain scanning software, their minds are copied digially into computers. We do a very crude form of this with MRI machiens. So even if they die, their minds will live on... in the computer.  Why copy themselves into the computer? Because attached to a computer,  their minds are literally a billion times more powerful than the Faz brain. And since it's digital, it they can create perfect copies of their brains. They can exist multiple places at once. Do multiple activities at once, experience a thousand lifetimes. They can even exist as a thousand probes in our world.

At this point, they had no need for their bodies. They see their bodies as just another 'node'. With their brain scanning technology, their minds are inserted into a machine. At this point, if they die "they" will live on virtually. That is, until you unplug them....

What happens to them will feel as though they've lost all their limbs.  They may despise the captain for doing this to them.  Every desire they had was filled, everybody they know is now gone to them, they have become so dependant on this technology that adapting is difficult.  They've never known pain (unless they wanted to) and could shut it off at any moment.  In the virtual world, they lived like gods, and now they awaken to find themselves mortal, vulnerable, isolated, and scared. And the Captain is the reason for all of this.

[Ariel Azia]

Damon,

It seems that we have as many versions as we have people on the team :)

I am not clear on your idea, in your version:

1. are the Faz aware there is a reality outside?
    it is implied  they are actively working on the infrastructure of the planet.

2. will they be inclined to communicate with outside?
3. why would the captain unlplug them?
4. do they have actual physical bodies?

[Damon Czanik]

Yeah. That's the problem with large groups. I just wanted to throw my 2 cents in there. I find things like transhumanism, the technological singularity, brain-machine interfaces, general A.I., etc. to be fascinating.  I've got a ton of books on these subjects.

1. Sure, there's an outside. Probes could be them exploring the outside. Or "outside" could be seen as boring. I would think some sort of robotic system would take care of maintaining the structure. However with the Exotics, about to rip this galaxy apart simply moving them to another star system isn't really effective.
2. Probably wouldn't care about the outside much. Reality wouldn't be as interesting. But I couldn't see somebody not caring at all about the outside.  What would you rather do, mow your lawn, pay your taxes or play Star Control 2 and save the galaxy?
3. Probably to save them. Perhaps their star/planet is unstable.  Saving an entire civilization might sound like the right thing to do.  Of course the Faz would probably realize it, but they've sent copies of their civilization to another galaxy. To them, life wouldn't hold much meaning anymore since they could make a million more virtual lives. It's hard for us to grasp, because we just have the one life.
4. Yes. Physical bodies. I was thinking the sketch that Kwayne did. I think it's great.

[Kwayne]

I think there are a lot of things explained that is less relevant in
the game, and could be easily put in the mystery section.

Why did the Faz build the VR? How does the VR work? Doesn't matter if
you consider that the Faz world was Slave Shielded, which is
impenetrable, therefore no communications can go in or out. Since the
VR was built after the Shield was erected, no other Milieu species
knows what's going on there (nobody to make an explanation on the
background). This BTW also means that there are no Precursor artifacts
in the Possession of the Faz. The Faz themselves are less reliable
source of information, since they spent 20000 years in a dreamworld
where they changed to the point of not recognizing their own identity.
When awakened, they suddenly find themselves in "new" bodies, and have
a struggle accepting reality as it is, therefore they still speak as
if the rules of the virtual world apply (MMORPG terminology), and
constantly doubt the reality of the real reality ("What kind of
reality is where you can't go back to a checkpoint when you die?
Ridiculous!").

The Faz as it was doesn't exist anymore, they also don't know about
their history or past motives. Nobody to tell the background story.
Which is good, more for future Star Control philosophers to speculate
about. What I would put more focus on is their background with the
Milieu races: how they live in the Taalo memory, and their conflict
with the Melnorme.

I like the videogame part. Makes me remember that I was suggesting
long before that the VR is the globalized extension of a game they
purchased from the Melnorme, the same game the Spathi plays nowadays
to kill time.

> >> On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 8:56 AM, Joris van de Donk <jorisvdd...@gmail.com

> >> > wrote:
>
> >>> You're right, this is mostly a creative difference. As I probably won't
> >>> be doing any serious dialogue work, and the differences mainly affect the
> >>> dialogue work, I think it's indeed a good idea to get some input from other
> >>> people on this.
>
> >>> I also realize that I've probably explained the "servitor" thing wrong.
> >>> Servitors are little robotic entities that just do boring
> >>> maintenance/construction work. They're controlled by the AI.
>
> >>> The computing power problem is indeed one of the problems with this
> >>> idea. I thought that that might be an angle we could use to explain why the
> >>> Faz aren't under a slaveshield anymore; the AI realized that it couldn't
> >>> simulate a galaxy AND a population of billions of Faz, and has thus decided
> >>> to try and "mirror" the Faz's reality into ours. Whereever a Faz is in
> >>> their reality, there's also a spaceship in ours to record the surroundings
> >>> and feed that back into their virtual reality.
>
> >>> The interaction being potentially hazardous is not something I had
> >>> thought of; good point.
>
> >>> -Joris
>

> ...
>
> tovább »

[Damon Czanik]

Yeah, the stuff was just suggestions. Leaving things as mystery is okay... as long as you don't leave a bunch of plot holes.

So, based on what you're all saying, what's so interesting about (your version of) the Faz? Obviously there's something appealing to you there.

For me, it's the fact that humanity may be heading this way in the future... I find the idea of being immortal, living like a god, the world at your fingertips, only to have that stripped away from you.  Trying to cope in an unfamiliar, unfair, and harsh world.


I can't help but quote the Matrix for stuff like this:
"Why do my eyes hurt?"
"Because you've never used them before."

[Jaakko Seppälä]

Kwayne: Good catch that Mmrnmhrm connection. It was pretty vaguely
stated in the plotdevdoc. What I meant was after they're freed and get
some months to fly around they learn the Mother Ark's location.
This'll help the player get ahead if he's stuck, since the Ark
location is not very widely known fact.

It's good to have a solid background that we all can agree upon... but
it's IMO much better if everything is not explained in-game and
there'll indeed be mysteries. Too wordy in-game dialogues that leave
nothing to the player's imagination tend to kill suspension. However,
we developers need to know how (mostly) everything happened. It just
somehow always shows in a story whether the writer has thought the
world through thoroughly or left blanks in the design.

In general, I like Ariel's idea backed up with Joris's background
story. The thing I disagree with is having them be starfaring species.
For them (or their AI) to be capable of lifting the
slaveshield/sending ships through it defeats the idea of having the
whole VR at first place. But since that was only a suggestion for
solving the "infinite computing power" problem, they need not have
spaceships.

The computing power could also be explained in such a way that the
simulation's accuracy varies: The AI doesn't have to simulate those
parts accurately which no Faz is actually watching. The far-away
stars/systems whe Faz aren't currently in (in the sim) are just
modeled as rough mathematical equations. Whereas the locations where
there are more observers (Faz homeworld) is emulated more accurately.

I also would make it so that the Faz are able to reproduce in the real
world. (Or more like, the AI/servitors are breeding them since the
real-world-Faz are of course unable to move when connected to the VR).
If there were no living Faz we couldn't have any of that cool
altered-bodies stuff.

Damon's story actually shares a lot of same thems as Ariels and
Joris's. What I like better in A&J's version is that the Faz aren't
aware that their physical bodies have been altered (whereas in Damon's
version they started it all by starting to enhance their bodies). This
way it would become as a greater shock to them to see their miserable
state in their real world. It would also make the player's decision
more dramatic: whether to allow them die happily or wake them up to
the real world.

The player could be unsure of what to make of the VR system the Faz
are connected into once he cracks the slaveshield. He/his scientists
would realize it's some kinda VR but would be unsure of what's going
on in there. He could think it's some kind of extra-enslavement device
the Quans have set upon the Faz and think it's only right to free the
poor bastards.

Haha, once the player awaken's the Faz, the very first lines could
indeed be the:

"Why do my eyes hurt?"

"Because you've never used them before." (+ a couple of smart-ass answers...) :D

Jaakko

[Ariel Azia]

Should the player choose not to awake the Faz, the protagonist will have to behave as
a computer character and give the Faz a sense of accomplishment for helping him out.
If the protagonist manages to gain some control of the AI software,
He can give the interacting Faz a "ancient artefact of arcane powers" or something to that effect.
So it should be fun to interact with the Faz both ways (some replay value).

2012/1/25 Jaakko Seppälä <jaakko.mar...@gmail.com>

[Kwayne]

IMO explaining the computer power thing and having an AI are just
elements that are not important, simple technical mumbo-jumbo. This is
where adventure games used to pull the "bla-bla-bla yadda-yadda-yadda"
type of routine. It doesn't matter if writers don't know the answers
yet, they could keep the freedom of speculation for a sequel, when
such answers become relevant for the plot.

I was suggesting the virtual reality idea because the situation comes
with the promise of an interesting and challenging dialogue, which is
more crucial in SC than anything. I'm curious about having a
conversation with someone whose reality equates to the mechanisms of
World of Warcraft, or EVE Online.

Living like a god is too abstract for me, but it would be interesting
to see how morals form in a world where there is no eternal
consequence. In the virtual reality, killing someone results in the
victim "respawning" somewhere, so even if it's immoral to kill someone
on a social level, it doesn't weight as much. As social beings, the
Faz wouldn't kill anyone in the real world, but whenever they do they
do it for reasons cultured in a different reality. Similarly, when
they get informed about their real past, they would interpret it by
the social values developed in that virtual reality.

"Getting offline" is when their neural system dies, and it's
interpreted as worse than "death", because it means that the virtual
body disappears and there is no respawning. In a world like that,
legends would speak of people respawning after getting offline, and
that getting offline is not the end but respawning in another world.
(For that, an awakened Faz -- who got offline before thier biological
death -- would probably wonder if they got into a place similar to our
concept of Heaven/Hell/Afterlife/Valhalla stc.)

BTW I suggested using the Melnorme game as part of the story because
plotwise that could be a viable connection to either the Melnorme or
the Spathi. If the game is the basis for the VR, maybe the code base
of the game is needed to wake up the Faz. But who informs the Captain
about this fact? Since the Slave Shield precludes the possibility of
an outside source, it might be the (non-AI) VR itself, or a
prematurely awakened Faz.

For the sake of finding the M*bots it might be important to have the
Faz use their ships. The game they spent their life in is a space
exploration game similar to SC2, so they probably also want to live
their life similarly and start exploring the universe again ... and
adventuring. Instead of retaining their SoI they might disperse in
hyperspace, so in sequels (or even in p6014) a player could encounter
some Faz adventurer-mercenaries who would join the fleet for
resources. Before that happens though they might ask the Captain to
bring them some of their old ships from wherever the Ur-Quan stashed
them. (From the Syreen we know they do.) Since the whole Faz homeworld
is filled with capsules they might not have enough room for ship
construction.

[Jaakko Seppälä]

It is indeed necessary for the writer to know the background of the
race and "what led to this" even if he never puts these answers into a
game-visible form. It will lead into so much better story once the
writer has a clear view of what he's doing. And we don't want to have
bad quality in this project, right?

About the Melnorme game that the Spathi are playing, and which shares
the same codebase as the Faz VR:
Now you're talking! I like this stuff. It's cooky and fun in a true
SC2 way, but still sounds plausible in the game universe.
- So, the Melnorme sold this proto-VR game to the Faz before shit hit
the fan and the Faz got slaveshielded.
- The Melnorme have also recently sold this game to the Spathi. Upon
visiting the Spathi SB the captain gets an enthusiastic talk about the
game from the Spathi who are enjoying it to the max. At this point
however, the player disregard this just as another funny
non-significant dialogue snippet.
- After visiting the Faz planet and seeing the suckers in sleep, the
player can ask the Melnorme who the hell are these guys. The Melnorme
are reluctant to tell, arousing suspicions. But they don't reveal
anything yet.
- The captain could have his coders tap into the computers of the Faz
and obtain sample of what's running in there.
- After some time the computer wizards at starbase have deciphered the
code and it could feature the name of the program at some comment
line, which happens to be same or similar to the Spathi game's. The
hackers can also hint that if they had access to the source code they
could do a lot more with the stuff.
- Now you can head to Spathi SB and confirm that it's the same game
they're playing there. It will become evident that whatever is running
on the Faz VR is of Melnorme origin.
- Then you can meet the Melnorme and confront them about what's going
on. They'll crack like eggshells.

Jaakko

[Kwayne]

Okay okay I just don't want people bumping into long concrete
historical logs and technical specifications. Also I don't want to
play the AI card unnecessarily. The excellence of the Mother Ark AI
would be watered down by it.

It would be fun to see someone describing the Spathi game as a
fundamentally same, but somewhat updated version of the Mael-Num game,
in parallel to the differences between SC2 and P6014. It would be more
fun if the whole description sounds almost like an advertising.

On jan. 25, 02:44, Jaakko Seppälä <jaakko.markus.sepp...@gmail.com>
wrote:

[Jaakko Seppälä]

Haha, yeah!
The Melnorme could get excited about the Spathi game and forget all
their guilt and hushing-up-the-Faz-story for a while, whilst reciting
the advertisement.

Yeah, overtly explained backstories kill interest and flow of the
game, so they should indeed be kept in writer's head for the most
part.

Jaakko

[Damon Czanik]

Okay. So we're looking at it from the point of view of gaming too much? And then dealing with the real world?

When I said "living like a god"... Well, isn't that what gaming is about? You can die a million times without worry. Your gaming character can have all sorts of magic or super powers.  You save the girl, the world, or galaxy multiple times. It's the same sort of thing. If you want to avoid the science on how this would be accomplished...that's fine. It may be too cerebral for the game. I was just trying to give the motivations on why something like this would be so horrible for the Faz.

If we're dealing with the ideals of being going from a connected virtual world to being disconnected, then I'm fine with that.

The (FunROM?) game from the Melnorme for the Spathi was just a wink to the audience on Star Control 2. I always thought it would be funny if the Spathi got frustrated waiting for the sequel, and after 20 years, ended up making their own.  It could be a way to poke fun at ourselves a bit.

I'd go with the Faz playing the first game, and wanting something with "Better graphics". Though calling the Melnorme/Spathi game bad for you while we're giving the player more of that game may be a little ironic, some might find it to be a little sacrilegious. We'd be insulting the player a little. I'm okay with this though, as long as we don't go "Jack Thompson" on it (preaching that games are evil)

2012/1/25 Jaakko Seppälä <jaakko.mar...@gmail.com>

[drac...@aim.com]

Developers - are we clear to use glib?

[Edmund Horner]

Yes, it is under the GNU Library General Public License which is
completely compatible with the GPL.

What do you need from it?

[drac...@aim.com]

On Jan 25, 2012, at 11:44 PM, Edmund Horner wrote:

> Yes, it is under the GNU Library General Public License which is
> completely compatible with the GPL.

Okay... I thought I saw that parts of P6014 were under a CC license, not GPL. Is that content, and thus not linked and exempt from the exclusivity of GPL?

> What do you need from it?

My parser is heavily using singly linked lists, and the whole concept will require replacing/extending the [GS]ET_GAME_STATE macros with something dynamic. Thus, we're going to need sets, and the numeric flags will need maps.

The C preprocessor can take something like GET_GAME_STATE(ANDROSYNTH_HOSTILE) and put the ANDROSYNTH_HOSTILE part in quotes so that by compile time it's a string... right? If so, we can just change the macro to the glib set equivalent, and either have a special case for loading old savefiles, or break save compatibility.

Luke

[Edmund Horner]

On 26/01/12 18:36, drac...@aim.com wrote:
> On Jan 25, 2012, at 11:44 PM, Edmund Horner wrote:
>
>> Yes, it is under the GNU Library General Public License which is
>> completely compatible with the GPL.
> Okay... I thought I saw that parts of P6014 were under a CC license, not GPL. Is that content, and thus not linked and exempt from the exclusivity of GPL?

I haven't researched it thoroughly and I'm not a licence expert. But
I'm pretty sure that GPL programs can freely use LGPL libraries. The
licence of the content covers the content and shouldn't interfere with
what we can do with the code.

I don't mind if you ask for second opinions. But I personally am
satisfied we can use glib.

> What do you need from it?
> My parser is heavily using singly linked lists, and the whole concept will require replacing/extending the [GS]ET_GAME_STATE macros with something dynamic. Thus, we're going to need sets, and the numeric flags will need maps.
>
> The C preprocessor can take something like GET_GAME_STATE(ANDROSYNTH_HOSTILE) and put the ANDROSYNTH_HOSTILE part in quotes so that by compile time it's a string... right? If so, we can just change the macro to the glib set equivalent, and either have a special case for loading old savefiles, or break save compatibility.

I made a recent change to generate an in-game table from state names to
their offsets in the state bitmap, using the C processor trick. It's
not optimised yet. I'll probably use a simply hash table for that.

Some of the variables are used in very tight loops so access needs to be
fast. I'd prefer to keep the direct access by code symbol, e.g.
ANDROSYNTH_HOSTILE instead of "ANDROSYNTH_HOSTILE", rather than putting
them in a table and having to look them up by name.

Games are going to get broken every time we add a variable anyway.
That's the downside to keeping those direct symbols. I say don't worry
about that for now though, since I'm keen to get more content in before
embarking on more code rewrites.

So, if we add a function called int GetGameState(const char *name)
is that going to be easy to wire into your dialogue engine?

At this point I assume we're going ahead with your engine, but we may
want to tweak it once everyone else sees how it works/is implemented.

[drac...@aim.com]

On Jan 25, 2012, at 11:44 PM, Edmund Horner wrote:
> The licence of the content covers the content and shouldn't interfere with what we can do with the code.

Okay.

> Some of the variables are used in very tight loops so access needs to be fast.

I guess it makes sense - In my game, I separated some things out from the table, like the team's location and whether they were in their ship or not. I just had the getState(...) call check for those variables before hitting the table, and when the variables were to be accessed quickly, it didn't even used getState(...) but accessed them directly. It sounds like you're planning to do that here. If so, I concur.

> So, if we add a function called int GetGameState(const char *name) is that going to be easy to wire into your dialogue engine?

Yup, that's half of what I'd need.

Similarly, we'd need a void SetGameState(const char *name, int) which does the reverse (but refuses to change things that it doesn't make sense to change (if any - even the date and location should be mutable)).

I'll amend the language so that all flags are numeric and any positive value is 'true', and setting a flag without a value defaults to 1. That way you only need to write the one pair of access functions.

> At this point I assume we're going ahead with your engine, but we may want to tweak it once everyone else sees how it works/is implemented.

Yeah... my code may or may not be a stylistic atrocity. I think the structure is sound, since it's based off of code that works.

Luke

[drac...@aim.com]

I had an idea for music a while ago, which sounds pretty decent, and would fit a happy mathematically inclined race well -

Each measure contains the binary representation of the measure number, letting the least significant bit be 'Do', the 2s bit be 'Re', the 4's bit be 'Mi', and so on. Each is to be played in sequence, given equal duration. So, measure 7 is a triplet Do-Re-Mi, while measure 8 is a whole note Fa. A tempo with musical sense gives each measure 3/4 of a second.

A good place to loop is at measure 64. That way, the first time you hit Ti, you resolve up to Do by starting over.

To make this work, we'd need a sample which includes all octaves so you can do an ascending scale upwards and end up exactly where you started on the 8th note.

I understand that you may have some trouble getting this in your heads - I can record it this, or maybe produce a little program that produces it.

Do any of the races fit the description I gave? Friendly and mathematically inclined? Maybe with the proper electronic sample, it'd work with Mmrnmrhrm?? Or perhaps one of the less well-defined races, such as the FleeingRace, or any other that is so far defined by its role in the story.

Luke

[Gergely Sinkó]

Not sure I completely understand, but the characteristics you mentioned might be fitting for the Foon-Foon, I think they could be somewhat nerdy, not certain though -- I need to hear the music.

2012/1/26 <drac...@aim.com>

[Mark McGill-Smith]

'mathematically perfect' music often sounds quite... random and horrible.  but if you can provide an example that works...

[Ariel Azia]

I think Bach's toccatas and fugues are mathematical constructs.

( it is discussed in the book Godel Escher Bach)

maybe an electronic version of one of these?

[benjam...@free.fr]

They have strong mathematical bases, but they're far from exempt of artistical work and insight. Also, Bach's music is never a straight direct translation of a systematic process, it often starts with a first "simple" musical piece, which is then transformed and rearranged by a mathematical method (or, let's face it, sometimes by a quite arbitrary method which is described as a pseudo-mathematical mumbo-jumbo).

I tend to be as pessimistic as Mark on mathematically generated music. I'd be interested in hearing what Luke's proposal sounds like, but it's already clear some measures will yield awfully dissonant chords. Maybe some well-chosen alterations would resolve it but then that's another job completely.

B.

----- Mail original -----
De: "Ariel Azia" <ariel...@gmail.com>
À: project...@googlegroups.com
Envoyé: Vendredi 27 Janvier 2012 09:01:15
Objet: Re: [Music + story]

[Mark McGill-Smith]

I'd say it's most important that any additional music fits in with the Star Control 2 'feel', regardless of its mathematic progression.  The themes seem to range from zany/wild to ominous/evil, something I tried to take into consideration when writing the lurg music

[Gergely Sinkó]

I dropped the chair and progressed with the capsule. I'll put the cables back ...

2012/1/25 Kwayne <kwayne...@gmail.com>

> When I said "living like a god"... Well, isn't that what gaming is about?

No. Those who think gaming is about living like a god either end up
starting a shooting spree in their school or end up being Jack
Thompson.

> You can die a million times without worry. Your gaming character can have
> all sorts of magic or super powers.  You save the girl, the world, or
> galaxy multiple times. It's the same sort of thing.

Every character behaves according to the rules layed down in game
concept and code. Normally you can't do anything with these rules, and
you're progressing on a prescribed succession of events. While you're
controlling your character, none of these are in your power to change,
so you're not a god.

>I'd go with the Faz playing the first game, and wanting something with
>"Better graphics". Though calling the Melnorme/Spathi game bad for you
>while we're giving the player more of that game may be a little ironic,
>some might find it to be a little sacrilegious. We'd be insulting the
>player a little. I'm okay with this though, as long as we don't go "Jack

>Thompson <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Thompson_%28activist%29>" on it

>(preaching that games are evil)

If we'd insult the player why go with the Faz complaining about
graphics or anything in the first place? The Faz don't have anything
to say, they just have a game from the Mael-Num they expand into a VR,
and 20000 years later they believe that it's the one dead serious
reality.

[Benjamin Wack]

I like it ! But it does not fit the comm screen format at all ; aren't you worried there will have to be much much filler on the sides ?

[Kwayne]

You're right. I was worried about this, but I'll make the capsule
shorter so I can enlarge it and it can take more space from the sides.
Whatever space is left it will be used by the background animation in
sync with the little guy in front.

[drac...@aim.com]

Could the side views be screens displaying the alternate reality the Faz believes itself to be in? Then they aren't just filler...

On Jan 28, 2012, at 5:35 PM, Benjamin Wack wrote:

> I like it ! But it does not fit the comm screen format at all ; aren't you worried there will have to be much much filler on the sides ?
>
> Le 28/01/2012 16:32, Gergely Sinkó a écrit :
>>
>> I dropped the chair and progressed with the capsule. I'll put the cables back ...

...

[Damon Czanik]

Awww. I liked the look of the other one better. It was cute, and I thought you could relate to it better. Even creepy guys like the Orz looked sorta cute (which somehow made them even creepier).  But hey they're different characters, with the right writing I'm sure it will work out.

Anybody else reminded of the Quiet Riot albums?

Art-wise, it's fine with the exception of the empty space problem. Maybe have multiple of these guys too?

[Kwayne]

Screens and Multiple Faz: I'm not totally close minded about these
ideas.

On jan. 28, 19:58, Damon Czanik <dcza...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Awww. I liked the look of the other one better. It was cute, and I thought
> you could relate to it better. Even creepy guys like the Orz looked sorta
> cute (which somehow made them even creepier).  But hey they're different
> characters, with the right writing I'm sure it will work out.
>
> Anybody else reminded of the Quiet

> Rio<http://static.rateyourmusic.com/album_images/93aa48c5fe2eb01dc0a256ee...>t

[Gergely Sinkó]

Here's a new pic, with some background.

2012/1/29 Kwayne <kwayne...@gmail.com>

[drac...@aim.com]

So, I have a thrown-together voice recording here demonstrating the tune.

It's a 1.1 Mb m4a file. Is there a place to put this, aside from 3rd party file hosts? It doesn't seem like the kind of thing that belongs in the repository.

Luke

[Damon Czanik]

Not sure what you mean by 3rd party hosts.  Are you talking about something like somebody's personal FTP? 

If you're just wanting to share something:
docs.google.com lets you upload and share files now.  You can restrict who has access to it.  Or E-Mail it to me, and I'll put it up on my google docs area.

[Mike Ling]

Maybe post as a video on Youtube as unlisted? 

[Kwayne]

Animating the Faz... the whole screen became a lot darker!

[Ariel Azia]

are you going for creepy? it gave me a chill

On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 10:20 PM, Kwayne <kwayne...@gmail.com> wrote:

Animating the Faz... the whole screen became a lot darker!

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[Gergely Sinkó]

Yep, I'm going for creepy. BTW can we handle 100+ frames?

2012/6/20 Ariel Azia <ariel...@gmail.com>

[Damon Czanik]

I've had 300 full screen frames in a .ani file. Took forever, but it loaded.  I'd just make the file sizes small, and we should be okay.

[Kwayne]

Idea:

Every time we encounter the Faz, we need to wake him up. If we don't have any info nor proof about his true state, he'll will be suspicious of us. Right at the first encounter, he starts:

"Where am I?
Why can't I move?
Who are you?
What did you do to me?"

Every time we leave him, he'll fall asleep, back into his VR existence. When we wake him up again, all he wants is to go back, so he'll blabber about his fake life until we give him the Melnorme info. Then he'll allow us to progress in the conversation -- though he'll still feel uncomfortable.

Could it be that the VR he tells about is similar to Star Control 3? Or a blend of SC3 and other sci-fi universes? Would be fun I guess.

The Spathi game -- and it's fundamental similarities to the VR -- will serve as a proof. After the revelation of the truth, he won't fall asleep anymore.

[Damon Czanik]

Cool. Sounds good. Write it out and save it for the Faz. Should be a great introduction to the new dialog language.

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[Mark McGill-Smith]

Lemme know when I can start on some musics for these guys :]

[Gergely Sinkó]

I'd say any time is a good time. Some memorable dark-melancholic tunes for these folks would probably be good incentive for writing dialogue too. (I heard some artists work with mood music on)

2012/11/7 Mark McGill-Smith <mmcgil...@gmail.com>

[Mark McGill-Smith]

Yeah.  The more info I can get, the better.  Does the wiki have anything about the faz yet?  Or do I have to read through 500 emails :P