axis issue rep2

[David Hamilton]

the x axis on my rep2 is violently shaking. It's a physical issue. i dropped down firmware, updated back to 7.0, and reset everything in repg also tested using makerware and onboard build. 

even when i do a level build platform on it it shakes. looks like the extruder moves back and forth as the whole assembly moves from point to point. 

[David Hamilton]

upon further looking, it appears as if all the default points are all jacked up. it doesnt go to the default points. seems to have moved everything over the the right other than the first start point. 

[Jetguy]

David, several (Ok at least 2 in a week) reported this and had fixes
http://groups.google.com/group/makerbot/browse_thread/thread/c0f04f580b7edc1f

You could have a failing stepper cable.

[Jetguy]

The other report http://groups.google.com/group/makerbot/browse_thread/thread/00ebd78dd47d3367


On Jan 21, 12:53 am, Jetguy <barrych...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> David, several (Ok at least 2 in a week) reported this and had fixeshttp://groups.google.com/group/makerbot/browse_thread/thread/c0f04f58...

>
> You could have a failing stepper cable.
>
> On Jan 21, 12:14 am, David Hamilton <dham...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > upon further looking, it appears as if all the default points are all
> > jacked up. it doesnt go to the default points. seems to have moved

> > everything over the the right other than the first start point.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Jetguy]

Yet another Replicator Deuce : http://groups.google.com/group/makerbot/browse_thread/thread/c405c16ddeb82f37

How many failures in what time defined period denotes an issue that
MakerBot should provide an official response on? I think this would be
a good metric to debate.


On Jan 21, 12:55 am, Jetguy <barrych...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> The other reporthttp://groups.google.com/group/makerbot/browse_thread/thread/00ebd78d...

>
> On Jan 21, 12:53 am, Jetguy <barrych...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > David, several (Ok at least 2 in a week) reported this and had fixeshttp://groups.google.com/group/makerbot/browse_thread/thread/c0f04f58...
>
> > You could have a failing stepper cable.
>
> > On Jan 21, 12:14 am, David Hamilton <dham...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > upon further looking, it appears as if all the default points are all
> > > jacked up. it doesnt go to the default points. seems to have moved
> > > everything over the the right other than the first start point.- Hide quoted text -
>

> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[Jetguy]

Thread already buried this morning. I think this is a good topic for
the group to debate and fix some impressions of MakerBot quallity? I
know Makerbot service is great and the machines will be fixed for the
owners. There is no doubt. The question is, is there a point at which
the documentation needs to address this failure mode in the
troubleshooting guide?

The reports are on low hour machines, maybe 2 months old. I get that
with anything, there are a certain number of random failures but this
started looking a lot less random to me?

On Jan 21, 1:13 am, Jetguy <barrych...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Yet another Replicator Deuce :http://groups.google.com/group/makerbot/browse_thread/thread/c405c16d...

[David Hamilton]

Ok, so I found a exposed bit on the wire for the stepper cable. looks like this is where the bend has occurred from the factory installation of the components. (TSK TSK makerbot!)

I am not the fix and solder inclined one of the group, but I will bring in the guy that is tomorrow. 

I will post the update to weather this fixes it or not tomorrow hopefully. 

[Dan Newman]

This is happening enough that MBI likely needs to review their assembly
steps. Either they've been given a batch of damaged cables OR their
assembly process is making this possible for either inexperienced
assembly technicians or for technicians of all experience levels.

Dan

[Jetguy]

Hmm, 2 days ( I'll give them the Holiday so really 1 day) and no
response from Melody or MakerBot.

Something, anything, acknowledge the issue and say "This has been sent
to the engineering and help desk".
In addition, how do you plan to edit the help sections to identify
this issue?

[David Hamilton]

Ok, we spliced the cable and it appears to function normally now.

From what I can tell, the issue isn't assembly. It's cheap cables. The cable is rubbing where the bend is and causing the cable to strip over time. 

Clearly, they need to use a different cable type or provide quick disconnects for this section of cable and have an affordable replacement available. 

It's a known issue now and I hope they provide free replacement cables or upgrades since this is a design fault. 

[Wingcommander whpthomas]

I am wondering if this is something we should look at replacing preemptively. So just to be clear is this the cable on the right that rolls in and out with the gantry? or something inside the sheath at the top?

I am assuming if it is in the pair of ribbon cables on the right that feed into the gantry - one could just cut, press on a ribbon cable connector at each end and insert some heavier duty in the sections that move.

If you happened to have taken any photos of the fix please post.

[Wingcommander whpthomas]

I am wondering if this is something we should look at replacing preemptively. So just to be clear is this the cable on the right that rolls in and out with the gantry? or something inside the sheath at the top?

Sorry please ignore my having a low IQ morning - not enough sleep - obviously its the one on the right - the top one is for the extruder, heater etc.

But still interested in knowing where along the cable these faults are occurring.

[David Hamilton]

I think I figured it out. There's a metal rod that holds the cables in place. The rod has a slit along the entire side. If the replicator is being built and the slit is facing inward then it has the potential to puncture the cable. I think this is what is happening. I don't know why this slit is there but I really do think this is the culprit. If you pull your side off you can see the rod holding the cable I am talking about. 

[Jetguy]

Sounds like they are using a roll pin
http://www.mauersupply.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Roll-Pins.jpg
This would be a common off the shelf part but used in the wrong place
for the wrong job. I would say not good. In fact, just another reason
why to not buy a Makerbot until they get the hint.

[Wingcommander whpthomas]

I would say not good. In fact, just another reason why to not buy a Makerbot until they get the hint.

Capt'n Obvious - not much good if I already own one *squawk* :p

So I took the side off and took a happy snap with a torch to see what was there. On my Replicator 2 there are two zip ties on the ribbon cable, one anchoring the cable to a plastic boss which looks to be intentionally designed for this purpose, the second zip tie is floating free - I guess to hold the pair of ribbon cables together.

Is this any different to what you are seeing David?

[David Hamilton]

I have no loose zip tie. With how the design is you shouldn't have a loose zip tie on yours. There's no need for it. 

And, yes, it's a roll pin. That's what it looks like exactly.  

[Wingcommander whpthomas]

Where is the roll pin on yours located -  I don't see it on mine.

[Wingcommander whpthomas]

So the thing that worries me about this design is that at the point at which the ribbon cables enter the gantry they are benign - constantly bending back and forth at this location will lead to wire fatigue, the little wires inside the sheath will snap, once enough of them are gone, it will arc, burning out the remaining ones and leave an open circuit - is this the place where they are failing or is it somewhere else?

[Wingcommander whpthomas]

So I took the cover off again and carefully snipped and removed that loose zip tie, and found the location of the pin you are talking about - you can't see it in the photo but I see what you mean, mine has the slot facing out, but if it were facing in, the sharp edges could easily damage the ribbon cable.

Jetguy, you are right, this is an unusual use of a high tensile retaining pin. You could almost push a bit of 3mm filament in there instead.

[Jetguy]

Ok, totally understand for those who purchased one. You can call
support and they will send you the same part and it will last just as
long as the first one did. Or, we can use the power of this group, to
educate current owners, band them together, and if they feel they
aren't getting the proper replacement or repair, they can band
together and find a good lawyer and provide some group legal pressure
against MakerBot to make it right. The video of the person flexing the
cable and it arcing should be more than enough amo in any court to for
a judge to bring MakerBot to their knees. If several bots have done
this this early, there are others and it sounds like most of them
won't make it a full year of use anyway. The public should know that.

Sure, we could come up with a repair on our own or mods to reduce the
amount of concentrated stress, but honestly, in this case, not the
right thing to do. You paid $2,200 for a machine that was supposed to
not fail and not arc. That's not what you got.

While I don't think it's a big deal, many, many products that had a
wire break and create a spark have been recalled. I think a lawyer
would tell you the same thing. Hoping it doesn't go there, but
certainly seems possible if somebody pushes it.

The part that really is amazing is, I tried to give MakerBot every
chance to address this early on. I tied to combine the count of people
with the same problem. I tried to indicate how they all seemed to be
the same issue and that it wasn't a random failure. Nothing but
crickets and that !@!@# parrot.

[Wingcommander whpthomas]

What the hell good is a law suit going to do if my bot breaks down - fix it? No con us into taking out a class action and then abscond with the settlement - how in $%^& name is that going to help - I mean really? (no disrespect - I just strongly beg to differ - law suite and threats of law suits are pointless)

Quick Fix

Ok for anyone else with a Replicator 2 who may be concerned about this being a potential point of failure and 1). doesn't want to wait around and see of it is and 2). wait for MakerBot to officially say it is and provide a solution. Here is a cheap, easy to install fix using common off the shelf parts - In fact they came with your bot if you didn't throw them out.

Gantry Ribbon Cable Strain Relief - Instructions (See attached photo)

1. Turn off your bot and take the right hand cover off your Replicator 2
   
2. Pull out the metal pin that holds the ribbon cables in place (you can put this in the zip loc bag with all your old plunger extruder parts :)
   
3. Cut a medium to large size zip tie so you have about an 80mm length.
   
4. With the smooth side up, use some needle nose pliers to crimp both ends down.
   
5. Pull out the ribbons, place the zip tie piece underneath, and insert together, then use a flat end screw driver to gently jam it into place below the ribbon cables.
6. Turn on your bot and run the home script to make sure everything is still good.
7. Replace the cover

All done!

[Jetguy]

I fully agree but at the same time, this machine is in schools and the
hands of people without knowledge or tools. A proper safety recall
would be the way to handle this. They have a Lawyer on staff, let him
advise them on risk.

It's all fine and dandy back in the kit days when this was DIY. They
purposely decided those days were over. They don't want you to fix the
bot. They want you to buy Makercare. If that's the case and this is
clearly a problem, then they need to provide resolution to those who
are not willing to modify their bots. Removing a pin, soldering a
cable, providing strain relief is not something a user should be
doing.

On Jan 23, 8:12 am, Wingcommander whpthomas <m...@henri.net> wrote:
> What the hell good is a law suit going to do if my bot breaks down - fix
> it? No con us into taking out a class action and then abscond with the
> settlement - how in $%^& name is that going to help - I mean really? (no
> disrespect - I just strongly beg to differ - law suite and threats of law
> suits are pointless)
>

> *Quick Fix*

>
> Ok for anyone else with a Replicator 2 who may be concerned about this
> being a potential point of failure and 1). doesn't want to wait around and
> see of it is and 2). wait for MakerBot to officially say it is and provide
> a solution. Here is a cheap, easy to install fix using common off the shelf
> parts - In fact they came with your bot if you didn't throw them out.
>

> *Gantry Ribbon Cable Strain Relief - Instructions (See attached photo)*
>
>    1. Turn off your bot and take the right hand cover off your Replicator 2
>    2. Pull out the metal pin that holds the ribbon cables in place (you can

>    put this in the zip loc bag with all your old plunger extruder parts :)

>    3. Cut a medium to large size zip tie so you have about an 80mm length.
>    4. With the smooth side up, use some needle nose pliers to crimp both
>    ends down.
>    5. Pull out the ribbons, place the zip tie piece underneath, and insert

>    together, then use a flat end screw driver to gently jam it into place
>    below the ribbon cables.

>    6. Turn on your bot and run the home script to make sure everything is
>    still good.
>    7. Replace the cover
>
> All done!
>
>  gantry ribbon strain relief.jpg
> 100KViewDownload

[Wingcommander whpthomas]

...this machine is in schools and the hands of people without knowledge or tools. 

Fair enough, but I guess these guys are in the wait and see / wait for a solution category. Maybe a few bots were built with the pin back the front and now they have corrected that - my Bot's pin had the sharp side facing out, away from the ribbon cables.

MBI may not be a professional outfit with all the QA one would expect from such a company - just a small company trying to make that transition - I am willing to cut them a bit of slack. For instance - I had a warped build plate and the replacement they provided is a big improvement. I am sure if this really is the problem it appears to be, they will provide a fix for it. Or it could be that with the pin the right way around and no strain relief the ribbon cables actually have a high MTBF. Who knows for sure? I just don't want to wait and see.

[Wingcommander whpthomas]

I would add to your instructions:  Using a flame, slightly melt the cut ends to round them off.  Don't over-due it, since it only takes a couple of seconds to round off the sharp points.

Very good point David,

In my case I bent them until the plastic had physical deformation bands in the plastic. The zip tie once installed is also tucked under the gantry frame, so quite out of the way - very little chance of scraping your arm there in day to day use.

[David Hamilton]

     I have not had a great experience with the Replicator 2 in general. It's very frustrating that there's no real software instructions, how to guides, etc...

It really annoys me that slices fail in their own makerware software in the update if you manipulate the skeinforge settings. 

     That being said, I don't think running to a lawyer would solve anyone's problems. Yes, there's issues that need to addressed by Makerbot in a much more timely manner. I've put in two support tickets and haven't heard a thing back from them. One being the issue discussed on this thread. 

     I think people would be a lot happier if Makerbot was much more interactive with the community on a customer service issue/fix level. As it stands right now, I wouldn't order another product from them with the 9 week lead time and unresponsive technical support I have personally received. That's not to say they do not have a decent product, but people will buy a mediocre product backed by great customer support over a good product with terrible customer support.