Response to Google VP Brian McClendon

[© Tom Cooper not going to Views]

Brian's original post can be found here: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/panoramio-questions-support/R5toz0EAB8k

My words will be in blue.

Folks,

I’ve been following some of the discussions on this forum regarding the future migration of Panoramio to Views, and I would like to expand on Evan’s statement with some context on how Panoramio and Views fit into the larger picture.

First, let me be clear that we will provide an easy way for you to migrate all your Panoramio photos, their metadata, and their viewcounts to Views. Your photos will be saved into public albums in Google+ and we will provide you a Google Drive storage bonus to cover the additional data usage. And, when we shut down Panoramio, if you do not wish to move your photos over to Views, you can simply download them and not migrate.

Moving photos to Google+ cuts out most of the Panoramio community. I have 96 favorite photographers, only 23 have made the connection to Google+. Of those 23, I have about 18 in my Google+ circles. Of those 18, I see Google+ posts from about 6. So out of 96, less than 25% made the connection, and of that 25%, less than 30% participate in Google+. The Panoramio community already made a decision not to go to Google+.

As the lead for Google Maps, a co-founder of Google Earth, and a passionate photographer, I’ve always had a great appreciation and love for the Panoramio community. The photos in Panoramio have helped countless people in Google Maps and Google Search to make decisions about where to travel. I believe Views is an important next step for us to grow the photography community to better serve the one billion people who use Google Maps every month.

Cutting out more than 75% of the participants is not growth.

I want everyone to understand why we made the very difficult decision to migrate Panoramio to Views. Our reasons fall into the following categories:

• new requirements that mobile users have when using Google Maps

• increased availability of affordable GPS-enabled cameras, primarily smartphones

• technical limitations of old infrastructure

Old infrastructure?  Panoramio was migrated from "old infrastructure" to Google servers several years ago.  We endured many months of a stalled service during the transition. But my 30+ years as a computer programmer has taught me that it is seldom necessary to change the user interface to replace underlying structure.  I have done that single handed with one of my company's products in less than 80 man hours in just the last six months.  I realize the scope of the Panoramio data is thousands or perhaps millions of times greater than the project I did, but infrastructure does not dictate user interaction, and it never should.

The world has gone mobile. Smartphone growth is incredible. Google Maps has now been installed on over one BILLION Android and iOS devices. People use our mobile apps to navigate, but also to make daily decisions about where to go (restaurants, hiking trails, hotels, and more). People need to see photos for these locations.

Sharing photos on Views and Google Maps is also about helping you create a beautiful photo map of all the places you go and helping you remember your experiences there (and perhaps even to help guide a friend). The more often you take photos, the better your map helps you. And, if you do professional work for clients, it’s about giving you more exposure to help you monetize your work and helping them maximize visibility for potential customers.

When Panoramio began, few people had smartphones and nobody shared photos from them. Now most of us have phones in our pockets with optics and image processing abilities that produce excellent photos.

No camera produces excellent photos, but most cameras (including smartphones) are capable of producing excellent photos. As an armature photography enthusiast, I am a little miffed at at the suggest it is the camera that does the work. Take some time to look at random geotagged photos on Google+. You will find the vast majority of the smartphone ones:

• Are technically weak
• Suck compositionally
• Suck in subject matter

It's not because the camera sucks, it's because the person holding it has no idea what they are doing, and does not care. If you gave that same person a top-tier DSLR their photos would still suck because they would still not care. Those of us who have contributed huge numbers of hours and significant amounts of skill to Panoramio have done so because we actually care about the quality. Almost to a person, we don't want to have our images start competing with the neighbor's cat after falling in the pool or the underside of some drunk guy's tongue. I am really disappointed that those kinds of subjects are gong to have an automatic pathway to GM, and I am shocked that the Geo team would even consider degrading the Maps photo database that way.

Talented photographers everywhere are turning to smartphones as “their other camera” producing amazing images that challenge people’s expectations of what’s possible. And, non-photographers with a little creativity are discovering they too can now create good photos with their phone. And, of course, all of these devices have GPS, making it easier than ever to add photos to a map.

This also contributes to the problem. They know they are snapping Mary's magnolias to show aunt Edna. They don't realize they are geotagging them and putting them on the map for the whole world to have to wade through. How can this possibly fit into a positive view of any Google product?

Billions of smart phones are the key to enabling Google Maps to provide you with accurate, comprehensive, and recent photos that help you make decisions about where to go or recognize the location when you get there.

Sorry, but smartphone photos of Billy's Bar and Grill may be properly mapped, but they are not going to show Billy's Bar & Grill and they are not going to help me find it either. But they will show that drunk chick's tattoo.

Finally, Panoramio is built on old infrastructure that can no longer be maintained. We chose to rebuild it, and we did so in Views. This will enable us to provide more reliable services and far more features as the community grows.

I have done major infrastructure migration at least four times.  One of those times, the user interface had to be re-written.  But guess what?  It looked like and acted like the old interface.  Are you saying the vast resources of Google are not capable of doing that????

So, let’s get specific about what we’re doing...

Here are the details about the migration to Views:

• Curation tools to customize your profile, since we recognize that photographers want control over how their work is displayed. This will include something like the “Best” feature that Panoramio has today.

There's a lot more to gallery curation than a single tag.

• An easy-to-use migration flow to bring your full resolution Panoramio photos, metadata, and viewcounts into Views. If you’ve already exported Panoramio photos to Google+, you may have duplicates, but our album naming schema should make this easy for you to manage.

This is the first glimmer of good news I've read yet. Users have been requesting some sort of album mechanism for Panoramio for years.

• We will migrate your viewcounts!

Viewcounts are fun, and I have tracked mine for some time, but I have posted elsewhere that nobody is ever going to engrave on my headstone that I had X million views on Panoramio. It's not going to happen with Views either. Viewcounts are not as important as anyone thinks.

• For now, we suggest leaving your Panoramio photos where they are, but trying out Views for some new photos. When the migration flow is enabled, you’ll avoid more duplication and your viewcounts will be retained.

• If you choose, your photos that remain on Panoramio un-migrated will continue to be seen on Google Earth and Google Maps (far beyond the migration) if they are associated with a Google account.

Like I said, most Panoramio users have already made the decision not to do this.  Trying to force it on them will likely have the opposite effect.

The following data and features will not be migrated:

• Groups (which has not been popular in Panoramio)

I'm not going to cry over the loss of Groups. But groups are a good feature to compare to this migration. They were not requested by the community, most of the defects were never fixed, and they received virtually none of the new features requested. It is no surprise that they are not popular. I hope you recognize the pattern when the same happens with the Panoramio migration to Views, because I see it already going in the same direction.

• Favorite photographers (though we’re considering similar features)

• Comments (since we can’t move comments to Views for those who don’t migrate)

Of all the things the Panoramio community would want to see endure, only the photos themselves top the comments, and in many (possibly most) cases, comments are more important than the photos.  I have copies of my photos locally.  But the comments only exist on Panoramio.

Thank you for being part of the Panoramio community and contributing your photos to help others explore the world. As we migrate to Views, which is a very new product, I assure you we will not do so until we believe the communities needs are met.

Thank you,

Brian McClendon

Vice President, Google Maps

[hvbemmel]

Thanks Tom,  

I can only second your opinion. Me too.

Oh yes a have a smartphone, more then one, and I have tablet and I have a laptop and of course I have a desktop.

Photos I make with my smartphone are perfectly fit for Picasaweb / G+, although mostly I use a phone to talk to other people. Although I´m not a great photographer, I´m still learning, photos I put in Panoramio are made at least with a simple camera, but mostly with a DSLR, processed on my laptop or desktop, there I have the programs that can really post process photos. 

This is Windows 8 all over, went overboard after a few days on my desktop, on my laptop it works with a forced W7 environment. At least Microsoft seems to have learned something from it, Google wants to learn it for itself. If you don´t go mobile, you do not belong. well so be it. reading this forum I´m not alone. 

Eduardo Manchon and Joacuin Quenca made an awesome site. A site where communication between users was as important as the photographs they delivered. So now we are at the point where smartphones come in, the point where communication stops and people do not speak with the person next to them, but text with someone else. Google wants to provide a platform for those people. But they also want to force those people who still want to communicate on a personal level to leave that alone. 

Well it´s simple, when I´m not allowed to communicate with people and am not allowed to make pictures better then a blurry sun on a tilted horizon, I can as well do it somewhere else as in Views. 

 

[~Marlene~]

And as hard as it may be to believe, I do not even own or use a smartphone! I guess that definitely leaves me in the past wondering what wonderful lives the rest of the world leads while I continue to communicate personally with the few friends I will not be cut off from. In some ways, I think technology is not such a good thing, particularly when driven by profit and not real needs. Too bad…

P.S.

It's not the number of views that is important… it's who is doing the viewing and your interaction with that viewer that makes the photo view worth it.

[Daniela Brocca]

Same here,Marlene. I have only a mobile to phone and send SMS, I don't need to be all the time connected, even if I'm a moderator.

Yes, I agree, comments have been with photos the most important for Panoramio users. With personal comments   Panoramio became  from the beginning a community, that it's not a social network. Form 2007 we had  hundreds of meetings, first in the own country and later also in other countries or with people of other countries. Like others users in all the world I've met hundreds of other users, many more than once. As a moderators I met the other moderators too and it was a joy as in the other meetings.  Panoramio is about comments.

What about the forum? I did not see a word about the forum, where we now are, where we have years of games. Nobody speaks of that. Nobody speaks of the  great work made by Rob Stamp and Wim Janssen( from two different countries)  to make programs to help play, vote, count, what was not done by Google. Because nobody of the team ever came to see how it's work. We lost a huge amount of people  when we changed the forum and even more with the new interface. But they did go on with the work , changed the programs to help us, made a form to entry the photos in the posts of the  forum that is way simpler and better  than the way of Google. 

I'm not a computer programmer but I'm here so many years now that I see a good work. And so sad to say that I fear that will not be one.

[Stefano Mascioli]

The following data and features will not be migrated:

• Groups (which has not been popular in Panoramio)

• Favorite photographers (though we’re considering similar features)

• Comments (since we can’t move comments to Views for those who don’t migrate)

These were the only reasons why I'm still on Panoramio!

[Roger Heath]

Stefano - I second your appreciation of Groups, and looking at favorites. We know that most of the time we were admiring the work of Photographers, and not a "snapshot" with no thought prior to using the phone.

[Shain Paiment]

I say have views and Panoramio both. Put them on both Google maps. The people how love Panoramio  can stay. I don't have a smartphone, I better things to do with my money.

[Diane - No Views]

Ladies, I too have a dumb-phone and always will.  I am not interested in being in constant touch, in fact I try not to be.  Younger people like it and apparently need pictures of weed dispensaries to decide where to buy.  That's fine with me.  I don't care about their Facebook pages or their texts and they don't care about my photos or my embarrassing habit of using an HP laptop.  So, this is largely a generational thing.  The same thing has been in process for several years with the Google Earth Community.  That remarkable and intelligent community was destroyed, but OK, it's Google's product, they can do that and move on...and on...  

Here is some realistic stuff I've learned in my long work life:  when the boss breaks up a well-oiled team (a "community") and transfers people somewhere else, or gives them different jobs, against their wishes and most passionate arguments, there will be huge out-migration.  The culture that worked so well is not ever coming back, not in a new setting, not in your dreams.  The team as you knew it is dead. It's the same for any culture.  If you don't adapt, you simply have to leave. The boss has already decided, even if the boss is soliciting opinions and suggestions.  (By the end of my career, I finally figured out what B.S. that meeting is - stupid me!)  To carry the analogy further, the boss has no idea how you do what you do every day.  If everyone's upset, they're just "resistant to change" and "being negative," never are they bringing up legitimate concerns.  The people making these changes are often very young and I congratulate them for moving up to the cutting edge.  What they don't know, yet, is that in two or three decades they will understand exactly what you're talking about.  

GE/Maps and View are heading down the Twitter, Instagram and Yelp road (never mind that Yelp markers are usually off by blocks and, often, so are GE/Maps markers, so you still have to use your brain to find things). The more this is discussed, the less I care about having _any_ of my photos on GE and I certainly don't want Google storing my photos for me on G+.  (Google products and policies have become so ever-changing, complex and overlapping that I never trust that what's private in one place is private in another.)  No big deal, I'm just an ordinary person who likes to take pictures, use the internet to show them and talk about them with like-minded people. The young and the restless are smart and demand way more than that of technology.  Low on the list seems to be privacy and sustained discussion about things outside themselves.  Right, Marlene, that leaves us behind.

Without the community and the burning desire to have my photos of the local Mexican eateries on Google Earth (you're supposed to say Maps/Earth, now) there is no reason for me to use Views, even if I liked it.  Even if there is a person passing through my town who is dying for Mexican and is so helpless he can't find a burrito without his iPhone.  And, by the way, I don't feel at all responsible for helping him find one, nor fulfilled if he really loves my combination-plate photos.  

P.S.  I do, however, have a Google Nexus tablet.  My granddaughter loves it -- lol!

[~Marlene~]

You go girl! And I only read books with real paper pages, too!

On Friday, September 19, 2014 10:50:38 PM UTC-5, Diane - No Views wrote:

Ladies, I too have a dumb-phone and always will.  I am not interested in being in constant touch, in fact I try not to be.  Younger people like it and apparently need pictures of weed dispensaries to decide where to buy.  That's fine with me.  I don't care about their Facebook pages or their texts and they don't care about my photos or my embarrassing habit of using an HP laptop.  So, this is largely a generational thing.  The same thing has been in process for several years with the Google Earth Community.  That remarkable and intelligent community was destroyed, but OK, it's Google's product, they can do that and move on...and on...  

Here is some realistic stuff I've learned in my long work life:  when the boss breaks up a well-oiled team (a "community") and transfers people somewhere else, or gives them different jobs, against their wishes and most passionate arguments, there will be huge out-migration.  The culture that worked so well is not ever coming back, not in a new setting, not in your dreams.  The team as you knew it is dead. It's the same for any culture.  If you don't adapt, you simply have to leave. The boss has already decided, even if the boss is soliciting opinions and suggestions.  (By the end of my career, I finally figured out what B.S. that meeting is - stupid me!)  To carry the analogy further, the boss has no idea how you do what you do every day.  If everyone's upset, they're just "resistant to change" and "being negative," never are they bringing up legitimate concerns.  The people making these changes are often very young and I congratulate them for moving up to the cutting edge.  What they don't know, yet, is that in two or three decades they will understand exactly what you're talking about.  

GE/Maps and View are heading down the Twitter, Instagram and Yelp road (never mind that Yelp markers are usually off by blocks and, often, so are GE/Maps markers, so you still have to use your brain to find things). The more this is discussed, the less I care about having _any_ of my photos on GE and I certainly don't want Google storing my photos for me on G+.  (Google products and policies have become so ever-changing, complex and overlapping that I never trust that what's private in one place is private in another.)  No big deal, I'm just an ordinary person who likes to take pictures, use the internet to show them and talk about them with like-minded people. The young and the restless are smart and demand way more than that of technology.  Low on the list seems to be privacy and sustained discussion about things outside themselves.  Right, Marlene, that leaves us behind.

Without the community and the burning desire to have my photos of the local Mexican eateries on Google Earth (you're supposed to say Maps/Earth, now) there is no reason for me to use Views, even if I liked it.  Even if there is a person passing through my town who is dying for Mexican and is so helpless he can't find a burrito without his iPhone.  And, by the way, I don't feel at all responsible for helping him find one, nor fulfilled if he really loves my combination-plate photos.  

On Friday, September 19, 2014 12:50:22 PM UTC-7, ~Marlene~ wrote:

And as hard as it may be to believe, I do not even own or use a smartphone! I guess that definitely leaves me in the past wondering what wonderful lives the rest of the world leads while I continue to communicate personally with the few friends I will not be cut off from. In some ways, I think technology is not such a good thing, particularly when driven by profit and not real needs. Too bad…

P.S.

It's not the number of views that is important… it's who is doing the viewing and your interaction with that viewer that makes the photo view worth it.

On Friday, September 19, 2014 2:39:24 PM UTC-5, hvbemmel wrote:

[hvbemmel]

Diane - No Views wrote:

Without the community and the burning desire to have my photos of the local Mexican eateries on Google Earth (you're supposed to say Maps/Earth, now) there is no reason for me to use Views, even if I liked it.  Even if there is a person passing through my town who is dying for Mexican and is so helpless he can't find a burrito without his iPhone.  And, by the way, I don't feel at all responsible for helping him find one, nor fulfilled if he really loves my combination-plate photos.  

I so do agree Diane. 

Opposite to you I do use all technicalities the new time offers, I use internet for a lot of things. But I never forget that these things are there to help us, not to be our boss. I thought my pupils and children you can use a calculator , but  there is no need to do it always. At the moment they started to us a calculator to calculate how much 4*7 was I took it a way. Oh yes, I do notice when there is no power, but I don´t mind to take a real book then (when my E-readers batteries are depleted of course :-) ) . All shops close, the doors won´t open, you can not buy anything because the machines don´t work. 

So why do I need my cellphone to find a burito. When I´m strange in a city I walk along the streets and look if I find a restaurant that appeals to me. In GM I will find the most beautiful photo and in the end it can be crap. I once booked a hotel that had a fitness room, sooo big and soooo full of equipment. (not that I wanted that). When I came there the room was 4*4 m. The mirrors that made it bigger for the photo were gone, the few fitness materials were stashed in a corner. No, I don´t need my smartphone for that.

I used old Google Maps and Streetview to plan walks or drives, to have an impression of how things look when I walk there, great. I use Panoramio photos to really see what a place does to people.  Since the new GM streetview is less interesting as the map in the corner is hardly visible, let alone the next street. The function to enlarge that map was taken away and so Streetview became useless.

I sometimes use Maps on my tablet, but the app sucks, does not have the features I´m looking for, so I use my browser and can as easy use my desktop which has a real keyboard.

I love the new things to play with, but I also love to communicate with people I can touch and see without a camera. Is that part of a generation conflict? I doubt it. My children love computers, my grandson too. But they also can live without a smartphone. Oh, it´s so easy to put your children behind a smartphone, you don´t have to look after them anymore, you don´t even have to hug them or love them. Generation conflict? In my perception it´s education.  

[Peter NO VIEWS]

Well Tom you appointed youself as our spokesman. ;-)

Here is a little contribution of me: 

It is Googles choice to connect G+ to Panoramio. A quick look at my my list of favorite photographers shows that under half have their PA account connected to G+. One of my personal reasons that I don't want to be associated with G+ is copyright breach. It makes me think that PA has a higher standard. Users that were banned from PA are living well on G+ and continue to pass off pictures as their own. So the same rules have different outcome. I don't have any numbers but in Norway the young use Facebook and G+  seems not popular. Forcing this 'small' (as been said) community into G+ won't make it G+more popular.

[Hans Sterkendries]

Tom, a much appreciated initiative! I hate it when people post this kind of announcement, then block the possibility to react. Here are a few things I wanted to add.

Folks,

I’ve been following some of the discussions on this forum regarding the future migration of Panoramio to Views, and I would like to expand on Evan’s statement with some context on how Panoramio and Views fit into the larger picture.

First, let me be clear that we will provide an easy way for you to migrate all your Panoramio photos, their metadata, and their viewcounts to Views. Your photos will be saved into public albums in Google+ and we will provide you a Google Drive storage bonus to cover the additional data usage. And, when we shut down Panoramio, if you do not wish to move your photos over to Views, you can simply download them and not migrate.

We now have vitually unlimited storage space. Personaly I have more than 108 Gb of pictures on Panoramio. The way I read this announcement the Google Drive storage bonus will only be for PUBLIC albums in Google+, hence the material that is automatically shared in Views. So either you share your pictures on Views or you bump into the limits of Google Drive.

As the lead for Google Maps, a co-founder of Google Earth, and a passionate photographer, I’ve always had a great appreciation and love for the Panoramio community. The photos in Panoramio have helped countless people in Google Maps and Google Search to make decisions about where to travel. I believe Views is an important next step for us to grow the photography community to better serve the one billion people who use Google Maps every month.

I want everyone to understand why we made the very difficult decision to migrate Panoramio to Views. Our reasons fall into the following categories:

• new requirements that mobile users have when using Google Maps

• increased availability of affordable GPS-enabled cameras, primarily smartphones

• technical limitations of old infrastructure

As a passionate photographer you would understand what is important for photographers. This community has always expressed a strong opposition against smartphone photography. Like it or not but most pictures taken with a smartphone are still inferior in quality, and most smartphones are handled by people who don't really care about photography. I'm sure you are secretly dreaming of a new Instagram but what Views will do is further dilute our photos with crappy pictures, the ones that where kept out of the GE/GM selction by the Panoramio reviewers.

The world has gone mobile. Smartphone growth is incredible. Google Maps has now been installed on over one BILLION Android and iOS devices. People use our mobile apps to navigate, but also to make daily decisions about where to go (restaurants, hiking trails, hotels, and more). People need to see photos for these locations.

Sharing photos on Views and Google Maps is also about helping you create a beautiful photo map of all the places you go and helping you remember your experiences there (and perhaps even to help guide a friend). The more often you take photos, the better your map helps you. And, if you do professional work for clients, it’s about giving you more exposure to help you monetize your work and helping them maximize visibility for potential customers.

So now it's OUR fault Google never created a decent mobile app for Google Maps and/or Panoramio?

When Panoramio began, few people had smartphones and nobody shared photos from them. Now most of us have phones in our pockets with optics and image processing abilities that produce excellent photos. Talented photographers everywhere are turning to smartphones as “their other camera” producing amazing images that challenge people’s expectations of what’s possible. And, non-photographers with a little creativity are discovering they too can now create good photos with their phone. And, of course, all of these devices have GPS, making it easier than ever to add photos to a map. Billions of smart phones are the key to enabling Google Maps to provide you with accurate, comprehensive, and recent photos that help you make decisions about where to go or recognize the location when you get there.

Finally, Panoramio is built on old infrastructure that can no longer be maintained. We chose to rebuild it, and we did so in Views. This will enable us to provide more reliable services and far more features as the community grows.

So, let’s get specific about what we’re doing...

Here are the details about the migration to Views:

• Curation tools to customize your profile, since we recognize that photographers want control over how their work is displayed. This will include something like the “Best” feature that Panoramio has today.

• An easy-to-use migration flow to bring your full resolution Panoramio photos, metadata, and viewcounts into Views. If you’ve already exported Panoramio photos to Google+, you may have duplicates, but our album naming schema should make this easy for you to manage.

• We will migrate your viewcounts!

• For now, we suggest leaving your Panoramio photos where they are, but trying out Views for some new photos. When the migration flow is enabled, you’ll avoid more duplication and your viewcounts will be retained.

• If you choose, your photos that remain on Panoramio un-migrated will continue to be seen on Google Earth and Google Maps (far beyond the migration) if they are associated with a Google account.

The following data and features will not be migrated:

• Groups (which has not been popular in Panoramio)

• Favorite photographers (though we’re considering similar features)

• Comments (since we can’t move comments to Views for those who don’t migrate)

Thank you for being part of the Panoramio community and contributing your photos to help others explore the world. As we migrate to Views, which is a very new product, I assure you we will not do so until we believe the communities needs are met.

That is promise that means absolutely nothing to us after earlier experiences with the Panormaio Groups and the new design. We are still waiting for all the feedback to be implemented.

[Peter NO VIEWS]

A personal history.

Yes, a personal history, because the PA community consists of people not digital data.

A few years ago, lying ill in bed I listened to a (MP3) book. John Irving wrote this marvellous book, 'Last Night in Twisted River'. I had the idea to look up some of the places, that were named in the book, on Google Earth. Big was my surprise when I found out that I could follow the ENTIRE book on GE too. There and then I decided that I wanted to be part of this and give my contribution. I discovered Panoramio and a vibrant community. It was not VANITY that made me join, but real engagement. And I protest strongly to the arrogant statement by Evan Rapoport. Google should give me and many others some credit for the high quality photographs and information we contributed with during the years. I have the strong feeling that Google is not interested in PA at all, at least not in its photographers. PA is a living comunity and many do not want to be absorbed by G+. As I understand by the statement of Brian McClendon, Google is going for QUANTITY rather than QUALITY. This contradicts the statements from TEAM members that they are pasionate about photography. Yes, I feel engagement and ownership to PA and GE, how naive that might be. I guess my gallery is the proof for what I claim... making PA and GE better. Google should show US the courtesy by giving us first class information and involve us in any future... It is clear to me Google can't do it alone. As for now, Google does not deserve more of my work.

kl. 21:03:24 UTC+2 fredag 19. september 2014 skrev © Tom Cooper not going to Views følgende:

[RoarX]

My thoughts:

"The world has gone mobile. Smartphone growth is incredible. Google Maps has now been installed on over one BILLION Android and iOS devices. People use our mobile apps to navigate, but also to make daily decisions about where to go (restaurants, hiking trails, hotels, and more). People need to see photos for these locations."

So, basically, smart phone use downgraded Google maps for desktop and killed Panoramio... What a disaster!

"For now, we suggest leaving your Panoramio photos where they are, but trying out Views for some new photos. When the migration flow is enabled, you’ll avoid more duplication and your viewcounts will be retained."

This gives me a creepy feeling. Currently there is no designated uploader for content from PC to Views. I must upload my photos to G+ photos, and then use the Views photo uploader to add the photo to Views (i'm talking about photospheres here). The the photo is duplicated back into G+ photos. This is cumbersome and doesn't feel right. Ordinary photos that since last week have appeared in the photo tab in Views are simply geotagged, uploaded to G+ photos and made public. They suddenly appeared in Views without my consent. Please note that G+ photos have a very simple geotag feature that works on one by one photo only. The quoted sentence above indicates that it will stay this way. Today, photos added to G+ photos does not use of the free storage limit as long as they are under 2048 pixels on the longest edge. In the setting you can choose if you want all photo uploads reduced to this size or if you want to go full size. This means that adding ordinary photos to Views will meet the same limitations as G+ photos. That is a serious downgrade from what we are used to in Panoramio. Very disappointing! Our photos migrated from Panoramio will not use of the free storage limit, how kind of Google...

It seem to me that photos taken by real cameras, carefully captured and post processed are no longer welcomed in GM/GE, only smart phone photos... The process of getting them on GM/GE is cumbersome and upping photos in full quality/ resolution is punished with use of the free storage quota. No designated uploader with proper mapping tool like Panoramio have today will be offered? Then why should I spend the extra energy on getting good photos into Views?

My photos will also have to compete for views against photos of pizza slices on a dinner table, hotel rooms and aunt Bertha's garden. Adding photos to GM/GE is getting steadily less and less fun. 

I may continue to contribute if Google Earth remains, and will still be using a proper Photo layer instead of the useless photo bar.

"Thank you for being part of the Panoramio community and contributing your photos to help others explore the world. "

You welcome! I tried to do my best, but now I don't feel welcomed in that new platform called Views. You guys say one thing, but the product and solutions offered say something else. I'm not attractive to Google unless I switch to taking photos with a smartphone, and dump my PC with a 24' monitor for a tablet.

[txllxt]

I just tried the photosphere item on the Google Views tryout-page with no avail. The uploadfacility offered on this page seems medievally uninformative. Either my 360° panoramas are simply too big (blowing up the Google Views shackles), or the page is dead or Google Views doesn't accept panoramas made with Microsoft's ICE. The Google Views page offers IMO lots of unsharp panoramas and the automatic merry-go-round turnabout doesn't have the zooming-in possibilities of Panoramio. Personally I'm aiming for the grandest & sharpest panoramas with extreme zooming-in possibilities on my 32'' monitor and sharing them with people who like photo quality in the first place. Perhaps 'Views' is still in its infant stage, or do they really want me to switch to a 7'' smartphone? 

On Saturday, September 20, 2014 4:37:56 PM UTC+2, RoarX wrote:

My thoughts:

"The world has gone mobile. Smartphone growth is incredible. Google Maps has now been installed on over one BILLION Android and iOS devices. People use our mobile apps to navigate, but also to make daily decisions about where to go (restaurants, hiking trails, hotels, and more). People need to see photos for these locations."

So, basically, smart phone use downgraded Google maps for desktop and killed Panoramio... What a disaster!

"For now, we suggest leaving your Panoramio photos where they are, but trying out Views for some new photos. When the migration flow is enabled, you’ll avoid more duplication and your viewcounts will be retained."

This gives me a creepy feeling. Currently there is no designated uploader for content from PC to Views. I must upload my photos to G+ photos, and then use the Views photo uploader to add the photo to Views (i'm talking about photospheres here). The the photo is duplicated back into G+ photos. This is cumbersome and doesn't feel right. Ordinary photos that sinse last week have apeared in the photo tab in Views are simply geotagged, uploaded to G+ photos and made public. They suddenly appeared in Views without my consent. Plesae not that G+ photos have a very simple geotag feature that works on one by one photo only. The quoted sentence above indicates that it will stay this way. Today, photos added to G+ photos does not use of the free storage limit as long as they are under 2048 pixels on the longest edge. In the setting you can choose if you want all photo uploads reduced to this size or if you want to go full size. This means that adding ordinary photos to Views will meet the same limitations as G+ photos. That is a serious downgrade from what we are used to in Panoramio. Very disappointing! Our photos migrated from Panoramio will not use of the free storage limit, how kind of Google...

It seem to me that photos taken by real cameras, carefully captured and post processed are no longer welcomed in GM/GE, only smart phone photos... The process of getting them on GM/GE is cumbersome and upping photos in full quality/ resolution is punished with use of the free storage quota. No designated uploader with proper mapping tool like Panoramio have today will be offered? Then why should I spend the extra energy on getting good photos into Views?

My photos will also have to compete for views against photos of pizza slices on a dinner table, hotel rooms and aunt Bertha's garden. Adding photos to GM/GE is getting steadily less and less fun. 

I may continue to contribute if Google Earth remains, and will still be using a proper Photo layer instead of the useless photo bar.

"Thank you for being part of the Panoramio community and contributing your photos to help others explore the world. "

[RoarX]

"Either my 360° panoramas are simply too big (blowing up the Google Views shackles)"

As I said in my last post in this thread, you must use G+ photos for uploading into Views. The limitations you are experiencing may be related to limitations in G+ photos. I think the limit is 50 mp. Easy to reach with a 360x180 photo. I upload mine at 10000 x 5000 pixels.

"The Google Views page offers IMO lots of unsharp panoramas"

Could be because most of the photos are made with smart phones. It was just recently that  the limit was raised to 50 mp.

"and the automatic merry-go-round turnabout doesn't have the zooming-in possibilities of Panoramio."

It does, use mouse wheel to zoom in and out.

"Personally I'm aiming for the grandest & sharpest panoramas with extreme zooming-in possibilities on my 32'' monitor and sharing them with people who like photo quality in the first place."

Don't. At least not when using Views because of the current size limitations.

BTW, did you remember to add XML metadata? G+ can do that for you if you have "Autoawesome" enabled, but the photo cannot be too big or it will crash. The size limit for that seems to be a closely guarded secret... Otherwise you must add the metadata on your own computer or use that metadata site provided by Google.

[vladanscekic- NO Views !]

"When Panoramio began, few people had smartphones and nobody shared photos from them. Now most of us have phones in our pockets with optics and image processing abilities that produce excellent photos. Talented photographers everywhere are turning to smartphones as “their other camera” producing amazing images that challenge people’s expectations of what’s possible. And, non-photographers with a little creativity are discovering they too can now create good photos with their phone. And, of course, all of these devices have GPS, making it easier than ever to add photos to a map. Billions of smart phones are the key to enabling Google Maps to provide you with accurate, comprehensive, and recent photos that help you make decisions about where to go or recognize the location when you get there."

  Nikon,Canon, Olympus, Fuji, Sony, Pentax,Leica,  etc... did you read this?   Do not waste your precious time making useless products, change production and make SMARTPHONES !!! Aha!!!

 

[txllxt]

Thanks for the info. Now I took the G+ road for the 1st time and I hope that my first uploaded panorama on 'Views' will look the same as on Panoramio. My main worry was the possible degradation to good-enough-for-a-smartphone, but you state it's not. So for the moment I just continue to use the old style Panoramio. By the way I noticed, that the geolocation of G+ is more elegant and not that aggressive as Panoramio's

[Christos Theodorou]

Dear friends, 

I read many of your opinions. I wrote mine, through comments at the site, and I also tried to inform many pano-friends, they weren't informed.

First of all, I think that Panoramio isn't a simple site for passing time. Panoramio is art, civilisation and mainly talented people with excellent galleries. 

Personal contact is the most important than smartphones. Is not only to say "good, excellent, marvelous, fantastic photo". Many times I received wonderful messages from my favorite photographers and other pano-friends and from my part I'm still  trying, through my photos, to give informations about locations, facilities, history, litterature, architecture, music etc. With many photographers I have a good relationship and we talk about many things, more than typical messages.

Yes, me too, I have one smartphone, this is progress in technology, but when I want to see photos I prefer my PC and not my smartphone. Because to see well a photo, you need a wide screen and not a 2,5 or 3,00 intches one. Certainly as technology progresses anyone can take excellent photos with smartphones. As I'm saying in my Panoramio profile "The better cameras in the world are human eye and mind. So, if someone isn't a professional photographer, he must trust his views and ideas of capture". But youger people use smartphones only for Facebook, SMS or MMS and nothing else. Last summer, during my holidays, many young people asked me to take their pictures with their own smartphone and after seeing at their picture, they asked me "Oh it's very nice ! How you did it ?"

I believe that, when technology ignores people, this is not a progress. So, why not to build a new stadium in the desert, far away from cities ? 

I understand very well the interest of the company to increase the circle of influence and profit from the new application. I'm not opposite, this is normal in business affairs. But in this site expose their works 4.166.881 people. This is not a so big number (it's just a city like Athens, Greece).

Last year, Panoramio had a new form due to the requirements of the times. Just one year after this option is judged as ineffective, in view of the company's decision to shut it down. 

I created my account in Views, because I don't wanτ to loose my work. Surfing on it, I shaw that the most viewed photo is a totaly indifferent photo of the National Bank of Greece ! And I Know very well the reasons ! :-) On the other hand, images that I consider worthy, have few views. Migrating statistics gives an absolutely different image of the photographer. 

 

Finaly, I am sure that any decision can be changed. I suppose that Google doesn't want to promote only a new application, but also the culture and arts. 

Panoramio can co-exist with Views, our "favorite photographers" to exist, because this is the human communication at the internet, and both statistics can appear separately. 

I believe that, finally there is a solution for all the issues that arise, if all of us show the right mood to help, each in his own way, to create a truly remarkable application that takes into account the culture and people.

Kind regards 

Christos Theodorou

[chris65]

OK, I'm going to say something that I'm sure won't be popular right now. That is Thank you Brian for the the information. You saved me a bunch of work uploading my pictures to the new service. Had the information been a little more timely it would have been better but that's life.

I'm old enough that I've had my butt kicked by change not only often enough to be used to it but often enough to expect it. I'll give it ten years before the next crop of people are whingeing mightily about the discontinuation of views and the shortcomings of its replacement.

In the meantime I'll be happy that there is still a venue where I can share my photos with people. I have learnt a great deal from the photographers of panoramio about both the technical and artistic aspects of photography for which I am very grateful (Hans, Draken, Davidmc and many, many others) It's been a real fun ride and I appreciate all that the site is and was while looking forward to what views will offer us. Sure there are some issues but google are actively working on this one. They may not make it what the PA users want but they have a bigger picture in mind. That happens when you have shareholders.

[vkalathil]

Completely agree with you. Panoramio expanded my horizons and I really have come a long way in the last few years. Change is inevitable and in this case, it is a sea change driven mobile adoption by most of the world. One look at the drastic fall in sales of PCs will tell you the picture. This had to happen to stay relevant. In fact I have been using G+ over a year and have been a part of the photography communities there. There is definitely lot of crap on G+ however, there are excellent curated communities and top notch photographers like Scott Kelby and Trey Ratcliff. The quality, breadth and variety of photographs there are excellent. Views has a long way to go, but I really think that Google is going put in a lot of effort there because it really integrates better with their platform. 

[motorhand]

Why not selling the Panoramio brand, including the database, to another map service like bing for example ?

Panoramigos could stay together, the others could move to a google toy.

[~Marlene~ No Views!]

Matthias… this article may explain why Google is so anxious to force everyone into Google+ rather than leaving Panoramio independent…

https://www.linkedin.com/today/post/article/20140918140322-1321910-why-google-plus-is-irrelevant?_mSplash=1

[hvbemmel]

Thanks Marlene, 

I quote one, o so true sentence, which can be translated for Views, new GM and the present situation too.

....... sad to say, Google Plus now very much appears to be the answer to a question nobody asked. 

I´d like to add following quote from Jurassic Park, that I think m.m. fits the PA situation:

Dr. Ian Malcolm: ...... Um, I'll tell you the problem with the scientific power that you're using here, it didn't require any discipline to attain it. You read what others had done and you took the next step. You didn't earn the knowledge for yourselves, so you don't take any responsibility for it. You stood on the shoulders of geniuses to accomplish something as fast as you could, and before you even knew what you had, .......your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could that they didn't stop to think if they should.

[~Marlene~ No Views!]

That is a great and very appropriate quote, Herman!!! :-)

[Wim Constant]

Hear, hear!

Op zondag 21 september 2014 08:11:22 UTC+2 schreef ~Marlene~ No Views!:

[© Tom Cooper not going to Views]

The only reason I'm on Google+ is because Facebook made me angry enough to delete my account.

While it is unlikely, it is possible Facebook could end up doing that again, on a much bigger scale.

That's the only long-term hope Google+ has.

[df3vi]

Microsoft's bing does not seem to be a better haven at all. You may not know, but Microsoft has a little known service called "Photosphere" which is similar to what GViews used to be until last week; presenting wide panoramas and spherical shots. While Photosphere uses Bing Maps to locate their photos on a map, Microsoft never managed to integrate this service into their Bing Maps.

I thought about Google simply giving back the service to where they bought it, i.e. the founders of Panoramio. However I doubt that they will have the money to maintain the service, as it is quite cost intensive to host so many data and to pay for the hugh amount of data traffic. There was an estimation about costs of 50 Million Dollar for setting up such a site, even though I expect this to be too high, but even for a fraction of this sum it will be hard to bring up the money.

[Draken]

df3vi

I have sent you a PM.Please read it. Thanks

[Tomas K☼h☼ut]

My response to Views announcements (Evan, Brian):

As the Views are more than less a prototype of a new service at the moment, it's too soon to tell if they will be good or bad replacement for Panoramio or not. And for me to decide if I will follow the route and migrate to Views or not. General scenario for me: I will let my photos exist on GE (and Maps) and I will move to the site, where core Panoramio community will be. Views, G+(?), Flickr, Zonerama - whatever with community, virtually unlimited upload, no photo resampling (online backup) and... evaluated stable future.

I will appreciate some more detailed information about Panoramio - Views transition and roadmap of this process:

- milestones dates (approximate - are we counting down days, weeks, months or couple of years)?

- more info about rather technical aspects of migration - how to avoid duplicates, storage quota, ability to download original photos back from Views etc.

 

Brian's original post can be found here: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/panoramio-questions-support/R5toz0EAB8k 

The following data and features will not be migrated:

Groups (which has not been popular in Panoramio)

Favorite photographers (though we’re considering similar features)
Comments (since we can’t move comments to Views for those who don’t migrate)

All this is very bad new indeed.

Few remarks: 

Groups were accepted by Panoramio community with enthusiasm, love and great expectations. Idea of groups was good! But due to technical limitations (I would rather call it "unfinished and poorly designed features") Groups lost its popularity. No wonder. Users resigned to wait for upgrade. By throwing away groups many core users and group moderators will be upset (to say it in polite manner) by the waste of their effort they dedicated to make cooperative collections and moderate the content.

Favourite photographers and favourite photos are the way how newcomers on Panoramio can explore the best of the site and make its own collections of photos and friends. Without this (very important!) feature I would not be (s newcomer) interested in Panoramio. My first impression of Panoramio was: mess. Photos I can see and search on Panoramio map was the same as I can see on GE. But after looking at some popular photos on map I discover other favourite photos and photographers of authors of these photos - this is the "attraction of social network" here  and the way how to search for interesting photos and authors! 

In some extent, lack of Favourite photographers can be replaced with G+ circle(s) for personal purposes. So I can even organize my favourites on G+ in the style: "Extraordinary Pano photographers - Real life Pano friends from meetings - Users with interesting comments, feedback and help - Other Pano friends..." - but it does not help to visitors in the gallery, because they cannot see my circles structure, all they see is a mix of my all friends, including those private, family etc.  - outside photo activities!

Comments gone - it is the worst idea you can make. Yes, many comments were "noise" only - "Hello, Like, Fav, Thanks!". But some comments represent really interesting background information about the place, travelling in the area, technical aspects of making this photo... Exchange of this type of information seems to me is important for Panoramio and is quite unique here - I did not notice any site with such extensive info in comments. Wasting this info is a slap into the face of those who took their time to provide it. And Google is going to loose (?) interesting meta data for analysis. Why shall I migrate my photos to Views and no other service? Only to keep the viewcount, and no need to re-upload them again? Why to bother with commenting, if this can disappear again? Not a big deal...

And again - comments and comment stream in each user gallery was the perfect way how to introduce other active users. By watching a comment stream in each user gallery, you can meet new people and get know what they are interested in - it's superb and very natural way how to get involved. Public comment stream is harder to grasp at first sight, but it's genius solution driving the interaction and social network aspect of the site!

Migration of comments technical aspects - of course you cannot move comments for those who don't migrate. But it's same like here on Panoramio - is somebody deletes his account, his comments disappear from all photos and comment streams. If his account is "undeleted" - all his comments are back. So after migration of gallery, you can always migrate owner's comments. Comments of other users under this user photos may re-appear at the time when authors of comments migrate too. What's difficult there? Or it is supposed active Panoramio user will not migrate?

Other lacks of functionality/issues with Views

Panoramio is not only photos, comments, viewcounts and groups!

Don't forget about 

* tags (metadata not present on Views now!)
* kml files

* filtered map and photo explorer views (photos of user on map, photos with certain tag on map/in explorer)

* API, html templates backward compatability

* URL addressing scheme and (external) links to photos - links from other sites mimicking API and also from forum

We can also discuss minor issues like map too small (with respect of "site for geotagged photos" - applies to new Panoramio Acrylic interface and Views)...

[CMCarroll]

It was fun while it lasted. Then the pimps took over. It's unfortunate nice places get vandalized for money.

Enjoy the kittens and Cinderella Castle pix. Obviously, they sell.

Welcome to the Age of Crappy.

[CMCarroll]

[Heidiho (Views? No,thanks !)]

The following data and features will not be migrated:

 

Groups (which has not been popular in Panoramio)

• Favorite photographers (though we’re considering similar features)

Comments (since we can’t move comments to Views for those who don’t migrate)

These were the only reasons why I'm still on Panoramio!

 

  .... so I will follow Eduardo ! 

[hvbemmel]

In the mean time, on the other end of Google:

http://www.wordstream.com/blog/ws/2014/09/19/google-plus-gmail-integration

Will G+ be terminated soon?

Oh man, how can you make such a mess.

On Friday, 19 September 2014 21:03:24 UTC+2, © Tom Cooper not going to Views wrote:

Brian's original post can be found here: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/panoramio-questions-support/R5toz0EAB8k

My words will be in blue.

Folks,

I’ve been following some of the discussions on this forum regarding the future migration of Panoramio to Views, and I would like to expand on Evan’s statement with some context on how Panoramio and Views fit into the larger picture.

First, let me be clear that we will provide an easy way for you to migrate all your Panoramio photos, their metadata, and their viewcounts to Views. Your photos will be saved into public albums in Google+ and we will provide you a Google Drive storage bonus to cover the additional data usage. And, when we shut down Panoramio, if you do not wish to move your photos over to Views, you can simply download them and not migrate.

Moving photos to Google+ cuts out most of the Panoramio community. I have 96 favorite photographers, only 23 have made the connection to Google+. Of those 23, I have about 18 in my Google+ circles. Of those 18, I see Google+ posts from about 6. So out of 96, less than 25% made the connection, and of that 25%, less than 30% participate in Google+. The Panoramio community already made a decision not to go to Google+.

As the lead for Google Maps, a co-founder of Google Earth, and a passionate photographer, I’ve always had a great appreciation and love for the Panoramio community. The photos in Panoramio have helped countless people in Google Maps and Google Search to make decisions about where to travel. I believe Views is an important next step for us to grow the photography community to better serve the one billion people who use Google Maps every month.

Cutting out more than 75% of the participants is not growth.

I want everyone to understand why we made the very difficult decision to migrate Panoramio to Views. Our reasons fall into the following categories:

• new requirements that mobile users have when using Google Maps

• increased availability of affordable GPS-enabled cameras, primarily smartphones

• technical limitations of old infrastructure

Old infrastructure?  Panoramio was migrated from "old infrastructure" to Google servers several years ago.  We endured many months of a stalled service during the transition. But my 30+ years as a computer programmer has taught me that it is seldom necessary to change the user interface to replace underlying structure.  I have done that single handed with one of my company's products in less than 80 man hours in just the last six months.  I realize the scope of the Panoramio data is thousands or perhaps millions of times greater than the project I did, but infrastructure does not dictate user interaction, and it never should.

The world has gone mobile. Smartphone growth is incredible. Google Maps has now been installed on over one BILLION Android and iOS devices. People use our mobile apps to navigate, but also to make daily decisions about where to go (restaurants, hiking trails, hotels, and more). People need to see photos for these locations.

Sharing photos on Views and Google Maps is also about helping you create a beautiful photo map of all the places you go and helping you remember your experiences there (and perhaps even to help guide a friend). The more often you take photos, the better your map helps you. And, if you do professional work for clients, it’s about giving you more exposure to help you monetize your work and helping them maximize visibility for potential customers.

When Panoramio began, few people had smartphones and nobody shared photos from them. Now most of us have phones in our pockets with optics and image processing abilities that produce excellent photos.

No camera produces excellent photos, but most cameras (including smartphones) are capable of producing excellent photos. As an armature photography enthusiast, I am a little miffed at at the suggest it is the camera that does the work. Take some time to look at random geotagged photos on Google+. You will find the vast majority of the smartphone ones:

• Are technically weak
• Suck compositionally
• Suck in subject matter

It's not because the camera sucks, it's because the person holding it has no idea what they are doing, and does not care. If you gave that same person a top-tier DSLR their photos would still suck because they would still not care. Those of us who have contributed huge numbers of hours and significant amounts of skill to Panoramio have done so because we actually care about the quality. Almost to a person, we don't want to have our images start competing with the neighbor's cat after falling in the pool or the underside of some drunk guy's tongue. I am really disappointed that those kinds of subjects are gong to have an automatic pathway to GM, and I am shocked that the Geo team would even consider degrading the Maps photo database that way.

Talented photographers everywhere are turning to smartphones as “their other camera” producing amazing images that challenge people’s expectations of what’s possible. And, non-photographers with a little creativity are discovering they too can now create good photos with their phone. And, of course, all of these devices have GPS, making it easier than ever to add photos to a map.

This also contributes to the problem. They know they are snapping Mary's magnolias to show aunt Edna. They don't realize they are geotagging them and putting them on the map for the whole world to have to wade through. How can this possibly fit into a positive view of any Google product?

Billions of smart phones are the key to enabling Google Maps to provide you with accurate, comprehensive, and recent photos that help you make decisions about where to go or recognize the location when you get there.

Sorry, but smartphone photos of Billy's Bar and Grill may be properly mapped, but they are not going to show Billy's Bar & Grill and they are not going to help me find it either. But they will show that drunk chick's tattoo.

Finally, Panoramio is built on old infrastructure that can no longer be maintained. We chose to rebuild it, and we did so in Views. This will enable us to provide more reliable services and far more features as the community grows.

I have done major infrastructure migration at least four times.  One of those times, the user interface had to be re-written.  But guess what?  It looked like and acted like the old interface.  Are you saying the vast resources of Google are not capable of doing that????

So, let’s get specific about what we’re doing...

Here are the details about the migration to Views:

• Curation tools to customize your profile, since we recognize that photographers want control over how their work is displayed. This will include something like the “Best” feature that Panoramio has today.

There's a lot more to gallery curation than a single tag.

• An easy-to-use migration flow to bring your full resolution Panoramio photos, metadata, and viewcounts into Views. If you’ve already exported Panoramio photos to Google+, you may have duplicates, but our album naming schema should make this easy for you to manage.

This is the first glimmer of good news I've read yet. Users have been requesting some sort of album mechanism for Panoramio for years.

• We will migrate your viewcounts!

Viewcounts are fun, and I have tracked mine for some time, but I have posted elsewhere that nobody is ever going to engrave on my headstone that I had X million views on Panoramio. It's not going to happen with Views either. Viewcounts are not as important as anyone thinks.

• For now, we suggest leaving your Panoramio photos where they are, but trying out Views for some new photos. When the migration flow is enabled, you’ll avoid more duplication and your viewcounts will be retained.

• If you choose, your photos that remain on Panoramio un-migrated will continue to be seen on Google Earth and Google Maps (far beyond the migration) if they are associated with a Google account.

Like I said, most Panoramio users have already made the decision not to do this.  Trying to force it on them will likely have the opposite effect.

The following data and features will not be migrated:

• Groups (which has not been popular in Panoramio)

I'm not going to cry over the loss of Groups. But groups are a good feature to compare to this migration. They were not requested by the community, most of the defects were never fixed, and they received virtually none of the new features requested. It is no surprise that they are not popular. I hope you recognize the pattern when the same happens with the Panoramio migration to Views, because I see it already going in the same direction.

• Favorite photographers (though we’re considering similar features)

• Comments (since we can’t move comments to Views for those who don’t migrate)

Of all the things the Panoramio community would want to see endure, only the photos themselves top the comments, and in many (possibly most) cases, comments are more important than the photos.  I have copies of my photos locally.  But the comments only exist on Panoramio.

[Stefano Mascioli]

Another thing: 99% of regular users of Pano are not currently aware of the fate that awaits them. 

No email from the team, no official communication from management. 

The only communication was done through the forums, who, as said from the same management, will not be migrated because never worked!

How about democracy, focus on the users, shared condivision?

[txllxt]

With regard to groups I feel especially sorry for Domino & its offsprings (Six Twins etc.), because it is an intelligent game that builds interesting cross links between Panoramio users. Is there a way to save such groups?

[Roger Heath]

Herman - Interesting reading!

I found this interesting "Although the change means that new Gmail users will no longer be forced to sign up for Google+, they’ll still have the option to do so".

After deleting my Panoramio account, which required I delete my Google+ account, I realized I still wished to read and on occasion comment in the forum. This required a new identity via a new Google+ account. While going through the sign-up process I was assigned a new gmail email address, which I hadn't asked for. In hindsight this came about through the process of choosing a user name before I chose a new password. So to post here I have a new gmail account, a new Google+ account, and a new username in Google+!

There certainly are a lot of connected features within Google and I want nothing to do with them. I participated with Facebook a few years ago and when the privacy issues and "tracking" became convoluted, I realized I didn't want Facebook tracking my every post and deleted my account. Google is probably a much better "tracker" than Facebook, since I only need to buy something via Google search to get ads of that company at the bottom of each Youtube video, or other pages.

The tracking is insidious and I thought Panoramio and geo-located images was a way to communicate with other photographers without the tracking of my actions. I can see a future where Views images, which include people, will have individual's names added to captions without their consent.

I have a smart phone and the greatest problem is framing an image since the screen is so dark in daylight! If anyone has a solution to this I'm sure open to the solution! LOL

[Tomas K☼h☼ut]

Roger, small corrections:

After deleting my Panoramio account, which required I delete my Google+ account...

I am not sure I fully understand...  You can delete Panoramio account without deleting Google Account (and G+ and other Google based services).

On the other hand - if you delete your Google Account, your content in all linked services goes away too (Panoramio, G+, YouTube, other sites using Google Account login).

 While going through the sign-up process I was assigned a new gmail email address, which I hadn't asked for.

 

Again - it is not true. When creating Google Account, you are offered (in fact: pushed) to create new gmail address. But under that field for user name (which will be used as your.name@gmail) is a link "I want to use my existing email address".

[Roger Heath]

After attempting to delete my Panoramio account there were no obvious changes. Somewhere along this line of these attempts to delete was information that informed me that to delete a Google associated account, one had to delete the Google+ account. When doing that action, all my Panoramio photos were deleted. 

About using existing email address. It wouldn't let me since that email already was being used - from my old account. The old email was accepted as the "backup". So I will not be receiving any information via the Google gmail address since I will not be setting it up for my computer to check. I couldn't get through that step without Google accepting my new user name for my new gmail account. I have had one email address for almost 20 years, so trust me I didn't want any other email account. 

On Sunday, September 21, 2014 12:20:25 PM UTC-7, Tomas K☼h☼ut wrote:

Roger, small corrections:

After deleting my Panoramio account, which required I delete my Google+ account...

I am not sure I fully understand...  You can delete Panoramio account without deleting Google Account (and G+ and other Google based services).

On the other hand - if you delete your Google Account, your content in all linked services goes away too (Panoramio, G+, YouTube, other sites using Google Account login).

 While going through the sign-up process I was assigned a new gmail email address, which I hadn't asked for.

 

[Tomas K☼h☼ut]

It seems to me Roger, you have started with deleting Google Account here https://www.google.com/settings/datatools

instead of deleting Panoramio account here: http://www.panoramio.com/settings (section: Delete your Account).

You did a big mistake, but perhaps you still can ask for account recovery: https://support.google.com/accounts/answer/32046?hl=en

BTW, by restoring Google Account you are going to get back your Panoramio Account too.

The fact you cannot re-use email address of deleted account is absolutely correct. 

Imagine this situation: someone (not you) wants to create new gmail account. By coincidence, he chooses your former email address. If it were allowed, this way he would get new (private) emails from your friends and partners (from those who forgot to update your email or simply don't know about the change). This way he would get also access to many your online services, where login name is your email address! He does not know your password, but with access to your former email address he can ask for password reset (password reset is often verified and confirmed by email at your address and .our "someone" has access for it). Do you have internet banking? Do you see the danger here?

And now back to topic, which is:

Response to Google VP Brian McClendon

Dne neděle, 21. září 2014 21:47:51 UTC+2 Roger Heath napsal(a):

[laurence_cox]

I too only found out by accident. One of the other users in a group I am in, posted that he was leaving Panoramio because of what G$ had done and because of my settings it came through as an email to me (rather than in the weekly digest). So I came here and discovered the worst. I will not be moving over to Views, because for me the groups, despite their shortcomings, are one of the best features of Panoramio. I also follow a number of other photographers and knowing when they have uploaded new pictures gives me an incentive to check out their galleries (most of them are not on G+).

Now, I am not a Luddite and I don't have anything against taking pictures on smartphones (I have one myself and occasionally take pictures with it, because it isn't convenient to take either my DSLR or my bridge camera everywhere with me). Those pictures don't end up on Panoramio, although there are some in my G+ photo album. If G+ had been around when I first joined Panoramio in 2010, some of the early photos I posted here would have gone to G+.

Now I am quite happy for G$ to make free use of my uploaded photographs to add value to their products like Google Image Search, G+, GE and GM, but part of the deal should not be to rip off the users by taking away the features that they joined Panoramio for.

I don't think that just complaining here will do any good, but all the Panoramio users between them must have hundreds of millions of contacts on the various social networks that they belong to. We need to convince G$ that this is a public relations disaster for the company, by posting the facts and telling everyone what it means for Panoramio users. If anyone knows someone in the IT Press who wants to run with the story, that is another good angle. The intention is to push it up G$ search rankings so that they realise that they have become the story.

[Roger Heath]

Thanks Tomas - The Panoramio delete process didn't work.  The attempt to access deleted Google+ account dead ends when one has to fill in one of these buttons:

Please select your issue:

• I forgot my password
• I think someone else is using my account
• I forgot my username
• I know my username and password, but I can't sign in
• I can't reset my password via SMS
• I use a Google Apps account
• I'm having trouble with 2-step verification

None of which seem to be the relevant button for reactivating one's account. None of the next buttons get one to anything resembling a deleted account. So if my old account used my email address it seems that I can;t access anything using MY email address.

Again, thanks for your efforts.

[Tomas K☼h☼ut]

Roger, I'll send you PM about it (account issue is off topic in this thread).

On Monday, September 22, 2014 2:46:21 AM UTC+2, Roger Heath wrote:

Thanks Tomas - The Panoramio delete process didn't work.  The attempt to access deleted Google+ account dead ends when one has to fill in one of these buttons ...

[jknaus]

I agree 100% with Tom! Not going to "Views" either since I have looked some of those low-valued photos there. We are photographers - not tools for Ipads and smartphones...

 

Joni

[Peter NO VIEWS]

You should enable you PM.

[Christa1004]

Dear Mr. McClendon,

you wrote that you've been following some of the discussions on this forum regarding the future migration of Panoramio to Views. So you might be aware that the panoramio community does not share your enthusiasm concerning this decision. Changing to improve is ok, but stopping something that works well, to replace it with something completely new - that's NOT WHAT WE WANT!

So why Google Views' growth means death for longtime photo-sharing service? In the article by Stephen Shankland http://www.cnet.com/news/dont-panic-those-iphone-6-carrier-trade-in-deals-are-still-available/ we read that the "... little-known Panoramio service will eventually disappear..." Little-known?? Is that a joke? In the same article is written that "...Panoramio has more than 80 million images..." Is this what you call little-known?

It seems that the messages are going to be lost in the migration? Be aware that we, the users are enjoying just this, we love to show and share our photos, to mark favorites, to write comments, to make contacts, and even if it's said that groups were not popular, I only can confirm the contrary (> see all the existing groups with numerous members and photos!)

WE DON'T WANT TO LOSE THAT.

I also was attracted by the sentence: "Simultaneously, we also want to help our global Google Maps users explore the world and make decisions about where to go, whether it’s majestic landscapes they dream of visiting or a restaurant in their neighborhood." In due times there was a condition - don't put photos of restaurants, shops and other facilities, which can be perceived as advertising! Now, do you want to give a more essential role for commercial components??

The new VIEW programm seems certainly attractive, but does not give the opportunity to share and to communicate with others in the same way. 360-degree experiences are certainly fascinating, but we don't need them in our gallery, there are other programms which already offers this possibility. We want to converse, exchange, interconnect with the other users around the world.

One of the questions asked in the above article is "...So why would you want to contribute your free labor to help Google, a company that socked away $5.6 billion in cash from its operations in the second quarter? In short, vanity..." Yes, probably a little portion of vanity as well, as each artist somewhere wants to be recognized and praised. But we are also proud of our work, sometimes modest, sometimes stunning, and especially we enjoy it and have much fun to exchange with others.

So please, Mr McClendon, don't take that away from us. Let it run with VIEWS and give the choice: you'll see, we all will stay with PANORAMIO!!

An avid exclusively panoramio user,
Christa1004

[Sleipnir's Master]

Sorry, but smartphone photos of Billy's Bar and Grill may be properly mapped, but they are not going to show Billy's Bar & Grill and they are not going to help me find it either. But they will show that drunk chick's tattoo.

ha ha ha ha love it
 

Viewcounts are fun, and I have tracked mine for some time, but I have posted elsewhere that nobody is ever going to engrave on my headstone that I had X million views on Panoramio. It's not going to happen with Views either. Viewcounts are not as important as anyone thinks.

It is if you are monetizing your work, this is where google are going. So we get people competing for the lime light which will just suck cause you know it will be the people with 3 grand cameras. I yes it's not the equipment but the user, problem is if you get the User plus a good bank balance they will steel the lime light of everyone else or atleast try. People will get pi55ed off at some point and leave into flikrs waiting arms.

[Ivonna Nowicka]

Tom, congratulations you managed to delete your FB account. Not easy job to find the proper way to do it. They have hidden this possibility well, bombing one all the time with invitations to find new friends and disclose info about ourselves as to were we went to school or what we did when in our lives

Panoramio-faithfull as long as possible : )

in

Greetings,

[Kevin Childress]

Is this really all about growing G+???

Could it be that I've simply been overlooking the obvious? Could it be that I've been naive in rationalizing Google's move to "improve my photo-sharing experience"? Could it be that Google is putting all of their eggs in one basket with G+? I finally took time yesterday to dig into Views - to try to understand what's Views offers and how it differs from my beloved Panoramio. After 45 minutes I finally exclaimed, "...this basically looks like Google Plus with a map". I felt deflated. 

 

[RoarX]

"After 45 minutes I finally exclaimed, "...this basically looks like Google Plus with a map". I felt deflated."

Yes, your conclusion seems to be correct. You have the right to be deflated. :/

I've already realized this:

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/panoramio-questions-support/yILlEVw75FU/N-qYuAN2dvMJ

[Draken]

And because photos are on Google+ (not on Views) you cannot look for and find photographers and photos, mark them as favourite(s), make and receive comments. If you want to do all that you must go to Google+. Conclusion: interaction is on Google+ and by "capturing" the Panoramio users they want to increase the usage of the first.