religion

[pol.science kid]

I checked the etymology of religion... It makes even more suspicious of religion.. Why do most people confuse being a theist with being religious... Religion is just increasingly irritating.. I guess sometimes they overlap of course.. Theism and being religious.. But i am just thinking.. When these big religions were supposedly concieved their message must have been to people in general right. Not to hindus or muslims or christians etc... Right?

[facilitator]

Define "Big Religions".

[archytas]

I agree Pol.  No real need to define big religions, unless Tony has something cunning in mind.  Our cat runs a small religion with only four acolytes - me, Sue and the dogs.  Worship involves feeding her first, fur preening (Max's tongue), stroke smoothing to raise the purr god, warm spot provision (Zak's tummy) and box on dishwasher.  Big is a bit obvious once one understands small.

The origins of these big religions is much more obscure than they let on.  Jews may be worshipping a Sun god copy, Christians may be Flavians (the sect invented by Romans as a control mechanism), Islamists may be Berber Jews copying Rome's use of Christianity as a control device and so on.  Many religious words describe freedom from debt, like jubilee and thus some rebellious stuff may have been involved before the institutionalisation.

[allan...@gmail.com]

Ah the etymology of religions.  To me it is absolutely fascinating.  I writing this  and laughing.. i understand they leave wondering what kind of wackos are involved.  ( that includes myself.)
To be religious you more or less following a strict set of beliefs. . A theist beliefs in a ¿personal? God. The two words are semi interchangeable.

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Évitez; assassiner, le viol et l'esclavage des autres
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

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[facilitator]

Neil pulled an "Obi-wan Kenobi"…You don't need to define big Religions.

I don't think any religion started as some bit to control the masses since at the time the "masses" were very small. Thats a re-write of history based on current perception of Opiate for the masses saturation.

[Gabby]

Here in Europe we usually speak of the three book religions, meaning Jews, Christians, Muslims. I guess we all more or less know that the religion we were born into did not come into effect with the book being read to us but with a life style that can be explained by our long history described in the books. Of course there was meaningful life before and after the fixation of certain narratives in the books, but controlling the other or excercising power over the other is easier when you can define what the same page is you want others to be on. What about religion is you don't like?

[allan...@gmail.com]

¿book? The Gita and Vedas are not books? They have been around a lot longer than the tora has been.
Hate to inform you Gabby but the history you have been reading is a great deal of fantasy. Modern archeology is not being able to verify the stories told.  To the point I am wondering what really when on with the Jews in Egypt?  It was not building pyramids because it turns out they were built by labor unions with health care..

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Évitez; assassiner, le viol et l'esclavage des autres
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: Gabby <gabb...@gmail.com>
To: mind...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thu, 05 Feb 2015 9:01 PM
Subject: Mind's Eye religion

[Chris Jenkins]

I think you quite missed both her meaning and her point, Allan. 

The "Religions of the Book" are referring specifically to the three monotheistic religions which share the same roots. Christianity, Judaism, and Islam all essentially worship the same god; a single, all powerful, male creator figure. This is common parlance in World Religions 101. Palestinian Christians pray to "Allah"..."God" just means "God". 

And Gabby was referring to personal history, meaning the specific traditions carried down in families. She said:

"I guess we all more or less know that the religion we were born into did not come into effect with the book being read to us but with a life style that can be explained by our long history described in the books."

It wasn't our parents reading us the bible which indoctrinated us into action; it was the chain of tradition we saw our predecessors practicing according to the book that enforced its importance, and enforced it daily, over our entire lives observing their reverence. 

[allan...@gmail.com]

I am going to leave that one alone.. no comment. .

[Chris Jenkins]

Well, that's disappointing. Hardly heretical at all. ;)

[allan...@gmail.com]

Never took world religions 101.. my problem is what I was originally taught is not exactly correct.  

[andrew vecsey]

As I was thinking of moral compasses, I wanted to find out what the various religions had to say about that. As a start, I looked it up on Wikipedia.

I cut and pasted the trlrvant paragraph that I want to share with all of you. 

Relationship between religion and morality

Within the wide range of ethical traditions, religious traditions co-exist with secular value frameworks such as humanism, utilitarianism, and others. There are many types of religious values. Modern monotheistic religions, such as Islam, Judaism, Christianity, and to a certain degree others such as Sikhism, define right and wrong by the laws and rules set forth by their respective gods and as interpreted by religious leaders within the respective faith. Polytheistic religious traditions tend to be less absolute. For example, within Buddhism, the intention of the individual and the circumstances should be accounted for to determine if an action is right or wrong.^[9] A further disparity between the morals of religious traditions is pointed out by Barbara Stoler Miller, who states that, in Hinduism, "practically, right and wrong are decided according to the categories of social rank, kinship, and stages of life. For modern Westerners, who have been raised on ideals of universality and egalitarianism, this relativity of values and obligations is the aspect of Hinduism most difficult to understand".^[10]

According to Stephen Gaukroger, "It was generally assumed in the 17th century that religion provided the unique basis for morality, and that without religion, there could be no morality."^[11] This view slowly shifted over time. In 1690, Pierre Bayle asserted that religion "is neither necessary nor sufficient for morality."^[12] Modern sources separate the two concepts. For example, The Westminster Dictionary of Christian Ethics says that,

For many religious people, morality and religion are the same or inseparable; for them either morality is part of religion or their religion is their morality. For others, especially for nonreligious people, morality and religion are distinct and separable; religion may be immoral or nonmoral, and morality may or should be nonreligous. Even for some religious people the two are different and separable; they may hold that religion should be moral and morality should be, but they agree that they may not be.^[13]

Richard Paula and Linda Elder of the Foundation for Critical Thinking assert that "most people confuse ethics with behaving in accordance with social conventions, religious beliefs, and the law". They separate the concept of ethics from these topics, stating that

The proper role of ethical reasoning is to highlight acts of two kinds: those which enhance the well-being of others—that warrant our praise—and those that harm or diminish the well-being of others—and thus warrant our criticism.^[14]

They note problems that could arise if religions defined ethics, such as (1) religious practices like "torturing unbelievers or burning them alive" potentially being labeled "ethical", and (2) the lack of a common religious baseline across humanity because religions provide different theological definitions for the idea of sin.^[14] They further note that various documents, such as the UN Declaration of Human Rights lay out "transcultural" and "trans-religious" ethical concepts and principles such as slavery, genocide, torture, sexism, racism, murder, assault, fraud, deceit, and intimidation which require no reliance on religion (or social convention) for us to understand they are "ethically wrong".^[14]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morality_and_religion#Relationship_between_religion_and_morality

[facilitator]

I concur with Chris on this one, and am surprised as well Allan that you don't live up to the moniker.  And Allan, for the record, there is no Biblical record of Jews building pyramids.  The context is they made bricks.  Just as there is a common error that Adam shared an apple.  Artistically historical but never accurate.  

[allan...@gmail.com]

You keep saying that.   Then prove I am not a heretic. The other way around might be easier. . Either way have fun.

[allan...@gmail.com]

Very Good RP..

[allan...@gmail.com]

Àh Tony the Cork again has spoken. Again like Chris prove you are right..

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Évitez; assassiner, le viol et l'esclavage des autres
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: "'facilitator' via \"Minds Eye\"" <mind...@googlegroups.com>
To: mind...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, 06 Feb 2015 12:48 AM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye religionçv

[archytas]

I was waiting for the cunning Tony.  Obi-wan Kenobi is a management trick, like Poga-Oke (more or less 'fool-proofing).  I understand it materialises the St Michael.

You are right.  Chimps do some basic season worship and scrub-jays hold funerals.  Religion origins long before the book.

[archytas]

I agree with Wikipedia.

[polly skid]

Well, i know most people know that religion is more than the sacred texts, mixed with culture , but it doesnt stop them from defending their religion... I mean, if one hs to defend religion, you might as well defend all religions. people in my class , they might have a sound sociological historical understanding of things, but if it comes to  criticism of Hinduism exceeding a certain small limit they become touchy... Plus i hate how its all around.. Esp where i live, sort of alienates me...

On Feb 6, 2015 1:31 AM, "Gabby" <gabb...@gmail.com> wrote:

Here in Europe we usually speak of the three book religions, meaning Jews, Christians, Muslims. I guess we all more or less know that the religion we were born into did not come into effect with the book being read to us but with a life style that can be explained by our long history described in the books. Of course there was meaningful life before and after the fixation of certain narratives in the books, but controlling the other or excercising power over the other is easier when you can define what the same page is you want others to be on. What about religion is you don't like?

[polly skid]

Why are there two threads of religion?

[archytas]

Religion to me is like being on the same page of Alice in Wonderland, whilst trying to plot a course to Mars, or reading of turning the other cheek in infantry training with Genghis already scouting our side of the river.  Paedophiles in the priesthood, swing some incense, learn to take the genocidal and chronic statements about women not literally.  This is life under the pheromones of the slave ant queen and the Inquisition of hive hygiene.

I tortured Allan the other day, with a 45 minute video of a chronic female patroniser telling us to adhere to a philosophy good if you are a slave or in a POW camp. She works at Yale, where economists learn to build the slave society and special camps.  Could have been worse, old friend, as I'd just read Numbers 31.  Well worth a watch, I'm sure Allan will agree, if you are terrorised by the thought a shop might not have broccoli when you have put it on your shopping list.  You have to stop worrying about things beyond the remit of self, like broccoli supply or economic change (but stick with broccoli shortage, better not let too much reality in).

I'm with Pol on this one, though attending chimp pagan rites and bush-jay funerals in search of some better origin.  The mad and often vile, not-to-be-taken-literally pages to all be on, of an obscure antiquity gewarted to a presence under incense and chanting, to the exclusion of what matters - how like economics - is not for me.  I have an aversion to men in skirts and silly hats, once they start asking me for money for good causes they never eradicate.

Getting down to a ritual seasonal dance with the chimps, perhaps with Gabby scoffing at my lack of primal skill, or wondering if scrub-jays feel sorrow in my sombre remembrance and fellowship on loss, is more my religious scene.  I hope a jubilee and launch of a modern world is coming in religious fashion, aware of the Gnosis of the Cathar hurling herself into the pit-fire made by loving Catholics in the hope nothingness is better than this hell on Earth.  Religion was once about freedom from debt.  Like everything with origin, it is noble and ignoble.

Tony's quest in hermeneutics (a common word amongst my criminal brethren, lest Gabby hear privilege) for original meaning - no apple, no snake, yet a talking serpent - dies in sacred book that may not be original in any sense his art achieves (how is the latest coming?).  What is religion in primitive societies we have been able to witness in the 'world until yesterday' and our own history not written by sycophantic charlatans copying their own past in misogynist language not to be taken literally in the future?

Don't look, whatever you do.  It spoils that selfish bliss of the embraced paradox of ignorance on the same page.  The Church of England, now run by a businessman who knows the business case for female bishops, wanted its tithes paid in the great recession.  Our fascists were mobilised to prevent evictions. Sometimes, one must choose a lesser evil.  How did the religionists not know their own vile behaviour, when a few (presumably equally bemused) stout lads could see the rotten core?  Religion might be many useful things (Molly's therapy is an example, Lee's 'seeking', Allan's 'conservative heresy).  These lights are sadly hidden under a bushel.

My thanks to Allan for 'sending over some Dutch-accented chimps' to Scotland.  Initially, all was lost in translation in their communication with my fellow Scottish Pagans, but the lads and lasses soon converted to our local religion and language.  Humans lack their language skills and abilities in getting on in diversity.  The chimps are now rejecting the religion of the book in guttural Glaswegian.  It seems they prefer apples to promises from the sacred same page.  Bless their little cotton socks, they have asked me to commission something really arty from Tony they can eat, while they paint the scenarios I relate.  The vicar pops by to play ball games with them, as he did in recognising me as a hopeless case for indoctrination other than as an opening batsman. 

[archytas]

Only one here Pol.  Hopefully, religion is falling apart like my dog walking coat?

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[archytas]

Keeping it short Pol, I feel very much this way.  The work of Norbert Elias (plenty free on google) on "manners" might help.  Essentially, we are all talking in a threatening environment.

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[allan...@gmail.com]

I know what you mean. The worsening the problem when people deliberately attck belief in mean spirit to get a reaction.  A non religion based attack of Chris saying that what i say is non heretical... a will hidden attack on beliefs meant to get a rise.
Actually I would like to see them backup their words with proof. And there is enough in the ME archives to more tgan adequately prove I am spiritual heretic so I am not worried. Tony de cork wants the same thing. Giving him the monicker of "de cork" us heretical because it breaks the rules of ME.
Personally I like a lot of the spiritual thoughts of Hinduism.  What I personally don't like is the heavy usage of drugs involved. But that does not invalidate what was said.
Directly attacking a persons belief is not good. And my sigline does just that amnd is meant and designed to directly the core beliefs of Islamic fundementalism. Murder, Rape, and Enslavement of others in Allah's name is a direct attack on my personal moral core beliefs.  It also attacks the morality of tge majority of the world. . The solution the world has been taking is to respond in kind commit murder.
Am I right by trying to stop the murder rape and enslavement of other by attacking core beliefs. I think I am and I know my soul is fully accountable foor what I have done..
What you end up with is the most mind numbing and frightening answer of all when you examine beliefs sincere . "I don't know.

"


تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Évitez; assassiner, le viol et l'esclavage des autres
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: polly skid <r.fre...@gmail.com>
To: mind...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, 06 Feb 2015 7:02 AM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye religion

[allan...@gmail.com]

A letter  typo

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Évitez; assassiner, le viol et l'esclavage des autres
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: polly skid <r.fre...@gmail.com>
To: mind...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, 06 Feb 2015 7:04 AM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye religion

[gabbydott]

The trick is not to bring them into a situation where they feel they need to defend their way of living! Then they are the aliens. A wicked game indeed.

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[gabbydott]

Ah, thank you for the authoritative reframing! A hero in need is a hero indeed! :)

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[archytas]

Some religionists say atheists can't have any morality.  I'm not actually atheist, but struggle to see how those on bended knee or prostrated in homosocial line East, with beliefs on no evidence can be trusted at all.  Of course, it isn't that simple.  Many people can put religion aside when making other judgements.  Indeed, there are atheist zealots, a rather religious matter.  Some of the most religious people I met were Iranian Marxists.

Attacking the views of others is widely misunderstood.  The most common reason given by people in primitive tribes for war is revenge.  The origin of who did what to whom can never be pinned down.  Hitch-hiker has a great example of the amassing of a great battle fleet that hurtles toward Earth after two great galactic systems discover their war of aeons was actually started when a comment that flooped in from us and was misinterpreted as a foul comment about one of their mothers.  Due to a massive mistake of scale, the joint fleet was swallowed by a small brown dog.  One attacks the views of others by putting up a 'Nazi scum' poster in 1930's Germany - do our prohibitions extend to making that wrong?  Ad hominem is not always a fallacy (check the term 'eristic').

Private behaviour, whether in churches or bondage clubs, seems of little import.  The religious problem is essentially one of the public domain.  I would welcome the spread of a religion of genuine peace and mutual respect. We lack a paradigm case of this and don't know enough about the many paradigm cases of the opposite, like the weird and tiny quasi-religious group that became the Nazis and other foul history of Numbers 31 in practice from Jihad, Crusade and imperialism generally.  All had religious support.  Is to mention history to attack personal belief?    

On Friday, February 6, 2015 at 8:23:40 AM UTC, Allan Heretic wrote:

A letter  typo

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Évitez; assassiner, le viol et l'esclavage des autres
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: polly skid <r.fre...@gmail.com>
To: mind...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, 06 Feb 2015 7:04 AM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye religion

Why are there two threads of religion?

On Feb 6, 2015 11:32 AM, "polly skid" <r.fre...@gmail.com> wrote:

Well, i know most people know that religion is more than the sacred texts, mixed with culture , but it doesnt stop them from defending their religion... I mean, if one hs to defend religion, you might as well defend all religions. people in my class , they might have a sound sociological historical understanding of things, but if it comes to  criticism of Hinduism exceeding a certain small limit they become touchy... Plus i hate how its all around.. Esp where i live, sort of alienates me...

On Feb 6, 2015 1:31 AM, "Gabby" <gabb...@gmail.com> wrote:

Here in Europe we usually speak of the three book religions, meaning Jews, Christians, Muslims. I guess we all more or less know that the religion we were born into did not come into effect with the book being read to us but with a life style that can be explained by our long history described in the books. Of course there was meaningful life before and after the fixation of certain narratives in the books, but controlling the other or excercising power over the other is easier when you can define what the same page is you want others to be on. What about religion is you don't like?

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[gabbydott]

To me it is obvious how Allan cannot "resist" you and how you yourself are caught up in your historical debts. And I know that I shouldn't be saying that for it makes me sound even more Mutti.

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[archytas]

'May have a sound sociological historical understanding' - wowser, wish I was teaching them!

On Friday, February 6, 2015 at 10:13:18 AM UTC, Gabby wrote:

The trick is not to bring them into a situation where they feel they need to defend their way of living! Then they are the aliens. A wicked game indeed.

Am Freitag, 6. Februar 2015 schrieb polly skid :

Well, i know most people know that religion is more than the sacred texts, mixed with culture , but it doesnt stop them from defending their religion... I mean, if one hs to defend religion, you might as well defend all religions. people in my class , they might have a sound sociological historical understanding of things, but if it comes to  criticism of Hinduism exceeding a certain small limit they become touchy... Plus i hate how its all around.. Esp where i live, sort of alienates me...

On Feb 6, 2015 1:31 AM, "Gabby" <gabb...@gmail.com> wrote:

Here in Europe we usually speak of the three book religions, meaning Jews, Christians, Muslims. I guess we all more or less know that the religion we were born into did not come into effect with the book being read to us but with a life style that can be explained by our long history described in the books. Of course there was meaningful life before and after the fixation of certain narratives in the books, but controlling the other or excercising power over the other is easier when you can define what the same page is you want others to be on. What about religion is you don't like?

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[archytas]

Sadly, dear one, I understand that Mutti would be more likely to take me to a rugby match than you, which I'm sure you know rather puts me off the game despite last night's thrilling 22 - all draw,  Allan and I are merely the horse in a production of Don Quixote, taking turns at the front in our democratic pantomime.  Mutti is a shoe-in for the windmill.  In these times of Mollygon, we will have to re-write Sancho Panza to accommodate your dagger and less down to earth act.  Tony is the only one with enough metal to make the Don's lance.  The horse is the only one who knows what is going on, and of course, the front is not designated to the one of us in a sane period but by lot,

It would be obvious to you, with your special knowledge of the characters' intentionality.  Allan and I merely act out the lines we are given and have not met the author, unless this is you, which looks rather likely given how well you claim to know our inner motivations.  With Moll off playing the lead in the Wizard of Oz in her plan to re-establish an international bi-metallic standard paradox and embrace your direction. 

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[gabbydott]

Yes, we should add the boys' favorite sport to our list of big worldwide religions. But I would always argue against re establishing some sort of animal cult. You are not the victim of the ant scenario that you created here, I could underline all text passages where you draw Allan into your lice business. And I don't see that Molly is gone. This is the communicative pattern she has chosen and that fits her cultural background. There was no communication when the blue eye came, there is no communication that the blue eye is gone. I have gotten used to it by not expecting anything else than this here. The power of projection is in full effect.

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[facilitator]

So let me be clear on this Allan so as not to transgress your mental ecosysytem. If a person questions your written explanations that is to be considered an "attack"?

[archytas]

Soccer is indeed a religion - run by a corrupt German step-ladder behind the iron curtain of Swiss corruption and banking secrecy, followed by men who could stand being in a crowd with Mutti, dreaming of being next in line for her conquest, after Greece.  American Football probably counts, as the Yanks don't do anything except religion, even teaching biology, and it is international now they are at war in 150 countries.  Rugby League hardly counts, being played only by a few brave souls of stout heart and mind who can resist their mothers' pleas to wear crash helmets and shoulder pads.  It's more Iron John for real men stuff, without Jenkin's camp (fire I hasten to add).

Yes, you would always argue against.  There is potentially a Gabbygon, but it is unstable and pulls itself apart, leaving only underlined lice of its own creation.  Molly said she was going, did and then came back saying she wasn't really here yet and hasn't been since.  I can model the algebra of this from a non-commutative image, involving the Cheshire Cat, so there is a Mollygon.  I will need more expertise in complex negative curves of the twisted-sister manifold to model the Gabbygon.  Chris may be able to market your lice and underlining in the wrong place business.

Your role in Jupiter Ascending, long predicted by Allan, is sweet.  Given your outshone co-star is half man half dog, I am not sure you should be talking of animal cults in dissuasion, though the chimps do not regard themselves as one, lacking corrupting ancient scrolls.  

Intentionality is key.  In consistency, you cannot have your problem with Allan's sig line and the desire to think the worst of others in the same set.  Though humour allows, dare I say it, such paradoxical embrace for future resolution.

[facilitator]

Religion is a belief system regardless of the props and where the congregants meet.  That belief system is endemically dependent on things not provable otherwise what would be the need?  

I will listen to any man who is willing to die for his/her faith.  I will never listen to a man who is willing to kill for his/her faith.

[archytas]

With Allan you need to get the first strike, defensive retaliation carrier launched long before he briefs his keyboard fingers.

[archytas]

Good points Facil.  They imply tentative faith.

[gabbydott]

It is your drawing the line between Allan's intention and my expected consistency in embracing everything that follows your logic and your time schedule that gives me your cat status. All my talking to Allan about the offensive character of the reproduction of racist stereotypes was very well heard by him - to you it sounded like the typical purring you are surrounded with and which means feed me to you. There will be no resolution only waiting until this is over.

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[allan...@gmail.com]

Nope

[archytas]

Nope - the cat is too smart for both us us.  I suppose being good at languages encourages the privileged to dismiss simple speech as requiring 'sophisticated' further interpretation from the half-learning of pop-psychology and stereotyping fantasies - this latter being a simple construct to provide comfort to the goodie-wannabe while she is doing it, as we all do.  Kierkegaard was apt to tell Christians they could not be such because of what they do.  The elitist always likes the secrecy of her own decision-making and adherence to the proper procedures in place, against the outcomes of rendering the victims supposedly under help invisible until some loud whistle breaks loose and we see a smug set of bureaucrats singing from the same politically correct page and being paid very well for their dull voices to hide the screams of the victims and write new legislation on the lessons learned about loud whistles.  

Nah! We could do with more direct talking as Pol says.  The violence has been done long before we start talking.  This is a very old trick of control.  Ungrateful as you would be, I'd rescue you from the cannibals, though I'd be open to argument I'd got this the wrong way round on the grounds of stereotyping.

Religion is obviously (to some of us) about what we don't know.  It does not though, have to rest on what we know are fables and excuses to cover up false history, lousy priests - or those in other institutions who let the innocent down.  We have very serious problems we can't discuss in the open for fear of offending against the cry of 'racist' and people who can absolve themselves in smiling sisterhoods of prayer and language control.  

[polly skid]

What do you think is meant by eternal? For us humans.. Thats another difficult topic... Are some people just religious? I mean is it their nature... See children are very religious..ive seen that everywhere... I was a religious kid... But then.. I just grew out of it... I know my sister was religious.. I cant say if she still is... Who has stayed religious into their adulthood.. I would like to know... My mother is one.. But im not counting her... My father has become religious... Rituals and all.. Now that he is feeling his age or something.. Thats what i think at least.. I never thought he would turn out to be religious.... What is it really?.... That explains it... Or.. Don't you think it's difficult to raise a child without the idea of God? Is it? I don't know...

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[gabbydott]

Hahaha, I was just going to correct Neil that you are not saying we could do more direct talking, but that you are doing it ( you practice it) - and now you are doing it again! :)

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[archytas]

My kids grew up without god stuff, though asked about what they got at school until they were about ten.  We did think about doing the church bit to get them to a better secondary school, but decided this was immoral and probably racist (most other parents were concerned to avoid schools with large Asian contingents).  The girls opted out of religious education and assembly hymn singing.  One learned Russian in the free time, the other probably smoked behind the bike sheds (she hated school and has done well at uni since).   

Genes are fairly eternal and from the atheist point of view, Karl Popper's World 3 is relatively eternal - the ideas that last.  I don't really pray with chimps Pol - that's just to tease Gabby.  I think there might be a better future with more of the decent things people can do in it.  Some better bits of religion might be about imagining that and helping folk cope with normal unhappiness.

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[allan...@gmail.com]

Hoi poli or should I call you kid. Eternal that is one difficult question maybe the definition is the best. Eternal Without beginning or end of existence; always existing. Definitions are a good place to start. Spirituality is a very difficult at best  so common definitions are very important.

Religious people for the most part are very good. Most trying to live sincere lives. And in accordance to traditional beliefs.  Some of which can be very interesting. From what I have seen of Hindu festivals they could be very interesting and fun. All I can really say is enjoy  .. I don't think taking part requires belief. If you are looking to find spirituality a good starting point is your native beliefs. There you strive to understand.  You actually have a lot of support.
The faith of a child is a beautiful sight to behold. Being religious as a child does not exclude theism. A sound belief in a personal God is what theism is about.

My Dad was raised without beliefs and became R Catholic after he met my mother. His religious beliefs lasted and guided his entire lifetime. He was 94 at the time of his transition. His spiruality was really amazing. I was proud of my Dad and his beliefs. In hard times they were a guiding light.. I always knew he believed and that is a lot.

Don't count out rituals. They can help you focus and get you out of the self that traps you. You will find over time therevae some amazing similarities among beliefs.
If you want to talk privately my email address is open.

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Évitez; assassiner, le viol et l'esclavage des autres
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: polly skid <r.fre...@gmail.com>
To: mind...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, 06 Feb 2015 8:23 PM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye religion

[archytas]

Gosh Gabbs, I nearly split my tea!  Just as I was thinking you didn't know of google translate's 'pleasant button'. 

On Friday, February 6, 2015 at 7:55:14 PM UTC, Gabby wrote:

Hahaha, I was just going to correct Neil that you are not saying we could do more direct talking, but that you are doing it ( you practice it) - and now you are doing it again! :)

Am Freitag, 6. Februar 2015 schrieb polly skid :

What do you think is meant by eternal? For us humans.. Thats another difficult topic... Are some people just religious? I mean is it their nature... See children are very religious..ive seen that everywhere... I was a religious kid... But then.. I just grew out of it... I know my sister was religious.. I cant say if she still is... Who has stayed religious into their adulthood.. I would like to know... My mother is one.. But im not counting her... My father has become religious... Rituals and all.. Now that he is feeling his age or something.. Thats what i think at least.. I never thought he would turn out to be religious.... What is it really?.... That explains it... Or.. Don't you think it's difficult to raise a child without the idea of God? Is it? I don't know...

On Feb 6, 2015 11:40 PM, "archytas" <nwt...@gmail.com> wrote:

Nope - the cat is too smart for both us us.  I suppose being good at languages encourages the privileged to dismiss simple speech as requiring 'sophisticated' further interpretation from the half-learning of pop-psychology and stereotyping fantasies - this latter being a simple construct to provide comfort to the goodie-wannabe while she is doing it, as we all do.  Kierkegaard was apt to tell Christians they could not be such because of what they do.  The elitist always likes the secrecy of her own decision-making and adherence to the proper procedures in place, against the outcomes of rendering the victims supposedly under help invisible until some loud whistle breaks loose and we see a smug set of bureaucrats singing from the same politically correct page and being paid very well for their dull voices to hide the screams of the victims and write new legislation on the lessons learned about loud whistles.  

Nah! We could do with more direct talking as Pol says.  The violence has been done long before we start talking.  This is a very old trick of control.  Ungrateful as you would be, I'd rescue you from the cannibals, though I'd be open to argument I'd got this the wrong way round on the grounds of stereotyping.

Religion is obviously (to some of us) about what we don't know.  It does not though, have to rest on what we know are fables and excuses to cover up false history, lousy priests - or those in other institutions who let the innocent down.  We have very serious problems we can't discuss in the open for fear of offending against the cry of 'racist' and people who can absolve themselves in smiling sisterhoods of prayer and language control.  

On Friday, February 6, 2015 at 4:34:17 PM UTC, Allan Heretic wrote:

Nope

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Évitez; assassiner, le viol et l'esclavage des autres
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

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[gabbydott]

Leave your dirty old fingers nicely here in public, Allan! And let Pol find whatever she wants to find! Hear me?

You still owe me a very huge apology for all your groundless attacking me!!! Concentrate on that to keep you busy and don't hope for your buddies being "distracted" as usual!

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[archytas]

Very huge?  

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[gabbydott]

You hear me Allan!

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[allan...@gmail.com]

To my knowledge I have never attacked you. When you jump in screaming someone is off topic when they in fact are not off topic.. You have a problem .  a serious problem..
I think you need to ask poli science kidhis gender.. If my memory serves me right he is the son of an army officer.

Now my dirty little fingers? To just what are you referring to? I am not the one who lists adult only sites in group email.

Are you dictating what group emails I answer. Or respond to..  When I offered to answer any private emails privately is actually open to any member and I do respond privately for the simple those responses are none of the groups business because they are private.

I can take what you said as a direct threat. You really need to pull in your fangs..

[allan...@gmail.com]

Go see you GP Gabby.. .(I will remain polite.)

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[facilitator]

On Friday, February 6, 2015 at 2:23:16 PM UTC-5, pol.science kid wrote:

What do you think is meant by eternal?

"Eternal" is a dimension that is neither limited by time nor space but nevertheless has value assigned to it. An atom was first derived calling it the "Uncuttable piece". Eternal is the reciprocal of that in that it is the unhindered piece. Many people think in terms of the cosmos being unlimited or eternal but what we perceive as space is actually confined by the eternal.  In other words, the cosmos may in fact be limited.

 

For us humans.. Thats another difficult topic...

As humans we can only speculate our relationship to eternity.  If we are eternal we cannot offer proof but only an ideal.  We have to rely on factors that limit that reasoning to the temporal.  Some will adamantly claim they have proof but can only pass on information and not a "delivery system".

 

Are some people just religious?

Yes, Humans by nature postulate odds and those odds transfer to speculation and hope.  Hope becomes faith and faith engorges itself on something other than "self" because the self is limited.   When we are children we say "Why" alot, when we age we lose the significant others who can answer the "Why" and so we begin the task of choosing a higher knowledge. This may be an implanted instinct, or some believe it to be a matter of evolution.  "What are the odds that we as a group can corner that wooly mammoth"? 

 

I mean is it their nature... See children are very religious..ive seen that everywhere... I was a religious kid... But then.. I just grew out of it... I know my sister was religious.. I cant say if she still is... Who has stayed religious into their adulthood.. I would like to know... My mother is one.. But im not counting her... My father has become religious... Rituals and all.. Now that he is feeling his age or something.. Thats what i think at least.. I never thought he would turn out to be religious.... What is it really?

Religion is simply a set of beliefs.   I can be a religious non-theist or have a belief in a higher power or aliens if I so choose.   

 

.... That explains it... Or.. Don't you think it's difficult to raise a child without the idea of God? Is it? I don't know...

Children can be raised without the idea of parents. Happens in orphanages and it is devastating.  So yes, they can be raised without the idea of god.  Is giving your children the concept of god important?  What is important is that children are given honesty.   

[polly skid]

Sorry allan, my dad is indeed an army man, but im not his son.. Ha ha.. I just wanted to pursue this gender or should i say sex anonymity for as long as i could hoping people would imagine me as anyone they want to.. But gabby is my friend on Facebook and a few others as well..

[polly skid]

It would fascinate me to meet children who don't think about God, i think they have the most capacity for faith. Of course it might be explained psychologically... But still, it just amazes me. I had a teacher who became an atheist after his dad got cancer... Lots of people people with belief sort of feel cheated when bad things happen... Would you say they never had belief in the first place..    Its election day in my city today. Random information.

[allan...@gmail.com]

That's nice to know.  It never really mattered and still doesn't as I enjoyed you thoughts over the years. At least I can use the correct gender. I have a friend Roshmi on Facebook. And she is extremely knowledgeable in Hinduism. Wanted to get her in the group. But she only does Facebook. Any way I am glad you are here.

[archytas]

Must admit I thought you was a boy Pol - sort of loutish but nice.  When you have daughters it can be easy to wish the world more male just for a bit of peace and quiet.  How did they pull off this "hidden tits" ruse in Shakespeare's day with all male actors?  I hate it as a dramatic ruse, though it was good in Blackadder.  Your questions are like initial statements of a possible research programme, mostly concerning one of my daughter's endless probing of what she was being told as potential bullshit.  'Are protons real like Mr Regan says'?  She had religion as a complete crock early on.

People give up to one religion or another all the time under threat.  Problems in the Balkans, say, are not really ethnic but to do with conversions to Islam under Ottoman rule.  Yet others refuse to convert and die or carry on in secret.  Scary questions might be about what we will die or be so passionate about rot.  I am supposed to be proud of being British, but our history is a mix of little good and plenty foul.  Plus I'd just as easily be different as the product of another culture,  More "religious" stuff in nationality demands.  We might be very different if we had none of the religious stuff in us.  Loads of philosophers have noticed most people don't act in accordance with faith and creed.  Looking out of the window seems enough.

But I also think religion is like your gender 'scam'.  It just isn't what it presents itself as and is some kind of attractor for social construction.  Deep down it looks insect to me.  And some people are so full of it and empty of other knowledge they will never have seen how complex insect societies can be when they get insulted by me saying this.

We have vigilantes about on the net attracting paedophiles through false messages.  I think religion acts a bit like this on people produced without much hope in the material society - and that if we could be honest, we'd find this is most of us.  I'm sitting on the edge of my bed typing this, with Max running up and down stairs as a gentle hint it is walk time.

Get off the white horse Gabby and Allan you stop rising to the bait.  It was easier with daughters.  They bothered to learn their fighting upset Daddy and decided to stop when they saw me cry.  So who is godless?  My daughters responding to me, or you two religionist "carers" sparing like seven year olds?   

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[allan...@gmail.com]

My aunts name is Polly (Pauline) and she was an army nurse.  Still alive and 96 right now.
I think the problem your teacher experienced is unrealistic expectations in religion and belief.. This is a problem created by the teacher of religion (all of them).
I may look at a lot of ideas and have seen a lot of things over the years.. Some very strange. To me God as I understand him (non-gender) I love the interaction with my understanding of God.  ..it has been a amazing experience.

[gabbydott]

I read your "hate to inform" as an attack without any linkage to what I actually said. Now I am used to your rude behaviour and don't take it personal, and others who don't complain as well, I guess. What really pisses me off is how your ModGod Patrons stick their heads in the sand for conveniency reasons.

Am Donnerstag, 5. Februar 2015 schrieb :

¿book? The Gita and Vedas are not books? They have been around a lot longer than the tora has been.
Hate to inform you Gabby but the history you have been reading is a great deal of fantasy. Modern archeology is not being able to verify the stories told.  To the point I am wondering what really when on with the Jews in Egypt?  It was not building pyramids because it turns out they were built by labor unions with health care..

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Évitez; assassiner, le viol et l'esclavage des autres
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----

From: Gabby <gabb...@gmail.com>
To: mind...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thu, 05 Feb 2015 9:01 PM
Subject: Mind's Eye religion

Here in Europe we usually speak of the three book religions, meaning Jews, Christians, Muslims. I guess we all more or less know that the religion we were born into did not come into effect with the book being read to us but with a life style that can be explained by our long history described in the books. Of course there was meaningful life before and after the fixation of certain narratives in the books, but controlling the other or excercising power over the other is easier when you can define what the same page is you want others to be on. What about religion is you don't like?

[archytas]

You seem to be taking things far too literally for a religionist Gabbs.  Surely one should take the prognostications of our Lord Allan with a pinch of salt or in that symbolic reception that makes 'women are worthless' into anti-sexism?  The sand you mention may be full of visions of Gabby, but I haven't looked, not liking to be indiscreet.  

It was only the other day I realised your plan of attack is to say nothing at all pertinent, other than something else should be discussed to different rules (which I probably agree), blame others for saying more than you and not what you want, leave a trail of slime for ad hom retribution attraction and return to your shell.  I am sure you are telling a complex fairy story (and what better character than a grumpy silver beater talking to ants in his sub-basement?) and have taken on various roles in sisterly protection, man beating and room hygiene inspection for the best of reasons.  Soon, my character will suffer conversion and realise just how important it is to be on your same page.

Pol made some good points.  Were you sent in by the religionist syndicate to prevent discussion of them?

On Saturday, February 7, 2015 at 1:26:18 PM UTC, Gabby wrote:

I read your "hate to inform" as an attack without any linkage to what I actually said. Now I am used to your rude behaviour and don't take it personal, and others who don't complain as well, I guess. What really pisses me off is how your ModGod Patrons stick their heads in the sand for conveniency reasons.

Am Donnerstag, 5. Februar 2015 schrieb :

¿book? The Gita and Vedas are not books? They have been around a lot longer than the tora has been.
Hate to inform you Gabby but the history you have been reading is a great deal of fantasy. Modern archeology is not being able to verify the stories told.  To the point I am wondering what really when on with the Jews in Egypt?  It was not building pyramids because it turns out they were built by labor unions with health care..


تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Évitez; assassiner, le viol et l'esclavage des autres
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: Gabby <gabb...@gmail.com>
To: mind...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thu, 05 Feb 2015 9:01 PM
Subject: Mind's Eye religion

Here in Europe we usually speak of the three book religions, meaning Jews, Christians, Muslims. I guess we all more or less know that the religion we were born into did not come into effect with the book being read to us but with a life style that can be explained by our long history described in the books. Of course there was meaningful life before and after the fixation of certain narratives in the books, but controlling the other or excercising power over the other is easier when you can define what the same page is you want others to be on. What about religion is you don't like?

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[allan...@gmail.com]

As regard to the reference  you gave..

most histories of ancient Israel no longer consider information                     the Exodus recoverable or even relevant to the story of Israel's emergence due to the complete lack of direct evidence for its historicity.

That is from wiki.. No me,

That has nothing to do with the vicious threats you made against me.

You hear me Allan!

Do you want me to pull up the other ones?

Discussions involving religions an beliefs tend to get very intense. And you can not take Intensity you have a problem.  But that is no reason for Hatred.

This did not start there.  You were offended when I encouraged Polly to look into her native beliefs. And you were offended.. Polly is a very smart young lady capable of making up her own mind.. I like young people, some are extremely intelligent and have interesting points as well as interesting questions.

And for your information I have grand daughters older than Polly is..

Are you trying to convert Polly to your brand of Christianity?

[archytas]

I'm off to walk the dogs.  Could you two please bang your heads together somewhere else?  Gabby - you could start a thread on one of the topics of great interest you have hinted at for years.  Allan - play with your teddy bear.

Neil

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[allan...@gmail.com]

Lord Allan my arse I am just a grumpy old silver banger.. 

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Évitez; assassiner, le viol et l'esclavage des autres
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----

From: archytas <nwt...@gmail.com>
To: mind...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sat, 07 Feb 2015 4:15 PM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye religionçv

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[allan...@gmail.com]

Gabby doesn't want me playing with it..  LOL .. Watch out for the ant troops..

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[archytas]

Now we have your admission on the teedy bear (originally a typo but how apt), I'll send Noddy and Big Ears round to effect the rescue.

[Gabby]

Here is where YOU introduced the HATE to this thread and topic, Allan:

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/minds-eye/FMi0b9KMVPA/7h-o_M_SBW0J

Otherwise, Schnuckipuckis, your embarrassing behaviour shows how little the same page reading is of any help if the readers don't read what is written there but only see themselves reflected in an ongoing transformation process. That's one of the reasons why I prefer the common ground or basis to the same page metaphor that is so liked in this group here.

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[archytas]

You are in trouble now Allan.  Terms of endearment!  Schnuckipuckis (sweetie pie) - though four and twenty blackbirds were reported missing near Berlin recently and baked into a pie.  Do you have a tarot oven Gabbs, and will he fit?

[gabbydott]

I suggest you let me handle my delusions as I let you handle yours. Deal?

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[allan...@gmail.com]

Really so you are admitting you are delusional Gabby.  That is a make great stride forward in mental health.

[archytas]

Deal the cards then me dearie (not heard that one from an English mouth since 1960), though there's still an excellently non-gendered 'me ducks' around Stoke.  A packt then duckie, we might say.  Mutual mirror-reflected counter transference it is then.  The Blackbirds you shot down were probably US spy planes and fair game in my delusional view.  Mutti is out and about making pacts.  Must be the season.

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[archytas]

You just had to say that Allan, didn't you?  And there was me, deluding peace had broken out and we wouldn't be all over it like a rash and cover that with the cheap suit of war.  I am exasperated with you old boy, though this is quite a good feeling.  We have our own Gabby in Britain, playing the role of Philomena Cunk, a wonderful character who thinks the Turing Shroud invented computers.  

[allan...@gmail.com]

Sorry,,   some thing are just to hard resist.
Trí mo locht trí mo locht is mórdhíobháil

[archytas]

As in 'have you shot that second head yet', perhaps, though I couldn't possibly say that - oops!

[gabbydott]

This is not the deal I suggested. Must be the season.

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[archytas]

We could have a non-aggression pact Gabbs, though these have a poor history.  I would want to keep my defensive first strike promodo retaliation submarines on alert and any agreement between us would leave the 'Dutch' and 'Pol protection' programmes likely to flare up.  It is the season. Warrington beat Salford 22 - 8.  The new me you have inculcated didn't go lest you think me barbarian, though the old one is deluded he saw an excellent game and was impressed by our new Fijian prop forward's resistance to retaliation under the Devils' provocation.  My delusions and sure yours give a damn.  A bientot, as I'm sure the French feel like saying to Mutti before she sits down with them to prevent the standard American plan to pick up the best booty after a late entry to war in Yorp.

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[gabbydott]

Please check who you are talking to and where, Allan. I was talking to Neil. If you want to I can forward your message to the right addressee.

NEIL, THIS ONE IS FOR YOU! ALLAN MEANS YOU!

[archytas]

No need to shout dear heart, I've turned the ear-trumpet up.

[RP Singh]

Allan we must live with a spirit of surrender to God. We should accept the bad with the good , knowing that we are experiencing a pre-written history, knowing that things come and go and leave an imprint on our souls. Even in the worst of conditions there should be a smile on our face, as whatever we endure is always an experience we are bound to.

[allan...@gmail.com]

RP lol. History is not pre-written.. But if that is your perspective.. Enjoy

[archytas]

there are senses in which RP may be right - though I doubt all history is pre-written.

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[facilitator]

Que sera sera?

[facilitator]

http://youtu.be/Xj4GKWMQVe0

On Sunday, February 8, 2015 at 8:38:25 PM UTC-5, facilitator wrote:

Que sera sera?

[archytas]

Didn't know about Wax Taylor - thanks Tony.  Almost a new language form.  A book by Theodore Rosak called 'Flicker' has the theme and some really wicked jokes.