Question on XC18 trigger tubes

[Dylan Distasio]

Hi all-

I recently picked up some XC18 trigger tubes in the hope of eventually building a trigger tube clock inspired by Grahame's work http://www.neonixie.com/trigger-tube-clock/Trigger_Clock.pdf.

I have reviewed some of the basic trigger tube circuits out there, but was hoping someone with experience using trigger tubes could provide some additional guidance.

I am interested in building a simple ring counter circuit on a breadboard but wasn't sure what resistor / capacitor values to use, and an input for the trigger.  I will probably eventually use the mains frequency in the clock, but am open to suggestions on another source for testing.  Any help on the simplest possible ring counter circuit possible with these tubes and other tips would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Dylan

[Grahame Marsh]

Dylan,

The main design flaw with the published trigger tube clock is the change
of supply voltage (I frigged the anode resistor to compensate). This
does effect the pulse carry timing considerably. The main problem
with the XC18 is it requires light to trigger reliably - leave the clock
in a dark room and one or more rings will have failed by the morning.
Tubes with a keep alive electrode like the Z700U will operate in
complete darkness. My own XC18 clock is now just a demonstration clock
that I fire up just to show it off as and when.

I have a design for a second XC18 clock with schematics and layouts done
in Eagle which I can email to you if you want to see them? This will
give you a (all valve) design of a stabilised PSU and a 50 (or 60) Hz to
1 Hz divider using a two stage phantasmagorical divider which has a
pulse shaper at the end to drive a XC18.

For a more back-to-basics on trigger tube circuit design then download
this book by Neale (86MB) chapter 5 in particular:

http://www.sgitheach.org.uk/dmneale.pdf

As it goes through the design process for trigger tubes (it uses the
Z700U in the worked example).

As a general comment to anyone on the list it is an ebook worth having IMHO.

Building dividers on a breadboard is very easy and work well. The first
divider I built was a two tube, divide by two, and then I added several
more stages just to watch it count. I used a simple neon relaxtion
oscillator to provide a slow enough tick that the dividers could be seen
to be working rather than just using a 'scope.

There are other XC18 clocks out there but all have the same darkness
problem so must be kept lit. A few UV leds seem to work fine but the
holy grail of an all valve clock has perhaps then been lost.

The clock web page now lives on my own website as well

http://www.sgitheach.org.uk/nixie3.html

Happy to correspond, and I'm sure others will have comments as well.

Cheers Grahame

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[Dylan Distasio]

Thanks for the info and comments, Grahame.  As an aside, I love your clock, and your other interesting projects!

I'll take a look at the book.  If you wouldn't mind emailing me the design, that would be great also.

I will definitely take you up on your offer for continued correspondence as I move forward.

Best,

Dylan

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[Nick]

On Wednesday, 9 May 2012 19:16:47 UTC+1, Sgitheach wrote:

For a more back-to-basics on trigger tube circuit design then download
this book by Neale (86MB) chapter 5 in particular:

http://www.sgitheach.org.uk/dmneale.pdf

 

Does anyone have any tools that would speed splitting this up so that each page appears on its own page rather than as a two-page image?

Thanks

Nick 

[Dekatron42]

I do not have "one" tool but I use ABBYY OCR software to import the
PDF, then save it as images, I then use Irfanview to split the pages
in batch job (also doing some cropping and gamma correction at the
same time if necessary), then I combine them with pdfFactory PRO by
printing them.

/Martin

[Grahame Marsh]

Nick

I do have this book as a paper original as well as this PDF.  I don't think I scanned it as I can't find any original scanned page sheets on my PC. So I can't help other than do some of the splitting grunt if help is needed.

Grahame

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[Tidak Ada]

I have the intention to do, but a lack on time...I am not a munch ;-).

 

By the way does somebody have the missing pages of the Dance book (pp. 310 thru 375) ?  Also this book I want to rearrange and correct. I hate oblique pages !

 

Shouldn't this be a work to do by a group, each doing a bunch of pages following a established line ? If so, I will join thw party...

 

eric

---

From: neoni...@googlegroups.com [mailto:neoni...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Grahame Marsh
Sent: donderdag 10 mei 2012 12:32
To: neoni...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [neonixie-l] Question on XC18 trigger tubes

[Tidak Ada]

PDF is easy imported by PhotoShop. The imported bitmap is easily to correct,
crop and improve by PhotoShop.
Best is to set all text pages to line art bitmaps. Pages with photo's better
to gray scale. Doing this reduces the size of the pdf considerable.
I use 600ppi for the line arts and 300ppi for the gray scales.
Using 'Gaussian unsharpness' --> 'contras't --> 'Unsharp mask' --> 'level'
to adapt to the line art bitmap works fine.

If needed, I will write a protocol of handlings. May be somebody is able to
convert that to a PhotoShop macro ??

eric

-----Original Message-----
From: neoni...@googlegroups.com [mailto:neoni...@googlegroups.com] On

[Grahame Marsh]

Eric

I assume you mean Electronic Counting Circuits - I have not scanned chapters 11 - Nuclear and 12 - Further applications, which covers your page range but am willing to do so if no one else has yet.  I have scanned 4 chapters: 1 - Introduction, 3 - Single cathode, 4 - Multi cathode, 5 - E1T so far.  The book format is not good for scanning.

For the record I have 3 Dance Books on paper-

Electronic Counting Circuits
Cold Cathode Tubes
Photoelectronic Devices

Grahame

[Tidak Ada]

Graham,

 

Yes it is the book  Electronic Counting Tubes. I wasn't aware there where more books of his hands

 

I should be glad to complete the book. Also being nosy to what he tells about nuclear and the further applications.

 

What is the content of the book Cold Cathode Tubes ?  Is it interesting enough to have a copy?

There was a book on Cold Cathode Tubes on eBay for short, but was sold for a price, I cannot afford myself...

 

eric

---

From: neoni...@googlegroups.com [mailto:neoni...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Grahame Marsh

Sent: donderdag 10 mei 2012 14:20

[Dekatron42]

Cold Cathode Tubes can be downloaded from here: http://archive.org/details/ColdCathodeTubes

/Martin

On 10 Maj, 14:37, "Tidak Ada" <offl...@zeelandnet.nl> wrote:
> Graham,
>
> Yes it is the book  Electronic Counting Tubes. I wasn't aware there where
> more books of his hands
>
> I should be glad to complete the book. Also being nosy to what he tells
> about nuclear and the further applications.
>
> What is the content of the book Cold Cathode Tubes ?  Is it interesting
> enough to have a copy?
> There was a book on Cold Cathode Tubes on eBay for short, but was sold for a
> price, I cannot afford myself...
>
> eric
>
>   _____
>

> From: neoni...@googlegroups.com [mailto:neoni...@googlegroups.com] On
> Behalf Of Grahame Marsh
> Sent: donderdag 10 mei 2012 12:32
> To: neoni...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: [neonixie-l] Question on XC18 trigger tubes
>
> Nick
>
> I do have this book as a paper original as well as this PDF.  I don't think
> I scanned it as I can't find any original scanned page sheets on my PC. So I
> can't help other than do some of the splitting grunt if help is needed.
>
> Grahame
>
> On 10/05/2012 10:06, Nick wrote:
>
> On Wednesday, 9 May 2012 19:16:47 UTC+1, Sgitheach wrote:
>
> For a more back-to-basics on trigger tube circuit design then download
> this book by Neale (86MB) chapter 5 in particular:
>

> http://www.sgitheach.org.uk/<http://www.sgitheach.org.uk/dmneale.pdf>

> dmneale.pdf
>
> Does anyone have any tools that would speed splitting this up so that each
> page appears on its own page rather than as a two-page image?
>
> Thanks
>
> Nick
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>
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[Tidak Ada]

But still not the pages above 121 !! (except the index)

Anybody a pdf copy of this book:

Applications of Neon Lamps and Gas Discharge Tubes
by Edward Bauman,
Carlton Press,
ASIN: B0007ECU7A

eric

-----Original Message-----
From: neoni...@googlegroups.com [mailto:neoni...@googlegroups.com] On

Behalf Of Dekatron42
Sent: donderdag 10 mei 2012 14:44
To: neonixie-l

[Grahame Marsh]

Eric

Dance Cold Cathode Tubes ends with the last page of the index on page
125 so the pdf corresponds to the paper copy I have. Or have I
misunderstood your comment?

If a book swap is in progress, I also have (as pdf)

GE Glow Lamp Manual 2nd Ed Dougherty et al

Using and understanding miniature neon lamps William G Miller

Grahame

[kay486]

Hi there, thee is really a lot of HV PSUs , there is this guy who is also aiming to try to make some homemade nixies. Check out his blog, there is post about PSU right at the top http://dalibor.farny.cz/

[Tidak Ada]

Oops,

That's my fault ! I mixed up 'Cold Cathode Tubes' and 'Electronic Counting
Circuits' !!

Thanks for your correction.

[petehand]

I built an XC18 clock based on Graham's design and can confirm,
disappointingly, it won't work in the dark. I heard from an old friend
of my father's, who used to work for Hivac, that these tubes were made
with a small amount of radioactive material to assist with
ionization, and presumably it's had enough half lives by now to be
ineffective.

If anyone is interested, I will email them a copy of my schematics,
which are closely similar to Graham's. I also have one spare PCB - I
did the whole thing (less the power supply) on a single board ten
inches by seven.

Pete Hand

On May 9, 12:10 pm, Dylan Distasio <interz...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks for the info and comments, Grahame.  As an aside, I love your clock,
> and your other interesting projects!
>
> I'll take a look at the book.  If you wouldn't mind emailing me the design,
> that would be great also.
>
> I will definitely take you up on your offer for continued correspondence as
> I move forward.
>
> Best,
> Dylan
>
> On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 2:16 PM, Grahame Marsh

> <grahame.ma...@googlemail.com>wrote:

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Dylan,
>
> > The main design flaw with the published trigger tube clock is the change
> > of supply voltage (I frigged the anode resistor to compensate). This does
> > effect the pulse carry timing considerably.    The main problem with the
> > XC18 is it requires light to trigger reliably - leave the clock in a dark
> > room and one or more rings will have failed by the morning.  Tubes with a
> > keep alive electrode like the Z700U will operate in complete darkness.  My
> > own XC18 clock is now just a demonstration clock that I fire up just to
> > show it off as and when.
>
> > I have a design for a second XC18 clock with schematics and layouts done
> > in Eagle which I can email to you if you want to see them?  This will give
> > you a (all valve) design of a stabilised PSU and a 50 (or 60) Hz to 1 Hz
> > divider using a two stage phantasmagorical divider which has a pulse shaper
> > at the end to drive a XC18.
>
> > For a more back-to-basics on trigger tube circuit design then download
> > this book by Neale (86MB) chapter 5 in particular:
>

> >http://www.sgitheach.org.uk/**dmneale.pdf<http://www.sgitheach.org.uk/dmneale.pdf>

>
> > As it goes through the design process for trigger tubes (it uses the Z700U
> > in the worked example).
>
> > As a general comment to anyone on the list it is an ebook worth having
> > IMHO.
>
> > Building dividers on a breadboard is very easy and work well.  The first
> > divider I built was a two tube, divide by two, and then I added several
> > more stages just to watch it count.  I used a simple neon relaxtion
> > oscillator to provide a slow enough tick that the dividers could be seen to
> > be working rather than just using a 'scope.
>
> > There are other XC18 clocks out there but all have the same darkness
> > problem so must be kept lit. A few UV leds seem to work fine but the holy
> > grail of an all valve clock has perhaps then been lost.
>
> > The clock web page now lives on my own website as well
>

> >http://www.sgitheach.org.uk/**nixie3.html<http://www.sgitheach.org.uk/nixie3.html>

>
> > Happy to correspond, and I'm sure others will have comments as well.
>
> > Cheers Grahame
>
> > On 09/05/2012 18:32, Dylan Distasio wrote:
>
> >> Hi all-
>
> >> I recently picked up some XC18 trigger tubes in the hope of eventually
> >> building a trigger tube clock inspired by Grahame's work

> >>http://www.neonixie.com/**trigger-tube-clock/Trigger_**Clock.pdf<http://www.neonixie.com/trigger-tube-clock/Trigger_Clock.pdf>
> >> .

>
> >> I have reviewed some of the basic trigger tube circuits out there, but
> >> was hoping someone with experience using trigger tubes could provide some
> >> additional guidance.
>
> >> I am interested in building a simple ring counter circuit on a breadboard
> >> but wasn't sure what resistor / capacitor values to use, and an input for
> >> the trigger.  I will probably eventually use the mains frequency in the
> >> clock, but am open to suggestions on another source for testing.  Any help
> >> on the simplest possible ring counter circuit possible with these tubes and
> >> other tips would be greatly appreciated.
>
> >> Thanks,
> >> Dylan
> >> --
> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> >> "neonixie-l" group.
> >> To post to this group, send an email to neoni...@googlegroups.com.

> >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to neonixie-l+unsubscribe@**
> >> googlegroups.com <neonixie-l%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>.
> >> For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/**
> >> group/neonixie-l?hl=en-GB<http://groups.google.com/group/neonixie-l?hl=en-GB>
> >> .

>
> > --
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> > group/neonixie-l?hl=en-GB<http://groups.google.com/group/neonixie-l?hl=en-GB>
> > .

[Nick]

Pete,

I'm definitely interested...

Thanks

Nick

[NoCampersFluffy]

Pete

I'd appreciate a copy of your schematics and board layout.  I have a couple of hundred XC18s in the cupboard that I want to turn into a "reliable" clock and would be interested to see you layout.

Kind regards
Michael

> >> googlegroups.com <neonixie-l%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com>.

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> >> .
>
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