Where do you still consider Flex the best technology choice?

[Joel Hooks]

I think that it is important to consider the best technology to fit a given task, as Mike mentioned in his Flex Forward post this past weekend.

Where do you think the strongest use cases for Flex are right now?

[Yennick Trevels]

Flex is an excellent framework to create highly responsive and good looking enterprise applications. It has a rich set of components, it's highly extendable and it's programming model is one of the best I've encountered. It can be used in a wide spectrum of enterprise applications, but applications where data visualization is very important are the ones where it excels at.

Mobile applications that have to run on multiple mobile OS's are another good use case for Flex (and AIR) since you can program it once and deploy it on every device. I wouldn't use Flex for applications that should only run on one mobile OS.

I also wouldn't use Flex for public web applications which run in the browser (e.g. twitter, gmail, google reader, etc.), but I would use it for public desktop applications (e.g. TweetDeck).

[Derrick Anderson]

I agree, personally I could never get past the overall size of the Flex framework in public apps.  It is great for enterprise where you have some flexibility in that area.  Using with AIR for proprietary graphical desktop apps as well as mobile apps seems to be the best fit for Flex now (and always did, really).

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[Joel Hooks]

This is something I built several years ago for my wife's business:

http://session.visualempathy.com/

user:demo_client

pass:demo_client

4 years later, and I still can't imagine getting the same "richness" out of an HTML/JS app. On the other hand, our clients would really like it to run on their iPads (which didn't exist at the time).

Maybe not a "public" app as it is limited to our internal clients, so that is a bit of a hybrid.

-- 
Joel Hooks

[Yennick Trevels]

That's indeed a good looking app!

I think my opinion about the public web apps has something to do with user expectations. When a user visits a website he expects a "site", not an application, because it's always been like that in the browser. A "site" and an "application" have a totally different feel to them. With corporate clients it's a bit easier because you are serving an application to them via the browser, and in corporations you expect the use applications.

[Derrick Anderson]

Right, as good as that app is - it is still an app and requires a good 10-15 seconds of download/setup the first time through.  If I'm expecting high traffic from public users, that just isn't gonna cut it.  For it's purpose, this site looks great.

Derrick

On Tue, Nov 22, 2011 at 2:29 PM, Yennick Trevels <yennick...@gmail.com> wrote:

That's indeed a good looking app!

I think my opinion about the public web apps has something to do with user expectations. When a user visits a website he expects a "site", not an application, because it's always been like that in the browser. A "site" and an "application" have a totally different feel to them. With corporate clients it's a bit easier because you are serving an application to them via the browser, and in corporations you expect the use applications.

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[Joel Hooks]

Ya, exactly. Frankly I didn't even try to optimize it. Haven't had a complaint about it (outside of lack of tablet version). It is a matter of expectations.

This is one that I've actually considered re-approaching as a JS app, but come to my senses rather quickly every time.

This particular app also has an AIR component that is used for management. This is another area where I see Flex as essential. I don't know how you separate AIR and Flex and still get a viable platform.

-- 
Joel Hooks

[Adrian Więcek]

I would use Flex for data driven projects such as stock trading and dashboarding applications. Also for applications that require rich and responsive user interface like diagramming tools and all kinds of visual designers (like your wall designer). I think modularity is also the strength of Flex. For enterprises, where distributed teams are very common, flex makes independent modules development easier, and I think improving modular application development and testing tools, should be one of the goals for future framework releases.

[gspiridonov]

I got into flex recently for work, I was working on a series of web-based maps using a specific software created by ESRI.  ESRI had several API's for different languages to create RIA's, but doing research into it showed that FLEX was being used much more than the others.  So far the options were Silverlight, ASP.NET, or FLEX... and since the beginning they have dropped ASP.NET... a viable HTML5 options has not come around, and in fact some examples I've seen people has nowhere near the performance that FLEX has.  I haven't looked back since, and find that FLEX has be almost painless when creating a very advanced web map... I am currently also porting a similar map to mobile devices using the same API, something I could never do with any other API.

Here's the link of the Web Map I created using the API.

[Brian Genisio]

Although I think that VE:Session app looks nice, this is hardly
outside of the realm of what an HTML-based app can do.

I can say with certainty that I can build an app like that in
HTML/JS/CSS today. In reality, I'd probably go
Rails/CoffeeScript/Sass/jQuery/Backbone.js and I could make a pretty
slick app that looks exactly like that.

Don't get me wrong, I like Flex. I think it has it's place. It has
some great abstractions over HTML. I also think that the HTML space
is maturing really well and there are some amazing tools you can piece
together in a way that allows for some real development power.

@BrianGenisio (who hopes he doesn't get flamed for what he wrote)

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[Joel Hooks]

I don't disagree, but it'd be a pain in the ass in terms of browser consistency. I think the "wall designer" portion would also be a challenge to have it flow like it does in Flash. I've used several tools that were similar in terms of interactivity, and they just don't feel right yet. That gap is rapidly closing though. 

VE:Session is a Django app, not that I have anything against Rails ;P

j

[Philip Keiter]

Flash is strong for these use cases:
Advanced, unique, user interaction.
Client-side object oriented design (and its benefits).
Modules (including but not limited to Flex modules).
Cross platform app.
Distinct apps accessing the same data from different platforms.

The Flex Framework provides a bonus to development speed for Flash
applications needing the components it provides.

Therefor the strong use cases for Flex is all the strong use cases for
Flash, minus the cases where Flex has nothing to offer, minus the
cases where its weight outweighs its value added to the Flash app.

[leds usop]

We have a very interesting use case for flex - rather AIR:

Internal desktop based-shell with remotely-loaded modules (that is not supported by AIR by default).

what we are doing with it is what Adobe's Mosaic is supposed to do (assuming they will have AIR implementation).

That said, we can do load either an swf module or an html/html5 subset in there and we are still able to use blazeDS or LCDS.

I guess it's just another statistical plus on intrernal desktop apps on AIR that will potentially use a lot of visualization, reporting, and other interactions.

---

From: Philip Keiter <philip...@gmail.com>
To: Open Spoon Community <open-spoon...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2011 2:17 PM
Subject: Re: Where do you still consider Flex the best technology choice?

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[Robert Morse]

We build applications primarily for large insurance companies.   Up to now, these have been web based:   Java EE, Seam / CDI on the backend and JSF / JSF2 on the client.  We're looking at moving a lot of this functionality to mobile devices where Internet connectivity may not be available, so our options are Flex or Objective C (we're focused on IOS for now).  I think we can be more productive with Flex and be interoperable with multiple platforms.  So, for us, dedicated apps on mobile devices is the strongest use case right now.   As an aside, the recent Adobe announcements on the future of Flex, Air and Flash has the Adobe Flex 4.6 Pre-Release forum in a state of apoplexy, so there needs to be a fair amount of PR done to calm everyone down.

On Nov 22, 2011, at 11:26 AM, Joel Hooks wrote:

I think that it is important to consider the best technology to fit a given task, as Mike mentioned in his Flex Forward post this past weekend.

Where do you think the strongest use cases for Flex are right now?

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Robert Morse

Predictive Logic LLC

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[Stephen Adams]

I think Flex has it's place as a solution to creating cross platform apps for both mobile and desktop, two areas I'm keen on. I also think Flex is a great solution for small/micro-ISV companies, who want to create a product that can reach as many people as possible.

A question I do have, now that Flex has been 'released' by Adobe, how will it remain the main language for AIR or are they planning to move HTML5 as being the main way to build AIR apps? I prefer Flex for any AIR app I develop and hope that Flex stays that way.

[gspiridonov]

It's supposed to be supported indefinitely by flash and AIR, but
obviously those things can change. Depending on how much of a
community we build for FLEX when it is released to Apache, we have the
potential of making it a popular, open sourced choice for those
developers... meaning there would be no reason for Adobe to stop
supporting it. To me it seems that this change wasn't so much to drop
FLEX for HTML5, it was to give the community a chance to contribute to
FLEX in a way they couldn't before.

On Nov 23, 4:41 am, Stephen Adams <stephenada...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I think Flex has it's place as a solution to creating cross platform apps
> for both mobile and desktop, two areas I'm keen on. I also think Flex is a
> great solution for small/micro-ISV companies, who want to create a product
> that can reach as many people as possible.
>
> A question I do have, now that Flex has been 'released' by Adobe, how will
> it remain the main language for AIR or are they planning to move HTML5 as
> being the main way to build AIR apps? I prefer Flex for any AIR app I
> develop and hope that Flex stays that way.
>
> On 22 November 2011 22:53, Robert Morse <rmo...@predictivelogic.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > We build applications primarily for large insurance companies.   Up to
> > now, these have been web based:   Java EE, Seam / CDI on the backend and
> > JSF / JSF2 on the client.  We're looking at moving a lot of this
> > functionality to mobile devices where Internet connectivity may not be
> > available, so our options are Flex or Objective C (we're focused on IOS for
> > now).  I think we can be more productive with Flex and be interoperable
> > with multiple platforms.  So, for us, dedicated apps on mobile devices is
> > the strongest use case right now.   As an aside, the recent Adobe
> > announcements on the future of Flex, Air and Flash has the Adobe Flex 4.6
> > Pre-Release forum in a state of apoplexy, so there needs to be a fair
> > amount of PR done to calm everyone down.
>
> > On Nov 22, 2011, at 11:26 AM, Joel Hooks wrote:
>
> >  I think that it is important to consider the best technology to fit a

> > given task, as Mike mentioned in his Flex Forward post<http://www.spoon.as/2011/flex-forward/>this past weekend.

[Steve Mathews]

Flash is like a dead man walking.

Making Flex truly open source could have been a great thing on its own. We (the community) could have done some really great things with it. But as it stands, what is the point? Some of us have put our entire careers into the Flash platform because it continued to be the best solution for the projects we worked on. But in the next few years that option could very well be gone.

What incentive does Adobe have to continue any work on the Flash Player? They are supporting HTML5. They are going to make tools for HTML5. Tools is the only place they make any real money. The Flash Player was the target for Flash Pro and Flash Builder. But they have already started work on changing that. Once (IF) these tools are viable options for doing HTML development, what is the purpose of the Flash Player?

They only possible way I could see the Flash Player surviving very long at this point is for Adobe to also contribute it to open source. But that is chock full of legal issues that the community would be hard pressed to solve.

I have been doing Flash development for over 10 years. I hope my next job is not doing Flash.

P.S. I think Adobe is making a mistake targeting HTML5. What they need to focus on is tools to build interactive experiances regardless of the technology. They should be working to make the tools technology agnostic, allowing them to avoid this issue in the future and instead of saying "We are killing support for ABC because we think XYZ is the next big thing". Instead they would have a marketing bullet point saying "We now support XYZ on top of the many other technologies that we previously supported." My 2 cents.

[Derrick Anderson]

There are other things to consider, just because html5 can do a lot of things that flash can do, it doesn't mean it's a good idea.  I have not seen one thing in html5 that would make me abandon all the OO beauty inside my enterprise flex apps for a mountain of spaghetti javascript and browser hacks in an html5 app.

Also consider this... look how long it takes anything to happen with the w3c...  Maybe one day javascript will be replaced with some awesome ubiquitous OO language, but if that ever happens i bet it's 10 years down the road at least.  What can we do with flex and flash in the next 10 years?  I bet a lot more, and that keeps me as a developer interested enough in the platform.

I agree with your P.S., bridging this divide between html5's abilities and being easy and intuitive to write is where Adobe should put their focus- then maybe one day flash will not be needed but i'm not jumping ship just yet.

d.

[Steve Mathews]

" What can we do with flex and flash in the next 10 years?"

We can't do anything with Flash in the next 10 years. We are depending on Adobe to support the player, yet their recent actions tell me that they won't for much longer (outside of security and major bug fixes).

[Yennick Trevels]

They won't abandon Flash anytime soon. They've acknowledged that HTML5 still needs a couple of years to be a viable solution for enterprise applications, so until then it's Flex (and therefore Flash).

And even if they want to drop Flash for standard applications in the long term, I think they are still heavily focused around 3D gaming in Flash, so they will be improving the Flash player for just that. Gaming with Flash is already very big, but now they've got a whole new market with 3D gaming in the browser.

[Derrick Anderson]

Agreed, maybe not 'long live flash player' but it will be around for a while at least.  Let's stop declaring the 'death' of things and make Flex what we want it to be while we have a chance, html5 has a long way to go and look how long it took to get to where it is. 

On Wed, Nov 23, 2011 at 10:16 AM, Yennick Trevels <yennick...@gmail.com> wrote:

They won't abandon Flash anytime soon. They've acknowledged that HTML5 still needs a couple of years to be a viable solution for enterprise applications, so until then it's Flex (and therefore Flash).

And even if they want to drop Flash for standard applications in the long term, I think they are still heavily focused around 3D gaming in Flash, so they will be improving the Flash player for just that. Gaming with Flash is already very big, but now they've got a whole new market with 3D gaming in the browser.

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[Stefan Horochovec]

Hello

I believe it is the will of everyone in this group Derrick Anderson, but one thing is what we want and the other is what the market is demanding.

This uncertainty about the future of the Flex SDK, where the project will be allocated, etc., is only causing Adobe to lose even more trust by companies.

Large companies are willing to pay more for HTML5 solutions, with fewer resources than expect this definition.

Adobe invested in Flash player for mobile, made companies like Google and RIM to buy the fight to have the player on their devices, and from day to night, she gave up the idea, it got bad for customers, who question, does not it will happen to the Player for Desktops? Does Adobe AIR will even continue?

Adobe has lost the trust, people believe in a Flex better in the hand of the community, but what about how it will run? Flash Player and Adobe AIR? Both lost credibility.

Stefan Horochovec
Software Engineer
Blog: http://www.horochovec.com.br/
Twitter: http://twitter.com/horochovec

2011/11/23 Derrick Anderson <derr...@winntech.net>

[Derrick Anderson]

The only thing I've not totally agreed with everyone here on so far is whether or not we should give up development targeting the flash player.  Abandoning FP for mobile is not a sign to me that FP, Flex, and Air are all gone.  Lost some credibility?  Sure.  But we all knew flash player for mobile would not continue long term, the writing was on the wall when Apple killed it.

Speaking of enterprises, if you are an enterprise developer you know that many large companies are still stuck in the dark ages on IE7 (or even 6!).  All these html5 goodies will not do much for them, and I can't imagine many 'demanding' that new development be html5 when their own infrastructures are miles away from supporting it.  This is where Flex and the Flash Player have their best value in my opinion and was the answer to the original question, enterprise software.  I have built a few apps that would take a year or two to completely re-write in html5 and the companies I work for are so far not willing to make that investment from a badly worded press release.  Maybe down the road, but not yet.

d.

[Mark Line]

The company I work for do a lot of work with a large investment bank in London and they are on IE6, although they are planning on rolling out Windows 7 they have no plans to keep upgrading browsers.  Luckily for us they have Flash player 11 installed.

 

I can see Flex living on in the enterprise world for a long while.  I enjoying coding in Flex and hope it does survive, but I have no problems learning another language, in fact I think picking something else up as well will only improve my coding.

 

Lets just focus on building a good solid future for the platform we all enjoying writing in!

 

From: Derrick Anderson

Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2011 4:21 PM

To: open-spoon...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: Where do you still consider Flex the best technology choice?

 

The only thing I've not totally agreed with everyone here on so far is whether or not we should give up development targeting the flash player.  Abandoning FP for mobile is not a sign to me that FP, Flex, and Air are all gone.  Lost some credibility?  Sure.  But we all knew flash player for mobile would not continue long term, the writing was on the wall when Apple killed it.

 

Speaking of enterprises, if you are an enterprise developer you know that many large companies are still stuck in the dark ages on IE7 (or even 6!).  All these html5 goodies will not do much for them, and I can't imagine many 'demanding' that new development be html5 when their own infrastructures are miles away from supporting it.  This is where Flex and the Flash Player have their best value in my opinion and was the answer to the original question, enterprise software.  I have built a few apps that would take a year or two to completely re-write in html5 and the companies I work for are so far not willing to make that investment from a badly worded press release.  Maybe down the road, but not yet.

 

d.

 

On Wed, Nov 23, 2011 at 10:33 AM, Stefan Horochovec <stefan.h...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hello

 

I believe it is the will of everyone in this group Derrick Anderson, but one thing is what we want and the other is what the market is demanding.

 

This uncertainty about the future of the Flex SDK, where the project will be allocated, etc., is only causing Adobe to lose even more trust by companies.

 

Large companies are willing to pay more for HTML5 solutions, with fewer resources than expect this definition.

 

Adobe invested in Flash player for mobile, made companies like Google and RIM to buy the fight to have the player on their devices, and from day to night, she gave up the idea, it got bad for customers, who question, does not it will happen to the Player for Desktops? Does Adobe AIR will even continue?

 

Adobe has lost the trust, people believe in a Flex better in the hand of the community, but what about how it will run? Flash Player and Adobe AIR? Both lost credibility.

 

Stefan Horochovec
Software Engineer
Blog: http://www.horochovec.com.br/
Twitter: http://twitter.com/horochovec

2011/11/23 Derrick Anderson <derr...@winntech.net>

Agreed, maybe not 'long live flash player' but it will be around for a while at least.  Let's stop declaring the 'death' of things and make Flex what we want it to be while we have a chance, html5 has a long way to go and look how long it took to get to where it is. 

On Wed, Nov 23, 2011 at 10:16 AM, Yennick Trevels <yennick...@gmail.com> wrote:

They won't abandon Flash anytime soon. They've acknowledged that HTML5 still needs a couple of years to be a viable solution for enterprise applications, so until then it's Flex (and therefore Flash).

And even if they want to drop Flash for standard applications in the long term, I think they are still heavily focused around 3D gaming in Flash, so they will be improving the Flash player for just that. Gaming with Flash is already very big, but now they've got a whole new market with 3D gaming in the browser.

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[Adrian Więcek]

Thats true. Things in our profession change in a blink. Today we are
"Flex/Flash figthers", maybe in 5 years we will be "HTML5 fighters" or
even "JavaFX fighters":)We have to inspect and adapt (like in Scrum)
to survive, constantly learn and improve, but I won't give up on Flex
that easy, there is plenty of room on the market and strong
competition is always good for us developers, wanting to create better
stuff more quickly. We have to identify which way Flex should go, so
it could became the best tool for specified (maybe narrowed) job.

On 23 Lis, 17:54, "Mark Line" <markl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The company I work for do a lot of work with a large investment bank in London and they are on IE6, although they are planning on rolling out Windows 7 they have no plans to keep upgrading browsers.  Luckily for us they have Flash player 11 installed.
>
> I can see Flex living on in the enterprise world for a long while.  I enjoying coding in Flex and hope it does survive, but I have no problems learning another language, in fact I think picking something else up as well will only improve my coding.
>
> Lets just focus on building a good solid future for the platform we all enjoying writing in!
>
> From: Derrick Anderson
> Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2011 4:21 PM
> To: open-spoon...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: Where do you still consider Flex the best technology choice?
>
> The only thing I've not totally agreed with everyone here on so far is whether or not we should give up development targeting the flash player.  Abandoning FP for mobile is not a sign to me that FP, Flex, and Air are all gone.  Lost some credibility?  Sure.  But we all knew flash player for mobile would not continue long term, the writing was on the wall when Apple killed it.
>
> Speaking of enterprises, if you are an enterprise developer you know that many large companies are still stuck in the dark ages on IE7 (or even 6!).  All these html5 goodies will not do much for them, and I can't imagine many 'demanding' that new development be html5 when their own infrastructures are miles away from supporting it.  This is where Flex and the Flash Player have their best value in my opinion and was the answer to the original question, enterprise software.  I have built a few apps that would take a year or two to completely re-write in html5 and the companies I work for are so far not willing to make that investment from a badly worded press release.  Maybe down the road, but not yet.
>
> d.
>

> On Wed, Nov 23, 2011 at 10:33 AM, Stefan Horochovec <stefan.horocho...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>   Hello
>
>   I believe it is the will of everyone in this group Derrick Anderson, but one thing is what we want and the other is what the market is demanding.
>
>   This uncertainty about the future of the Flex SDK, where the project will be allocated, etc., is only causing Adobe to lose even more trust by companies.
>
>   Large companies are willing to pay more for HTML5 solutions, with fewer resources than expect this definition.
>
>   Adobe invested in Flash player for mobile, made companies like Google and RIM to buy the fight to have the player on their devices, and from day to night, she gave up the idea, it got bad for customers, who question, does not it will happen to the Player for Desktops? Does Adobe AIR will even continue?
>
>   Adobe has lost the trust, people believe in a Flex better in the hand of the community, but what about how it will run? Flash Player and Adobe AIR? Both lost credibility.
>
>   Stefan Horochovec
>   Software Engineer
>   Blog:http://www.horochovec.com.br/
>   Twitter:http://twitter.com/horochovec
>

>   2011/11/23 Derrick Anderson <derri...@winntech.net>

>
>     Agreed, maybe not 'long live flash player' but it will be around for a while at least.  Let's stop declaring the 'death' of things and make Flex what we want it to be while we have a chance, html5 has a long way to go and look how long it took to get to where it is.
>

>     On Wed, Nov 23, 2011 at 10:16 AM, Yennick Trevels <yennick.trev...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>       They won't abandon Flash anytime soon. They've acknowledged that HTML5 still needs a couple of years to be a viable solution for enterprise applications, so until then it's Flex (and therefore Flash).
>       And even if they want to drop Flash for standard applications in the long term, I think they are still heavily focused around 3D gaming in Flash, so they will be improving the Flash player for just that. Gaming with Flash is already very big, but now they've got a whole new market with 3D gaming in the browser.
>       --
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[Michael Labriola]

I don't think we need to abandon Flash Player... I think we need a choice to target the web browser, the flash player or AIR. (at least to start)

[Steve Mathews]

So it seems that I am in the minority (at least on this list) that doesn't trust Adobe to continue support for the Flash Player in the long term. I am curious what others see as the motivation for Adobe to do this? What do they get from the player business wise? I don't believe they can make any money off of it, and probably pay a lot of money in engineering and licensing fees. For the time being they will continue with it because they can still sell Flash Pro and Flash Builder, but for how long?

[Derrick Anderson]

Because they can still make money off the tools to build apps with it, Flash Builder, Flash Pro...  Drop the player and you have to drop these, drop adobe connect... Adobe's own 'touch' products are based on Flash so you have to kill those as well...  The implications are far-reaching, Adobe needs the flash player.

[Stefan Horochovec]

Well

As I said, I also believe that today, only the Flex can provide the best level for businesses to enterprise-level solutions.

However, as I said, there was a great confidence in Adobe, Flash Player has always been highly regarded, the only problem was not Google indexing for search engines, which did not affect anything the corporate market for software.

The first declarations of Adobe denigrated its image, claim mainly on the HTML5, which in the near future will replace everything.

I would really like that place the Adobe Flash Player and Adobe AIR as open-source. This would relieve their views on the future of Flex and HTML5. The SDK and VMs their would be the responsibility of the community, it would still make money with IDEs (Flash Builder and Flash PRO).

I don´t believe that companies will trust the same way in an open source SDK controlled by an institution, with VMs closed source being controlled by another company.

Att

Stefan Horochovec
Software Engineer
Blog: http://www.horochovec.com.br/
Twitter: http://twitter.com/horochovec

2011/11/23 Derrick Anderson <no.way.thi...@gmail.com>

[FlexMan]

I recently read a snippet from somebody who had just moved from a very
large HTML5/JS application to Flex and had this to say...

"We had built a HTML5/JS application that took us about a year with 60
developers working full time to complete. It was recreated with Flex
in about 4 months using five developers..."

Do the math...

60 developers * 2080hrs = 124,800 man hours

vs.

5 developers * 694hrs = 2773 man hours

just sayin'

On Nov 22, 11:26 am, Joel Hooks <j...@spoon.as> wrote:
> I think that it is important to consider the best technology to fit a given task, as Mike mentioned in his Flex Forward post (http://www.spoon.as/2011/flex-forward/) this past weekend.

[Ivan Ilijasic - ZgFlex Croatia]

Guys, here are some of my thoughts.

I work as Oracle application architect in major insurance company and
I use Flex for freelancing projects. We work with Oracle Forms which
are practicly deprecated for several years now. One of the differences
between Oracle and Adobe is that Oracle doesn't say out loud that some
technology will replace current solutions. They offer APEX, ADF or
some other options but people still use Oracle Forms. Why? Because
they still offer an excellent data centric development experience. Our
IT directors didn't wanted to use Flex because they think Flex
development takes more time. We also use ASP.NET for B2C solutions but
not for internal enteprise solutions. Are we planing to use ASP.NET
for enterprise apps? No chance.

There were some ideas to start using Sencha but this idea came up only
for small projects because no one believes it's possible to create an
application so complex like our current Oracle system. I personally
believe Visual Studio is one of the best IDEs and in the end that tool
defines ASP.NET as possible good choice. At this moment HTML5 hype is
built on excellent JS libraries but that doesn't mean it's gonna make
our life easier. It's still HTML. Do you honestly believe that several
new HTML tags can change everything? Developers we'll use new
technology features but only those for better user and developing
experience.

To cut the story short - why I believe we should use Flex?
- Enterprise development
- Complex data centric development - take a look at latest UEFA
Championship League app or latest MAX award winners
- multiplatform development - I believe that we'll either have to
choose native development or something like AIR. Native experience is
native experience, AIR is near-native experience and in this moment I
think things like PhoneGap are at the moment compromise options.

HTML5 offers multiplatform development but instead of depending on
Flash plugin, we'll depend on several browsers, different browser
versions, still not defined standard.

I believe Adobe decided to enter in this HTML5 story to show they are
not against future mainstream technology. HTML4.x is current
mainstream and that's perfectly normal. But in the end Flex is used
for a very good reason.

In the end, I think this shock gave us a good lesson. Time flies very
fast and in our business we should not depend only on one technology.
Personally I'll start exploring JS libraries and HTML5 but for some
current ideas I still plan to use Flex.

Cheers,
Ivan

On Nov 23, 7:48 pm, Adrian Więcek <adrian.wie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thats true. Things in our profession change in a blink. Today we are
> "Flex/Flash figthers", maybe in 5 years we will be "HTML5 fighters" or
> even "JavaFX fighters":)We have to inspect and adapt (like in Scrum)

> toi survive, constantly learn and improve, but I won't give up on Flex

[gspiridonov]

i don't really think it matters in the end... Adobe will support flash
as long as they want to.. if they are making money or not doesn't
really matter... The good thing is that if they do decide to drop it,
as like pretty much any of their other phased out techs, they'll
release it like they are releasing FLEX (like they released
Shockwave)... to be open source...

Until then I believe there is a lot of life left in the Flash player,
and AIR, with the advent of the 3D support... while this is mainly a
bright light for games on flash or air and isn't amazing news for FLEX
(since it is based for applications, not games).. It doesn't mean FLEX
is dead. Moving forward, the community will need to work toward
utilizing the new 3D functionality to improve the SDK, even for 2D
graphics, Stage3D can make quite the difference in speeds, and many of
the other proposed upgrades (threading, native extensions, etc) will
make FLEX plausible for even high data-load applications...

HTML 5 will eventually catch up, but it's nowhere near there yet.. and
by then, who can say where flash will be, and unless we all jump
ship.. where FLEX will be. We are in control of FLEX now, so the
failure of the language is in our hands... Adobe will have to support
FLEX as long as it is a popular and viable option.. as a community it
is our job to keep it the best option for RIA apps out there. As far
as I see it, Adobe didn't release FLEX because it was abandoning it,
it released it because of things like the spoon organization (which
most of the FLEX devs are members or at least supporters of) People
were already going to be working on their own version of the FLEX SDK,
one everyone could contribute to.. if thats the case, why would they
continue to evolve the SDK by themselves? In the end releasing it to
the community will result it more content and better code... They are
passing the buck sure... but I don't see it as a bad thing... just an
opportunity. Who would be upset with a flex-to-javascript compiler?
It's a great tool.. Like it has been said before... It is our job as
developers to use the tech that is best suited for the job... right
now it might be FLEX.. in 5 years it could be HTML5.. who knows what
it'll be in 10 years.. welcome to software design.

On Nov 23, 2:11 pm, Steve Mathews <happy...@gmail.com> wrote:
> So it seems that I am in the minority (at least on this list) that doesn't
> trust Adobe to continue support for the Flash Player in the long term. I
> am curious what others see as the motivation for Adobe to do this? What do
> they get from the player business wise? I don't believe they can make any
> money off of it, and probably pay a lot of money in engineering
> and licensing fees. For the time being they will continue with it because
> they can still sell Flash Pro and Flash Builder, but for how long?
>

> On Wed, Nov 23, 2011 at 12:05 PM, Michael Labriola <labri...@spoon.as>wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > I don't think we need to abandon Flash Player... I think we need a choice
> > to target the web browser, the flash player or AIR. (at least to start)
>

[Doug Reynolds]

I'm particularly interested in, and agree with Michael, that we need a choice in deployment targets. It is largely ironic that I've endeavored to be able to build multi-platform applications yet have done so with a dependency upon a single platform (run-time). I've also been keenly interested, and excited about what I have considered to be one of the reasons that Flex is the best technology choice...that I can, from a single code base, compile to multiple platforms/devices (e.g. various desktop OS and mobile platforms). However, that isn't so much separated any longer by benefits from other technologies. Consider languages such as haXe for compiling into multiple native languages or CoffeeScript for compiling to JavaScript, for example.
So what is the roadmap, what does it mean to be able to target the Web browser? Is it that we will have the ability to compile Flex into JavaScript...Jangaroo jooc compiler comes to mind?

[gspiridonov]

I also agree, I to came to FLEX and Flash after working with HTML and
having to constantly work around for individual browsers... I still
can't believe that HTML runs the way it does, with very little
guidlines on how the information should be displayed in a specific
browser... I honestly doubt that will ever happen, because it means
making the browsers that much more similar, which reduces the reason
to use one over the other. Flash requires a runtime, there is no other
way to have something display the same on all browsers except to take
the control away from the browsers to display something... If HTML
adopted a standard stucture on the behaviour of Browsers display...
HTML5 would become a stable, and useful option quite quickly, but it
isn't happening, and therefore HTML5 is constantly stumbling waiting
for a fix in the code, or a fix in the browser displaying the code...
That is the power of flash.. it works in all browsers, and if not...
it will work as an AIR app... it's either rely on a single runtime, or
one of 5-6 different runtimes of the browsers. that simple.