When will we start to see some design and not just marketing upgrades to MLO?

[Grant]

Looking back over the last year and a half, I notice that the MLO
feature set has not significantly changed, except to support new
platforms, which, as a loyal user from the days when Windows was the
core platform, is not really of interest to me. I even tried the iPod
version, but found that it was even less functional and hard to
navigate.

Maybe its time to start focusing more on the feature set again, and
not just new markets?

What got me thinking about this was the lack of any kind of formatting
in the Notes section. I know many many other people has asked for
this, yet we still never see it. And then I could mention the
calendar again...

[Lisa Stroyan]

I think this is a good point, but I think it is important to avoid feature-creep and have a strong use-model in place for new features.

(Except formatting in notes as that is independent of use-model, IMO).

I love the Android app, it's really shaping up beautifully. But I don't think it needs to have all the same features as desktop at the cost of preventing new features in the desktop.

Lisa

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[daniel sekera]

I agree as well.  I also would like to see continued development of the desktop model with some of these features and I also agree they do NOT have to also be done on the mobile versions

[Eli]

Agreed, stronger features on the desktop, and the mobile can just be
basically a tracking tool to update the desktop on what you did while
you were out, for all I care.

On Sep 13, 10:29 am, daniel sekera <dwsek...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I agree as well.  I also would like to see continued development of the
> desktop model with some of these features and I also agree they do NOT have
> to also be done on the mobile versions
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 13, 2011 at 1:09 PM, Lisa Stroyan <lstro...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I think this is a good point, but I think it is important to avoid
> > feature-creep and have a strong use-model in place for new features.
>
> > (Except formatting in notes as that is independent of use-model, IMO).
>
> > I love the Android app, it's really shaping up beautifully. But I don't
> > think it needs to have all the same features as desktop at the cost of
> > preventing new features in the desktop.
>
> > Lisa
>

[Luc Poitras]

I agree 100% with Eli here, the mobile being just a tracking tool while being out. The big advantage of seeing it this way is that Andrey can CONCENTRATE on developping to the max. the desktop.

Envoyé de mon iPhone

[Holmes245]

I agree as well. Would like to see some development on the desktop model myself.

[lrando]

I agree,
the android app is nice but I dont' think its practical for entering
data in.
I'd like to some basic AUTOMATED syncing with toodledo at the desktop
or full blown, like the "dgt gtd" android app does which is what I am
evaluating now due to the syncing limitations in MLO.

[daniel sekera]

you want the task organizer MLO to sync with the task organizer Toodledo?  Why do you need to separate task organizers?

[Lisa Stroyan]

I disagree that mobile platforms should be just task trackers. I think they need to be richly featured; the more tablets become popular the more people are going to be doing task management on the go. 

However, the real income is still in the desktop and so the advanced features need to pull in desktop users. For example, advanced filtering, auto formatting, defining views, etc.  There are many powerful features of the desktop that do not need to be on mobile devices.

But my little soapbox as some of you already know is use models. I don't blame the developers whatsoever for being a bit snowed under with the various mobile apps and bugfixes. But before major updates to the desktop are designed, there has to be some idea of how people will use them. I love the flexible feature set of MLO, and I think it supports many different ways of using MLO which is great, and that strength needs to be preserved.

One use model that I think would be effective for users and also would generate revenue would be to allow definition of views on the desktop that are then exported to the mobile device to which they sync.

Finally on the integration with other task managers, I think it's probably way more work than it is worth to integrate with competitor's task systems. Integrations take a lot of work and are really prone to be buggy and tend to need more maintenance than other features. My advice to people saying we need integrations is to look at what you would do with that integration -- what features are you looking for? There may be much less work involved in a direct implementation than an integration and much less upkeep and dependence on a product you can't control.

Lisa, former SW developer, and MLO fan

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www.empathic-parenting.com

[pottster]

Integration is best achieved through ease of import/export. OPML was supposed to provide this for Outliners but it's uptake among developers has been patchy at best. It would still be useful for MLO to accommodate this standard though.

For what it's worth, I agree with the viewpoint of mobile/smartphone app as a tracker. For me, in the context of productivity software, the tablet isn't a mobile platform. I believe people are looking for a Desktop port i.e. the same functionality as if they were using a netbook/laptop but on a tablet. It looks like there will be a convergence of the two (Desktop/Mobile) in the tablet environment.Certainly seems to be Microsoft's vision based on the Windows 8 preview yesterday. You then get a device (the tablet) which is for play and work - just that when it's for work it needs to feel like and perform like a Desktop program. I suspect Apple started out with the iPad as a home based consumption device but the form factor and versatility has made it a viable laptop replacement in the world of work and education as well.

[daniel sekera]

I appreciate your views, but I disagree with the mobile platform being anything more than a plaything.  I know right now tablets and smart phones are the big wave everyone is riding, but what exactly do these things do?  By that I mean production comes from "doing" things not reading things and until these mobile platforms figure out a way to allow fast and easy typing including data entry into spreadsheets etc they will remain nothing more than fancy "viewers"

I know some have nice "virtual" keyboards but in no way yet are they as useful as a laptop.

so "pads" will keep getting bigger and more robust and then someone will say uh....I need a keyboard to "attach" to my pad and then the laptop will be reinvented.  all i see now in meetings are people walking in with smart phones and pads AND their laptops.  I don't think the laptop will ever be replaced.

The Majority of my "work" is done on a laptop or a desktop.  I need things to talk to one another on those platforms.  

I want to be able to drag and drop almost anything into MLO in some fashion, just so I can quickly tie documents together with the associated tasks

I want to be able to have MLO work seamlessly with Gmail and the be able to drag emails from gmail into MLO to create tasks without needing third party software apps or work arounds in either direction.

There might be small things here or there but otherwise I love MLO and how it can work in almost any situation.  I

 

--

[John]

Hi Lisa,

I think there are some people who are always on the move and are
rarely in front of a PC. Salesman,
construction engineers, architects, drivers use their mobile device
intensively.

Defined views would be a nice feature on a mobile device, if they are
made into icons that can be placed the Home window (and more other
customizable windows). It would be a very quick way to find
information on a small screen.

MLO is a good outliner by itself. The Android Help file is written in
MLO outlines. For the moment I myself use it more as outliner than as
a task manager, though I intend to learn more about it's
capabilities.

I think it will not require much effort to make it into a good text
outliner too. I can easily tweak MLO to make it behave like a text an
Outliner, but if this function were inherent, it would be more
natural.

There are many Windows outliners, but how many Windows outliners do
you know that exist on Android also?

The popular outliners like Bonzai, Shadow Plan, Listpro, Splashnotes
do not have an Android version. I doubt they will.

That's why MLO can derive a decent revenue by developing the outliner
functions, thus attracting Outliner fans, like me :)

John

On Sep 14, 5:00 pm, Lisa Stroyan <lstro...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I disagree that mobile platforms should be just task trackers. I think they
> need to be richly featured; the more tablets become popular the more people
> are going to be doing task management on the go.
>
> However, the real income is still in the desktop and so the advanced
> features need to pull in desktop users. For example, advanced filtering,
> auto formatting, defining views, etc. There are many powerful features of
> the desktop that do not need to be on mobile devices.
>

> --
> Lisa Stroyanwww.empathic-parenting.com

[Oleg Polovinkin]

Agree, and it must be extremely handy for this task - task tracking.
That's why widget with sort/filters/change view on the fly, with
checkboxes - should be one of the highest priorities, I think. And it's
size should be maximum possible. And several more thoughts:

1. What do you think of option to show in widget not only context or
date, but project too? For example, possibility to select two of three
these options to show: due date, contexts, project (highest level
project or one-level-up project - selectable)? I often need to do
similar tasks, belonging to different projects, and I have to add
"project code" (abbreviated project name) into task name especially to
see on android device, what project this task belongs. Though in
BigBrother I just configure To-Do to show project name in square
brackets after task name.

2. What do you think about multiline tasks in widget?

3. I think, sync to some web GTD service (ToodleDo, for example) should
be good idea - for people, who can't or wan't buy desktop version of
MLO, or those running Linux/MacOS Desktops.

On 14.09.2011 04:19, Luc Poitras wrote:
> I agree 100% with Eli here, the mobile being just a tracking tool while being out. The big advantage of seeing it this way is that Andrey can CONCENTRATE on developping to the max. the desktop.
>

> Envoy� de mon iPhone
>
> Le 2011-09-13 � 18:09, Eli<sup...@tellafriendking.com> a �crit :

[lrando]

Hi Daniel,
The web front end is the point, not another task organizer.
I just want a web front end and toodledo is a good one.
While my case is a special one, the web front end incorporating a
small set of features is something that everyone could benefit from
and it could be a good way to promote MLO.
in fact in my mind it would simplify life for the developers. Unless i
have a misconception, Implementing HTML5 they could have a platform
independent and consitent interface to MLO on mobile devices.
Two platforms instead of SIX (including the cloud sync).

Its taken me two years of implementing GTD to stumble onto MLO. I
don't get why MLO isn't better known. Maybe because getting ANCHORED
to ONE PC is so limiting that its not something reviewers take
seriously, and we all know what a pain it is to have to install MLO on
another pc and set it up to sync and import your views from your other
pc's and then when you modify views you have to distribute them using
the sneakernet.

I use multiple pc's during the day. My organizations firewall policies
don't allow the cloud sync feature to work, and the policies are non-
negotiable.
My work environment is too complex to mix with my personal
environment, I wind up with lists of contexts and projects that become
unmanageble and too time consuming to sort through.

Having a toodledo sync would allow me to update my personal task
environment in toodledo and have it synced to MLO on my laptop at home
so I could take advantage of having the task show up in my home MLO
and then I could define it there in my morning review.

[Trish Putnam]

Daniel, do you use a modern tablet?  I do.  Does it fully replace my desktop or laptop?  No, of course not.  But you might be surprised at how often it does stand in.  Generally, during the daily spate of meetings I don't need heavy computing power.  I need to manage my schedule, my tasklist, a way to do some quick research and respond to email, and to take a note or two about action items and open questions. With my tablet (a 10.1" Android-based device), I may not type my usual 100+ words a minute using the virtual keyboard, but I can type as fast as I need to for notes and email, and I could certainly type well enough to add or edit tasks and projects in MLO. 

I can attach a keyboard or mouse if I want to, and I do occasionally do so when I expect to have to do a large amount of keyboarding, but the plus side is that I can reduce the weight and bulk and leave them at home, too, leaving me carrying something the size of a notepad.

 

My point is that you should probably not class tablets as smartphones. I love smartphones, but would agree that they aren't really able to present more complex scenarios easily - there simply isn't enough screen real estate.  Nor should you class tablets as some sort of fad or toy when talking about the need for more complex functionality.  In point of fact you might be surprised at how few people with complex schedules and todo lists need heavy processing power when they need to use their organizer, but they DO need something that is not a power pig and can take them through multiple meetings without having to haul around ten pounds of laptop, power brick, and assorted accessories in a bag. 

 

Most of the tech industry is betting on tablets, especially after watching the iPad take off in the business sector. I wouldn't write them off so quickly :)

[daniel sekera]

Thank You for the Reply

I now see why you use both interfaces.

I also have spent a few years of trying to perfect GTD for my situation and I agree i don't know why MLO is not more well known.

I have tried a few other software solutions over the years and none can compare to the flexibility of MLO.  I can see where it is a two edged sword.  The application and future development is worth a higher license fee, but the market will only bear so much before current and potential customers "make do" with other less flexible apps.

I have found that every time I try to really micromanage my life by organizing and modifying MLO I end up reverting to a simpler format.  in fact I have been currently running my simplest format yet combining GTD principles and View / Horizon principles.  I have a limited number of contexts (maybe a dozen or so) to run my day to day life and everything else is "parked" in a over the horizon context waiting for weekly review.

Once I disciplined myself to use views sorted by context my life became much clearer.  Otherwise I found I spent so much time trying to organize what I was going to do and not enough time actually doing.

I cannot control the flow of incoming tasks and most days they grow faster than they get completed, but I leave every day with an empty inbox on my desk and an empty email inbox.  What a nice feeling!

Prior to my adoption of a smart phone, (I resisted for no other reason than i did not feel like giving Verizon an additional 30.00 a month) I carried a Pda which I plugged into my pc at my desk so it continuously synced.

I finally went with a smart phone and know use cloud sync.  The only step it added in my life was remembering to actually sync so i pray that someday that syncing will become automatic!  I feel your pain that your IT policies are restrictive like that,  My IT dept has similar overly restrictive policies in my opinion.  The main number one forces me to use a rule in my outlook to forward all incoming email to my gmail account so it can sync with my phone. They will not allow their email to "talk" directly with a pop3 service like google.  Now every email in my gmail starts off with FWD and they are all from "me" so i cannot even sort by sender without a crushing amount of filters.  Yet if I bought an IPHONE they are ok with that.  ugh!

I guess if i was faced with your situation, many different computers in the same organization and at home as well I would just run my MLO from a flash drive with a bu copy on my home machine.

Not the cleanest or most graceful solution but it works I guess.  I would love ONE place or interface or whatever.  I can envision where everything in my life could be done in one app I just don't think it would ever happen...and oh would i pay for that.  All the capabilities of MLO and Outlook , and Google and the Microsoft office suite all co-mingling and updating and talking to one another at all times and being able to access all this from anywhere?  and get it all on my phone when I need?  Oh well I'd like to solve the national debt and employment and health care also.............

[João Melo]

I use the mobile interface in order to quickly acess information about
my planning. Someone asks during a meeting if we can do a follow-up
next monday at 11h. That's the moment when a mobile interface could be
great. I don`t have that now becouse the great flexibility of todo e
search in windows is not completly presented on the iphone. And the
sync stuff is not quite so good, at least in the eyes of a dropbox
user. I undertand your point, but i can wait to format notes if i get
that on my iphone first.

regards,
joão

[Neal]

Trish, I have SO argued this point with Andrey.  Unfortunately, Andrey does treat the Tablets and Ipads as glorified smartphones.  You don't get a full implementation of MLO on either of them.  You are only now starting to get a version that incorporates the "extra" real estate of the Ipad.

The Windows 8 Slate that will let you make hand written notes and turn them into digital text is about a year out.  The current slate versions don't have the battery life to make them, imo, worthwile for the cost.  So for right now there isn't really a full implementation of MLO available in the tablet market.

[Neal]

And Irando, I have SO SO argued this point, too.  Andrey is NOT a large company.  Attempting to incorporate MLO into so many different platforms has, imo, not satisfied very many people and in fact has hurt his main customer base.  As this thread is suggesting.  I agree with you.  A web answer for the smartphones and a "real" answer for the windows and tablet worlds was and still is my recommendation for Andrey.

[Dwight]

Maybe I'm just not typical (wouldn't be the first time :-) but MLO is
my most-used application and the Android is where I do my real work.
Something like 60% of my task captures and my task completions happen
away from my laptop. Since my phone is always with me, it's present
for 100% of my task captures and completions. I actually find
sometimes that when I am on the laptop working between browser and
word processor and I realize something I need to do, it's faster to
hit the [+] icon one my phone, enter a couple of words, and hit
[create] than to do it on the laptop.

I want MLO on the phone to do all the task management that I need
while I am out living my life. This includes taking down to-dos while
I am at a restaurant having a meal with a client, checking off that I
have picked up a brochure at the printer, and checking which of my
pending calls-to-make I should do next. For me, the laptop is for
housekeeping and maintenance, such as archiving, sifting the dozens of
new tasks in my inbox into categories and folders, fleshing out a
project structure and setting complex dependencies.

I understand and agree that there's more per-unit revenue in desktop
apps than phone apps (I think the jury is still out on tablet app
revenues.) but I think that mobile apps will be the driver that
creates demand for the desktop app. The whole conversation about the
limited role of phones and tablets is like a replay of the arguments I
had in the 1980s with people who said desktops would never be good for
anything but forms-based data entry, because mainframes have so much
more power.

I am in favor of continuing development of the desktop app. For people
who take their hands off of the desktop keyboard from time to time, I
think task management demands a mobile app and it would be a mistake
to dismiss it as just a toy or a tracking tool.
-Dwight

[daniel sekera]

Fair enough.  My opinion and the big difference I see between this and the 80's argument you use however is the keyboard.

The desktop / mainframe was solved with computing power installed into the desktop.

I have a droid 3 with and i would not want to enter tasks all day with that little keyboard.  Now it's fortunate that in my setting I am exactly the reverse.  I am desk bound.  My tasks for the most part originate around my desktop / laptop and I can complete some but not many mobile and definitely some capture mobile.

Most of my task completion requires data entry of some type.  spreadsheets, inventory control, using third party management software etc.  I may be wrong and will borrow a tablet to verify, but without a actual physical keyboard with a number keypad I think I would be out of business.

Now if i was a salesperson on the road I might not have anything but a tablet.  To constantly be writing words and sharing information I think a tablet would be perfect, along with a phone to make calls.

I think there are many more desk bound people than mobile but I may be wrong.  This is a good discussion but probably not one that can be solved.  

I honestly probably shouldn't be commenting at all.  If I have a place to make a list and check if off when I have done it then I have all I need.  I came from a phone and pda and laptop, so just eliminating the pda was a win for me.

[Eli]

It sort of sounds like you use the lap/desktop for everything except
adding and completing tasks? If so, you're sort of using it the way
we described, with the mobile as mostly a list manager.

[Trish Putnam]

Neal, I'm not sure why you think the battery life isn't sufficient for the current tablets.  I generally get between 8-10 hours on my tablet.  Primary use is MLO, some reading and some light notetaking during the day, although occasional random web searches occur as well.  It's lightened my load considerably, and I can do most of the stuff I did on a laptop (well, I don't do any code development on it :) ).

 

I think that Andrey is going to find that the tablet market will explode in the next 6-18 months.  I'm sorry that MLO will be behind in supporting that, but hey, at least I can do some basic management of tasks through the Android version - it gets me through, even if it's not ideal.

 

I am looking forward to seeing the Windows 8 slates, though!

On Thu, Sep 15, 2011 at 8:34 AM, Neal <nsch...@gmail.com> wrote:

Trish, I have SO argued this point with Andrey.  Unfortunately, Andrey does treat the Tablets and Ipads as glorified smartphones.  You don't get a full implementation of MLO on either of them.  You are only now starting to get a version that incorporates the "extra" real estate of the Ipad.

The Windows 8 Slate that will let you make hand written notes and turn them into digital text is about a year out.  The current slate versions don't have the battery life to make them, imo, worthwile for the cost.  So for right now there isn't really a full implementation of MLO available in the tablet market.

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[Neal]

Sorry, Trish, I was talking about the current Windows Slate/Tablets not the Android versions.  I really liked the Asus ep121 windows tablet but it only had <2 hour battery life.  I am waiting for the Windows 8 Samsung which should be in the 6 hour range.

Most of the existing Slates are netbook cpu's.  the Asus was the only one with a faster CPU.

I agree that the Android tablets have a long enough battery life.  I just wanted the full implementation of MLO and not the smartphone version.  And I agree with you on the tablets exploding.  I tried to explain that before.  Eight and ten inch platforms are actual PDA's.  I think most people will want one when the apps catch up.  Problem is that app developers need to understand that tablets are going to be real business tools and not just big screen smartphones.

[SRhyse]

I'm not sure how many people are working on all these apps, though my
current understanding is that it's not very many besides Andrey.

Whether or not you're for continued development on either the desktop
or mobile fronts, the pace of development is likely so slow all around
because the development team is spreading itself too thin among all
the different components of what's now an ecosystem of syncing MLO
apps. So the real issue here is likely that it might be time to expand
the development team, not so much that it's focused on the wrong
things. That ANY of the apps have slowed in development for so long,
and the historically long time it's taken to develop any of the newer
mobile apps on the Android and iOS platforms to begin with, might be a
sign that there may not be enough horses pulling the MLO bandwagon.

Don't get me wrong - I'd love the development of the Windows app to
show signs of existing once again, and would kill for the multiple
tabs feature, along with calendars as far as the eye can see. I even
think it'd be great if he installed a flashing icon that said 'I'm
great' every time I checked off a task, but I don't think it's not
happening because he's got his eyes on the mobile apps instead. I
think it's cause he's a bit lonely at the keyboard to please his
growing audience.

[Lisa Stroyan]

Just one minor comment regarding the keyboard...I'm finding that sometimes I also go to my phone when I have the laptop readily available, because for small amounts of text it's about as fast to use the voice recognition on the phone. (If I have more than one or they have to be proofread, the laptop is the fastest).

I composed most of a 1/2 page review of an article today using my phone on the go (I use Flex T9 in part because it allows me to turn off "detect end of speech" so I can pause while speaking).  It took me about 5 minutes to clean it up and print.

I'm not trying to argue one way or the other -- I think both are important and it's a moot point because the Android app is already designed and working well. 

On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 4:11 PM, daniel sekera <dwse...@gmail.com> wrote:

Fair enough.  My opinion and the big difference I see between this and the 80's argument you use however is the keyboard.

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www.empathic-parenting.com

[daniel sekera]

every time i see anyone write what fantastic whatever a tablet is going to become i am going to feel compelled to offer my opinion that it will not happen until it comes with a full size keyboard with a number pad and if you think i am going to have to carry a tablet as the "do all" thing that some seem to be betting on it had better be a cell phone as well.  

 

it's already almost 2012 and it's not even close yet.  desktop apps will rule the day for years to come.  concentrate on what is here now not what "might" be along someday.

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[Dwight]

Daniel,
I was a Blackberry user for a long time because I imagined that I
would always need a physical keyboard, that I would never be effective
typing on glass. But the Skype keyboard running on a 4.5“ screen in
landscape, turns out to be plenty big enough and faster than physical
typing. But I can see that a physical numerics would be indispensable
for someone who does that kind of work.

Eli, I guess that you could say that I use the mobile for list
processing and the desktop for everything else. Provided that "list
processing" includes task capture, reporting, analysis, searching,
prioritizing, task selection, and task completion. In other words,
"productive work." And if "everything else" means "housekeeping"
-Dwight

[Neal]

Daniel, you are of course entitled to your opinion.  However if you look at the uservoice for MLO, I think you will find "Developing an app for the IPad" to be in the top three (currently second) of enhancements requested for MLO.  As the tablet market grows I would be very surprised if an Android tablet version of MLO would not also become a big requested feature, as well.

You might not like the concept of computers without keyboards, I'm just thinking you might end up in the minority on that one.