Currently I see no future in MLO

[Darius]

I've checked a MLO roadmap and I must say I don't see a good future for MLO . MLO is doing a big mistake: no web app or API for MLO cloud, there is even no basic support for web planned . Now MLO is just not a true multi OS device.

I've have 3 new machines and on every of them I cannot use MLO. One is Raspberry PI, one is laptop with Ubuntu, one is VMware with Lubuntu for my TV ( I have Windows PC and Galaxy  note which I am using fine with MLO) . I know, this is Linux and Linux is not supported, but the problem is bigger:

Now we have Windows RT released. How to use MLO?

As in my example I have some machines with Linux, how to use MLO?

If windows 8 fails, and some people will turn to Mac/Linux, what to do?

If I bought chrome book, how to use MLO?

In short I don't think the developement for all the OS will be fast enough without any web app...

[Michael Emerald, CFA]

The “other side” (me) says that of all the PIM managers I’ve used, this one is foolproof, useful, rock solid, and increases productivity enormously.  I sense that the product will evolve with your own needs below over time.  Then again, as a business consultant I’d ask whether catering to the lesser-used systems is a worthwhile investment of programming resources.

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[Trish Putnam]

Valid point, Michael, and I agree that the development effort doesn't need to support all of the possible systems out there directly.  However, go back to Darius's point that there's no web interface.  It's not ideal, but it would alleviate the pain if there were SOME way to make use of MLO from devices that aren't currently supported, such as a way to access your cloud-living data via a web-based UI.  At this point, if your device isn't supported you don't have an option to work around it. 

 

A web-based UI for MLO cloud would certainly provide at least basic crossplatform support for any internet-connected device, which would be a decent ROI for a single development effort vs. trying to guess which platforms should be supported quickly.

[Petr Urbanec]

don't think the future is so bad. You can look at another product. For example, many users love the Omnifocus. Is there any web or android app? Do they plan syncing with Exchange? Can you buy it as a windows port? No! Nevertheless there are many people who spend money for it.

I like MLO and I am loooking forward to new version.

[Mark Levison]

Just as counterpoint to the original post. I recently became a Mac user and am struggling with the Wine Implementation on the Mac to get MLO to work. Yes I would love a Mac port, I would even like a Web Interface but these may not be the best uses of Andrey's money. As to Windows 8/RT I wouldn't count Microsoft down by a long shot.

Cheers
Mark

[Gene Horodecki]

On the other hand, some of us don't like putting our personal information on public servers and find it refreshing that MLO is bucking the trend and allowing us to sync on our own personal systems. When I got my first ipod touch I was very disillusioned that there were no apps that would simply sync with a pc. I was shocked to have this brand new modern device yet I wanted it to behave more like my old palm pilot.

--

[lrando]

BRAVO. Instead of six or more development branches, MLO could have just two, both web based, one for pc and one for mobile.

I'm glad to see someone else point this out. I brought this up within the past year in this forum, and subsequently rely more on toodledo for all my personal stuff, and MLO to just simply augment Microsoft OneNote for tracking my workflow in the office. 

If MLO didn't do heirarchical organization the way it does, I wouldn't use it at all. 

Something else you may not have run across is that MLO uses godaddy for some of their services which is blocked by our corporate policies and may be blocked by yours too. 

There is an android app in google play that works great but has no pc equivalent, but then thats where you use toodledo's web interface. Its called ULTIMATE TO-DO LIST. It looks ugly but thats because it uses a black background to conserve the battery.

Michael Linenberger has an article on his blog about mobile task management and compensating for device OS platform differences.

http://masteryourworkday.com/what-tasks-server-are-you-using

[robisme]

Toodledo is far far far away from the ergonomic of MLO.

Try to move a bulk of tasks, use keyboard shortcuts, rapid task entry, change the due date or context of 15 tasks together, powerfully filter you viex upon your own criterias, etc.

[westpo...@yahoo.com]

Seconded. We use online only for shared documents. I would never want MLO on the cloud. Plus, that would typically incur a monthly fee. Ouch! One can follow the success of Pocket Informant, which has an online platform, to discern the market interest in such a platform over time.

Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

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From: Gene Horodecki <mali...@gmail.com>

Sender: mylifeo...@googlegroups.com

Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 16:50:37 -0600

To: <mylifeo...@googlegroups.com>

ReplyTo: mylifeo...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [MLO] Currently I see no future in MLO

[Richard Collings]

Yup – agree. Absolutely no point in supporting platforms that have a tiny fraction of the market.   And in terms of my situation, I can’t see where I would use a web based interface as I am either working at my computer or I have my Smartphone with me.

 

I think Andrey obviously needs to keep an eye on the market and where a platform is taking off in volume, then it probably makes sense to support that but no point in spending valuable developer effort on platforms where either the market is small; or there is no business case.

 

Richard

[Richard Collings]

You raise some interesting points about collaboration/team use using MLO which by co-incidence I was also thinking about today.   The conclusion that I came to was that MLO is very much a personal organisational tool that individuals use to manage (and ideally plan) their day to day/hour by hour work.   

 

I think it would be very difficult to turn it into a tool in which teams shared a single task hierarchy.   

 

I think other tools (web based) are better suited to manage teams and that’s the way it should remain.

 

As far as I am aware there are no plans to turn it into a team/corporate tool (but I have no insight here – beyond what Andrey posts).

 

Would be interested in other people’s views.

 

Richard

 

 

 

From: mylifeo...@googlegroups.com [mailto:mylifeo...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of motorwayne
Sent: 07 November 2012 8:01 PM
To: mylifeo...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [MLO] Re: Currently I see no future in MLO

 

IMHO as a project manager with 20+ years of experience using both manual and electronic planning tools, there are definitely some considerations going forward for any business wanting to manage themselves.

 

• Can the tool provide Hierarchical organization of projects? (if needed, they are not always needed)
• Can the projects be shared? (if necessary)
• Is it eco-system specific? ( i.e.. do I have to tie my entire business and my people to a specific platform ( i.e. windows, Mac, Android etc to use the product)
• Will the platform (OS), and the product (software), keep up together? (It is incredibly costly to change systems. The cost is usually in man hours to re-train and then have people screw around trying to figure it out or make it work. Man hours are usually the most expensive item)
• What platform helps my people be productive? (Often people struggle with systems)
• What platforms will likely be productive in the future? (Obvious one here is "Web interfaces", though both Mac desktop and Windows desktops will remain strong into the future also)
• Will a web interface give all the complexity we require? Does it need to?

At present as hardware and software change and merge, we're seeing a shift to multiple platforms (OS) being required inside a single business. This can be driven simply by the users desire and or the companies quest to satisfy good employees. Companies want to offer a diverse choice to help their people be productive and happy an retained. The amount of people "working away from the office" is increasing rapidly and this requires either sophisticated VPN or similar tech that someone has to manage (cost to business), or a WEB interface which is far easier for the employee to get on, stay in touch and be productive.

 

I would say that MLO has to offer some sort of supplemental WEB interface in the future, it just has to, there is no getting around it.

 

Cheers

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[Gene Horodecki]

Web based services are the technical junk food of the 21st century. It is so enticing to embrace them but look at the articles popping up about cyberspying, and we are just seeing the tip of the iceberg. Your company's intellectual property deserves protection which can only come from relentless patching, audit trails, and a guarantee to you the consumer that the information you put in that service is and will always remain yours. There also needs to be real penalties when security is breached that are in line with damages caused and the service should be able to demonstrate monthly that it has not yet occurred. All these things can easily double or triple cost.

If all these things are not in place then you are really just putting your property out there on the hope that you are anonymous enough so as not to attract the wrong kind of attention. My company has very strict rules about using in house services only and I am absolutely sure many more will follow.

Is that a hornets nest that MLO wants?

[m...@grantsmiths.org]

My own personal view is that I would not like to see MLO try to compete in the area of full scale project management tools. There are all sorts of missing functionality that would need to be implemented to be competitive, including critical path analysis, earned value analysis, Pert and Gantt charts, resource loading, milestone tracking and eventually, inevitably, time reporting and client billing.

 

I believe that MLO is an industry leading product in personal task management and I would like to see it keep that focus rather than transforming into an inferior player in the project management market. I would like to see MLO provide more support for the ways that an individual person’s tasks interact with other people’s tasks, including

-          The ability to tell people about a task (with any subtasks) by creating a printable summary and/or export to calendar

-          The ability to assign a task (with any subtasks) to a person and let them know, preferably by sending them something that will easily snap into outlook tasks, google tasks, and other task management tools

-          The ability to receive, retain and track formal replies from the recipient of a task, including task accepted, task rejected, task status update, task completed.

[JB]

> As in my example I have some machines with Linux, how to use MLO?

I'm running MLO through wine on my Linux Mint 13 (based on ubuntu 12) machine and it runs AWESOME.  Everything I've tried so far works, seamlessly and fast, just like on my Windows machine, and looks great. It was easy to install too.

Based on this link: http://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=application&iId=8236, I chose to install the latest wine (1.5.16).
Also, note the above link refers to MLO version "3.6.2.1625-beta7", but I'm using MLO 3.6.2 which I downloaded from http://www.mylifeorganized.net/downloads/index.htm.

Here are the steps I used:
a) Installed the latest wine from their repository, following guidelines from here: http://www.ivegotavirus.com/how-to-fix-wine-in-linux-mint-13-maya/
      (see also https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-wine/+archive/ppa as a reference).
    i.  add their repository.   Software Manager > tab "Other software" > Add...
        deb http://ppa.launchpad.net/ubuntu-wine/ppa/ubuntu precise main
    ii.   sudo apt-get update
    iii.  sudo apt-get install wine1.5  <-- actually I ran "wine" throught the GUI interface instead, but this should work.

b) No need to run wineconfig (Wine > Configure Wine), but I ran it since I needed to use the Storage tab to set up an external drive.   I did not need to change any of the default settings.
    I did not need to run winetricks either.  It all just runs out of the box.

c) Download MLO version 3.6.2 which I downloaded from http://www.mylifeorganized.net/downloads/index.htm.
    This is important.  There was a specific fix for a bug in 3.6.1 that affected wine.
    I downloaded the setup.exe file to my external drive, but you probably will want to use the "c:" drive, by default located at "/home/yourusername/.wine/dosdevices/c:"   (Start > Wine > Browse C: Drive ).
    Make sure the setup.exe file is executable (chmod +x or right-click file > Properties > Permissions ... check "Allow executing file as program").
    Right-click on it and select "Open with ... Wine Windows Program Loader". 
    Alternatively, you probably can do something on the command line such as "wine mlo-setup-file ", but I did not to that.
     Warning:  If you are going to do that, I had read plenty of warnings to not install wine as root.  So even though sudo runs a command as you, though w/root privileges, I suspect you do not want to install it using sudo.  But I'm not sure about that.  You may need root privileges to run it. Unfortunately, I don't remember if, after opening setup.exe through the GUI by right-clicking as I described above, it asked me for the root password.

That's it.  There's now an MLO icon on my desktop and I just double-click that.
A big THANK YOU to the developers for making this work.   
Prior to version 3.6.2 I was running MLO on my linux machine using VirtualBox, which also ran great, but it was just a little bit more cumbersome than having it run under wine.  So far, I have not found a single problem, though I'm not trying to exhaustively test the application.  I'm just using the features I need and so far, perfect.
Best.

[motorwayne]

I actually agree with you.

I see MLO as a personal projects/Tasks manager and the list of wants you list below are great.

Richard: What I was meaning by "can a project be shared" is what Dwight suggests below...

(I would like to see MLO provide more support for the ways that an individual person’s tasks interact with other people’s tasks, including

-          The ability to tell people about a task (with any subtasks) by creating a printable summary and/or export to calendar

-          The ability to assign a task (with any subtasks) to a person and let them know, preferably by sending them something that will easily snap into outlook tasks, google tasks, and other task management tools

-          The ability to receive, retain and track formal replies from the recipient of a task, including task accepted, task rejected, task status update, task completed)

What I'm not sure of is whether MLO will achieve sharing properly, when its users have to use Windows only as the desktop option given that there are many different platforms being used in business. Obviously there is an email message that can be sent but this seems too cumbersome and inefficient.

If sharing isn't the point then fine, but it still limits the user base. Point in case, I run a Macbook at work, a PC at home and an Nexus phone. I want to work on my stuff on all devices. At present the best option for the Mac user is to install VMware, but common sense tells me that this is a cost prohibitive roadblock for most people and organisations.

The diversity of devices used by people is only going to increase in the future, hence my comments re web interface.

Great discussion

[bs27975]

POPPYCOCK!!!

Linux has been around a LONG time to not find an MLO version for it, which has also been around for enough years.

What the heck do you think Android is!

Points are well taken that a web interface at least bridges in the mean time. Even better, java (yes, ick, but better than nothing), and be done with it all.

It is chicken and egg to say Linux is a 'lesser' market when there is no version to even find out if a market exists. +1 for linux, already, for Pete's sake. (Whomever Pete is.)

On Wednesday, 7 November 2012 17:51:21 UTC-5, Richard C wrote:

Yup – agree. Absolutely no point in supporting platforms that have a tiny fraction of the market.   And in terms of my situation, I can’t see where I would use a web based interface as I am either working at my computer or I have my Smartphone with me.

I think Andrey obviously needs to keep an eye on the market and where a platform is taking off in volume, then it probably makes sense to support that but no point in spending valuable developer effort on platforms where either the market is small; or there is no business case.

 

From: mylifeo...@googlegroups.com [mailto:mylifeo...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Trish Putnam

Sent: 06 November 2012 10:06 PM
To: mylifeo...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [MLO] Currently I see no future in MLO

 Valid point, Michael, and I agree that the development effort doesn't need to support all of the possible systems out there directly.  However, go back to Darius's point that there's no web interface.  It's not ideal, but it would alleviate the pain if there were SOME way to make use of MLO from devices that aren't currently supported, such as a way to access your cloud-living data via a web-based UI.  At this point, if your device isn't supported you don't have an option to work around it.

A web-based UI for MLO cloud would certainly provide at least basic crossplatform support for any internet-connected device, which would be a decent ROI for a single development effort vs. trying to guess which platforms should be supported quickly.

On Tue, Nov 6, 2012 at 6:26 AM, Michael Emerald, CFA <westpo...@yahoo.com> wrote:

The “other side” (me) says that of all the PIM managers I’ve used, this one is foolproof, useful, rock solid, and increases productivity enormously.  I sense that the product will evolve with your own needs below over time.  Then again, as a business consultant I’d ask whether catering to the lesser-used systems is a worthwhile investment of programming resources.

The history of the product amply demonstrates that the product isn't going to evolve - there is no demonstrable development interest shown in not being Windows centric.

From: mylifeo...@googlegroups.com [mailto:mylifeo...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Darius
Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2012 04:44
To: mylifeo...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [MLO] Currently I see no future in MLO

I've checked a MLO roadmap and I must say I don't see a good future for MLO . MLO is doing a big mistake: no web app or API for MLO cloud, there is even no basic support for web planned . Now MLO is just not a true multi OS device.

I've have 3 new machines and on every of them I cannot use MLO. One is Raspberry PI, one is laptop with Ubuntu, one is VMware with Lubuntu for my TV ( I have Windows PC and Galaxy  note which I am using fine with MLO) . I know, this is Linux and Linux is not supported, but the problem is bigger:

Now we have Windows RT released. How to use MLO?

.
.
.

(Reminder: Please remember to trim your posts.)

[bs27975]

On Wednesday, 7 November 2012 02:43:12 UTC-5, lrando wrote:

BRAVO. Instead of six or more development branches, MLO could have just two, both web based, one for pc and one for mobile.

Or just one, java. (And let's remember pc = personal computer, not windows. My PC runs Linux.)
 

I'm glad to see someone else point this out. I brought this up within the past year in this forum, and subsequently rely more on toodledo for all my personal stuff, and MLO to just simply augment Microsoft OneNote for tracking my workflow in the office.

Glad OneNote works for you. Do you know when MS will be bringing it to Android and/or Linux?

Let's remember, the goal is to get away from proprietary dependencies, such as upon Exchange, Outlook, or anything else MS, for that matter.
 

 

If MLO didn't do heirarchical organization the way it does, I wouldn't use it at all. 

Something else you may not have run across is that MLO uses godaddy for some of their services which is blocked by our corporate policies and may be blocked by yours too.

Could you speak to which services? I assume not just their DNS registration?
 

There is an android app in google play that works great but has no pc equivalent, but then thats where you use toodledo's web interface.

Toodledo does not have subtasks. 1 level of subtask does not subtasks make. (They should be ashamed of themselves for their misleading marketing-speak.)
 

Its called ULTIMATE TO-DO LIST. It looks ugly but thats because it uses a black background to conserve the battery.

Michael Linenberger has an article on his blog about mobile task management and compensating for device OS platform differences.

http://masteryourworkday.com/what-tasks-server-are-you-using

Sadly, that's not viable. vis a vis mlo - it does not have the richness / flexibility offered by mlo.

Google has a poor subset of mlo, so once you move to the desktop, all the wonderfulness (of native UTDL) is lost. You can not sync (as far as I know) the wonderfulness to use it anywhere other than the pda. So, for me, I'm back to praying to mlo, having just delved into UTDL a little bit. And Toodledo does not have subtasks.

Further, from what I could see of the UTDL interface, there is not near the flexibility of the mlo desktop in terms of filtering. Android mlo is somewhat better. In coming back to look at it again, I ASSUME Android mlo will get better in this area over time. It seems the only thing in active development at mlo. (vis a vis non-Windows desktop, non-proprietary sync'ing.)

[bs27975]

On Thursday, 8 November 2012 17:56:50 UTC-5, Richard C wrote:

You raise some interesting points about collaboration/team use using MLO which by co-incidence I was also thinking about today.   The conclusion that I came to was that MLO is very much a personal organisational tool that individuals use to manage (and ideally plan) their day to day/hour by hour work.   

Agreed. Sadly. But ...

I think it would be very difficult to turn it into a tool in which teams shared a single task hierarchy.   

Clearly not, as this is one of the selling points of the cloud sync.

(Slap an ownership / permissions field on a record and get on with your day? Which presumably has already happened if cloud sharing is working.)
(Let alone the premium, network, version.)

I think other tools (web based) are better suited to manage teams and that’s the way it should remain.

Therein lies the conflict - I am a member of many different teams. Let me pull my tasks from all of them into my one central mlo interface.

Also, I would postulate, using multiple platforms as I do, needing to have a consistent mlo view available on all platforms all the time, I would argue that multi-platform / multi-device is all but tantamount to multi-user. i.e. You solve the one, you mostly if not completely solve the other.

[Earlier in the thread is the observation that a web interface is all but de rigeur. So, I am certainly not alone in needing to use whatever platform I'm near. (Somehow laptops have become desktops, in this apparently ubiquitous world of wi-fi.) 'tis all a puzzle.]

As far as I am aware there are no plans to turn it into a team/corporate tool (but I have no insight here – beyond what Andrey posts).

Too late, already essentially being marketed that way. e.g. Multi-person cloud sync / network version.

Would be interested in other people’s views.

Would be interested in Andrey's views!

[bs27975]

On Thursday, 8 November 2012 11:16:49 UTC-5, Malibu wrote:

Web based services are the technical junk food of the 21st century. It is so enticing to embrace them but look at the articles popping up about cyberspying, and we are just seeing the tip of the iceberg. Your company's intellectual property deserves protection which can only come from relentless patching, audit trails, and a guarantee to you the consumer that the information you put in that service is and will always remain yours. There also needs to be real penalties when security is breached that are in line with damages caused and the service should be able to demonstrate monthly that it has not yet occurred. All these things can easily double or triple cost.

If all these things are not in place then you are really just putting your property out there on the hope that you are anonymous enough so as not to attract the wrong kind of attention. My company has very strict rules about using in house services only and I am absolutely sure many more will follow.

Is that a hornets nest that MLO wants?

This is all FUD and a red herring.

All is true, web interface or not. Web has nothing to do with it. It's true now (with the non-web application, let alone Android - demonstrating that we're already there that you're warning against).

If it's on a computer, it's at risk. Deal.

If our heinies are already hanging out, and they are, let's at least conveniently hang ourselves out to dry, with a java version.

[bs27975]

BONUS!

Thanks for the post (and the other one mentioning wine as viable)!

I didn't know that - too many apps over too many years, I suppose, to remember that this one DOES work.

Sadly, I can't run wine - running 64-bit Kubuntu LTE, and somewhere along the line, Debian I expect, has botched the dependencies. Attempts to install it wants to replace a huge amount of my system, including the gui, with different 32-bit versions. (Same problem botches me from installing Skype.) I'm (faintly) hoping that firing up the latest SuSE on equivalent hardware at some point won't have the same problem.

On Friday, 9 November 2012 14:30:29 UTC-5, JB wrote:

> As in my example I have some machines with Linux, how to use MLO?
I'm running MLO through wine on my Linux Mint 13 (based on ubuntu 12) machine and it runs AWESOME.  Everything I've tried so far works, seamlessly and fast, just like on my Windows machine, and looks great. It was easy to install too.

.
.
.

[daniel sekera]

I guess linux would be in the "other" data line on the graph on this website?

http://gs.statcounter.com/#os-ww-monthly-201110-201210

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[Richard Collings]

J     Do I want Andrey spending time on an OS that has about 2% of the market?    Answer: no.

 

No more needs to be said.

[Richard Collings]

Personally,  I think Andrey covers an enormous amount of ground with his small team which does include him as a full time member ( if I remember correctly,  he posted a small numbers  of years ago to say that he was jacking the day job and going full time on MLO).  In the last two (?) years he has:

·        Built capable mobile versions of MLO for the main mainstream platforms

·        Set up a cloud environment allowing multiple instances of MLO to synch

·        Implemented an synch facility across these different platforms

 

Yes – further enhancements to the desktop version have stalled in that time – but I am pleased to say that (as a member of the private beta group) that there are some major enhancements in V4 – some of which Andrey has already posted to the MLO blog about and others of which he has yet to mention.    Not everything that I would like to see but enough to keep me very happy and to demonstrate that is committed to (and can deliver) a programme of major (and robust) enhancements to MLO in a relatively short space of time.   I am using the MLO V4 beta for my day to day work and it is very stable and there are several features which have significantly improved my productivity.

 

Richard

 

From: mylifeo...@googlegroups.com [mailto:mylifeo...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Holmes245

Sent: 15 November 2012 5:11 PM
To: mylifeo...@googlegroups.com

Subject: [MLO] Re: Currently I see no future in MLO

 

I think that what we're all forgetting is that the manpower just isn't there. I've pretty much gathered from what hasn't and has been said that Andrey just doesn't have the manpower to do all of this. It's apparent to me that he's not even trying to be competitive at this point probably because he can't. I'm willing to guess that MLO hasn't been Andrey's "bread and butter" so development is probably being done on the side. As much as I love MLO, let's face it, development is slow. I'm seeing features in open source software out there that is free, for example, that MLO has yet to include (i.e., rich text notes, calendar support) so as a user, I'm fortunate enough to be using a platform on which MLO works.

All of these ideas sound great but when would any of it really be implemented? At this rate, not soon enough to be practical, it seems. I'm not trying to be negative but that's the state of things as they are now. If I'm wrong on that then by all means, let me know because I want to be.

Joel




On Tuesday, November 13, 2012 3:09:33 PM UTC-5, Jake01 wrote:

• If we are talking about ultimate commercial success, it would be sufficient to follow the road map of a top developer, like for example, Evernote

• Evernote has fully functional native applications on the two major desktop OSs
• Has somewhat less functional (but more UI optimized) native support on the various mobile OSs
• Has a sufficiently functional web interface

• Based on the above, MLO is not far behind, relatively speaking!

• MLO's strength is in the nuanced interface for a major desktop OS
• Even if/when a web version is available, we should not look to it for a full set of features, because the web technologies of today are too clumsy to replicate the winning UI features which we all love in MLO

• Further OS expansion, that is, to ensure "a future", would be based on total market share/utilization vs development effort

• I doubt that the various Linux implementations are on this map, nor should they be
• MLO is not open source, just because you choose an open source OS does not mean that all your favorite apps will suddenly be supported
• When you can run Microsoft Project on Raspberry Pi, then this line of concerns will be more relevant. Perhaps this should have been my first point instead of last

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[B. S.]

That's all very well (to say), but, does anything you have said actually
address anything brought up in this thread?

Taking a quick (re)look at this thread, it started noting that the world
is moving outward to other platforms, and away from locked in
proprietary systems, particularly, Windows, or current sync'ing
methodologies.

It's all very well to say that v4 is coming / enhances the desktop, but
almost nothing in this thread, IIRC, speaks to the current desktop
client or its features.

Please point out anything I have missed or misunderstood.

On 12-11-17 09:51 AM, Richard Collings wrote:
> Personally, I think Andrey covers an enormous amount of ground with his
> small team which does include him as a full time member ( if I remember
> correctly, he posted a small numbers of years ago to say that he was
> jacking the day job and going full time on MLO). In the last two (?)
> years he has:
>

> �Built capable mobile versions of MLO for the main mainstream platforms
>
> �Set up a cloud environment allowing multiple instances of MLO to synch
>
> �Implemented an synch facility across these different platforms
>
> Yes � further enhancements to the desktop version have stalled in that
> time � but I am pleased to say that (as a member of the private beta
> group) that there are some major enhancements in V4 � some of which

> Andrey has already posted to the MLO blog about and others of which he
> has yet to mention. Not everything that I would like to see but
> enough to keep me very happy and to demonstrate that is committed to
> (and can deliver) a programme of major (and robust) enhancements to MLO
> in a relatively short space of time. I am using the MLO V4 beta for my
> day to day work and it is very stable and there are several features
> which have significantly improved my productivity.
>
> Richard
>

> *From:*mylifeo...@googlegroups.com
> [mailto:mylifeo...@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Holmes245
> *Sent:* 15 November 2012 5:11 PM
> *To:* mylifeo...@googlegroups.com
> *Subject:* [MLO] Re: Currently I see no future in MLO

>
> I think that what we're all forgetting is that the manpower just isn't
> there. I've pretty much gathered from what hasn't and has been said that
> Andrey just doesn't have the manpower to do all of this. It's apparent
> to me that he's not even trying to be competitive at this point probably
> because he can't. I'm willing to guess that MLO hasn't been Andrey's
> "bread and butter" so development is probably being done on the side. As
> much as I love MLO, let's face it, development is slow. I'm seeing
> features in open source software out there that is free, for example,
> that MLO has yet to include (i.e., rich text notes, calendar support) so
> as a user, I'm fortunate enough to be using a platform on which MLO works.
>
> All of these ideas sound great but when would any of it really be
> implemented? At this rate, not soon enough to be practical, it seems.
> I'm not trying to be negative but that's the state of things as they are
> now. If I'm wrong on that then by all means, let me know because I want
> to be.
>
> Joel
>
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, November 13, 2012 3:09:33 PM UTC-5, Jake01 wrote:
>

> * If we are talking about ultimate commercial success, it would be

> sufficient to follow the road map of a top developer, like for
> example, Evernote
>

> o Evernote has fully functional native applications on the two
> major desktop OSs
> o Has somewhat less functional (but more UI optimized) native

> support on the various mobile OSs

> o Has a sufficiently functional web interface
>
> * Based on the above, MLO is not far behind, relatively speaking!
>
> o MLO's strength is in the nuanced interface for a major desktop OS
> o Even if/when a web version is available, we should not look to

> it for a full set of features, because the web technologies of
> today are too clumsy to replicate the winning UI features which
> we all love in MLO
>

> * Further OS expansion, that is, to ensure "a future", would be based

> on total market share/utilization vs development effort
>

> o I doubt that the various Linux implementations are on this map,
> nor should they be
> o MLO is not open source, just because you choose an open source

> OS does not mean that all your favorite apps will suddenly be
> supported

> o When you can run Microsoft Project on Raspberry Pi, then this

> line of concerns will be more relevant. Perhaps this should have
> been my first point instead of last
>
>
> On Tuesday, November 6, 2012 3:44:29 AM UTC-6, Darius wrote:
>
> I've checked a MLO roadmap and I must say I don't see a good future for
> MLO . MLO is doing a big mistake: no web app or API for MLO cloud, there
> is even no basic support for web planned . Now MLO is just not a true
> multi OS device.
>
> I've have 3 new machines and on every of them I cannot use MLO. One is
> Raspberry PI, one is laptop with Ubuntu, one is VMware with Lubuntu for
> my TV ( I have Windows PC and Galaxy note which I am using fine with
> MLO) . I know, this is Linux and Linux is not supported, but the problem
> is bigger:
>
> Now we have Windows RT released. How to use MLO?
>
> As in my example I have some machines with Linux, how to use MLO?
>
> If windows 8 fails, and some people will turn to Mac/Linux, what to do?
>
> If I bought chrome book, how to use MLO?
>
> In short I don't think the developement for all the OS will be fast
> enough without any web app...
>
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[B. S.]

Some good points. Inline.

On 12-11-18 10:23 AM, landis.a wrote:
> Very Thoughtful series of posts here. Nice to hear the level of
> interest from everyone. I have been struggling with the question of
> whether I want to "go down this road".
>
> *Plus Points:*
>
> * MLO is very capable
> * MLO will synch between Windows and Android

BUT - this is not the same sync as, for example, between Android / web
google calendar / contacts. It is for ONE .mlo file (= Android mlo
profile) to proprietary standalone cloud sync or must always be running
local Windows PC sitting in the same file. Although both are sync's,
they are sync beasties of quite different natures.

So, although you could have multiple .mlo instances on the desktop in
different files, Android mlo has no file picker, it is a profile change.
Not quite what one would intuitively expect by the word 'sync'.

Unless, and I haven't tested this yet, you have multiple instances of
mlo desktop up, listening on different ports, which I assume would mean
purchasing multiple licenses of the desktop version. Or use the
proprietary (fee) cloud sync. Both would still require switching
profiles on the Android side. (Not simply going in and out of different
files / kept in sync via dropbox.)

> * MLO is an Outliner with multiple levels AND GTD thought boiled into one

Or, MLO is an outliner with some date and filter smarts not frequently
seen elsewhere. (Sadly.)

> * MLO's interface is generally nice to deal with (not always)

Fast / easy (keystrokes), desktop version, vs. typical 'inelegance' of
web user interface.

> *
> Minus Points:*
>
> * MLO is a Closed architecture and does not want to talk with other
> systems.

BIG POINT: AS IS MOST EVERYTHING ELSE OUT THERE.

So this is less a negative than an observation of the status quo.

> * MLO has no WebClient/Interface

Say, rather, MLO is not multi-platform. I think, generally, people would
not prefer a web interface, but would live with it if there's nothing
else. [You could say the same about java, for example, but there are
some very nice renditions of apps in java out there. Just like there are
far more with very poor renditions - where the elegant / expeditious
interface of a desktop app got lost in the transition. (Be it to web or
java or anything else cross-platform.)]

- which is all to say, the world has expanded, be it Android or google,
and multi-platform is becoming more important than ever as a consideration.

> * MLO seems to have a slow development cycle (been waiting for 4.0 to
> buy the PC software for a while now)

But is not atypical.

- I could argue slow / not being big is a good thing. Many webified
things produced by organizations able to bring mass resources to an
effort have killed the app in the process.

(Quest for almighty dollar in an app environment where people are not
willing to put out such dollars. Therefore, apps aren't produced as
there is no funding for it or massive profits to be made.)

[If there were such dollars, MS would have done it (poorly) long ago. In
the mean time, a poor / different approximation of it was done -
OneNote. And, in the absence of better, people are making do with it.
Taking part of MLO's potential market with it.]

{Let alone, higher barrier / cost to entry now - if you can't come out
of the gate with Windows / Linux / Android / iPhone, you may not start.
If you're an Android developer, you may not start knowing that to be
real you also have to do the other, which you may have no expertise in.}

> * MLO is not a true "Hot Sync" in the modern sense. There seem to be
> opportunities for corrupted syncs even with DropBox

Not true - (a) there is no sync via Dropbox, except perhaps between
desktop clients - this is surmountable (ssh). Sync of any type is only
viable when you're always working from the same, single, source of data.
(b) MLO sync is ongoing, continuous, and exact (as I understand it),
using the provided sync mechanisms. [Taking DropBox out of the equation,
see (a).]

> * MLO Android does not seem to have the same format as the Windows
> Machine, thus cannot be shared directly with DropBox

Problem: No form of DropBox sync is ever really a sync - it is whomever
touched the file last, which is not quite the same as 'sync'. See above.
Until and unless DropBox does record locking, sync and DropBox are
oxymorons. (I have seen nothing that leads me to ever believe they will
- witness the Android DropBox is not the same as desktop dropbox.
Android dropbox is on an as pulled basis, only.)

> * MLO is not OpenSource so there is no opportunity for community
> involvement in development

Again, as is true for everyone else. And, let's not forget that
OpenSource is not mutually exclusive with behaving in a community
development / involved manner. There have been instances of well done
organizations that don't provide their source.

From what I can tell, MLO is better than many / most - although
Andrey's silence in the group, sometimes, is a little 'distressing'.

> On MLO's side, they seem to be doing what they do well. They should
> have a Web version, and I feel they should also have a Linux and Mac
> Versions. Current iterations of "any version" are often written in
> Python or Java. Lots of folks are converging on the same battleground
> but no one has really taken the high ground yet by covering all the flanks.

Actually, that's the issue, there aren't lots of folks converging on the
same battleground. And, for example, Toodledo, where their basic design
is flawed (no real sub-tasks), can / will never be on the same playing
field. And there aren't a lot of real players out there. Most, today,
seem to be siloed in one way or platform or another. [Google docs /
drive / calendar / contacts / tasks (?) have provided a storage /
interpretation back end, enabling such data to be universal. Until
Google gets real with tasks, the same will be true for tasks, outlines,
etc.]

Two observations that may help:

- apparently MLO works with Wine. And, per last release notes, changes
were made to accommodate wine - so there is a sensitivity / awareness /
desire to running on Linux. I know of nothing else that runs on Wine,
let alone Linux. And I see nothing on Linux / OpenSource, with
functionality anywhere close to MLO, doing better, let alone going the
other way - moving to Windows compatibility. (Beyond general efforts
making entire ecosystems - such as the KDE on Windows effort.)

- my sense is that MLO on Android is evolving, and more actively so than
the desktop. e.g. It feels like a common complaint is the loss of the
rich filtering ability of the desktop hasn't percolated down to Android.
And is / will be worked on.

So, if Andrey is listening and it makes sense to him, for all we know
MLO 5.0 will be java based. We just don't know. Let alone, we don't
know, given limited manpower, if/when it might arrive even if it is
determined to be the next step to take.

[B. S.]

What is the package?

Sounds like you're in the first blush of wrapping your head around this
stuff (e.g. GTD). Certainly you could do much, much, worse than starting
with MLO as you begin your journey. I've no doubt we all wish you a
successful one beyond your wildest hopes.

Your note reminds me that ThinkingRock is out there, too - which I
haven't quite cottoned to.

Nothing wrong with java. At least well done java. I think much of the
early java was so poor, vis a vis native desktop clients, that it's
painting current java with the same brush, and java in general has yet
to shake the unjustified stigma. TaskUnifier comes to mind as something
that does pretty well, compared to much other java I've seen.

I've also been seeing that java isn't as universal as one might hope.
(But, probably, is still leaps and bounds ahead of not having it at
all.) Pimlical comes to mind. [Although how much of the windows java
isn't directly runnable on Linux, and how much of their issue is the
need to get on a universal db back end, such as sqlite, I don't know.)

On 12-11-20 03:03 AM, Jake01 wrote:
> Unfortunately, nothing comes even close to MLO. I have looked hard, and
> the only thing I found was an open source package which had some great
> features, but written in Java (i think) and is just painful to interact
> with (so ugly, etc) that it detracts from productivity, at least for me.
>
> In the several months that I have really began using MLO, some
> unexpected "properties" have emerged where I am relying on the software
> substantially more than I ever thought I would. Perhaps this is a result
> of implementing the first few milestones of GTD as well, but I am also
> using MLO to visualize swaths of my life and to do substantial planning.
> At this point, I would be happy to use the Windows software even if all
> other platforms became unavailable. The only alternative I can think of
> that would cover my specific use cases would be Microsoft Project! So
> yes, it is somewhat uneasy to rely so heavily on an application from a
> small shop, but as others have stated elsewhere, if anyone can pull it
> off, these guys can, and have done a great job so far.

>
> On Sunday, November 18, 2012 9:23:43 AM UTC-6, landis.a wrote:
>
> Very Thoughtful series of posts here. Nice to hear the level of
> interest from everyone. I have been struggling with the question
> of whether I want to "go down this road".
>
> *Plus Points:*
>
> * MLO is very capable
> * MLO will synch between Windows and Android

> * MLO is an Outliner with multiple levels AND GTD thought boiled
> into one

> * MLO's interface is generally nice to deal with (not always)
>

> *
> Minus Points:*
>
> * MLO is a Closed architecture and does not want to talk with
> other systems.

> * MLO has no WebClient/Interface

> * MLO seems to have a slow development cycle (been waiting for 4.0
> to buy the PC software for a while now)

> * MLO is not a true "Hot Synch" in the modern sense. There seem
> to be opportunities for corrupted synchs even with DropBox

> * MLO Android does not seem to have the same format as the Windows
> Machine, thus cannot be shared directly with DropBox

> * MLO is not OpenSource so there is no opportunity for community

> involvment in development

[Transisto]

Appart from "etc", everything you said can be done with Toodledo "move a bulk of tasks, use keyboard shortcuts, rapid task entry, change the due date or context of 15 tasks together, powerfully filter you viex upon your own criterias," 

It's the no hierarchy that kill it for me.
At this time I'm not using either because I see no future in MLO, The world is evolving fast, MLO is not evolving / at all.

On Monday, 26 November 2012 02:08:58 UTC-5, Wolfgang Nitzsche wrote:

Yes Toodledo is far not that powerful than MLO. Never the less, possibly it would be great to have an sync interface with it, even not all features are usable.

[Elizabeth Lindsay]

I'll admit that having an iPad, Android tablet, Android phone, and a Windows desktop can be frustrating if you want tools across all of them.  But I have to say that MLO has enabled me to eliminate the brain drain of trying to recall each task and which ones I should be doing next.  It's gotten me kudos at work. :)  I originally tried to have the two Android items and the computer all synced, but now I just use the phone and desktop - more efficient.

 

Elizabeth

 

[Richard Collings]

I haven’t been following this conversation fully (due to broken laptop) but a) what product are you using – does it exist (don’t be shy here) and b) what would you like to see in MLO that it is not doing at the moment

 

MLO V4 (currently in private beta) has many new features – specifically ability to filter outlines,  support multiple tabs and the ability to open multiple windows on the same file plus one other feature that I don’t think has been mentioned by Andrey publically yet (and so I won’t mention it).    I am using it on a day to day basis and as with all things MLO it does complex stuff reliably.  I think it is close to being read for public beta release (although I am hoping that Andrey will address one quite complex usability problem has been introduced by now having multiple tabs)

 

Yes – there has been a hiatus in development of the Windows app whilst the team have worked on the smartphone apps and the cloud sync stuff but things are moving ahead quickly now.   And as before,  Andrey is listening to what people are saying and is delivering those things for which there is the greatest support.   A wise business strategy in my view.

 

Richard (beta tester)

 

From: mylifeo...@googlegroups.com [mailto:mylifeo...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Transisto

Sent: 27 November 2012 09:21
To: mylifeo...@googlegroups.com

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[Nunya Bidness Gogl]

I came here to post some concerns I had, but Google Groups brought this thread up as a suggestion, and so I thought I would add to this thread instead of creating a new one.

I will just ad the observation that, 4 years on from OP, that some of the same issues still exist (unless I have missed something, in case please point me to further info, and I will apologize).

Primarily for me, the biggest problem seems to be that there is still no Linux version, and furthermore this doesn't appear to be anywhere in the roadmap. I have checked the UserVoice forum, and it doesn't appear to be anywhere near the top in terms of what most people want, and so maybe it will never happen. I dunno maybe there are just not enough people out there like me, or maybe there is some other tool available on Linux that I am not aware of (if so, kindly reply to my post and enlighten me!).

I suppose that I just wanted to register my opinion as one more person who has grown disillusioned with Microsoft, especially after the debacle that was Windows 8, and now with the spyware that has been included in Windows 10. And so, I think I am finally at the point where I am going to be willing to finally make the leap to using Linux full time. I suppose I will stay on 7 until it is no longer supported, but I am already dual booting and looking for Linux based alternatives to many of the programs I use. Chiefly among them being MLO of course.

With increasing privacy concerns on behalf of many people (especially in a software where you capture your most intimate thoughts, ideas, and plans for the future), I am sure that I cannot be the only person who feels this way. Also I see a huge trend moving toward open source / free/libre software, and Linux in general. Microsoft is even now giving away Windows 10 for free! When you count Android, *nix based operating systems have become the most popular by far. I think the trend is clearly going in that direction, and any business ignores such trends at their own peril. For all of these reasons, perhaps it is time to re-think creating a Linux client? Or even some sort of API or web interface, so that someone else perhaps with more time could create a Linux client?

I am not aware of anything remotely close to the capabilities of MLO on Linux (or if one already exists, again please someone point me in a direction!). And due to it's very powerful and flexible nature which appeals to us "geeks" I think you may find a lot of fans on Linux.

Please understand that I am posting out of concern and frustration. I have been a long time vocal supporter and purchaser of your products. I have bought Pro versions for PC and Android and have subscribed to sync service for many years. And I have turned many people on to MLO via word of mouth on the internet as well as in person to friends, etc. I have been a huge fan. I am just worried that I may need to part ways at some point here in the mid term future, due to switching to Linux. I don't really want to look for (much less create from scratch) a competing product, but I may be forced in that direction.

I understand that some people have gotten MLO working in Linux, maybe I need to go read up on that. But my understanding is that it doesn't work very well in Wine, and that you have to use some other software? Anyway...

[bs27975]

I hear you. You make good points. You are where I was a few years ago - since, I use Linux exclusively and have not looked back.

It has often been said that the only real way to 'learn' Linux is to live with Linux. So I will suggest that you switch to Linux full time, now - yes, it will be painful, but you will come out the other side, be happier, and more productive, sooner, by doing so.  Simple example: Word / File / Page Setup vs LibreOffice / Format / Page. Many such little aggravations encountered, forgotten not long after. Although I've tried a number of distros, I settled on Kubuntu some years ago. My newest system will run Debian with KDE, Canonical, like Firefox, forcibly moving us to a tablet interface even on desktops, which I will not tolerate. Adding to this new pressure to migrate is Chrome's cessation of 32-bit support.

- I understand your reluctance to fully switch. Like you I set up dual booting, but have not booted to Win 7 in longer than I can remember. I also converted that boot to a vm (vmware's free convert facility, IIRC), and every so often do end up turning that on in VirtualBox, under Linux. Adobe forms and Digital Editions comes to mind. Tax forms, and e-books. (Calibre has been handy dandy for ebooks - https://calibre-ebook.com/ .) I've also had success running such things as TDL (http://www.codeproject.com/Articles/5371/ToDoList-An-effective-and-flexible-way-to-keep-on) natively on Linux via Wine.

To be fair, though, most of what you say is not a particular MLO problem specific to MLO, but a gamut wide problem. And mostly one where the ground has shifted under everyone's feet in the mean time. e.g. Whither Palm, let alone MS Outlook (moving to web versions). 

I know of no pervasive Linux PIM - certainly neither korganizer nor Evolution. I now doubt that there ever will be one - instead, the ubiquity of the web and cloud storage has come along, providing cross-platform and cross-device ubiquity along the way. Be it smartphone, tablet, desktop, laptop, chromebook, or even STBs like chromecast, for that matter. So, I've given up hope for a Linux MLO, but not for a cross-ecosystem 'web' version - problem is standards have not converged, nor is there any proprietary reason to adopt such as such would have to be inherently cost free and initiatives need funding if workers are to be able to buy food. (If they can't, they must go somewhere where they can, or starve - leaving no one to work on that initiative.) There are unavoidable and reasonable justifications for being cloud and subscription based.

Systems and clouds have become more compatible as time passes, including the primary directive that my data is my data, I will have an independent copy of it, and it will be secure - with facilities such as OwnCloud.

However much I dislike web solutions, I expect that such is the only future. And I no longer look askance at MLO for not having a Linux version - with limited resources, moving disparate targets, and funding to maintain, I'm not sure anyone can really blame them, unless and until a final 'one true way' emerges. And we're nowhere near there, yet. Even when it does, funding independent development will be problematic.

The ubiquity of Google, gmail, calendar, drive, and apps, demonstrates this - despite the many deficiencies in each. Indeed, desktop apps are adopting them rather than the other way around. Witness Thunderbird's Lightning connector for google calendar, contacts, and tasks.

Alternately, there are things like Evernote and plugins, CheckVist, DejaOffice, Pimlical, EssentialPIM, X/Free/Mind/Plane, MindRaider, Treepad and variants, or even ThinkingRock, many with various app or storage connectors to such as dropbox. But I freely admit I haven't had any traction with any of them. Indeed, I expect some CRM will ubiquitously emerge, more than anything else. We're not there yet, and I am resigned to having to wait for many years before anything as simple, stable, and solved, as pre-cloud days lands again. I see no other likelihood in the mean time.

GL&HF

[Dwight]

Hi, BS and Bidness. It's my opinion that Linux is the third-most
wished-for MLO platform, with Mac at the top followed by Windows phone.

My opinion, and I believe I am agreeing with BS and the OP, is that a
cloud-based API with a web UI would be the best: it would be usable by
people on these three wishlist platforms plus others as yet unimagined.
I would like to be able to integrate MLO with any number of other apps
through something like IFTTT, not available at this point for lack of an
API. Keeping the MLO developers well compensated is important, I would
like to see something like a $25/year subscription for unlimited use
across all supported platforms for a single user: simple, clean, and
positions MLO to survive future shakeouts and platform collapses much
better than the current windows-centric pricing. There are several
really critical issues that should be resolved, including maintaining
usable levels of functionality with using MLO offline, and vastly
improving the security of the cloud storage.

So far I have not seen any signs that MLO developers would consider this
path.

-Dwight

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[Christoph Zwerschke]

Am 10.08.2016 um 21:39 schrieb Nunya Bidness Gogl:
> Primarily for me, the biggest problem seems to be that there is still no

> Linux version, ...

And there probably never will. The simple reason is that MLO was
designed as a Windows app, it does probably not use any of the
cross-platform GUI such as Qt. That's also why it the GUI is so nice and
snappy on Windows. They could have created a cross-platform Java GUI,
but then the UI would have been ugly and slow. So supporting Linux would
mean a rewrite using a cross-platform UI toolkit or maintaining a
separate codebase for Linux. That's something a small company with few
developers simple cannot afford - timewise and skill-wise. Not even
large companies like Evernote can afford to provide a Linux client. They
certainly would do that if it was so easy. Microsoft doesn't provide a
Linux client for OneNote either (though they provide one for iOS and
Android). The market is simply too small even for such widely used
applications and the burden is too much. So I think it's unfair and
unrealistic to expect a small company to provide a native client for
Linux. They already have clients for Windows, Mac, iOS and Android with
different code bases - which is a incredible huge effort to maintain
that can only be admired, and I can understand that they're already at
the limit of what they can do.

If they want to spread to more platforms, the only sane way for them
would be to stop providing native clients, and instead offer a web app
(with full offline support), like Dwight suggested, or a full cross
platform app built with a modern tool like Electron. But even that would
be a huge effort for them and amount to a full rewrite with a new
technology stack they are probably not yet acquainted with. So I can
still understand that they are reluctant to do that step. The web
technology and frameworks are also still in flux - choosing a good
framework or toolkit that is viable long-term is difficult.

I view MLO like a good craft beer from a small independent brewer. They
already make different variations of their beer. But some people demand
that they also make mainstream beer, others demand they also make wine.
But then they would stop being what they are and their great craft beer
would become the same as every other beer.

Speaking of wine: You should try running MLO on Linux via wine
(https://www.winehq.org/). Last time I tried it seemed to work, though
I'm not sure how good that works in practice.

-- Christoph

[John . Smith]

I don't have time to read this whole thread - my apologies - but I thought I'd add my tuppence worth here, because personally I am in the process of leaving MLO.

I originally bought MLO to save me time. I'm pretty sure it hasn't. I have been on MLO for over a year and it has absorbed countless hour of my life.

Core problems

1. The learning curve is too steep.

We Old Timers all forget what it was like now but MLO was a nightmare to learn. The documentation dry and hard to digest. And in accurate. And missing stuff. Frankly as a modern consumer product it is all-over-the-place.

This will put off most new users, unless they are hardcore geeks/techies.

Honestly I dont think any normal, time-poor business user would tolerate MLO, particularly the complexity and counter-intuitiveness of the Windows interface.

(ASIDE: MLO need to do usability trials on the Windows interface with new users and see what happens!)

But there are so many good things about MLO it's hard to resist. e.g. multi-level hierarchies that are intuitive, extreme ease of converting an item between task and project, user-defined hotkeys for everything in sight, user-defined rule-based formatting, sophisticated user-configurable advanced filtering, lots of fields (flags, tags, importance, urgency, start date as well as due date, goals, due date)... even multi line editing. Sounds BRILLIANT, right?

Wrong. 

2. It never got me what I wanted

I originally bought MLO because it was said to be "the task manager to go to after you've tried all the others". It was said to be a "task management platform" that lets you design your own way of working - your own "task management application" if you will.

And I must have tried about 10 completely different ways of working, with flags doing stuff and tags doing stuff, folders doing stuff... but I was NEVER HAPPY with any of them.

My greatest problem was finding a good way to move tasks & projects from GTD list to GTD list. (i.e. Inbox / Active / Someday / Waiting etc.)

Every single thing I tried has horrible unintended consequences.

My final conclusion was that the MLO needs a separate database field for "List", but it's pretty clear that that's never going to happen. 

But there are other problems too.

Even now, it's very, VERY easy to get slightly confused. Everything seems to take too many clicks.

Other task management applications have a sort of pre-built dashboard with everything you need to filter one just 1 (or sometimes 2) clicks away. 

For example: "Show me all my Person (area of life) Active tasks that are starred"

==> How many clicks?!

"Now change it to Work area of life" 

==> How many clicks?

"Now stay in Work area of life, but remove starred filter, and instead show me tagged '@Errands' that are Someday"
==> How many clicks?

It seems to me that unless you have an entire tab (work area) set up just for the view you want, it's always a LOT of clicks. But if you have say 15 Context-tags, you cant possibly have a tab for each multiplied by the number of work areas - that would be INSANE... not to mention v difficult to navigate.

So I'm off. Just thought I'd say why...

J

[John . Smith]

1. Where next?
In case you are wondering where I'm going, after a little research I'm going to try Nirvana.  The do not have multi-level projects, not multi-level task, but I'm going to see if I can live with that... 

2. Suggestion
My parting suggestion for the MLO team is that someone in their organisation should build a new application (either on Windows or possibly a Web-based application) that really is an application!  i.e. Something does not try to be all things to all people. Something that comes with a powerful pre-defined 'dashboard' involving very few clicks to change filtering. 

This new application could use the same database as MLO windows (and the mobile apps). And it could even be sold as a separate product. I would dumb down the interface to the basics so as to lower the learning curve for time-stressed mainstream people, but it have an expert mode where all the less used fields suddenly appears.

But for goodness sakes please can we have a field for List.

J

[george]

Good discussion.

Have  tried a few of these new ones (Todoist,Wunderlist.. etc.) and the amount of mouse clicks it takes to get stuff done is no fun.  

Request to MLO team: No matter  which way things go please keep/maintain/upgrade  the stand alone desktop Windows client with the keyboard shortcuts. Add more keyboard shortcuts for right click and creating recurrence etc. 

It takes a while to set up and tweak MLO with all the details and hierarchies but  MLO on one screen and Freeplane /Xmind on another and things are pretty good. 

Thanks. 

[Zainan Victor Zhou]

I used to run a VM just to run MLO, I think you've made a fair point that Linux fans love MLO, and I wish to see Web app, Cloud API etc. But I love MLO enough that I still think it has future :)

Zainan Victor Zhou 周载南
Software Engineer at Google
Email: z...@zzn.im
Phone: (650) 336-5691
微信号（WeChat ID） xinbenlv
Alumni of Tsinghua, Hopkins, Microsoft Research Asia
Linkedin www.linkedin.com/in/zainanvictorzhou

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[Tim Peters]

I am using MLO on Linux using wine and everything works well. I have written a short blog article about how to install MLO on Linux.

[Nunya Bidness Gogl]

I agree with almost everything you have written, thanks for the reply.

As far as PIM (Contacts / Calendar), I agree with "my data is mine" and therefore I am moving in the direction of open protocols like WebDAV/CalDAV or something, and/or something like OwnCloud, running on my own low power server, likely on a Cubietruck which only draws like under 10 watts or something ridiculous, and that's including the 3.5" 3TB HDD to store all the media.

This is not directly related to MLO, but rather an overarching trend that is driving me to move ever toward GNU/Linux (and FOSS software in general) in all things. My skin crawls every time I have to log into some website for something, which is almost every website these days. Or when you start using NoScript and RequestPolicy plug ins in Firefox (or instead of those two, uBlock Origin which is easier for beginners, but does not protect against browser fingerprinting) and actually see how many cross site requests are made and how much javascript and other garbage needs to be pulled in just to load a web page these days on some sites (usually I drop those sites immediately and instead just go to another site, they are usually the large media conglomerate content mills who's content is usually of dubious quality anyway). So therefore I do almost all my regular day to day browsing on TOR. There is even an Android client now (Orbot). When I am not on TOR, I connect through a VPN at minimum.

I am so disgusted and appalled by this Panopticon we are living under, the Vichy Federal government here in the U.S. have vastly overstepped the bounds placed on them by The Constitution. I've stopped using Google search, I use DuckDuckGo instead, they don't track anything. And I haven't even mentioned Google Play Services on Android yet. Google is everywhere, people think Facebook is Big Brother (I mean, they are too) but nothing compared to Google (there is a great picture of Google being "Big Brother" as well as some other great info here and here). I can hardly wait until I have completely divorced myself from using all of their "services." If you think that corporations and the government are not in bed together in 2016, I'm sorry but I have a bridge to sell you. Telcos have always traditionally done whatever the government has asked, almost universally without questioning it. If you are inclined to level the charge of "conspiracy theorist," or "kook," or "tin foil hat" or whatever, I would suggest you first inform yourself about PRISM, National Security Letters, and the NDAA.

Anyway, in case you didn't know, you can run Android without Google Play Services, but this will require some knowledge and care because you will need to root your phone and then you will likely want to install a custom ROM (which is like an alternative OS). One really high quality (on a flagship phone anyway) project is Cyanogenmod, which is very snappy and has some very nice and well thought out UI tweaks. It's called an AOSP ROM, which means it's based on Android Open Source Project, in other words, plain vanilla Android before your carrier got a hold of it and put all their garbage in to slow your phone down and block you from tethering, etc. And Android is so much faster without Google Play Services and all that junk running in the background constantly (spying on you).

I've looked into setting up my own email server, but it's apparently quite a lot of work and also can be difficult to send SMTP outbound from a residential IP address (many will think it's SPAM). Maybe a project for the future. For now, I have settled on using Tutanota, which is a web based end to end encrypted email system that is just as easy to use as Gmail. They seem to have a good freemium business model, and reading their site they seem pretty dedicated to the cause of privacy. I'm sure I will likely support them financially at some point.

I suppose I went off on some bit of a tangent, but I hope that this information is helpful to someone who may be reading. We are living in an age of rampant corporate and government surveillance, and it's only going to get worse in the foreseeable future. This is why I support FOSS software by telling people about it and using it and supporting it financially where I can. Because these are the Good Guys in this fight. They are on OUR side, the regular little people. If you are unfamiliar with the philosophy behind Free Software, you may want to educate yourself here. It really is a completely different paradigm, one where the software serves YOU instead of some corporation or other outside entity. As we continue to move into a future where almost everything seems to be becoming internet connected, and/or have a computer in it (your car, appliances, etc.) this issue will only become more and more important in our lives and therefore I ask that if you agree with the message of Free Software that you start using it and also telling other people about it, like I do every chance I get.

OK I will get off my soap box now. :)  I would just finally state that none of this applies to Andrey or the MLO team as far as I can tell, they seem to be just a small independent business that makes great software, while although proprietary, we still love them for making us a great product because they haven't turned into EvilMegaCorporation (yet, lol)!

[Nunya Bidness Gogl]

I think this is also a wise middle ground. Especially as you say "as yet unknown devices." And keeping the cloud service keeps revenue coming in for the developers. I am OK with that, we all need to eat after all.

But here is thee problem with the Cloud service: how encrypted is it? Now here I may be talking out my rear end, I honestly don't know, and so I am asking. One thing I do know is that encryption can be terribly difficult, and my philosophy is usually "leave the encryption up to a separate software that is written by people who do encryption exclusively." But I know just enough to be dangerous in this area, and I do not mean any disrespect towards Andrey or the team or their technical abilities.

But this is a huge and salient question, especially as I said for some software where you capture your most intimate thoughts, ideas, and plans for the future, etc. (like a diary).

Now, one could place the data file inside an encrypted TrueCrypt (or whatever they call it these days, I forget now) container but now you are limited to local sync and one PC and one other device, and it's a hassle to switch devices as you need to re-pair them every time, if you have say a PC, laptop, and smartphone, which is my use case.

So now we come back to: just how encrypted / secure is the Cloud service? Actually, that's not the only problem. Even if totally secure, the issue remains of having your most intimate thoughts stored on someone else's computer, instead of on your own. As I mentioned above, because of National Security Letters in the U.S., the government can come and get whatever they want, whenever they want, and Andrey and Co are not allowed to tell you anything about it, under penalty of U.S. Federal law! So I suppose another question becomes, where are the server(s) physically located?

> <mailto:mylifeorganized+unsub...@googlegroups.com>.

[Nunya Bidness Gogl]

All good points, and I suppose I knew them already if I would have stopped to think about it further. :)

My personal opinion is not that Linux is such a small market segment (truthfully I didn't take the time to pull up any numbers here) but rather the perception that "Linux people" might not want to pay for something, or be as good of a market financially as iPeople, or something like this. I dunno, just an opinion, I could be wrong.

But as I said, for many of us who are staying on desktop (instead of moving to mobile, as most of the world seems to be doing), Microshaft have just gone beyond the pale at this point. And GNU/Linux desktops are very very close to M$ these days. In fact they are superior, because they give you an actual desktop UI, instead of a tablet UI. A browser is a browser, they are all cross platform already. All that's left is desktop programs, and LibreOffice, GIMP, and similar have come a really long way and are close enough to being on par ti M$ for most people's tastes. Especially when you consider the cost (free) but more importantly the FREEDOM/LIBRE part of free, especially in the current environment.

Next point, power users. I think it's fair to say that most people drawn toward MLO could be considered power users. I am a power user. I think that others who are like me will also be moving toward Linux, especially when Windows 7 support runs out. Or now. Or sometime between now and then.

I suppose the answer in the end is just to run MLO under Wine or something like that, or in a Windows 7 VM. My desktop is plenty powerful enough for that, in fact I am looking forward to setting up a number of VMs and playing around with that anyway. Just as a sandbox to trial new programs, and then be able to remove them completely by just restoring back to the previous state. And/or running things I don't really trust. So there are a lot of advantages to VMs and things I am looking forward to doing anyway. I'm sure MLO won't be the only program I come across that only runs on Windoze.

[Dwight Arthur]

Hi, Bidness. A couple of years ago Andrey announced that MLO cloud sync, like most Cloud services, was running on Amazon servers. Unless there has been a change those servers are within reach of the NSA. I would consider this as unsecured personal storage. I agree with you that security improvements are called for  but I would not agree that MLO should aspire to blocking the NSA. I have watched several attempts by enterprises to block NSA and so far there are only two outcomes: failure and dismal failure. Maybe Apple will eventually succeed but they didn't yet. And I would guess that Apple's funding of this effort exceeds by three orders of magnitude the entire MLO enterprise. I would like to see MLO adopt commercially reasonable security for the cloud, although I understand that the technical issues pale next to the legal, marketing and administrative issues.

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[B. S.]

Interesting observation, thank you.

Isn't the solution, to my data is my data and nobody else's business, to
have the data stored encrypted, with the key not residing on the cloud
server but on my own device? (i.e. No key for the NSA to subpoena, all
data leaving the device is encrypted, and never in plain text until it
returns to that same [shared key across devices] device.)

I have no problem with the government coming and taking my data, up
close and in person, with warrants, thus I am informed it's happened,
and strictures of privacy and confidentiality and limited distribution
are supposedly inherently in place. I do have a problem with access
without my knowledge, and with someone else likely further distributing
that data in ways they think appropriate, as opposed to what I might
think appropriate - and it is, after all, MY data.

On 08/26/2016 01:13 PM, Dwight Arthur wrote:
> Hi, Bidness. A couple of years ago Andrey announced that MLO cloud sync,
> like most Cloud services, was running on Amazon servers. Unless there
> has been a change those servers are within reach of the NSA. I would
> consider this as unsecured personal storage. I agree with you that
> security improvements are called for but I would not agree that MLO
> should aspire to blocking the NSA. I have watched several attempts by
> enterprises to block NSA and so far there are only two outcomes: failure
> and dismal failure. Maybe Apple will eventually succeed but they didn't
> yet. And I would guess that Apple's funding of this effort exceeds by
> three orders of magnitude the entire MLO enterprise. I would like to see
> MLO adopt commercially reasonable security for the cloud, although I
> understand that the technical issues pale next to the legal, marketing
> and administrative issues.

.
.
.

[Dwight Arthur]

Hi, bs. There are no simple solutions. When you see a solution that looks
simple that means that you are missing something. The technique you are
advocating, shared key encryption (a subset of shared secret encryption)
is a longstanding and respectable approach, and will probably keep your
spouse (or parents, depending on your age) away from your secrets. If you
are harboring data that's a high priority to well funded
government-sponsored cryptanalysis agency, you will just make the job a
little bit harder, by forcing them to intercept the key while you are
copying it between the systems that share it, or by forcing them to hack
into your system and steal the key, or in the worst case to run a brute
force attack and try all possible keys until one works. You would probably
be surprised to know how quickly a brute force attack works on the average
key (which is surprisingly weak)

You might try escalating to asymmetric cryptography where the key is never
shared. If like Apple you happen to have your own integrated circuit
fabrication plant in your backyard you could hide the key deep in a chip
where nobody can see it. You could enforce that every key is sufficiently
complex to defeat a brute force attack.

Taken together this is like having an unbreakable titanium steel front door
with an unpickable lock. This will enforce that nobody will get through the
front door without an invitation. Which would force the attacker to use the
back door. Or break a window. Or tunnel into the basement. Or pay your
security consultant to betray you.

Your system is complex with many parts and the weakest part is *very* weak
and that's where the attack will happen. It does not matter how strong the
strongest link in the chain is, it's the weakest link that will fail you.

But we are getting far from the topic of this forum so I would like to
stop. I am not really an expert in this stuff. If you want to go further
into this, try following one of the actual experts. I would recommend the
blog at www.schneier.com

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[Elizabeth Lindsay]

I'd like to briefly chime in.  Please understand I am not following the thread, so I apologize if this seems out of place.  I personally LOVE MLO and I hope that a discussion with such a negative title doesn't sway the developers to stop work on this product.  I know I am WAY more productive at work because of MLO and I want to express my thanks to the team.

[Michael Emerald, CFA]

I agree with Lindsey. Moreover, I've already suggested an enterprise version of it, for group collaboration.

Another suggestion would be a premium plan for 25 or more cloud files.

Sent with AquaMail for Android
http://www.aqua-mail.com

On August 27, 2016 12:14:13 Elizabeth Lindsay <techno...@gmail.com> wrote:

I'd like to briefly chime in.  Please understand I am not following the thread, so I apologize if this seems out of place.  I personally LOVE MLO and I hope that a discussion with such a negative title doesn't sway the developers to stop work on this product.  I know I am WAY more productive at work because of MLO and I want to express my thanks to the team.

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[trs...@gmail.com]

I don't think a brief foray into the problems of encryption is off topic, in fact I think it's directly on topic to my (and others'?) concerns. So thanks for your input, Dwight.

At any rate, yes I have researched into and thought about these questions a great deal also (including reading Bruce Schneier of course) and the gist of what you said is true (generally, it's more complex than you might at first think). And that's why I said right off the bat that, for me personally, I generally follow the precept that "encryption should be left to those most knowledgeable" with a healthy preference for FOSS over proprietary solutions (because security by obscurity is not security at all) while also realizing that just because it's FOSS doesn't mean it's bulletproof either.

I am also under no illusions that if I was directly targeted by some three letter agency that I would likely be in trouble, but that doesn't mean we should just throw the baby out with the bath water and just give up. What I am shooting for is at least being able to stop the indiscriminate hoovering up of my data as it is sent over the internet, or preferably perhaps be able to store it here on a computer that I physically control. I think that's better than "cloud" storage which is of course just a marketing term for storing your data on someone else's computer.

Many people share my same concerns, in fact I think more and more that people are starting to reject "the cloud" as they realize it's not all it's cranked up to be. This is a larger trend that I think all businesses (including Andrey / MLO) need to recognize. As some others have pointed out already in this thread, the trend seems to be moving toward "my data is mine."

So then you come back to storing your data file on your own computer locally (in a True Crypt container for instance) and then doing local sync, and then you run into the problem of only being able to sync 1 PC with one other device, a single pair. I need to sync between a laptop, a PC, and my phone (3 devices). Because your capture system needs to be available to you at all times or it is worthless. This is one of the main tenets of GTD (and other systems I'm sure).

So I guess what I am asking is can we please remove the artificial restriction on single pair local sync?

And here is where we will run into a conflict with Andrey's business interest/model (to sell cloud sync) and this is always the biggest problem with non free software sooner or later. It is putting someone else's interests ahead of mine the user.

I don't expect Andrey to change his stance on this, as I said it's directly opposed to his business interest and that's his right.

So then what am I to do? Either mess with the hassle of re-pairing multiple devices all the time, don't put anything sensitive into MLO (which kind of defeats the purpose of having one centralized system), or go look for other solutions (I have and haven't found anything quite as capable, yet), or go write my own software.

You might laugh at that last option, as someone who hasn't coded anything seriously in a long time, but let's say for a moment that I do eventually get something cranked out after a couple years of toil (perhaps less time if others pitch in and join me). And then Andrey you would be looking at s FOSS competitor to your product that people could download for free, modify as they wish, and all the other benefits of free software. Your entire business might go the way of the dodo.

Now I don't really want to do that to you, so instead can you just allow more than a single pair of devices to sync locally? Please? Pretty please, with whip cream and a cherry on top? :)

Sent from my android device.

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[Dwight Arthur]

Hi, TRS. Wifi sync can work with as many devices as you like, except that each sync session is for a specific pair and if your current device and its target are not currently paired you have to re-pair them. This is all the same as cloud sync except for the need to re-pair. Re-pairing isn't complex or difficult, it's just that you have to walk over to the target device and do the re-pairing. So, if you are up for some custom software development, how about creating a keyboard macro for your desktop called "pair with laptop" and one called "pair with phone" and an efficient means of triggering these macros remotely?

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[trs...@gmail.com]

That's actually a great idea, Dwight. I've already played with AutoHotKey on Windows and Tasker on Android. Obviously on GNU/Linux you can do a lot with bash and other tools. Although we are talking about MLO inside a Windows VM on a GNU/Linux box and therefore using AHK inside the Windows VM, and then something on the phone end. That's definitely within my current capabilities.

I'll need to play with it and see what I can get worked out. If/when I do, I'll try and remember to post back some sort of guide (or my AHK scripts, or whatever) for the benefit of the community.

Dwight, has anyone told you lately how valuable of a resource you are to this community, my man?

Are you on the payroll? If not, maybe you should be? Because you likely just saved one paying user from going and looking for another product. Maybe you should be compensated on a piece work basis. lol

I am also coming around to your previously expressed point of view that customer service can be a selling point. I suppose I've always known that, it's just that it's practically a forgotten craft in today's day and age.

Well done, my man. You should feel good today. :)

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[trs...@gmail.com]

I should have replied to Dwight via this thread title. Dwight, if you reply again, please do so here.

Apologies to Elizabeth (Lindsey), Michael, or anyone else upset by the previous "chicken little" title, as I said in my first post I did not pick it.

Anyway, after Dwight's last post, I see a workable path forward now. Thanks again Dwight for the suggestion!

Sent from my android device.

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