Open letter to Evan Rapoport

[d.stahl]

Mr. Rapoport:

I understand that Panoramio will be superseded by Views. 

I began posting pictures on Panoramio in 2009 because I felt excited about the concept of documenting the Earth. I liked looking at other places, and I wanted to contribute to the effort. I haven't posted a lot, but I tried to find places that were under-exposed or had no imagery at all.

Often I put up images that were not accepted. I later pulled most of those -- because my intent was, as I stated, to contribute images which would be used to document the Earth via online maps.

Now you write, "We need to be able to share more than just photos of landscapes and seascapes. Panoramio has done an amazing job, but we need to broaden that."

So why did Panoramio reject so many other images? What photos are you looking for now, Mr. Rapoport -- closeups? Product placement shots? Graffiti? Nudes? 360-degree images of shopping malls?

Well, I don't much mind moving to a new platform. That's necessary, sometimes. What I do mind is the feeling that I've been snookered. That the whole "document the Earth" concept was a load of hooey coughed up by some PR guy at Google.

OK, I can laugh at my mistakes. :) Probably, over the next few days, I'll remove my Panoramio photos and delete my account. If I decide to do that, then I won't be re-posting them on View.

I don't know how many other Panoramio users are as disillusioned as I am. Is there anything you care to say about that?

Best regards --

D. Stahl

[Diane will not go to Views]

D. Stahl - I, also, am amazed by this: 

 "We need to be able to share more than just photos of landscapes and seascapes. Panoramio has done an amazing job, but we need to broaden that."

What are you talking about?  Have you actually looked at the photos on Panoramio and on GE?  There is a massive variety of shots on Pano.  The only thing preventing shots other than "landscapes and seascapes" from being selected was Panoramio policy, which the Mods had to follow.  This is also an odd statement because, Mods, being human beings with their own brains, chose plenty of photos that were not landscapes and seascapes, or those that one would think would (should) not be selected.  Now that Views will not, apparently, have moderation in the workable sense, I have no doubt that the earth will be swamped by "closeups? Product placement shots? Graffiti? Nudes? 360-degree images of shopping malls?"  And, I can't wait to see the carpet of family portraits and frat-party mayhem.  This is what happened when just-Google-purchased Youtube started uploading their product willy-nilly so they would have a Google Earth presence ASAP.  It was a horrible disaster, so bad that they withdrew after a few months of condemnation by GE users.  (I, myself, found and reported porn, a disgusting drunken brawl and a violent diatribe by a middle eastern extremist.)

I'm pretty exhausted by Google's incessant changes, 180s and "we're bored, lets try another project that replicates or overlaps or destroys what we already have!"  Then, they imply that we users are too stodgy and stupid to accept change.  Amusing!

[David Humphreys ( formerly Galatas )]

Since you'd be unlikely to send yourself a message the icon is only visible to others viewing your page.

On Thursday, September 18, 2014 10:42:25 PM UTC+1, Diane will not go to Views wrote:

P.S. I have just noticed that the Message envelope has disappeared from my home page.  I didn't disable personal messaging.  Who did?

[Diane - No Views]

Thanks, David, I just got a PM from someone else about it.  I'm getting too paranoid -  Lol!

[~Marlene~]

I share your feelings, D. Stahl & I'm insulted & outraged by the immature & selfish behavior of Google. I have spent a lot of time since 2009 documenting the city of Chicago and all the wonderful places therein. I have 865 Chicago photos, most with researched descriptions. It will be hard for you to fill that void when I delete them! That took a lot of my time and I enjoyed it, but I also felt I was contributing something that other people would benefit from. These photos are not just landscapes & seascapes! And my rejected shots were, for the most part, mistakes on the part of the reviewer! 

I think the hardest part for me, with the demise of Panoramio, will be the loss of the community we have formed & the friendships that have been forged with people all over the world. That was the most special part of this site as I learned so much from so many people, photos just being the magnet that brought us all together. That is something that can't be duplicated as it has built up over many years. This is like a having a death in the family, creating a void that can never be filled. And I blame Google for all of that! 

It all could have been much easier to swallow if Google had just leveled with us from the beginning. Maybe we could have been a help to you as you tried to create something better, but you have either been secretive or dishonest in all your dealings with the users and for that I will never forgive or trust you again. I will not transfer my photos to Views & I will not use Google+  or whatever else I can avoid with your name on it. You have shown yourself to be an untrustworthy organization who uses and abuses people whenever possible.

And that's what I have to say about that, D. Stahl! Also, thank you for speaking out. :-)

Marlene 

[Paunoramio]

Big disappointment.

It is obvious they just want to go mainstream. Panoramio was a kind of niche site for landscape photographs and now they are mixing it up with all kind of pictures.

What is the point of using a map to see selfies, parties, a dish of pasta, etc.?

I am afraid they are just killing it, I wish somebody came up with a panoramio 2.0 website, I woulnd't even mind to pay for an account.

[skida]

 It is really sad news but not totally unexpected.I remember when Google first bought out Panoramio and we all feared the worst then. First they imposed a new (old fashioned) forum on us, which caused me to walk away from that. Then they imposed a Gmail account on us, which I couldn't walk away from because I still wanted to use Panoramio. I have really enjoyed Pano for the 7 years I have been involved, but I am beginning to think that this is one bullying too far by Google and I am considering deleting everything. Flikr did a big change last year that lost them many, many users whilst gaining many more camera-phone users. I still persist there for the time being because it still has its uses for me.

7 years, 1300 photos and 1.7m views. More important is the history in the comments, which I occasionally revisit for a chuckle or two.

Google bought Panoramio because it was a great idea and looked good in their portfolio, but it has suffered through lack of passion that the founders had (before selling out for their pound of flesh).

I will make my final decision soon. Whatever happens y'all take care now!

[Hans Sterkendries]

Since Evan Rapoport no longer seems to be reading this forum I left this message in the Views forum:

"Sorry to say but the lack of professional courtesy on behalf of the Geo team is appallling. The members of Panoramio had to find out in the media that their community is to merge with Views. After months of spinning that you were working on all the bugs that took over Panoramio after the latest "upgrade", we have to settle for a website that comes nowhere near what a self-respecting photographer wants. And we are left without a tool to decently migrate. There is a reason why I'm not on Facebook so don't force-feed Google+ to me. For a company that claims a higher moral, the way this decision was taken (e.g. without any consultation) is completely unethical and an insult to the thousands of people who have invested time and energy in Panoramio. I hope this blows up in Google's face. Member of Panoramio since January 2006 with 70,000+ pictures online and I'm seriously thinking of doing a Take-Out."

[Lady GooGoo La La]

Nicely put Hans,

While I think about this more, I'm coming to the conclusion this was all the plan and not chaos as its appears.  Google have always been envious of Facebook's rise and bought Panoramio with the idea of buying a block of users heavily committed to a product that would be difficult to abandon.

Next step was to fake improvements to Panoramio and introduce a myriad of problems, then come to the rescue with a social media site that could combine geo-tagging and advertising in a single mix.

I think the more they force and coerce users to use it, the more it will slip through their fingers!  One site cant and wont, meet everyone's needs!

Lady GooGoo LaLa

[©polytropos_Views-sucks!]

My words, D.Stahl!!   

Principally there is nothing to add. I'm just another disappointed and until now loyal user of Panoramio.  

[Hans Sterkendries]

I found a very interesting read on the internet: the Google philosophy.

https://www.google.com/about/company/philosophy/

Some of the ten commandments have a bitter-sweer irony to them. A must-read in these dark times. ;-)

Focus on the user and all else will follow.

Democracy on the web works.

It’s best to do one thing really, really well.

You can make money without doing evil.

[skida]

"Making Money Without Doing Evil" - Maybe the main reason that I haven't began deleting my content is because it would destroy all the comments made by my late friend, Trikermike. Those comments are part of his legacy to his friends across the Panoramio World, and forcing me to accept a move to Views in order to save them, is, in my mind, evil manipulation for power and profit.

[Draken]

Keith

The comments in photos are not kept in Views (at least not now that the photos are migrated from G+ to Views). The Team is planning to eventually migrate the photos straight from Panoramio to Views. However, I don't think the comments will remain either since there is no community in Views at all!!

[Hans Sterkendries]

Draken, I'm just asking but are they kept in G+?

Because this is baaaaaaaaaaaaaad! For so many reasons... :-(

[Peter NO VIEWS]

Great find Hans. They shoot themselves in the foot.

[Evan Rapoport]

Hello everyone,

My apologies for the delayed response, though please note that it's only been about a day since the original post here and I've been extremely busy at a conference and working with my team to address concerns and requests we're hearing in the community. Also note I'll be traveling a lot for the next week or so, and so please don't take my delayed responses as an indication of anything other than my lack of Internet access.

I'm a photographer. I've always loved photography since I was a little kid on vacation, watching my mom lug around a big heavy SLR. I love landscapes the most. Whether I use my DSLR or my phone, I spend a lot of time and effort to create a good photo. Often people think my phone photos come from a DSLR. As others point out, it's not the camera... it's the person holding it. Though I did sell my work in galleries in Hawaii, I wouldn't call myself a pro. I just love the art form.

So, I love Panoramio and all the photos I see here. I also love other photography communities on the web because I enjoy seeing beautiful photos first and foremost. But Panoramio is special because it has a mission to document our planet and to do so as a way to help other people explore the world through Google Maps and Google Earth. The mission is the same in Views, but even larger in the scope for places and subject matter. This might mean some photos of mundane places like small businesses, but that's often what people need to make decisions about where to go for dinner with our family, for a weekend walk, etc. If the photo quality for these places isn't up to your level of satisfaction (and I'd agree with you typically), then this is our opportunity as photographers to raise the bar. I love taking photos of mundane things, like making my dinner at a restaurant look like a work of art. It's often a fun challenge and pushes my creativity as a photographer (and tests my family's patience as they wait for me before eating). If that's not your thing, then no worries at all.

But I'm not here to convince you to migrate to Views; I just want you to understand what we're doing so you can make an educated decision about what to do next. We'll give you easy tools to either migrate to Views or to takeout all of your photos and post them elsewhere. They're your photos and it's your choice. We will also put notices of these updates in the Panoramio site itself and send emails to members. No ETA on that yet, but we're working hard on it.

I encourage you to read the post from our Google Maps Vice President, Brian McClendon, that outlined more of what we're planning to do.

Thank you,

Evan

[Draken]

Hi Evan

I understand the concept of adding people who take snapshots (with smartphones) but why don’t you offer/serve them some "benefits"? The same benefits we have enjoyed on Panoramio.

Perhaps the snapshooters have someting to learn from some experienced photographers and years and years of experience of what makes a good photo website and community.

There are several features the Panoramio users would like to have in Views (and I mean Views, not Google+):

• A reasonable, understandable photo URL (not a long string of numbers and letters) or manageable photo ID
  
• 
  
• A reasonable, undersatandable user URL or a mangeable user ID
  
• 
  
• Marking favourite photographers and favourite photos
  
• 
  
•  Easy way to find favourite photos and photographers
  
• 
  
• Tag search
  
• Album search
  
• User search (by name or URL)
  
• 
  
• Making and receiving comments
  
• 
  
• An easy way of keeping track of the flow of comments
  
• 
  
• Creating albums
  
• 
  
• Rearranging the order of the photos
  
• 
  
• A system of private messages 
  
• 
  
• The possibility of sending relocation suggestions.
  
• A separate forum (not one subsumed in the Google Maps forum)
• Language forums (I read and understand five languages, but not everybody understands English)

Some questions:

How is Views  planning to monitor the quality of photos, not the technical quality, but the quality of the content? How will Views prevent loads of family photos from being included on GM? How are you going to prevent the abuses (porno, NSFW, advertising, family albums, hate speech, etc.)? Is there already a team of reviewers? 

In what way will Views prevent companies from taking over? Meaning how will Views prevent GM from being flooded with bulk uploaded advertisements?

How Views is going to prevent photo misplacement?

How can I show a particular photo to a friend other than telling him he should go to a photo with an impossible ID like https://www.google.com/maps/views/view/108141166373316898955/gphoto/5474518457284499970 ?  

Will Views also show photos on Google Earth, or will the Panoramio GE layer just disappear when PA is migrated to Views?

I am pretty sure there are more «demands» and more questions.

Thanks for the input.

[Roger Heath]

I have come back to see whether my Panoramio images will reappear. I doubt it. So this is only a posting account.

Evan writes - "I love taking photos of mundane things, like making my dinner at a restaurant look like a work of art.'

I agree that creative photography was a plus on Panoramio, even though the reviewers had rules against indoor or commercial type images. From what you have written, is it to be assumed those images will now be allowed. BTW - much unaccepted creative photography was the basis for many groups, these will no longer exist so it is really a 100% mixed message!

How about a list of changes telling us what are now acceptable images, compared to those unaccepted for GM via Panoramio?

If any Moderator can help me retrieve my old account I would be grateful - 7311399. It was quite convoluted to discover a path enabling me to post here again. I even got an automatic gmail email account which I will never use! LOL NSA will wonder why!

On Friday, September 19, 2014 3:01:25 PM UTC-7, Draken wrote:

Hi Evan

I understand the concept of adding people who take snapshots (with smartphones) but why don’t you offer/serve them some "benefits"? The same benefits we have enjoyed on Panoramio.

Perhaps the snapshooters have someting to learn from some experienced photographers and years and years of experience of what makes a good photo website and community.

There are several features the Panoramio users would like to have in Views (and I mean Views, not Google+):

• A reasonable, understandable photo URL (not a long string of numbers and letters) or manageable photo ID
  
• 
  
• A reasonable, undersatandable user URL or a mangeable user ID
  
• 
  
• Marking favourite photographers and favourite photos
  
• 
  
•  Easy way to find favourite photos and photographers
  
• 
  
• Tag search
  
• Album search
  
• User search (by name or URL)
  
• 
  
• Making and receiving comments
  
• 
  
• An easy way of keeping track of the flow of comments
  
• 
  
• Creating albums
  
• 
  
• Rearranging the order of the photos
  
• 
  
• A system of private messages 
  
• 
  
• The possibility of sending relocation suggestions.
  

[© Tom Cooper not going to Views]

I am not sure about your question, but this might answer it.  My acount has been linked to a Google+ account for some time, and most of my Panoramio photos have been copied there...without Panoramio comments.  I believe the plan with the Views migration is to make another copy, and I suspect that will also not have the comments.  The reason Brian gave for that is related to the fact that not everyone will migrate.  That causes technical and/or legal problems, as non-migrated users cannot delete their comments the way they can on Panoramio.

Tom

[Sleipnir's Master]

Yup i use wiki for documenting, now there is layer on maps which i miss but rather than work a non profit site google want there own what ever it was called. Not a patch on wiki.

On Friday, September 19, 2014 2:06:51 AM UTC+1, ~Marlene~ wrote:

I share your feelings, D. Stahl & I'm insulted & outraged by the immature & selfish behavior of Google. I have spent a lot of time since 2009 documenting the city of Chicago and all the wonderful places therein. I have 865 Chicago photos, most with researched descriptions. It will be hard for you to fill that void when I delete them! That took a lot of my time and I enjoyed it, but I also felt I was contributing something that other people would benefit from. These photos are not just landscapes & seascapes! And my rejected shots were, for the most part, mistakes on the part of the reviewer! 

I think the hardest part for me, with the demise of Panoramio, will be the loss of the community we have formed & the friendships that have been forged with people all over the world. That was the most special part of this site as I learned so much from so many people, photos just being the magnet that brought us all together. That is something that can't be duplicated as it has built up over many years. This is like a having a death in the family, creating a void that can never be filled. And I blame Google for all of that! 

It all could have been much easier to swallow if Google had just leveled with us from the beginning. Maybe we could have been a help to you as you tried to create something better, but you have either been secretive or dishonest in all your dealings with the users and for that I will never forgive or trust you again. I will not transfer my photos to Views & I will not use Google+  or whatever else I can avoid with your name on it. You have shown yourself to be an untrustworthy organization who uses and abuses people whenever possible.

And that's what I have to say about that, D. Stahl! Also, thank you for speaking out. :-)

Marlene 

On Thursday, September 18, 2014 11:40:01 AM UTC-5, d.stahl wrote:

[Peter NO VIEWS]

For many, many months the PA members posted lots of ideas for improvement, vi discussed estical problems. Do vi really have to do that again. If Google has done its work, then they have a hell of a list to make a perfect - not only posting- photo community.

kl. 00:01:25 UTC+2 lørdag 20. september 2014 skrev Draken følgende:

Hi Evan

I understand the concept of adding people who take snapshots (with smartphones) but why don’t you offer/serve them some "benefits"? The same benefits we have enjoyed on Panoramio.

Perhaps the snapshooters have someting to learn from some experienced photographers and years and years of experience of what makes a good photo website and community.

There are several features the Panoramio users would like to have in Views (and I mean Views, not Google+):

• A reasonable, understandable photo URL (not a long string of numbers and letters) or manageable photo ID
  
• 
  
• A reasonable, undersatandable user URL or a mangeable user ID
  
• 
  
• Marking favourite photographers and favourite photos
  
• 
  
•  Easy way to find favourite photos and photographers
  
• 
  
• Tag search
  
• Album search
  
• User search (by name or URL)
  
• 
  
• Making and receiving comments
  
• 
  
• An easy way of keeping track of the flow of comments
  
• 
  
• Creating albums
  
• 
  
• Rearranging the order of the photos
  
• 
  
• A system of private messages 
  
• 
  
• The possibility of sending relocation suggestions.
  

• A separate forum (not one subsumed in the Google Maps forum)
• Language forums (I read and understand five languages, but not everybody understands English)

[d.stahl]

Thanks for responding, Mr. Rapoport.

I think the clearest statement of intent in your response was this:

"This [change in image selection criteria] might mean some photos of mundane places like small businesses, but that's often what people need to make decisions about where to go for dinner with our family, for a weekend walk, etc."

That appears a reasonable goal. It also occurs to me that it ties in well with Google's primary revenue source: advertising. Still no botanical closeups allowed, perhaps, but photos of Fred's Food Place and the Walmart in Milledgeville welcome?

That may be unfair, but I tend to think that commercialization is the general direction Views will go eventually. And I didn't sign up to serve as a marketing shill.

For me, stunning photographic images are secondary. Revealing what specific places on the Earth look like, in detail, seems more interesting. I know that many Panoramio users post images from journeys to amazing, unique places -- Diafarabe, Kergueln Islands, Mount Kinabalu. And many are excellent photographers -- I'm not.

I see there's already a thread on alternatives to Panoramio and Views, so I won't go far down that road. But it appears WikiMapia may be a better place to post. "WikiMapia is an open-content collaborative mapping project, aimed at marking all geographical objects in the world and providing a useful description of them. [Their mission is to] create and maintain a free, complete, multilingual and up-to-date map of the whole world." Sounds good!

Probably many Panoramio users are still undecided about whether to migrate to Views or not. I'm of two minds myself (partly because I realize my "marketing shill" comment might come from unreasonbable grouchiness than from objective consideration). I'll think about it.

Thanks again for responding --

D. Stahl

[JohnnySixtyLove]

Am Samstag, 20. September 2014 00:01:25 UTC+2 schrieb Draken:

There are several features the Panoramio users would like to have in Views (and I mean Views, not Google+):

• A reasonable, understandable photo URL (not a long string of numbers and letters) or manageable photo ID

• 
  

• A reasonable, undersatandable user URL or a mangeable user ID

• 
  

• Marking favourite photographers and favourite photos

• 
  

•  Easy way to find favourite photos and photographers

• 
  

• Tag search

• Album search

• User search (by name or URL)

• 
  

• Making and receiving comments

• 
  

• An easy way of keeping track of the flow of comments

• 
  

• Creating albums

• 
  

• Rearranging the order of the photos

• 
  

• A system of private messages 

• 
  

• The possibility of sending relocation suggestions.

• A separate forum (not one subsumed in the Google Maps forum)

• Language forums (I read and understand five languages, but not everybody understands English)

Some questions:
How is Views  planning to monitor the quality of photos, not the technical quality, but the quality of the content? How will Views prevent loads of family photos from being included on GM? How are you going to prevent the abuses (porno, NSFW, advertising, family albums, hate speech, etc.)? Is there already a team of reviewers? 
In what way will Views prevent companies from taking over? Meaning how will Views prevent GM from being flooded with bulk uploaded advertisements?
How Views is going to prevent photo misplacement?
How can I show a particular photo to a friend other than telling him he should go to a photo with an impossible ID like https://www.google.com/maps/views/view/108141166373316898955/gphoto/5474518457284499970 ?  
Will Views also show photos on Google Earth, or will the Panoramio GE layer just disappear when PA is migrated to Views?

Hello,

I'm a German user of Panoramio and I am very sad about this news. 

I read all posts in this thread and also the massage of Brian McClendon.

I think that they have never understood at Google, what Panoramio is and never wanted to understand it.

They need us to get photos for their applications for some times.  As long as users were also accepted without Google+ account.

This time is now over.

I'm not at Google+ because I didn't want it.

My comments are directed personally to the relevant photographer and not to the whole world.

Many of the other users I know think the same.

I would therefore like to connect the requirements established by Draken.
Then maybe I can ignore the compulsion to Google+.

I'm sure that this is also a prerequisite for many others to move to Views.

[d.stahl]

OK, tantrum over. After re-reading the Views photo guidelines, and the post introducing the rationale for Views, I've changed my ideas. The basic philosophy of Views doesn't appear to have changed from that of Panoramio. Photos will still show the world as it is. Logos, advertisements, and cute-puppy shots are still inappropriate. The real reason Panoramio is being rebuilt, it appears, is just that the structure and code have reached end-of-life.

Ironically, I am having to implement a similar shift at my workplace. Industrial automation interfaces built piecemeal in the 1990s are being replaced. We need a unified, visually ergonomic GUI which can deal with rapidly increasing complexity without driving users crazy. A few people dislike the changes I'm introducing, but I think they understand why I have to do it. 

So, a bit of advice for Google's frontmen on this: Don't blather about "I'm a photographer too" and "the mundane can be interesting". Just make your case straight: 

1. If the database-and-code structure originally built by Abela and Aguilar in 2005 has -- after 9 years -- become clunky, limiting, and obsolete, that's what you should say. 

2. If it's necessary to completely rebuild the website/app from scratch in order to use new technologies (mobile apps, innovative image formats), say that. 

3. If high-quality geolocated images of the Earth are still the main focus of the site, then for God's sake say that!

[Evan Rapoport]

d.stahl,

Thank you for the good feedback here! It's always good to get some advice on improving communication skills, so I'll take this to heart and be more direct whenever possible. Starting here...

Views has the same philosophy as Panoramio in celebrating "photos of the world". We're all the same team. And our policies are still very similar as you see, so we'll continue to reject unhelpful and spammy images. When images are rejected, they won't appear in the Explore page in Views or in Google Maps (only on that user's profile).

But, as far as moderation, here's what you might dislike in Views for the next few months... 

Moderation in Views right now is algorithmic / automatic and therefore bound to get things wrong at a rate that Panoramio users won't like. We're working to create manual approval processes and appeals (like we have for photo spheres and in Panoramio), but with the much larger scale we're getting now, we have to be more selective about which photos get manually approved / rejected. I know there's nothing more frustrating than having one of your beautiful images be rejected. It angers me big time when this happens to me. So, as we've said, Views is not yet ready for the Panoramio community and this is one of those missing features.

As an FYI I'll be on a family vacation to Montana for the next week and won't be online. So, please don't think I'm ignoring you. I'm planning to enjoy the wilderness and carry a few cameras around everywhere I go. My team will be continuing to check the forums and help as needed. In the meantime, it's off to the mountains for me!

Aloha,
Evan

[Hans Sterkendries]

Evan, moderation is only the tip of the iceberg of what we will not like.

The only guidelines I found are found here: https://support.google.com/maps/answer/3189550?hl=en

Advertising and logos are prohibited and so is porn but apart from that: ANYTHING goes! Ok, you can report a problem and one of them is "this picture doesn't show the place as it is". 

But what is the exact criteria? Both you and your VP all of a sudden discovered food photography as a possible enrichment for GM (by the way: I personally have 3,128 pictures with the tag food on Panoramio, and one of the most popular groups was created by Gerard Sanz and is dedicated to... food). Is food photography illustrating a place? Are selfies in front of the Sydney Opera House? Is the inside of a hotel room? I'm just asking because the very same team to chose not to select these things, now thinks they would make GM a much richer place...

Reporting a problem will elimate the worst crap but with automated uploads from G+ you have a constant flow of new crap arriving and the few people who will care about your new pet child will be left with the constant burden of reporting the unsuitable pictures. By the way, having signed in with a Google Account I STILL have to type my e-mail address and press the captcha every f*ck*ng time.

That being said: 

- there is no exif information in Views. I'm sorry but that's the least you can expect from a photography website.

- of course this is hardly a photography website. That can be determined by the fact that cellphone photography is treated in the same way as traditional photography, which is nothing less but an insult to anyone who has carefully selected, mapped, named and edited his/her pictures.

- there are no tags, na maps, no way of organising anything except a map.

- the migration is bound to be a disaster. What will happen with titles? I've seen examples of a whole galleries of pictures that are now called "Olympus Digital Camera". What wil happen to the order in which pictures have carefully been uploaded?

And then there is the issue of the Google Drive capacity that we were discussing on G+...

Op zondag 21 september 2014 20:59:37 UTC+2 schreef Evan Rapoport:

[Roger Heath]

Evan - being sarcastic here - don't waste time photographing Glacier National Park, concentrate on those wonderful Buffalo Burgers and fries at Ted's in Bozeman.

[mbe21]

I am a bit bemused by Google's approach here, If VIEWS is (or will be) such a good app why the need to integrate Pano into it.  Let VIEWS stand on it's own two feet and leave Pano do what it has been doing quite successfully for the last 10 years.  Google could make this new VIEWS as the default photos on GE and GM and change Pano to an optional add-in 

Together the Pano community has built up a stunning array of photos from every corner of the world. Community is huge in Pano, the comments I have received over the years have helped improve my photography no end and along the way I have made some great friends,  I don't see that this can happen in VIEWS.

If the Pano operating system is outdated, which has been touted as a reason for the migration, by all means update it and I'm sure if you ask Pano members will be very happy to contribute - Draken's post above would be an excellent starting point.

At the end of the day I reckon this is all about money which is usually the way with large corporations and at the end of the day Pano isn't financially viable in Google's eyes so Lets change it into something else and see if we can make more money out of it.

Sad times for those who have contributed so much time, effort and friendship over the years.

Mick

[hvbemmel]

The last year the team concentrated on Views. Panoramio got a new unfinished design the viewcounts went down the drain, GM doesn´t hardly show any PA photos

This will of course not change when PA goes to views. That specific pizzeria will be on GM more prominently. Why? well when you are in Rome and you want to go to the Trevi fountain, you will find a photo of a pizzeria there, because people want pizza´s not fountains. Above that, the Pizza two blocks away will put a photo of his pizzeria on the fountain, because of the wonderfull PR GM offers.

Strange enough there are many apps, specialised in this kind of work. They call them touriíst guides and often are for free. You download a touristguide app for Rome and you will be able to find everything you want on the map from attraction up to the Pizzeria. look at i.e. tripadvisor, they live on accurate data, that´s their job and they act as professionals. They need to keep their data OK, they need to have a working program, unlike Googles unfinished business because their app pays the bills, no room for hobbyists. 

So GM thinks to invent a worldwide product showing things that others are doing for years already and with much more, verified accuracy. When I look for the Trevi fountain I want to end up at the Trevi fountain and not at a pizzeria and vice versa. GM never will ganrantee me that as they, logically, don´t have the means to verify accuracy as specialised sites do. 

Panoramio outside views will be neglected, as it has been for the last year. Panoramio within views will, for several reasons, be invisble. Quality photographers are transferring their photos to other servces already. Google doesn´t give a damn. Those who leave is a minority in Google eyes.

Evan loves stats, well there is Panorank (www.panorank.com) 

Panoramio has 4.155.876 users with 84994263 photos uploaded

4044056 of them have less then 100 photos uploaded

112527 have >100 photos uploaded

10293 have >1000 photos uploaded

Among those 10293 there are many of us, dedicated users. many of them will leave with all their millions of photos. let´s say the average is 2000 photos, that means  over 20 million quality photos gone. 

Google thinks this is a minority. In members yes, in photos? that reamins to be seen. lies, damn lies and statistics.

[Diane - No Views]

Oh, I did not now that Trikermike passed away, skida.  I'm so sorry.  He was such a nice man - and had a great sense of humor.  **:** (

[Lady GooGoo La La]

Well said Herman I agree 100%, but one small problem

This migration is about ego's and goal fulfillment, not about chance on success of Panacea (aka Views/Google+). Panacea

If statistics of Panacea, remain in decline for extended period then they will rebuild and start a new social networking web site.

They never learn: 

Google: Lively, Orkut, Buzz, Google+
Microsofts ME, Vista, Windows 8......

Blind single-mindedness despite what people demand......they will be forced retake Economics 1001.

Vic Gundotra, head of social at Google, said...

Google+ members who have interacted socially with any of Google's services in the past 30 days total 540 million, up from 390 million in May, he added. Google is also uploading 1.5 billion photos per week, and that number is increasing at "an amazing rate," Gundotra said during an event here

http://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2013/10/29/google-plus/3296017/
Not enough photos? Panoramio photos are insignificant in terms of numbers, so why ruin Panoramio and polarize more people and press against Google?..
arrogance.

One Google password is all about tracking users where-ever they go, not only where they go but where they came from. Google is about advertising not photography or philanthropy.

Panacea is not a cure-all but a mess.

[b.e.r.n.d. | Don't stop it!]

Hi, this is Bernd, member since 2008, 4500 pictures (4 accounts), drinking a lot of tea since many years, means waiting patient for improvements of Panoramia with pain and passion.

Spent nights and days for photo work, position them, desciptions, meeting and talking a lot of people around the world, finding friends of photography. Learn to understand cultures. No borders on panoramio - one unique world  - I loved that idea.

For pizza and restaurant advertisment use Adwords and Google search or build some apps (there are a lot)...
The owners of Pizza should present them thereselves. With bad pictures or comments of restaurant you can drive out guests.
Owners don't will like this. 

Is it right: Without G+ all pictures lost? So I will be lost, too.
No Facebook, no G+ - my way.
Find me at ipernity.com

Waiting some time to delete my pictures.

Thank you hvbemmel for moderating. Often a hard time for you.

We are all disappointed.

Warm greetings - Bernd

[Peter NO VIEWS]

Quite right I find my way perfectly these days... By the way give me a  fountain any day:-)

kl. 07:29:16 UTC+2 mandag 22. september 2014 skrev hvbemmel følgende:

The last year the team concentrated on Views. Panoramio got a new unfinished design the viewcounts went down the drain, GM doesn´t hardly show any PA photos

This will of course not change when PA goes to views. That specific pizzeria will be on GM more prominently. Why? well when you are in Rome and you want to go to the Trevi fountain, you will find a photo of a pizzeria there, because people want pizza´s not fountains. Above that, the Pizza two blocks away will put a photo of his pizzeria on the fountain, because of the wonderfull PR GM offers.

Strange enough there are many apps, specialised in this kind of work. They call them touriíst guides and often are for free. You download a touristguide app for Rome and you will be able to find everything you want on the map from attraction up to the Pizzeria. look at i.e. tripadvisor, they live on accurate data, that´s their job and they act as professionals. They need to keep their data OK, they need to have a working program, unlike Googles unfinished business because their app pays the bills, no room for hobbyists. 

So GM thinks to invent a worldwide product showing things that others are doing for years already and with much more, verified accuracy. When I look for the Trevi fountain I want to end up at the Trevi fountain and not at a pizzeria and vice versa. GM never will ganrantee me that as they, logically, don´t have the means to verify accuracy as specialised sites do. 

Panoramio outside views will be neglected, as it has been for the last year. Panoramio within views will, for several reasons, be invisble. Quality photographers are transferring their photos to other servces already. Google doesn´t give a damn. Those who leave is a minority in Google eyes.

Evan loves stats, well there is Panorank (www.panorank.com) 

Panoramio has 4.155.876 users with 84994263 photos uploaded

4044056 of them have less then 100 photos uploaded

112527 have >100 photos uploaded

10293 have >1000 photos uploaded

Among those 10293 there are many of us, dedicated users. many of them will leave with all their millions of photos. let´s say the average is 2000 photos, that means  over 20 million quality photos gone. 

Google thinks this is a minority. In members yes, in photos? that reamins to be seen. lies, damn lies and statistics.

On Monday, 22 September 2014 00:54:18 UTC+2, mbe21 wrote:

[Peter NO VIEWS]

B.e.r.n.d. enable you PM and make contact with me or a moderator.

[SinnT@ucher]

I personally really do like the move from Panoramio to Views!
Views seems to be built on the reliable photo platform of G+Photos/Picasa thus brings you all the standard Picasa features (like albums) and finally a nice API for photos, meta-data, comments and so on (something missing completely for PA).
Also the mobile AND desktop experience is much better, modern and more fun (endless scrolling!).
Things would be nearly perfect if we would not loose our favorite photos and photographers and comments on the move.
But this also relies on the will and motivation of every single PA user to migrate from a "technology dead-end" (PA) to a future save and solid platform like G+Photos/Picasa.
It is obvious that PA lacks many features (except favorite photographers...) and that no company builds the same thing/features twice.
The more of us make the move, the more enjoyable Google Views will be, in terms of content, photos and re-connected relationships/friendships.
I made my decision...

[Hans Sterkendries]

Ralph, how did you make albums on Views?

As far as I can tell there is only ONE way to look for pictures on Views and that's on the map. No albums, no tags.

[SinnT@ucher]

Hello Hans,

so, from what I understand the album functionality is not available on Views itself but for G+Photos/Picasa.

You can add geotagged photos from any G+/Picasa album to Views as long as the folder/album itself as this 'Share Location' flag set.

I already did this and moved all my photos from PA to the (already existing) G+Photo folder 'Panoramio photos' from which I selected all to be displayed in Views.

This should also work with more folders/albums than just one.

Things should get more clear when the migration tool is ready and released.

Currently, some can manage folders/albums either by G+ Photos (https://plus.google.com/photos/+RalfMissal/albums?banner=pwa) or by Picasa Webalbum (like https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/myphotos?noredirect=1). It seems, that G+Photos is the new UI built on the Picasa backend.

So, my personal/developer hope is that their will be a dedicated Views API for geotagged photos allowing a navigation/lookup of their owners so that people can jump from current or searched location->photo->photographer->more photos->more locations->and so on...

I just released some mobile Android app for Panoramio (Panio/PanioPRO) and building it on top of PA was no fun (no easy way to get your fav photos, fav. photographers, login and all the photo meta data itself). 

This is now possible with the Picasa Data API (https://developers.google.com/picasa-web/docs/2.0/developers_guide_java).

That's why I personally support this move.

If more people jump on this train and migrate their nice photos (and their profile), then also the social demands of the PA users can be fulfilled (even better than today).

People need to understand that the 'future of IT is mobile' just as the 'future of IT was desktop/PC' some 15 years ago and as the 'future of photography is digital' since some 10 years or so. 

More and more people from around the world are now able to access the internet with cheap mobile devices (they can't and will never effort a PC!) and are eager to enjoy YOUR photos!

This is a big opportunity to share YOUR photos which you made with passion and skills with an already large and fast growing audience.

Most of them are just normal users but some of them are also photography enthusiasts and maybe even future friends.

Regards,

-Ralf

[SinnT@ucher]

Hans, 

just 1 thing to add: If I talk about 'mobile experience' I do not mainly mean mobile phones with small screens below 5 inch but phablets or tablets with screens above 6 inch or more.

Enjoying your own photos and the photos of your peers by using a natively built app on a 10.1 inch tablet while sitting on the couch is just so much better than sitting in front of a notebook or PC and using the mouse/keyboard.

Things get even better if you 'cast' the tablets screen to your large 50 inch TV screen (via Chromecast).

You may just have a look at the screenshots from my (now becoming obsolete) android apps in google play store:

- Panio Free Version: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.panio 

- Panio Pro Version for PA users (now also free and thus shortly available in play store again): https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.panio.pro

Regards,

-Ralf

Am Dienstag, 23. September 2014 10:01:12 UTC+2 schrieb SinnT@ucher:

Hello Hans,

so, from what I understand the album functionality is not available on Views itself but for G+Photos/Picasa.

You can add geotagged photos from any G+/Picasa album to Views as long as the folder/album itself as this 'Share Location' flag set.

I already did this and moved all my photos from PA to the (already existing) G+Photo folder 'Panoramio photos' from which I selected all to be displayed in Views.

This should also work with more folders/albums than just one.

Things should get more clear when the migration tool is ready and released.

Currently, some can manage folders/albums either by G+ Photos (https://plus.google.com/photos/+RalfMissal/albums?banner=pwa) or by Picasa Webalbum (like https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/myphotos?noredirect=1). It seems, that G+Photos is the new UI built on the Picasa backend.

So, my personal/developer hope is that their will be a dedicated Views API for geotagged photos allowing a navigation/lookup of their owners so that people can jump from current or searched location->photo->photographer->more photos->more locations->and so on...

I just released some mobile Android app for Panoramio (Panio/PanioPRO) and building it on top of PA was no fun (no easy way to get your fav photos, fav. photographers, login and all the photo meta data itself). 

This is now possible with the Picasa Data API (https://developers.google.com/picasa-web/docs/2.0/developers_guide_java).

That's why I personally support this move.

If more people jump on this train and migrate their nice photos (and their profile), then also the social demands of the PA users can be fulfilled (even better than today).

People need to understand that the 'future of IT is mobile' just as the 'future of IT was desktop/PC' some 15 years ago and as the 'future of photography is digital' since some 10 years or so. 

More and more people from around the world are now able to access the internet with cheap mobile devices (they can't and will never effort a PC!) and are eager to enjoy YOUR photos!

This is a big opportunity to share YOUR photos which you made with passion and skills with an already large and fast growing audience.

Most of them are just normal users but some of them are also photography enthusiasts and maybe even future friends.

Regards,

-Ralf

Am Dienstag, 23. September 2014 09:30:40 UTC+2 schrieb Hans Sterkendries:

[hvbemmel]

Enjoying your own photos and the photos of your peers by using a natively built app on a 10.1 inch tablet while sitting on the couch is just so much better than sitting in front of a notebook or PC and using the mouse/keyboard.

It´s good that everybody has his own preferences. I use my tablet outside because I can´t move my desktop all the time. I prefer my desktop above anything. My desktop is connected to my TV too if I want to have a better view. 

It´s the arrogance of Google, Microsoft etc who want to force us to love those "awesome and exiting" mobile devices. They call people who are not "exited" a minority and they go on producing Windows 8 kind of "we will force you to a touchscreen".

My mouse works wonderful and so does my keyboard. I can type with much more speed as on the touchscreen that doesn´t like my thick fingers.

A lot of people here in Panoramio want to make the best photos they can, not with a smartphone, even if it has a >40MP sensor behind a few mm big plastic lens. Those people have grown above the mediocrity of G+ and Views, they want more than that. None of us human beings are androids that have to walk behind each other. What happens her is that we are forced to give up our individualism and all be "exited" and "thrilled" about the group they want us to be in.

We are in a group. We are in a group where we want to be in and not where Google wants us to be in. Panoramio binds people with a same interest, languages, race or religion don´t throw up boundaries here. We don´t want to show and discuss the next pizzeria, we want to show the world that matters, we will decide for ourselves what´s exiting and awesome.       

[SinnT@ucher]

I think you made your point clear already in previous postings - however, it should also be allowed to state a different opinion and of course it's just my personal point of view.

[Draken]

It should also be allowed? 

Please let me know who has censored you or curtailed your right to express your point of view and in my capacity as forum moderator I will personally reprimand him/her. And, for the record, I completely disagree with you.

Thanks

[hvbemmel]

I started with "It´s good that everybody has his own preferences". You have yours, I have mine, and I respect yours totally. However you say that it´s better to sit on the couch etc. and I, just a Panoramio user like you, give you my contradicting opinion. For the rest I don´t think we should make a point out of this, it´s really not worth to do so. 

[SinnT@ucher]

Hello Draken, 

it would be polite (especially by a moderator) to not start the irony/sarcasm just now.

Best Regards,

-Ralf

[Hans Sterkendries]

Ralf,

First of all: thanks for Panio. I use it quite often.

I'm sure Views is a great product. For the mobile user that browses through the pictures. Not for the photographer that made them and shares them.

Views is not a photography website, it's a display for pictures and people have no control over how their pictures are being displayed.

Ok, you can do a little bit more in G+ but G+ isn't a photography website either, it's a social network and I prefer to choose what I do on a social network. I don't like to be forced to publicly share all my pictures on G+, I don't like that they get mixed up with the cartoons, gags, cat pictures and smartphone snapshots that I sometimes upload, even if they are in seperate maps.

Maps has an incredible disadvantages to them: you can only put picturs in a single map unless you start making copies. My pictures are in maps on my computer, sorted by destination. What I like about Panoramio is the fact that I takes me one click to retrieve all my pictures of flowers, of animals, of food...

And I hate that Views forces me to got to that back-end (G+) for things that should be obvious on a photography website, like checking meta data or looking at all the portraits by a specific photographer...

[Draken]

Ralf

There is no irony/sarcasm involved, but if you say "it should be allowed" means it is currently not allowed. And you have expressed your views (no pun intended) freely and you will keep doing it without censorship. In brief, you are asking for what you already have. 

El martes, 23 de septiembre de 2014 07:40:50 UTC-3, SinnT@ucher escribió:

Hello Draken, 

it would be polite (especially by a moderator) to not start the irony/sarcasm just now.

Best Regards,

-Ralf

[Roger Heath]

Ralf wrote - "People need to understand that the 'future of IT is mobile' just as the 'future of IT was desktop/PC' some 15 years ago and as the 'future of photography is digital' since some 10 years or so. "

I do not need to understand anything. I started with a MacSE in 1987 and all I ever wanted at that time was a screen that showed a single page of business text without scrolling!, Then came color! 

All I ever wanted was a larger screen because it seemed every design engineer must have had large screens which the corporation bought for the use of coding engineers. They tried to get way too much information on an internet or website page. Then sanity prevailed and for a few years most of the public had desktops with capabilities way beyond their needs, but there were no basic computers that worked with the complex coding for these newly developed websites. eBay is a classic example - search pages used to be simple, they still look simple, but provide no better service to the buyer thought the pages are significantly more complex! 

I have an iPhone which I use as a phone, I have a desktop which I use as a computer. I have no need when I go out to have a computer, I already know where I'm going, otherwise I would have stayed at home! 

Mobile is only considered the future because that's where the manufacturers can create new products to sell. The desktop market is saturated and provides all the services the typical person needs. There is only a "created" need for mobile internet services and they are all commercial to sell the public something. The greatest reason for mobile is to sell advertising! That's it, you pay all those advertising dollars whether you buy anything or not.

You must know that advertising rates are based on "use and page views"? 

Panoramio has no advertising prospect, and Google is going to change that. Whether people use G+ or any other advertising site controlled by Google will be determined by Google, not the users.

I really enjoyed Panoramio Groups as a community, though I was only a regular on a couple of groups. They were photographers, which was a much more interesting audience for my images than some young person using their mobile to find pizza!

[Roger Heath]

I forgot to mention the whole battle is not between mobile and desktop in the computer world, it's between cable carriers and wireless carriers and the wireless carriers must provide the same or more than the cable carriers. So you end up presently with cable going to TV entertainment and uninterrupted movies, and mobile going towards advertising and product sales. The wireless people are streaming movies and that really upsets the cable people. It's not a battle to be decided on a Panoramio Forum. LOL

[Tomas K☼h☼ut]

I've put my points about requested features here: https://groups.google.com/d/msg/panoramio-questions-support/0Sn6Yv_OoZ4/HDGaT9FBgPUJ

SinnT@ucher I can (partially) agree and partially disagree with  you...


You are right in this: 

- mobile cameras are taking over and  web is consumed more and more by handheld devices. 

Views are the step towards these trends. We can take it or leave it.

- mobile cameras are taking over 

It was not true in 2009, but it's true now. Average smartphones have now more megapixels than my favourite camera model (5.1 Mpix Olympus flagship model in 2003, so called semi-professional compact camera). Sometimes these smartphones even produce better technical quality photos than my old camera. ;-) 

Conclusion: we have ta accept the fact photosites will show more and more mobile photos. Panoramio has never been the site for photo professionals, so we cannot be "picky" and refuse mobile photos. And BTW, people can produce same low quality crap with mobile as with DSLR. 

But: Panoramio does accept mobile photos. There is no need to build extra web site to reflect this paradigm shift. More promotion of Panoramio for mobile users (supported by mobile app) would do the same trick, IMHO.

- web is consumed more and more by handheld devices. 

Large scale of devices requires adaptive display and control technology. Panoramio made one step forward with so called acrylic layout, which is able to adopt screen width (but not hight). VIews are much better at implementation of so called responsive design. Perhaps Panoramio underlying technology is not capable of this upgrade. OK, Views can be next version of Panoramio, based on modern technology - but at the moment it does not support some important features required by at least part of Panoramio users (see the link above). And the way how Views were introduced formed negatively biased part of community.

I oppose:

- API

I cannot compare API - so I believe you that Views provide better API. But API for metadata in Views? Views don't have tags, G+ has #singlewolrdhashtags... so what? Less effective,  incomplete and buggy API of Panoramio may be result of technology limit, but more likely it is result of unfinished work.

- endless scorlling

Also the mobile AND desktop experience is much better, modern and more fun (endless scrolling!). 

 Are you kidding? Endless scroll is for me one of the most annoying web features (pure nuisance!)! Will you start to read the book without knowing how long it is and if you can ever reach the end? When looking at someone's gallery, I want to know how large it is and I need to have easy navigation tool to jump at any section of the gallery (including the end). That's one of the reasons I don't like facebook and G+. It is frustrating to scroll around without being able to find "the anchor" I've been before.

In web design, it competes only with large overlay popups on mouse hover.  ;-)

Non-transparent integration of G+ and Views

I tried to put one of my photos to View. It allows me to select from my G+ photos. I picked up photo from album... Without my consent, it was duplicated to G+ album folder "Photos from my Posts" and flag of this album was set to "Location info in this album shared with others". Also my other album (which was created to support review I wrote for Google Places/Google Local) were published on Views without my awareness.

I think many people is going to publish on Views without knowing it. It can have fatal impact on what we can see on maps in near future (together with more relaxed "selected for maps" policy). 

Anyway - maintaining photos in G+ and Views is far from intuitive and transparent approach, it's real pain.

What I like on Views:

- responsive design

- connection between photos and  on map/photos page: mouse over hovered photos are highlighted on map (Yes, we have this feature on Panoramio prior September 2009 and I think it even has worked in both directions)

What I dislike on Views:

- mandatory G+ addon

- no Favourites

- no tags, no albums

- endless scrolling

- terrible URLs and addressing scheme

- advertising with photos

- misplaced photos

- photos probably published without informed consent they are going to be published on Views and Maps

- quite frequent "Ooops!" and "Server error" messages

- no photo community (at least in the moment, probably because most of photo is here published without knowing it).

As I said, I will wait for further Views development. Evnetually, I will migrate elsewhere. Unfortunately, no one photos site in my scope has such a good map with photo display as Panoramio has.

[Hans Sterkendries]

Tomas, to your dislikes I would like to add:

- unclear photo policy. I'm not against a broader selection but I would like to know in advance where it ends. E.g.: what about selfies? There is no justifiable reason in the photo policy to unselect them from Views/GM

- unclear policy on storge size that will be made available.

- absence of exif information

- absence of the possibility to download your own full-size picture without going to G+ but no direct link

- limited search method (only map)

And I have a basic concern: Views is NOT a photography website, it is a website where pictures from a very lousy back-end (G+) are being displayed. But I don't see how G+ can replace the community features we have on Panoramio...

[Daniela Brocca]

And photos cannot be seen in original size, or I did not found the way

[Lady GooGoo La La]

I think Ralf is coming from a developer perspective and most others here from a photographers perspective.

I think the primary motivation and goals of these potentially diametrically opposed groups can not be compared.

The same coin has two sides, I would leave it at that!

Lady GooGoo LaLa

[Tomas K☼h☼ut]

Yes Hans, all these points can be also on my list. ;-)

I have to admit, Panoramio storage quota was unclear too (formally: 2 GB for all, later GE selected, later mapped photos... but probably never forced into real life).

It took me some time to discover, at which albums are my photos showing in Views. I think this can be fixed by couple of simple links in Views: link to G+ album and link to photo.

And yes, full size photo storage (original) was one of the reasons I select Panoramio as my photo site.

Photo community out - Google's strategy seems to be: give us as many photos as you can, we will do our best (?) to display relevant ones. Once I heard that Google engineers are thinking of "blending" photos together to get 3D model of world and present it on maps. Even lousy and random shot may help them to put other photos together... Tours in GM are example of this "blending", perhaps there is more to come.

[Tomas K☼h☼ut]

Daniela, all I've found so far:

When you are at single photo view, e.g. https://www.google.com/maps/views/view/114255716661413462669/gphoto/6047406798053277250?gl=us,to click the link "View on Google Maps."

It is full screen view, but partially occupied by GM gadgets. But it is not original size photo.

[Tomas K☼h☼ut]

On Tuesday, September 23, 2014 6:56:19 PM UTC+2, Lady GooGoo La La wrote:

I think Ralf is coming from a developer perspective and most others here from a photographers perspective.

I think the primary motivation and goals of these potentially diametrically opposed groups can not be compared.

The same coin has two sides, I would leave it at that!

Lady GooGoo LaLa

Good point. As developer, I also try to be unbiased and calm. So I don't shout "no Views", but my position is "no such a kind of Views". ;-)

[Draken]

As a developer, do you think that by being calm and unbiased the Google developers will now hear what the community asks for and consequently produce a different kind of Views? You can whisper it to their ears and treat them as smoothly as they deserve and yet nothing is going to be achieved. 

[hvbemmel]

concerning storage size. It has been mentioned a few times to the moderators that Panoramio photos will have free storage space in G+.

leaves two questions; 

1. does that only count for PA photos that are present in PA now and will new photos, uploaded to, yes to what?, be not counted as Panoramio photos

2. Can we trust the team that they will stand to their word, Adam´s word, I fear not.

[Tomas K☼h☼ut]

Draken, you know me. I am cold guy with roots probably somewhere at North Europe - Slavic, German, Celtic ;-)  And you probably remember what I've said Adam about G+ (and social networking generally with respect to Panoramio users).

After first shock I am calm (as antonym for upset or hysteric)... but definitely not quiet! And I am open for suitable alternative. That's what Google managers should know (don't blame only developers). Evan, Brian, Allen - do you hear me?

[RoarX]

On Tuesday, September 23, 2014 7:24:36 PM UTC+2, hvbemmel wrote:

concerning storage size. It has been mentioned a few times to the moderators that Panoramio photos will have free storage space in G+.

leaves two questions; 

1. does that only count for PA photos that are present in PA now and will new photos, uploaded to, yes to what?, be not counted as Panoramio photos

2. Can we trust the team that they will stand to their word, Adam´s word, I fear not.

1. Have a look again at my thoughts in this post. I think the conclusion is:
"does that only count for PA photos that are present in PA now" Yes, seem to be the answer. From Brian's post: "Your photos will be saved into public albums in Google+ and we will provide you a Google Drive storage bonus to cover the additional data usage"

"will new photos, uploaded to, yes to what?, be not counted as Panoramio photos"  No. In order to add photos to GM via Views, you must upload them to Google+ and add them to Views from there. This means that our future photos in GM will be limited just like the photos we upload to G+. If we upload our photos in full size, photos over 2048 pixels on the longest edge will use of our free storage quota we have in Google Drive, which is shared by other Google services like Google docs and Gmail.

2. Nope...

[Hans Sterkendries]

Herman, I asked Evan in a reaction to the G+ post where he announced Views. Basically, the answer was: we don't know the details yet. How reassuring to see that the world's largest internet company announces a great shake-up in their photography projects but has no plan of action.

My fear is that the storage will only be (virtually) unlimited when you share your pictures publicly, thus forcing people that have stayed in Panoramio for as long as they could to move to Views instead of storing their pictures on G+..

On Tuesday, September 23, 2014 7:24:36 PM UTC+2, hvbemmel wrote:

[© Tom Cooper not going to Views]

Tomas,

 

To add to the list of dislikes:

- loss of accurate mapping.  Views photos appear to map to the "Snap To" location.  How will that work with global icons like the Eiffel Tower or the Statue of Liberty?

 

Tom

On Tuesday, September 23, 2014 10:25:03 AM UTC-5, Tomas K☼h☼ut wrote:

I've put my points about requested features here: https://groups.google.com/d/msg/panoramio-questions-support/0Sn6Yv_OoZ4/HDGaT9FBgPUJ

 

[Daniela Brocca]

I hear or better I see  from a German user I met in the week-end in Bern that if you upload  to G+ and from there to Panoramio you have no exif data.They get lost in the change. Will that be the same in Views? Why do we have to upload to G+ to have the photos in Views?

[RoarX]

You don't upload anything to Views, Views is using Google+ photos  (which technically is Google Drive) to store the photos. When you visit someones Views gallery, the photos will be loaded from G+. Views is simply a selection central for photos that will be shown in GM (and GE??) with it's own "view on the map" feature.

[Daniela Brocca]

Thank you  Roar. That is even  worse  than I thought.

[Hans Sterkendries]

Daniela, I'm proud to say I don't have a single picture on Views ;-)

On the dark side, that means I'm mostly guessing when it comes to the exact behaviour.

Yesterday, I had a go at the Google Take-Out and from what I read about the export tot G+ that export appears to use a technique similar to Take-Out.

What I found is this:

I got 51 archives, 2Gb each. I downloaded one of them with Chrome. Download is slow but works.

I found three major issues:

- titles have a maximum of 50 characters (including the blanks). 

- some pictures have a geolocation embedded in them but in my first archive that was the case for only 110 out of 846 pictures. The mapping appears to remain correct, also for the pictures that were snapped to a place but I didn't check them all.

- Those SAME pictures still have their tags embedded

Which pictures keep their geolocation and tags and which one lose them seems to be completely random. My first archive contained my oldest pictures and back then I didn't map offline. Pictures that were take a few minutes apart and uploaded in the same batch can show a completely different behaviour...

So basically it's BAD and we have to pick between the devil and the deep blue sea... And if G+ and Views get pushed in the form and manner I knwo what I will be doing: a Take-Out makes me lose a lot information but not nearly as much as G+ and Views where there are no tags for instance.

[papkassen]

Hans, you have a lot of picture on G+, are you sure, they are not in Views ?

[Hans Sterkendries]

It says 0 photos:

https://www.google.com/maps/views/profile/111135452477449890903?gl=us&pv=2&tab=1

I don't know why. Most of the pictures in G+ don't have a geolocation but some do. And despite being publicly shared they don't show up in Views...

[RoarX]

You must have sharing of geo location activated on the albums and individual photos for photos to show in Views. See the photo settings.

[Draken]

Roar

Does it mean an album could be publicly shared (on Google+) but not shown (on Views) because the geolocation is disabled in the settings?

Is there a geolocation setting for each album? Or is it an overall function?

El miércoles, 24 de septiembre de 2014 08:58:52 UTC-3, RoarX escribió:

You must have sharing of geo location activated on the albums and individual photos for photos to show in Views. See the photo settings.

On Wednesday, September 24, 2014 1:32:39 PM UTC+2, Hans Sterkendries wrote:

[RoarX]

"Does it mean an album could be publicly shared (on Google+) but not shown (on Views) because the geolocation is disabled in the settings?"

Yes.


I had a quick look at my albums. You cannot change location sharing settings per photo as I thought, but you can change location settings per album. This can be done in the photo details section of each individual photo in the album (see directly under the map) and in the settings of each album (arrow down to the right -> sharing options). In the main settings of your G+ account, you will find the following passage after a tick box: "Show geo location information on newly uploaded photos and videos."

[Hans Sterkendries]

My guess: Google is going to play the storage card. We get extra volume on Google+ (i.e. Google Drive) to harbour our Panoramio pictures... but only when the geolocation is shared, hence when the picture can be used in Views...

[SinnT@ucher]

I think - after all - I am thankful for being part of a big 'party' that already started some 7 (or more?) years ago.

I joined only 3 years ago but got free drinks (storage) and lots of good music (photos, people, comments) since then.

Google paid with real money and spent it for hardware, software, electricity and people maintaining the 'party' room.

However, now it seems that the owner of the house is not willing to pay the bill for me and all of us anymore.

But things don't seem completely bad - do they?

Google is offering another room for us to go to, with some different set of drinks maybe and some other kind of music and yes, the surrounding and the tapestry looks different.

Let's see if and how much we now have to pay for the drinks and then everyone can either accept the offer (and continue with a bit different kind of party) or not.

[Hans Sterkendries]

SinnT@ucher, I will stick with your analogy but the problem is the new room is a train station. A room with very limited functionalities and a bad acoustic because it was not designed to play music in. As a matter of fact there is no live music. You only hear Radio Google+ through the speakers but without noise reduction.

:-D

[Draken]

Sticking to the proposed analogy.

In  that train station you want to find your friends who have also been invited to the party. But do you know what? It is impossible to find them and communicate with them because the train station looks like an Escher design. And if you happen to find them or to make new friends you can't leave messages and they can't either. And your personal card (photo URL and user page URL) is so long nobody from inside the party or from outside will use it.

[© Tom Cooper not going to Views]

And even though it is the train station, your passengers can't actually get on a train there (unless they are "smart" passengers).  You have to take them to the bus terminal and put them in a taxi cab.  At some undetermined point by some undisclosed mechanism, some of them will end up somewhere near a train station somewhat related to their destination.

 

Tom

[Draken]

Please tell me whether I am right.

I followed this path:

https://www.google.com/maps/views/

Explore> Drop down Menu>Contribute with Photos>https://www.google.com/intl/en-419/maps/about/contribute/photosphere/

Contribute with photos means... photospheres!!   Is this how we are going to be welcome at the party?

[© Tom Cooper not going to Views]

I think that is simply because the developers (you know, the ones that are "passionate about photography") don't know there is a difference between a photo and a photosphere.

Tom

[hvbemmel]

They opened Views for photospheres. Just as in Panoramio they never look back, never change the helpfile either (like email addresses, etc, etc, etc). 

BTW, they never look sideways either,

come to think of it

[hvbemmel]

Google paid with real money and spent it for hardware, software, electricity and people maintaining the 'party' room.

However, now it seems that the owner of the house is not willing to pay the bill for me and all of us anymore.

According to Evan Panoramio makes a profit with our photos, with clicks made on all the places our photos can be seen. So Google earned money with our fun. Panoramio was and is in our mutual interest .

That they make less clicks since they don´t show our photos, well you can not blame us for that. 

We are at a party where I have to pay with my photos, with the work I have to present my photos favorably. There are users who don´t pay with quality, you will find them on every party. Panoramio does not need to thank me for my contribution, but I certainly don´t have to thank them. 

We had a meeting in Barcelona some years ago where Google told us that the future of internet is User Generated Content, internet 3.0 they even called it. Google makes money with UGC, they plan to make even more money with it. Well I can tell them this is not the way. For UGC you will have to keep the users happy, rule one in their own book. 

Perhaps we are the storm troopers, the vocal minority as Evan likes to call it, but in this world it´s still the vocal minority that rules in the end. What they seem to forget is that Google needs us, we don´t need Google.

[Kevin Childress]

Its the people at Panoramio that have kept me coming back ...

Time and time again. It is my respect and genuine admiration for the relationships I've been blessed with via Panoramio that keep me coming back. Like many other users I have been frustrated repeatedly over the years with certain directions the directors of Panoramio have taken. A couple times I became so frustrated that I voted with my feet and walked away. But if it weren't for Panoramio, I doubt that I would have been able to develop the number of relationships I have, with many very talented photographers, in many countries, on every continent around the globe. So I keep coming back to maintain, nurture, and grow those relationships. What now? What steps are being taken to prepare Views for the Panoramio community? What about the people? Or are Google simply foregoing the idea of preserving relationships in order to "serve billions"? Its a shame to see so many of the people I admire at Panoramio, people who care a great deal about the quality of their work, be shoved towards a platform where quality appears to be very, very, very low on the list of priorities from its contributors. Nice going, Google, and congratulations on your vision for improving the quality of your "product". 

[Draken]

I am pretty sure that if a Googler posts again in this forum it will be to say that we are overreacting (of course they will not use this verb, they want to be tactful). To say once again Panoramio is not closing down but being migrated to a better, modern, super, faster, slick, new platform. And we all have to be happy. Wait and see.

Well, if you deprive a website, which is not only a place to display photos but a community (a photo social media), of its core features that amounts to kill it. 

The question remains? Why not implementing the Panoramio core features into Views? If it is a better, newer platform Views can certainly deal with those features that are run on this "old-fashioned" website.

[df3vi]

I think the comment section will not be implemented in Views because they want you to do this with G+. The overall strategy is to boost G+. That 500 million users are registered with G+ does not mean that 500 million users are using it, communicating with it. Just a small fraction is actually doing it. Four million Panoramio users using G+ for communicating probably would mean a great boost for this almost abandoned social network. Views is just the "hook", you see the photo in Views and then go to G+ and comment there.

[hvbemmel]

Well overreacting goes many ways.

Calling the changes in Panoramio last year awesome and exiting is overreacting for sure. In fact overreacting is an euphemism there . The same but then 10X  (ah, Lisbon) goes for this migration to views. some religions call death a migration I think . I see it in that light. Migrating in to oblivion.

[HikingMike, hikingmike.com]

Great discussions here. I am only now realizing this upheaval! I am sort of glad I haven't made it through all my photos that I wanted to put up on Panoramio, only a small portion so far.

Here are some of my thoughts-

I love Panoramio because of the opportunity of my photos to show up on Google Earth and Maps to fill in some empty spaces on the map so others can see these places in their virtual exploration, the commenting ability, groups, and social aspects. All of this with a link back to my account, where people can find me and communicate. My activity on Panoramio is an extension of my website where I write about backpacking and hiking.

I have not enabled my main Google account for Google+. I'd prefer not to use my real name for things that are completely web-public just for simple privacy reasons. I imagine I will be forced into using Google+ one way or another, but so far have held out. I do have another account that was created later, so is already Google+ enabled.


My questions:

I noticed both Evan Rapoport and Brian McClendon mentioned Google Earth and Maps in reference to Panoramio, but only Google Maps in reference to Views. Is this because Views photos will not show up in Google Earth, or because maybe Google Earth is merging into Maps and they will basically be one product eventually?

What if your Google account is not Google+ enabled?


I have my Panoramio account linked with my main Google Account. But I haven't made that account Google+ enabled. I don't think I want to yet. I have another Google account that I would be perfectly happy to make Google+ enabled (since it doesn't use my real name and I can separate things the way I like with it being solely used for my HikingMike persona). Will it be possible for me to migrate to that one instead when the migration becomes possible? I may have some tough decisions to make.


"Once I heard that Google engineers are thinking of "blending" photos together to get 3D model of world and present it on maps. Even lousy and random shot may help them to put other photos together... Tours in GM are example of this "blending", perhaps there is more to come."

I have the sneaking suspicion that this will probably eventually be the case, and the photographer will receive little to no recognition themselves. There won't be an obvious way to view the photographer's other photos. There will just be photographic information available to the consumer as a way to drive traffic and views and ads. The photographers mean little to Google, only the geotagged photos do - because the photographers aren't driving revenue, the regular users are.

[hvbemmel]

Panoramio and Views both are parts of Google Maps team, which is part of the Geo Team which also includes GE an Mapmaker. What I get from the messages we once got from the team there are two things important for Google; G+ and mobile. My impression is that GM will be used for everything and GE will be more specialised as it is not very interesting for mobile. Where Google is aiming for is a worldwide coverage of Streetview (also part of Views) preferably made by themselves (cars, backpacks) and the blanks filled up by UGC (User Generated Content). It wouldn´t surprise me if in the end photographers get the sam message as the Users that devoted much time to make 3D models and got the message: We take it from here ourselves, bye.

Your PA account is attached to a Google account; that´s "for life", nu "unattaching" possible . If you want your PA photos in Views / G+ you will have to sign up for G+ with that Google account. Alternatively you can take out your photos (https://www.google.com/settings/takeout) and upload them to G+ in an other account, they will then go to Views automatically if they are geolocated and shared publicly.  

[SJNieto]

Panoramio photos have not yet transferred to Google+, correct?

[hvbemmel]

correct