HVPS for nixie clock kit

[Michel]

I am a sort of working on a nixie clock kit and am wondering what kit
builders would prefer for the HVPS circuit. I am thinking of using a
standard 1363 module as it is cheap, easy to install and saves me
designing time. Would most kit builders appreciate this or would they
prefer to build the HVPS circuit from discrete parts?

Michel

[Dekatron42]

I'd prefer discrete parts as that will let me repair it more easily in the future. Using a proprietary part makes that harder.

 

Don't misunderstand me though, as I love the 1363 module using it myself for my experiments, but when it comes to something that I might need to repair I prefer discrete components that I can replace myself.

 

For me it is also important that it isn't noisy, doesn't disturb radio or TV or any other equipment in my home - especially if it is a clock that will be on around the clock.

 

/Martin

[AlexTsekenis]

Hi Michel,

Using a drop-in module is not a bad idea. The advantage is that it saves you time to focus on what would make your kit stand out - most likely not the power supply.
The disadvantages are that it might cost you a few extra cents in volume and it might go out of stock for an unknown period of time.

You can alleviate the supply security issue by designing-in a second or third footprint so you can accommodate multiple standard modules.

Not sure if I agree with you Martin on ease of repair. Chances are, once soldered on the board and put in the enclosure you will forget about it.
If it develops a fault and it is the power supply, you could kindly ask for one from Michel who will have a pile purchased at low cost. IMO that would be excellent customer support Michel. Maybe what you meant Martin is satisfaction from repair using components laying around?

You are making a good point on noise. If I had such a module I would fully characterise the ripple current through the ceramic output capacitor, but it certainly will contain harmonics within the audible range. Ceramic capacitors are piezoelectric, so they will vibrate much like a piezo speaker.

Another member of the forum had noise issues and we tried dipping the module in varnish. Slight difference, still noisy. Covering it with silicone took away most of the noise, if I remember correctly. These operations will require your time if you are making many kits...better to find modules that are, let's say, plug & play.

Regards,

Alex

[Michel]

Thanks Guys,

I agree it's a good idea to incorporate sockets for at least 2 types
of HV power supply modules, so I am thinking of using the 1363 for one
of these sockets and a simple (555 based) for the second socket. The
555 based HVPS is then discrete, easy to repair. Not sure about
audible noise though. The clock will be direct drive, so that is one
problem solved but the HVPS is another story. If the switching
frequency is above 20kHz, you wouldn't really hear the effects of a
ripple current through a ceramic capacitor, right?

Michel

On Apr 2, 10:31 am, AlexTsekenis <alextseke...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Michel,
>
> Using a drop-in module is not a bad idea. The advantage is that it saves
> you time to focus on what would make your kit stand out - most likely not
> the power supply.
> The disadvantages are that it might cost you a few extra cents in volume
> and it might go out of stock for an unknown period of time.
>
> You can alleviate the supply security issue by designing-in a second or
> third footprint so you can accommodate multiple standard modules.
>
> Not sure if I agree with you Martin on ease of repair. Chances are, once
> soldered on the board and put in the enclosure you will forget about it.
> If it develops a fault and it is the power supply, you could kindly ask for
> one from Michel who will have a pile purchased at low cost. IMO that would

> be excellent customer support Michel. Maybe what you meant Martin is *
> satisfaction* from repair using components laying around?

[Oscilloclock]

Hi Michel, I did not know about that module but it looks very interesting. How old is the module? I didn't spot the switching frequency mentioned in the PDF specs. It must be quite low for people to be able to actually hear various resonations in the audible range?

But using discrete components in a boost topology with a modern switcher and off-the-shelf inductor you should be able to get at least a 200kHz supply going. If not 1MHz. Not sure about the noise but if you're not loading it heavily and you have a good efficiency design, surely it could be minimal?

If I were building the kit I might actually want to wind my own inductor. You could furnish the core and wire as part of the kit?

You could also have the commercial HVPS module mounted on a plug-in daughter board, that way you could just redesign the daughter board around any module in the future and customers could replace it.

Finally you could also investigate a switched-capacitor power supply, I've not played with them yet. Wonder if there is a chip that can stand off enough voltage to at least drive a voltage doubler array to get the voltage you need?

Cheers
Aaron

[Michel van der Meij]

Hi Aaron,

I don't know for how long that module is around, quite a while I think (at least 1 year). There's also the 1364 which has the same performance but different type of board. It's hard to beat a price like that with your own design.

I ended up making a daughter board for the 555 HV supply with the option to use a 1363 module instead, see how it goes. With a bit of luck I will have the boards in about 1 or 2 weeks.

I think the switching frequency of the 1363 is quite high, shouldn't be audible. Not really my thing to wind my own coils, just grab a couple and see which one works best :-).

Switched capacitor all the way to 180V? Interesting idea, I wonder how efficient that would be. You could go 12 - 24 - 48 - 96 -192, it's only a few steps so it might actually work just fine.

Regards,
Michel

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[taylorjpt]

The 1363 and 1364 have been in production for about 5 years and are the same circuit in two different form factors.

There is a variant of the 1363, the 1363 RevB, that includes the app note 9003 modification for PFM mode supression (AKA "Noise") and are tested specifically for noise level.  These were designed for and used in the Kickstarter RAMOS nixie alarm clock and are available on request.  The 1364 with the modification can also be supplied.

jt

[chuck richards]

I have one of the 1363 models in a small clock that I built in 2010
to test that power supply. It is completely wonderful!

A great little thing if I ever saw one!!

Chuck

>
>
>---- Original Message ----
>From: j...@tayloredge.com
>To: neoni...@googlegroups.com
>Subject: Re: [neonixie-l] HVPS for nixie clock kit
>Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 13:51:18 -0700 (PDT)
>
>>The 1363 and 1364 have been in production for about 5 years and are
>the
>>same circuit in two different form factors.
>>
>>There is a variant of the 1363, the 1363 RevB, that includes the app
>note

>>9003 <http://ppl.ug/2sYmV9PWF1w/> modification for PFM mode

>supression (AKA
>>"Noise") and are tested specifically for noise level. These were
>designed
>>for and used in the Kickstarter RAMOS nixie alarm clock and are
>available
>>on request. The 1364 with the modification can also be supplied.
>>
>>jt
>>

>>--
>>You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>Groups "neonixie-l" group.
>>To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
>send an email to neonixie-l+...@googlegroups.com.
>>To post to this group, send an email to neoni...@googlegroups.com.
>>To view this discussion on the web, visit

>https://groups.google.com/d/msg/neonixie-l/-/jgBWiyIZOL8J.

>>For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>>
>>
>>

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