Nixie tube making: first glow lamp up and running

[jb-electronics]

Hi folks,

finally I got my first glow lamp working. It is the third try, therefore
I call it "GL-LS-3", short for glow lamp lab sample 3. See two pictures
here:

http://www.jb-electronics.de/tmp/gl-ls-3_1.jpg
http://www.jb-electronics.de/tmp/gl-ls-3_2.jpg

It consists of 9mm soda lime tubing and Dumet wire. The gas filling is
normal air at 9mbar. It ignites nicely at roughly 550V DC.

I used a simple propane torch for the glass work. Will switch to a
hand-held oxygen-propane torch in a few months though (when I have
enough time and money).

I will get my needle valve in two weeks or so, then I will be able to do
something with neon. Believe it or not: over two months lead time for a
silly needle valve... Anyway, I hope I will have the tube making content
prepared for my website by then. It is piling up, but there is still
much to do.

Best regards
Jens

[Michel]

Nice work Jens!

Would be a good combination, nixie tube clock with glow lamp colons or
something like that. It doesn't seem as bright as neon but that is
probably because it is a prototype.

Michel




On Sep 27, 7:10 am, jb-electronics <webmas...@jb-electronics.de>
wrote:

> Hi folks,
>
> finally I got my first glow lamp working. It is the third try, therefore
> I call it "GL-LS-3", short for glow lamp lab sample 3. See two pictures
> here:
>

> http://www.jb-electronics.de/tmp/gl-ls-3_1.jpghttp://www.jb-electronics.de/tmp/gl-ls-3_2.jpg

[jb-electronics]

Thanks Michel, I am planning to do all kinds of glow lamps before I get
a real torch, a real colon display would be nice.

Next, I will experiment with the aluminum oxide insulator. Sadly, it is
quite brittle, so if you shake the tube too hard it will break loose.
But I could use this insulator to prevent parts of wires to glow.

But I doubt that air is going to get any brighter, Argon would probably
yield much better results.

Jens

[Dalibor Farný]

Hello!

Nice, I am glad You are really working on it, so do I :-) I am spending all my free time making nixies, not much time to write about it on blog.. I am now in phase of building glass lathe again, the previous one was of bad design..

I made several stems from Simax (boro) glass using a lead-in-wires with tungsten middle sealing part. I tested them on helium leak detector and some of them are ok! :-) So now I need the lathe to make the envelopes and seal it..

http://dalibor.farny.cz/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/IMG_8088.jpg

I also did simple experiment with photo-etching of numbers from thin stainless steel sheet. It works, but the etching proces will have to be made more even and much much faster to prevent under-etching..

http://dalibor.farny.cz/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/20120804_120302.jpg

I also had to build new transformer spot welder, the capacitor discharge welder waswaste of time :-( the new one can be adjusted, tungsten-steel welds are now really easy :-)

Dalibor Farný
http://dalibor.farny.cz

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Dne 27.9.2012 5:17 "jb-electronics" <webm...@jb-electronics.de> napsal(a):

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[kay486]

Oh wow! Now thats some promissing progress. Cant wait to see some of your tubes! By the way, how big are those etched numbers?

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[jb-electronics]

Hi,

wow, that looks good. I am trying to make smaller steps because I am not so good with the mechanics. I will build small tubes out of test tubes first; a glass lathe is nice but for now it is too much for me.

Jens

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[Dalibor Farný]

Hello,

Thanks, I scanned numbers from z566m, so 30mm. I plan to start on 40mm numbers, and then go higher :-)

Have You received my email in czech yesterday?

Dalibor Farný
http://dalibor.farny.cz

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Dne 27.9.2012 12:37 "kay486" <luck...@gmail.com> napsal(a):

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/neonixie-l/-/bGqrSsvN7qkJ.

[Dalibor Farný]

Hello,

I also spent some time with glow tubes.. good practise. You mentioned that air is much dimmer than neon - argon is not better :-( but argon is inert and You could make glow tubes with much higher lifetime..

Go for oxy-gas torch, You will be surprised how thoroughly is possible to heat the seals :-) I bought a cheap ($25) acetylene-oxy torch, I am using it with gas-oxy, it works well!

Dalibor Farný
http://dalibor.farny.cz

sent from Samsung Galaxy Pad

Dne 27.9.2012 13:28 "jb-electronics" <webm...@jb-electronics.de> napsal(a):

[Alek onet]

Dalibor,
good job!

I just started preparing glass wafers with pumping pipe:

http://tubedevices.com/alek/pwl/splaszcz/splaszcz30.jpg

Yesterday I found devices for nixies (photolitography process for LC513 tubes). Unfortunatelly I have only "5" and "7" and "grid" templates.
I wonder about photosensitive emulssion. Any suggestions?


W dniu 2012-09-27 22:01, Dalibor Farný pisze:

[kay486]

In fact you have *2* too! Do it like those cheaty russians :D

[Alek onet]

W dniu 2012-09-27 22:01, Dalibor Farný pisze:

Hello,

[Alek onet]

Dear Dalibor,

good job!

I just started preparing glass wafers with pumping pipe:

http://tubedevices.com/alek/pwl/splaszcz/splaszcz30.jpg

Yesterday I found devices for nixies (photolitography process for polish LC513 tubes). Unfortunatelly I have only "5" and "7" and "grid" templates.

I wonder about photosensitive emulssion. Any suggestions?

[Alek onet]

[Dalibor Farný]

Nice!

I also want to try to make evacuation pipe in stem, but there will be too many wires, how do You solve the problem of wires on the place of the pipe? I cant see that detail on your photo..

Do You think that original industry made nixies used photo-etched numbers and anode mesh? Or it was stamped? You found a layouts or finished 5 and 7? This is a part of mosaic what I still miss :-)

Thanks!

Dalibor Farný
http://dalibor.farny.cz

sent from Samsung Galaxy Pad

Dne 27.9.2012 21:21 "Alek onet" <aleksand...@poczta.onet.pl> napsal(a):

[John Rehwinkel]

> I also want to try to make evacuation pipe in stem, but there will be too many wires, how do You solve the problem of wires on the place of the pipe? I cant see that detail on your photo..

I'm curious too - that's a lot of wires for a pinch seal.

> Do You think that original industry made nixies used photo-etched numbers and anode mesh? Or it was stamped? You found a layouts or finished 5 and 7? This is a part of mosaic what I still miss :-)

Instead of starting with existing nixies, I've been playing with generating cathode graphics using computer fonts. This one is just a test, I'd probably want to use
a lighter typeface for real nixie cathodes:

http://www.vitriol.com/images/tech/nixies/cathodes.gif

- John

[Dalibor Farný]

> Instead of starting with existing nixies, I've been playing with generating cathode graphics using computer fonts.  This one is just a test, I'd probably want to use
a lighter typeface for real nixie cathodes:

it is not so easy, the total surface of each digit should be constant to achieve constant current and constant brightness of each digit (else You will have to struggle with resistors on cathodes..). Bigger number = higher current.. And I also like the retro look of original digits ;-) Once I have working tube (as close as possible to original) I can play and change things inside..

Have You made something working with mentioned digit graphics?

Dalibor

2012/9/28 John Rehwinkel <jre...@mac.com>

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[kay486]

The thing is that im not aware of any font that would have as nice numbers as nixies have!

[John Rehwinkel]

> it is not so easy, the total surface of each digit should be constant to achieve constant current and constant brightness of each digit (else You will have to struggle with resistors on cathodes..). Bigger number = higher current..

While this is true, it isn't an absolute. Existing nixies have different currents for different digits (particularlay "1"). Since they're more-or-less constant
voltage devices, the anode resistor tends to even out the different current draws. Running nixies from higher voltages with larger anode resistors
helps with this (at the cost of efficiency). Some designs actually use current regulation instead of anode resistors, and these will tend to overdrive
the smaller digits slightly.

That said, it would be simple enough to write code to adjust the digit stroke thicknesses to achieve matching total areas. Note that in some nixies,
the "1" digit is made with a double stroke to help with this.

> And I also like the retro look of original digits ;-)

That is a perfectly valid reason. If I were going to clone a nixie, I'd choose the CD-66 with its particularly nice digit shapes.

However, if I'm making my own nixies, I'd be interested in making them visibly distinct from existing ones. If I want a CD-66, I
can just go buy one (unless I want a CD-66 with 30mm digits). If I want a nixie with Böcklin or Klingon digits, I'll have to make
my own.

There's also a mechanical consideration - thicker digits will be more rigid and stable, and should survive longer. However,
this thickness can be in material thickness or stroke width.

> Once I have working tube (as close as possible to original) I can play and change things inside..

Absolutely. Coming up with digit shapes is likely not the most difficult problem in making nixies.

> Have You made something working with mentioned digit graphics?

Not as of yet. My original plan was to photoetch them, but I just heard from someone who's making custom variable
capacitor plates, and has access to a water jet cutter.

I've been pricing the little ceramic rings used as insulating digit separators, and they're expensive, so now I'm thinking
of glass and mica as alternatives.

- John

[kay486]

Ah i see, are you going to break any tubes for the bigger digits (because i hope not!)? Did you get my reply? :D

[jb-electronics]

Hi folks,

just a small follow-up on my first glow lamp post: I have managed to
make a pinch seal using the 9mm tubing with four electrodes. The next
aim is five.

It is quite easy: all you need is very small glass tubing. Just stretch
9mm tubing, and if you do it fast enough (and carefully, of course) you
get very nice small tubes with diameters below 1mm. Then I just cut
these to pieces of 20mm and insert a Dumet wire each and heat it up with
a small handheld torch. Then I align four of these wires and use a small
portion of glass to glue them together. Then comes the pinching process
which is not so critical if you have ensured all the four wires stick
together good. Will document that on my website soon.

So now I have a glow lamp with four more or less parallel wires... Could
you call that a Nixie tube? ;-)

Jens

[Alek onet]

"accelerated" by Dalibor I tried my photolitography devices. It's very
good, even using first time! It isn't simple technology but I'm
very glad. In the second picture you have anode of nixie tube prepared
from template of polish tube type LC513. Unfortunatelly I had old
photosensitive lacquer and thick metal plate (0.2 mm).

www.tubedevices.com/alek/pwl/lc1d/fotolito.jpg
www.tubedevices.com/alek/pwl/lc1d/fotolito1.jpg

Best regards
Alek

>> it is not so easy, the total surface of each digit should be constant to achieve constant current and constant brightness of each digit (else You will have to struggle with resistors on cathodes..). Bigger number = higher current..
> While this is true, it isn't an absolute. Existing nixies have different currents for different digits (particularlay "1"). Since they're more-or-less constant
> voltage devices, the anode resistor tends to even out the different current draws. Running nixies from higher voltages with larger anode resistors
> helps with this (at the cost of efficiency). Some designs actually use current regulation instead of anode resistors, and these will tend to overdrive
> the smaller digits slightly.
>
> That said, it would be simple enough to write code to adjust the digit stroke thicknesses to achieve matching total areas. Note that in some nixies,
> the "1" digit is made with a double stroke to help with this.
>
>> And I also like the retro look of original digits ;-)
> That is a perfectly valid reason. If I were going to clone a nixie, I'd choose the CD-66 with its particularly nice digit shapes.
>
> However, if I'm making my own nixies, I'd be interested in making them visibly distinct from existing ones. If I want a CD-66, I

> can just go buy one (unless I want a CD-66 with 30mm digits). If I want a nixie with B�cklin or Klingon digits, I'll have to make

[jb-electronics]

Here are the pictures:

http://www.jb-electronics.de/tmp/gl-ls-6_1.jpg
http://www.jb-electronics.de/tmp/gl-ls-6_2.jpg

Jens

[kay486]

Oh whoah, it looks rather nice! Could you maybe post some bigger images next time? You can hardly see any details in the first picture.

On Friday, 28 September 2012 22:06:53 UTC+1, Aleksander Zawada wrote:

"accelerated" by Dalibor I tried my photolitography devices. It's very
good, even using first time! It isn't simple technology but I'm
very glad. In the second picture you have anode of nixie tube prepared
from template of polish tube type LC513. Unfortunatelly I had old
photosensitive lacquer and thick metal plate (0.2 mm).

www.tubedevices.com/alek/pwl/lc1d/fotolito.jpg
www.tubedevices.com/alek/pwl/lc1d/fotolito1.jpg

Best regards
Alek

>> it is not so easy, the total surface of each digit should be constant to achieve constant current and constant brightness of each digit (else You will have to struggle with resistors on cathodes..). Bigger number = higher current..
> While this is true, it isn't an absolute.  Existing nixies have different currents for different digits (particularlay "1").  Since they're more-or-less constant
> voltage devices, the anode resistor tends to even out the different current draws.  Running nixies from higher voltages with larger anode resistors
> helps with this (at the cost of efficiency).  Some designs actually use current regulation instead of anode resistors, and these will tend to overdrive
> the smaller digits slightly.
>
> That said, it would be simple enough to write code to adjust the digit stroke thicknesses to achieve matching total areas.  Note that in some nixies,
> the "1" digit is made with a double stroke to help with this.
>
>> And I also like the retro look of original digits ;-)
> That is a perfectly valid reason.  If I were going to clone a nixie, I'd choose the CD-66 with its particularly nice digit shapes.
>
> However, if I'm making my own nixies, I'd be interested in making them visibly distinct from existing ones.  If I want a CD-66, I

> can just go buy one (unless I want a CD-66 with 30mm digits).  If I want a nixie with B�cklin or Klingon digits, I'll have to make

[Dalibor Farný]

Wooow!

Alek, this is really outstanding result! Could I ask You what etching chemical did You use? FeCl3? And how did You agitated the etching process, I just immersed the metal into etching solution.. some kind of spray tank is the best way.. did You heat the etching solution?

So the photolitography devices are original pieces? Industry made nixie's metal parts were made using this?

I will send You 0.1mm stanless steel sheet to do another test if You want, just send me your address to my email.

Could You please send a photo of assembled device?

Sorry for so many demands :-)

Dalibor Farný
http://dalibor.farny.cz

sent from Samsung Galaxy Pad

Dne 28.9.2012 22:06 "Alek onet" <aleksand...@poczta.onet.pl> napsal(a):

"accelerated" by Dalibor I tried my photolitography devices. It's very good, even using first time! It isn't simple technology but I'm
very glad. In the second picture you have anode of nixie tube prepared from template of polish tube type LC513. Unfortunatelly I had old
photosensitive lacquer and thick metal plate (0.2 mm).

www.tubedevices.com/alek/pwl/lc1d/fotolito.jpg
www.tubedevices.com/alek/pwl/lc1d/fotolito1.jpg

Best regards
Alek

it is not so easy, the total surface of each digit should be constant to achieve constant current and constant brightness of each digit (else You will have to struggle with resistors on cathodes..). Bigger number = higher current..

While this is true, it isn't an absolute.  Existing nixies have different currents for different digits (particularlay "1").  Since they're more-or-less constant
voltage devices, the anode resistor tends to even out the different current draws.  Running nixies from higher voltages with larger anode resistors
helps with this (at the cost of efficiency).  Some designs actually use current regulation instead of anode resistors, and these will tend to overdrive
the smaller digits slightly.

That said, it would be simple enough to write code to adjust the digit stroke thicknesses to achieve matching total areas.  Note that in some nixies,
the "1" digit is made with a double stroke to help with this.

And I also like the retro look of original digits ;-)

That is a perfectly valid reason.  If I were going to clone a nixie, I'd choose the CD-66 with its particularly nice digit shapes.

However, if I'm making my own nixies, I'd be interested in making them visibly distinct from existing ones.  If I want a CD-66, I

can just go buy one (unless I want a CD-66 with 30mm digits).  If I want a nixie with Böcklin or Klingon digits, I'll have to make

my own.

There's also a mechanical consideration - thicker digits will be more rigid and stable, and should survive longer.  However,
this thickness can be in material thickness or stroke width.

Once I have working tube (as close as possible to original) I can play and change things inside..

Absolutely.  Coming up with digit shapes is likely not the most difficult problem in making nixies.

Have You made something working with mentioned digit graphics?

Not as of yet.  My original plan was to photoetch them, but I just heard from someone who's making custom variable
capacitor plates, and has access to a water jet cutter.

I've been pricing the little ceramic rings used as insulating digit separators, and they're expensive, so now I'm thinking
of glass and mica as alternatives.

- John

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[Alek onet]

Dear Dalibor,

Photolitography devices are original pieces. It was used for polish industrial nixies, but rather for laboratory scale. When prototypes were good, manufacturing go to Dolam, Wroclaw. I suppose that there were similiar devices, but bigger.
I used hydrochloric acid with perhydrol H2O2 and pure water. I'm going to try with molybdenum foil and cupric foil for another parts, not for nixies.

 I'm very tired now. That's why I must go to sleep. I promise you answer good as quick as possible.

Alek

W dniu 2012-09-29 09:56, Dalibor Farný pisze:

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[Dalibor Farny]

Hello Alek,

Thanks for info!

Take your time,

Dalibor Farny
http://dalibor.farny.cz

Sent from my HTC

---

From: Alek onet <aleksand...@poczta.onet.pl>
Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2012 11:48
To: neoni...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Nixie tube making: first glow lamp up and running

[dylan roelofs]

Hey again John,
    Just get some little 'seed' beads from the bead store for spacers.
     If you've got ultrasound, I recommend it- there can be a little refractory sludge in 'em from the production.
     I made a few 'crackle' tubes using black seed beads and neon about 10 years back...really cool effect.

    -Dylan

[dylan roelofs]

   Jens-
      Great! Keep going!
      Congratulations on getting a good seal and vacuum; very few people get that far-
    
   -Dylan

[Dalibor Farný]

Hello Dylan,

Do You have any tips for seed beads thin enough? It should be 1mm, I found some 2mm, but this would make a potencial in the nixie different, so the breakdown voltage could be different for each digit. I read in a "Weston:cold cathode glow discharge tubes" that it should be 1mm.

As John wrote, I found a supplier in Germany with nice 1mm alumina spacers, but one piece would cost around 3 EUR :-) little expensive..

Dalibor Farný
http://dalibor.farny.cz

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Dne 30.9.2012 4:33 "dylan roelofs" <dokto...@gmail.com> napsal(a):

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[Dalibor Farný]

> However, if I'm making my own nixies, I'd be interested in making them visibly distinct from existing ones.  If I want a CD-66, I
> can just go buy one (unless I want a CD-66 with 30mm digits).  If I want a nixie with Böcklin or Klingon digits, I'll have to make
> my own.

Thats it, I plan (faaar far future :-) to come up with a small series of nixie tubes, once this will be possible I want them to be unique, so I am considering also changing the digits.. I had thought about some art-deco look, I love that :-)

>
> There's also a mechanical consideration - thicker digits will be more rigid and stable, and should survive longer.  However,
> this thickness can be in material thickness or stroke width.

This is one thing I am afraid of - bending or the thin digits, mine are only 0.4mm thick, so it is not easy to make them flat. More rigid digits would be better..

>
> > Once I have working tube (as close as possible to original) I can play and change things inside..
>
> Absolutely.  Coming up with digit shapes is likely not the most difficult problem in making nixies.
>
> > Have You made something working with mentioned digit graphics?
>
> Not as of yet.  My original plan was to photoetch them, but I just heard from someone who's making custom variable
> capacitor plates, and has access to a water jet cutter.
>
> I've been pricing the little ceramic rings used as insulating digit separators, and they're expensive, so now I'm thinking
> of glass and mica as alternatives.
>
> - John
>

[John Rehwinkel]

> Just get some little 'seed' beads from the bead store for spacers.

Ooh, good idea!

> If you've got ultrasound, I recommend it- there can be a little refractory sludge in 'em from the production.
> I made a few 'crackle' tubes using black seed beads and neon about 10 years back...really cool effect.

I made a crackle tube with glass beads a while back too - they were a little larger than the "seed" beads, but
they were clear, and worked reasonably well. I tried it with an electronic transformer, but didn't get the
crackle effect - I eventually went to a 30mA magnetic one, which did the trick.

- John