Slic3r and Kisslicer?

[TobyCWoods]

Well I can't figure Slic3R out at all!  No idea how to use this thing. Does not seem to have an image of the stl only the bottom layer. Not what I would call user friendly... even compared to RepG... and it crashes on me.

Kisslicer... I put in my settings and it generates gcode that RepG no like.

Anybody get Kissllicer to work? it is sure quick, but the images of things made using it do not look nearly as nice as what I'm getting with SF.

[funmakerBart]

Hi, I print a couple of months with KS. I compared the output after fine-tuning between RepG, Slic3r and Kisslicer: at the end it's about the same print quality. You have to take the time to tweak the settings.

Main difference: Slic3r can print multi colored objects and support. Kisslicer one-coulored objects but can print the support with the second extruder (Pro version)

IMO is the support generation of KS superior as well the speed of slicing and the 3D Gcode representation.

But all the slicers have a good and bad side. I decide with each object which slicer is the best for it.

Attached are my 'basic 'settings for the Replicator 1 and the current Beta of KS for Windows 64. Other OS versions are on the KS forum. The same setting files should work with them too. They have to be in the same folder as the KS program.

About the settings; I made them a little more simple for this upload. They all use the firmware flavor "makerbot style" so they can be used with MB firmware as well. Normally I use Sailfish as well the absolute E flavor belonging to that. But MB firmware can't handle G92 E0 commands.

Also: the material settings for PLA, ABS and Nylon should be about right, but measure the filament you use and change the value in KS

Same for the used temperatures for the HPB and extrusion. They can all be set in the Material tab, so no need to adjust the startcode (there are placeholders for that)

There are specific Gcodes attached to each printer setting, I use a little different start/end code. When to be sure, just copy and paste your Gcode you normally use with RepG in the Gcode fields.

For dual extrusion you have to buy the pro KS version (40 dollar or so). The Gcode extruder change for that is based on ReplicatorG40 with the new toolhead offset system. (which only needs a M108 T0/1 command and not the G54/55 style commands).

I hope it works out for you.

When using a Replicator 2: I can't imagine there are a lot of setting different, but be sure to use the belonging start and end codes for your printer, and copy/paste them in the belonging fields.. Also the bed size can be different from the Rep1.

Bart

[TobyCWoods]

Thank you(x3)!

[bill plemmons]

Wow, what timing, I was fighting kisslicer all day, then I saw your post and used your profile. Thank you so much!  Just one question though, as the print starts and the head goes from home to the opposite corner., the head makes a click noise like its trying to go to far, slicing in repg doesn't do this so that seems to eliminate the printer. I double checked the bed size. I also see that the head doesn't line up with the corner of the bed, for the wipe. Any advice?

I got the size from makerbot and its 225 wide I see you had 230 but that doesn't seem to effect it

Thanks again!!

Bill

Bill

On Tuesday, February 19, 2013 7:56:24 PM UTC-6, TobyCWoods wrote:

Thank you(x3)!

[Dan Newman]

On 19 Feb 2013 , at 9:58 PM, bill plemmons wrote:

> Wow, what timing, I was fighting kisslicer all day, then I saw your post
> and used your profile. Thank you so much! Just one question though, as the
> print starts and the head goes from home to the opposite corner., the head
> makes a click noise like its trying to go to far, slicing in
> repg doesn't do this so that seems to eliminate the printer. I double
> checked the bed size. I also see that the head doesn't line up with the
> corner of the bed, for the wipe. Any advice?

Look at the gcode which, after homing, moves the extruder to a waiting
position while it waits for the heaters to heat up. The parking position
which is fine for Bart and his home offsets, is off a smidgen in Y for you.
And maybe not where you want it in X either. You can change those in
the gcode and see if that fixes things.

Dan

[bill plemmons]

Thanks! I got it. One more question, the free kisslicer only supports one head, should I use my single head start and stop files and put my setting in kisslicer to single only, with the current settings my second head heats up even though it's not printing...

Thanks so much!!

Bill

[TobyCWoods]

Tried my first print with Kisslicer last night and it went into air print. First time since I did the extruder feeder upgrade.  Did not figure it all out till today. Seems Kisslicer or at least the gcode it is making has trouble reading the temp sensor and the heater turns off. Looking at my startup gcode which I took from gcode generated from RepG SF and I see a comment about Temp Updated by Printomatic ... could that be the culprit? Not sure what the correct gcode line should be regardless.

Also, I try to save the Material settings from ABS to PLA and the settings pop back to ABS... any clues there? is there a setting dependency that overides the selection?

I have an email in to the Kiislicer guys for help on it... they say they will get back by tomorrow. So far every big thing I have put into Kisslicer, it has handled quite well and I really really like that I can see and manipulate support... so cool... If I get this working reliably and with the same quality as I get with Skeinforge I will be VERY happy to pay them for the Pro version even though I do not really need it.

[TobyCWoods]

Looking now at gcode (yet another thing I will have to learn...sigh...) and on that line after the Temp setting is "T0" so does that mean select Tool "0"? So... it seems "0" says let PrintoMatic's settings take over and as such Kisslicer probably needs to know the designation for the heater for the Rep2.

Another possibility is that the Start and End gcodes are the default and I should take them from gcode generated without the defaults selected.Will try that when I get back to my bot. 

This is the kind of thing I would have assumed many others have already been there and done that.

[funmakerBart]

Hi, yes sorry, I made some changes, maybe not handy for everyone: Like I tried to explain:  copy and paste your normally working start and end Gcode form RepG.

In the rar file there is also a stl of the image of the Replicator itself. It's just for fun. You can browse to it: under Printer//Hardware

About the clicking noise: I suspect it's because of the priming command at the end of my startGcode. With me it's just extruding next to the plate, but when it's on the plate it can't get rid of the extrusion making the extruder to skip and make clicking noises. When you still want priming just make the position somewhere outside the plate. 

I have added some comments at it in 'bold' for the T0 profile. Equal changes to the other profiles of course. The dual version has two priming commands , you can change them of course to standard ones.

(*** start.gcode for The Replicator, dual head ****)

M103 (disable RPM)

M73 P0 (enable build progress)

G21 (set units to mm)

G90 (set positioning to absolute)

M109 S<BED> T0  (set HBP temperature: this is a KS token of the first material to print)

M104 S<TEMP> T0  (set extruder temperature this is a KS token of the first material to print)

M104 S60 T1 (you can delete this line, I use it to force the fan on for the inactive extruder)

(**** begin homing ****)

G162 X Y F2500 (home XY axes maximum)

G161 Z F1100 (home Z axis minimum)

G92 Z-5 (set Z to -5)

G1 Z0.0 (move Z to "0")

G161 Z F100 (home Z axis minimum)

M132 X Y Z A B (Recall stored home offsets for XYZAB axis)

(**** end homing ****)

G1 X-70.5 Y-74 Z100 F6000.0 (you can change this one: this line is normally: G1 X-110.5 Y-74 Z130 F3300.0 (move to waiting position)

G130 X20 Y20 Z20 A20 B20 (Lower stepper Vrefs while heating)

M6 T0

G130 X127 Y127 Z40 A127 B127 (Set Stepper motor Vref to defaults)

G1 X-70.5 Y-74 Z0.2 F6000.0 (normally G0 X-110.5 Y-74 (Position Nozzle)  and the next line G0 Z0.6      (Position Height))

M108 R6.0 T0

M101         (Start Extruder) (this line and the two beneath including M103 are for priming the extruder, probably resulting in the clicking noise with you)

G4 P2000

M103

(*** end of start.gcode ***)

@ bill plemmons: as far I remember regarding the free version: you can always choose the first(T0) or second (T1) extruder for printing. I just added the dual extrusion setting for people wanting to go Pro.

So you can of course copy and paste the standard Gcodes of RepG, or just change the lines as indicated above, which should be about the standard Gcode used. When your inactive extruder is warming up to printing temperature, than you probably used the dual extrusion profile; better use T0 or T1 when not using the Pro version. When the inactive extruder only is heating up to 60 degrees it's because of the extra line I added to force the inactive fan on. You can delete it of course.

I use that extra fan to cool the print when using PLA. With this fan's clip on I made a while ago: http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:40524  (explaination on the first version: http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:34990

@TobyCwoods: I don't think there can be anything in the Gcode that can result in a faulty temperature reading as such.  The line with: temp updated by POM: As far I know it's just changing the line "M104 S(number) T0" with the temperature you changed in POM.

It's the same now in Kisslicer: the lines: 

M109 S<BED> T0 (set HBP temperature)

M104 S<TEMP> T0 

Are resulting in the same. It takes the settings of the first material you print and puts them automatically in the "tokens' <BED> and <TEMP>

so when on the material tab:

It's resulting in:

About the material settings popping back: I don't know. Maybe you mean that when copied / made a new material it's not shown in the drop down list, but maybe only the first material of the drop down list?  That's no problem as the material settings are "static" as a library of materials. You can still go with the drop down menu to the material you want to edit and see the right changes you made?

The material settings of one of the items in the "material library" are only applied when told so on the Printer//Extruder tab. That's the setting used to slice with that specific material.

About questions: better use the forum of Kisslicer. There are plenty of willing to help users. We all try to answer questions (and expect a search of the forum of users). We try to keep Jonathan (the developer) "out of the wind' because he is trying to get the next release ready.

About the quality: it's really all about tweaking: all the slicers can deliver the same quality, but I can imagine not everybody is willing to take time for it. 

About quality compared to ReplicatorG: Please realize that when setting the print speed in RepG to 80mm/s it results in a print speed of the Perimeter of 40mm/s and the infill of 80mm/s. I have set the speeds a little different, but when comparing, use the same layer height and speed as RepG. The final quality is just about tuning the filament diameter or flow.

Watch the speed slider of KS: it extrapolates the values set in the fast and slow settings of the tab Printer//Speed

Nice that you want to support KS/Jonathan! You trigger me: To support the nice Sailfish people as well... I forgot but I'll buy them a bear but I will do now ;-) 

You can support Dan & Jetty's hard work on Sailfish by sending a PayPal donation to dan.n...@mtbaldy.us. Probably fill in the complete name of Dan at the dots.

Is that right Dan?

Bart

[funmakerBart]

@TobyCwoods:

yes there are several commands which needs to now for whitch extruder it's meant. The naming is T0 for the Right extruder and T1 for the left extruder.

So in the startcode means:

M104 S220 T0 : warm the right extruder to 220 degrees.

M6 T0 means: wait until the extruder reaches it's temp before continuing with Gcode processing.

M108 T1 means: make the Left extruder active and print with it. So all commands after that M108 command are done with that extruder.

There is a list in ReplicatorG with more examples: under Help//Gcodes

Bart

[funmakerBart]

And to be complete because of the post topic: I posted something similar according Slic3r. https://groups.google.com/d/msg/makerbot/K8vpMJfZJNk/tbozqXlyX0UJ

[TobyCWoods]

Getting alot closer! The heater works ok now but now I noticed that the side fan does not go on and the PLA stays soft way too long and the part just kinda sags... The only fan control/setting I see is in the materials set up and it says it goes on for loops. I tried turning it on to "always on" but it still did not work. 

BTW I am on a Mac and I am not using the Beta.

Thanks for the help!

[Dan Newman]

On 20 Feb 2013 , at 3:43 PM, TobyCWoods wrote:

> Getting alot closer! The heater works ok now but now I noticed that the
> side fan does not go on

You need a M126 to turn the fan on and a M127 to turn it off.
Just the line

M126

in the gcode should turn the fan on. Likewise for turning it off,

M127

> and the PLA stays soft way too long and the part

> just kinda sags…

Yes, that's what the fan is for, especially on small prints. PLA has
a respectable heat capacity and thus stays hot longer than ABS.

Dan

[TobyCWoods]

Right! Added them to the start and end gcode and seemed ok... fan on.. but... 2 more things... probably the same unset setting... first I noticed at the end the extruder really extruded! A whole long string of PLA all over my test print (a spool clip) as the bed lowered at the end..eww... then I look at the test clip and noticed that PLA was put down into the gap of the clip... making for a nonfunctional clip... so it seems to me the stuff is coming out non stop... maybe..?

[funmakerBart]

Can you post the stl  and Gcode produced?

[bill plemmons]

Thanks again, you have been such a great help, I really like kisslicer. I think I'm down to one last issue: After the extruder heats up, the platform no longer comes up for the wipe at the corner to clear off the excess filament. It moves to the print position and then the platform comes up, leaving a long strand of filiment to mess up the print.

So all I need to do is copy the start and end files into the kisslicer directory? even though I'm using your print profile settings?

Thank you so much. kisslicer is amazing!

Bill

[TobyCWoods]

The .stl was the small version of this:

http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:43220

the resulting gcode... kinda big. Can I send it to ya?

[TobyCWoods]

Yes... I am seeing this same behavior.

[TobyCWoods]

I tried to attach I get a server error code... 

[funmakerBart]

Yes, but it's handy to change the temp numbers to the tokens of Kisslicer. We are talking about the Replicator 1 right?

To be sure: I just copied  a standard StartGcode RepG40r7 (Dual_Head_start.gcode) for the rep1 dual, Only the tokens of KS are changed in it:

You can copy paste them in the according Prefix Gcode fields belonging to each Printer setting:

It's not so clear in KS, but you first have to choose the printer tab and select the profile you want to use (so say T0 without G92 E0). The Ptr G-Code tab is belonging to that Printer profile (it's actually a subtab). So in the belonging Printer profile go to the  subtab  Ptr G-Code, and paste the Gcode in this post in the Prefix field.

so for the startcode when printing with T0:

(**** start.gcode for The Replicator, dual head ****)

M103 (disable RPM)

M73 P0 (enable build progress)

G21 (set units to mm)

G90 (set positioning to absolute)

M109 S<BED> T0 (set HBP temperature)

M104 S<TEMP> T0 (set extruder temperature)

(**** begin homing ****)

G162 X Y F2500 (home XY axes maximum)

G161 Z F1100 (home Z axis minimum)

G92 Z-5 (set Z to -5)

G1 Z0.0 (move Z to "0")

G161 Z F100 (home Z axis minimum)

M132 X Y Z A B (Recall stored home offsets for XYZAB axis)

(**** end homing ****)

G1 X-110.5 Y-74 Z150 F3300.0 (move to waiting position)

G130 X20 Y20 Z20 A20 B20 (Lower stepper Vrefs while heating)

M6 T0 (wait for toolhead, and HBP to reach temperature)

G130 X127 Y127 Z40 A127 B127 (Set Stepper motor Vref to defaults)

M108 R3.0 T0

G0 X-110.5 Y-74 (Position Nozzle)

G0 Z0.6      (Position Height)

M108 R5.0    (Set Extruder Speed)

M101         (Start Extruder)

G4 P2000     (Create Anchor)

(**** end of start.gcode ****)

and for printing with T1 it's:

(**** start.gcode for The Replicator, dual head ****)

M103 (disable RPM)

M73 P0 (enable build progress)

G21 (set units to mm)

G90 (set positioning to absolute)

M109 S<BED> T1 (set HBP temperature)

M104 S<TEMP> T1 (set extruder temperature)

(**** begin homing ****)

G162 X Y F2500 (home XY axes maximum)

G161 Z F1100 (home Z axis minimum)

G92 Z-5 (set Z to -5)

G1 Z0.0 (move Z to "0")

G161 Z F100 (home Z axis minimum)

M132 X Y Z A B (Recall stored home offsets for XYZAB axis)

(**** end homing ****)

G1 X-110.5 Y-74 Z150 F3300.0 (move to waiting position)

G130 X20 Y20 Z20 A20 B20 (Lower stepper Vrefs while heating)

M6 T1 (wait for toolhead, and HBP to reach temperature)

G130 X127 Y127 Z40 A127 B127 (Set Stepper motor Vref to defaults)

M108 R3.0 T1

G0 X-110.5 Y-74 (Position Nozzle)

G0 Z0.6      (Position Height)

M108 R5.0    (Set Extruder Speed)

M101         (Start Extruder)

G4 P2000     (Create Anchor)

(**** end of start.gcode ****)

and for dual it's:

(**** start.gcode for The Replicator, Dualstrusion! ****)

M103 (disable RPM)

M73 P0 (enable build progress)

G21 (set units to mm)

G90 (set positioning to absolute)

M109 S<BED> T0 (set HBP temperature)

M104 S<TEMP> T0 (set extruder temperature)

M104 S<TEMP> T1 (set extruder temperature)

(**** begin homing ****)

G162 X Y F2500 (home XY axes maximum)

G161 Z F1100 (home Z axis minimum)

G92 Z-5 (set Z to -5)

G1 Z0.0 (move Z to "0")

G161 Z F100 (home Z axis minimum)

M132 X Y Z A B (Recall stored home offsets for XYZAB axis)

(**** end homing ****)

G1 X-110.5 Y-74 Z50 F3300.0 (move to waiting position)

G130 X20 Y20 Z20 A20 B20 (Lower stepper Vrefs while heating)

M6 T0 (wait for toolhead, and HBP to reach temperature)

M6 T1 (wait for toolhead, and HBP to reach temperature)

G130 X127 Y127 Z40 A127 B127 (Set Stepper motor Vref to defaults)

G0 X-110.5 Y-74     (Position Nozzle)

G0 Z0.6         (Position Height)

G1 E4 F50.0      (Create Anchor)

G92 E0

(**** end of start.gcode ****)

end the endcode for all:

(******* End.gcode*******)

M73 P100 ( End  build progress )

G0 Z150 ( Send Z axis to bottom of machine )

M18 ( Disable steppers )

;G4 P600000 (optional: when wanting to keep warm for 10 minutes after a print, remove the "; "at the beginning of this line)

M109 S0 T0 ( Cool down the build platform )

M104 S0 T0 ( Cool down the Right Extruder )

M104 S0 T1 ( Cool down the Left Extruder )

G162 X Y F2500 ( Home XY endstops )

M18 ( Disable stepper motors )

M70 P5 ( We <3 Making Things!)

M72 P1  ( Play Ta-Da song )

(*********end End.gcode*******)

[funmakerBart]

About the clip: no slice errors so I suppose it's something in the startcode. I tried to make it standard (except the tokens) in the previous post.

The Gcode is only 400kb for that clip! Not so big then I suppose.  Maybe let it generate with the "include comments"option chosen on the Printer//Firmware tab.

Post a pic otherwise, I'm not sure what is happening.

On Wednesday, February 20, 2013 1:54:41 AM UTC+1, TobyCWoods wrote:

[bill plemmons]

I got it, I added g0 z0.6

is there a way to display time remaining on the printer screen when running from repg?

Bill

[Dan Newman]

On 20 Feb 2013 , at 6:23 PM, funmakerBart wrote:

> About the clip: no slice errors so I suppose it's something in the
> startcode. I tried to make it standard (except the tokens) in the previous
> post.
> The Gcode is only 400kb for that clip! Not so big then I suppose. Maybe
> let it generate with the "include comments"option chosen on the
> Printer//Firmware tab.
> Post a pic otherwise, I'm not sure what is happening.

Does the end.gcode disable the stepper motors for all axes? Particularly,
the extruder axis? Disabling it at the end of a print helps prevent this
ooze.

Dan

[TobyCWoods]

My start and end code  has all of the above as appropriate... I have added the fan commands or the fan does not work... other then that they match. The problem of the extruder extruding non stop is not only shown at the end but also during printing. It extrudes while traveling. Seems to me that is due to the gcode generated by Kisslicer right?

[Dan Newman]

On 21 Feb 2013 , at 9:09 AM, TobyCWoods wrote:

>
>>
>> My start and end code has all of the above as appropriate... I have added
>> the fan commands or the fan does not work... other then that they match.
>> The problem of the extruder extruding non stop

Are you sure it's extruding vs. a bad case of ooze? If you are running Sailfish,
you can try turning off "extruder hold" which ensures that the extruder's stepper
motor stays enabled the entire print, even during travel moves. It's generally
considered a Bad Thing to disable the extruder during a print as it causes a certain
amount of unknown filament reversal to occur when the pinch gear free wheels.
That'a a significant concern with RepG 39/40 + SF-50 as it generates commands to
disable the stepper motor during travels. "Extruder Hold", which is on by default,
defeats that disabling. It can also cause a little more ooze.

>> is not only shown at the end
>> but also during printing. It extrudes while traveling. Seems to me that is
>> due to the gcode generated by Kisslicer right?

Also, make sure that if KISSlicer is doing it's flavor of retraction/reversal,
then you have firmware deprime disabled in Sailfish (deprime = 0).

You can change deprime and extruder hold via RepG's Machine > Onboard Prefs or
from the control panel. Extruder Hold is under Utilities > General Settings
and Deprime should be under the Acceleration Params under Utilities.

Dan

[TobyCWoods]

Dan

I now do not think there is excessive extrusion during the print. Watching it I see that the ext is not following the paths correctly. Itshould go back and forth the length of the clip, but instead it is taking a path at the end of one side then jumping to the center of the clip. Looking at the Path visual on Kisslicer shows it going the correct path, but as you can see in the attached it is taking a shortcut... you can also see the excess at the end... It has diminished a bit since I moved the command to turn off the fan to the end of the end gcode.

[TobyCWoods]

Here's another example using the Simple Clamp stl...

Left side is from RegGSF gcode, righth side is a cancelled print using Kisslicer gcode .

[Dan Newman]

On 21 Feb 2013 , at 10:04 AM, TobyCWoods wrote:

> Dan
> I now do not think there is excessive extrusion during the print. Watching
> it I see that the ext is not following the paths correctly. Itshould go
> back and forth the length of the clip, but instead it is taking a path at
> the end of one side then jumping to the center of the clip. Looking at the
> Path visual on Kisslicer shows it going the correct path, but as you can
> see in the attached it is taking a shortcut... you can also see the excess
> at the end... It has diminished a bit since I moved the command to turn off
> the fan to the end of the end gcode.

Well, the firmware doesn't add or remove steps from the steps it is told
to do by the s3g/x3g file. So it's not possible for the firmware to up
and decide to take a shortcut. You likely have some other issue such that
the conversion to s3g/x3g by RepG is incorrect. For example, KISSlicer
likes to use G92 which Sailfish supports. HOWEVER, RepG has some bugs
associated with G92 and thus will produce incorrect s3g/x3g when dealing
with G92. And G92 relates to positioning information.

Dan

[TobyCWoods]

Ok... so... if we assume it's a bug in gcode exporting to x3g then my next question is... am I the only Rep2 user that sees this? Is there a Rep2 user using Kisslicer successfully?

If it works ok for a Rep 1 why would it not work for a Rep2? Whats the diff?

I'll take a look at the gcode between the two slicers to see if I can find anything obviously different related to path.

I hope we figger it out. I REALLY like Kisslicer.

[funmakerBart]

@bill:  Glad it is working. About the time on the display; as far I know it's added automatically  in RepG with the M73 P* (display progress) command, which simply lets display the % with the number after the "P ". equally distributed over the Gcode with numbers from 0 to 100.

I don't miss it myself, but I set up an (unofficial)  poll @ Kisslicer for features liked to be added to Kisslicer. I shall add this one.

http://kisslicer.com/forum/index.php?topic=361.0

In Slic3r it's actually generated now when choosing the Sailfish firmware flavor.

@Dan: the endcode in my config has the disable steppers command M18 (two times). But is there an additional one needed to disable the E, A, or B?

Can that timer command of me (G4) do anything wrong?

@Tobywoods: I think that's only a case of stringing you have because of missing suck and prime! That's solvable with two options I think.

I think it's because you don't have the destring option enabled on the Style tab. And when it's possible the jump I had in my configs is to big, so it's not generating a suck and prime. For both "min Jump" and "trigger"set the values to 1mm. So when the travel is more than a mm, destring and prime is activated. The destring and prime of 0.5mm both are working for me. When still Oozing define a bigger suck (and probably prime as well). The Wipe function is also nice. When defining 10mm, it's going back 10mm on the just extruded path to wipe before traveling.

It could be that your extrusion temp is too high and it oozes more then normally. But when it's the same setting you use in RepG, it can't be that.

About destringing:

First you have to choose if you want the to do destringing (suck and prime) with the firmware(Sailfish, not MB) or with the slicer.

destringing by Sailfish 

• In the onboard preferences of Sailfish set suck and prime to 16 steps (or what you have tweaked)
• this suck and prime only reacts on M101(prime) and M103(suck) commands
• Make this option active (for each printer setting you want)  in Kisslicer under Printer//Firmware//Mark Path start and stop. Choose the M101/3 option
• Because of that you don't want to have an additional suck and prime generated by Kisslicer. For that: disable the "destring" option at the style tab

destringing by Kisslicer:

• You can leave the destring settings of Sailfish as they are, but disable the  Printer//Firmware//Mark Path start and stop by setting it to "none" which results in no generation of M101/M103 commands. So the Sailfish retraction and prime is inactive.
  
• At the style Tab: make sure you have the Destring option checked.
  
• When active Kisslicer does the following actions regarding destringing as defined at the Material tab. (so you must adjust it for each material):
  

1. when the destring on the style tab is checked > go to 2
2. before traveling: look at the minimum jump. when the travel is less then the minimum jump > go to 4  when the travel is more then the minimum jump > go to 3
3. wipe, backtrack the printed path #mm, unless # = 0 > go to 4
4. look at Trigger: when the travel is less then the number in mm for trigger > go to 7, when its more go to 5
5. suck #mm > go to 6
6. travel to the next print spot and prime #mm
7. travel to the next print spot and don't prime

definitions used in Kisslicer (my interpretation)

• Before a travel: retraction is Suck
  
• After a travel, befor starting the actual print: extruding a little is Prime
  
• Before travel going back a little on the allready extruded path is Wipe
  
• Some firmware versions also do a suck and prime because of M101 and M103 commands. These don't have to be mixed with the KS suck and prime.
  
• Minimum jump is used for the Wipe function. 
  
• Trigger is used for the Prime and suck function
  
• The speed @ destring applies to the extruders (A,B,E) not to the Wipe function (X,Y (settings used at the speed tab and slider) and Z (Z-speed on the speed tab).
  

[funmakerBart]

@toby, I'm pretty sure the path generated of the Gcode visualisation of KS is coreect. However, it doesn't show the travel path, but Repetier Host does. The stringing you have are about the same I think as the travelpaths. So I'm sure it's just about making sure the destringing is set according the settings in the previous post.

@Dan: normally I have in my startcode after the Anchor creation a M103 command, but removed it in the "more standard" Gcode I proposed for KS. I noticed that the standard RepGcode is missing that. Is it to be advised to add it? I just do an extrusion at a corner of the plate, but with a missing M103 it could result in an extrusion from the waiting point to the first printed point.

M101         (Start Extruder)

G4 P2000     (Create Anchor)

M103 (needed to prevent an anchor to the print spot?)

(**** end of start.gcode ****)

Dan, Another question: for RepG2 or 2x users: can the same settings can be used as the Rep1? Is there something extra needed in the startcode or at extruder change?

I don't have a replicator2, but I can adjust the KS settings to make a profile for Rep2 users. There is starting some interest in it I think.

Bart

[funmakerBart]

afterburn....

About the retraction and prime length of 0.5mm: this works for me as well Ddstarkey on the Rep1. Maybe it's different for the Rep2. Maybe another difference: I defined the speed of Retraction and prime as 30mm/s. I have seen reports with better results at higher speeds as 80mm/s, but that was with only a small retraction as defined in RepG of 0.1mm. 

I had the impression that a high speed setting as well 0.5mm retraction was resulting in "sanding" the filament by the drive gear. With PLA the gear was in no time filled with PLA particles.

the endcode used BTW can the G4 code do anything wrong? I use it a couple of weeks without problems though.

(******* End.gcode*******)

M73 P100 ( End  build progress )

G0 Z150 ( Send Z axis to bottom of machine )

M18 ( Disable steppers )

;G4 P600000 (optional: when wanting to keep warm for 10 minutes after a print, remove the "; "at the beginning of this line)

M109 S0 T0 ( Cool down the build platform )

M104 S0 T0 ( Cool down the Right Extruder )

M104 S0 T1 ( Cool down the Left Extruder )

G162 X Y F2500 ( Home XY endstops )

M18 ( Disable stepper motors )

M70 P5 ( We <3 Making Things!)

M72 P1  ( Play Ta-Da song )

(*********end End.gcode*******)

[Dan Newman]

On 21 Feb 2013 , at 12:56 PM, funmakerBart wrote:

> @bill: Glad it is working. About the time on the display; as far I know
> it's added automatically in RepG with the M73 P* (display progress)
> command, which simply lets display the % with the number after the "P
> ". equally distributed over the Gcode with numbers from 0 to 100.
> I don't miss it myself, but I set up an (unofficial) poll @ Kisslicer for
> features liked to be added to Kisslicer. I shall add this one.
> http://kisslicer.com/forum/index.php?topic=361.0
>
> In Slic3r it's actually generated now when choosing the Sailfish firmware
> flavor.
>
> @Dan: the endcode in my config has the disable steppers command M18 (two
> times). But is there an additional one needed to disable the E, A, or B?
> Can that timer command of me (G4) do anything wrong?

A naked "M18" disables all stepper motors. Specifically, RepG generates
s3g/x3g with 0x1F as the bit mask. Since the high bit is clear, it's a
disable command. And then bits 0 - 4 are set and so it disables X=bit 0,
Y=bit 1, Z=bit 2, A=bit 3, and B=bit 4.

No additional M18 is needed. MBI's gcode has two to disable them all,
then home X & Y which re-enables X & Y steppers. Then another M18. It
could just as easily just use one M18 after the homing or use M18 commands
that specify individual axes.

Dan

[Dan Newman]

On 21 Feb 2013 , at 1:15 PM, funmakerBart wrote:

> @toby, I'm pretty sure the path generated of the Gcode visualisation of KS
> is coreect. However, it doesn't show the travel path, but Repetier Host
> does. The stringing you have are about the same I think as the travelpaths.
> So I'm sure it's just about making sure the destringing is set according
> the settings in the previous post.
>
>
>

> <https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-rLek7l1MMUk/USaMzfj8ZII/AAAAAAAAARU/U4Q0eaYM2sM/s1600/21-2-2013+22-06-37.jpg>

>
>
> @Dan: normally I have in my startcode after the Anchor creation a M103
> command, but removed it in the "more standard" Gcode I proposed for KS. I
> noticed that the standard RepGcode is missing that. Is it to be advised to
> add it? I just do an extrusion at a corner of the plate, but with a missing
> M103 it could result in an extrusion from the waiting point to the first
> printed point.
>
> M101 (Start Extruder)
> G4 P2000 (Create Anchor)
> M103 (needed to prevent an anchor to the print spot?)
> (**** end of start.gcode ****)

If it's there our not is a matter of personal taste.

> Dan, Another question: for RepG2 or 2x users: can the same settings can be
> used as the Rep1? Is there something extra needed in the startcode or at
> extruder change?

No one outside of MBI has a Rep 2X so no one outside of MBI can answer about
the Rep 2X. For a Rep 2, you can see the start and end gcode files which
MBI provided in the directory

machines/replicator2/

of RepG.

Dan

[Wingcommander whpthomas]

The one thing that alludes me with Slic3r is how to get the deprime/retraction to work with PLA. I have a Replicator 2 with sailfish 7.1 firmware - so I was expecting I could just set retraction to zero like I have in ReplicatorG and it would work just as well, but it doesn't seem to have any effect.

I also did a bit of a search and tried the recommended setting of 1mm retraction with 20mm/s speed - which is what you see in the photo below.

Has anyone had any success with this - slic3r is pretty much unusable for me at the moment with this level of stringing.

[funmakerBart]

Because slic3r isn't generating M101/M103 commands in the Gcode, the retraction and prime of Sailfish isn't working.

Therefore  you have to adjust the extruder settings of each printprofile of Slic3r. I have good results with a retraction of 0.5mm and prime of 0.2mm, which is odd, because with Kisslicer it's both 0.5mm)

When printing dual you can set an additional extruder change retraction and prime. I have different results with different materials and temperatures, but I think for that a retraction of 1 or 2 mm and a prime of 0.5mm is a starting point. (but to avoid confusion I set it to 0.5 and 0.2mm as well sometimes)

[TobyCWoods]

I really appreciate the time you guys are spending on this... I especially appreciate the lesson on Destring. Thanks... I feel like such a freaking NOOB! Which I am. I set the Destring Suck to 1.5mm in KS and it stopped leaving a trail while traveling.

Looks ok.

I still get a bit if a stream at the end as the bed drops, but the printouts look ok. I will try some more samples. Gettn real close!

[Wingcommander whpthomas]

Bart: I can't see where you do this in kisslicer

• Make this option active (for each printer setting you want)  in Kisslicer under Printer//Firmware//Mark Path start and stop. Choose the M101/3 option

BTW: I have a Mac version

[TobyCWoods]

Printing away with gcode from KS... a couple of things. KS does it different. Still looks good... not better and not worse just different paths which makes the output look different in certain ways. I had to up the Destring Suck to 1.75 (still got some strands during travel) and increased the Prime to .5( a tiny patch of no PLA on one test model surface area). Definitely will be using KS... paid for Pro. My bet there's a range of optimal values which should be fun to discover over time.  I will try to document as I feel more confident. 

[TobyCWoods]

Looks like the strands dropping while traveling can't actually be prevented completely for all files. No matter how I set Destring. I suspect it is what it is.

[Dan Newman]

I never have such a problem with my Rep 2. Mind you, I only use SF-50.
However, this may well be a function of your extruder's geometry, stepper
motor torque, actual extruder temp, your batch of plastic, etc. Which is,
to say, there's factors outside of the slicer which vary from bot to bot
as well as from plastic to plastic. (And I got rid of the clear PLA MBI
sent me: it was too lousy to waste time with.)

Dan

[TobyCWoods]

When I use SF (50) this effect does not occur. I get really good quality output. I am working through getting to that point with KS because I need to do much larger and much more complex outputs then RepG/SF can handle.

[funmakerBart]

The mac has about the same layout, only a little different style. When you think it's different I plug in my old mac to see what's wrong.

To be complete I made some screenshots about destringing, starting with the (dis/enabling of the M101/3 command.

Bart

[funmakerBart]

Don't give up toby! ;-)

Transparent PLA is difficult, but the main reason of oozing is the temperature set.  More then other PLA colours.

The temperature set with PLA makes more difference regarding Oozing then the destringing settings IMO. Try to lowering the temp at much as possible. I test it in RepG, the control panel. Let it extrude with 3rpm and lower the temp with 5 degrees steps.  The lowest temp without the extruder skipping (clicking sounds) is good for a normal print. 10 or 20 degrees higher for a fast print.

I set it to 210 degrees for a fast print and to 190 degrees for a normal speed print.

On the Rep1 I got prints with no stringing at all with the following settings (I'm still confused about the retraction speed setting, I set it to 30mm/s relatively slow I think)

(measure your own diameter)

[funmakerBart]

On Friday, February 22, 2013 3:49:05 AM UTC+1, TobyCWoods wrote:

Printing away with gcode from KS... a couple of things. KS does it different. Still looks good... not better and not worse just different paths which makes the output look different in certain ways. I had to up the Destring Suck to 1.75 (still got some strands during travel) and increased the Prime to .5( a tiny patch of no PLA on one test model surface area). Definitely will be using KS... paid for Pro. My bet there's a range of optimal values which should be fun to discover over time.  I will try to document as I feel more confident. 

Please do! When you both have some feedback we can make some 'general' basis settings as starting point for others.

When it's possible within the next days. It can be bundled with the next release of KS as Jonathan (KS developer) asked.

Bart

[Wingcommander whpthomas]

Bart, I think you must have the 1.10 beta - I only have 1.09 - where did you download it?

[funmakerBart]

Sorry, I thought I thought to have mentioned that. It's in this post: http://kisslicer.com/forum/index.php?topic=382.50

You have to be registered though to see it. You have to answer a lot of security questions (and repeat it the first 5 times you log in, after that not anymore)

So I have attached it to this post (Mac version) 

where the screenshots somewhat clear?

Bart

[Wingcommander whpthomas]

You have to be registered though to see it. You have to answer a lot of security questions (and repeat it the first 5 times you log in, after that not anymore)

So I have attached it to this post (Mac version) 

Thanks, I figured as much and was in the middle of registering - waiting for the confirmation email - when you posted this.

 

where the screenshots somewhat clear?

Very, thanks!

Just purchased the pro version and waiting on the registration key.

I have been looking over the s3g/x3g specification and looking at writing a simple gcode converter in ansi C to work as a post processing tool for Kiss. Would make the whole slicing process with kiss incredibly quick. The spec is pretty simple - will have a bash at this next weekend.

[funmakerBart]

You mean that with postprocessing you are able to export s3g or x3g file direct from KS? And we just have to copy it to a SD card to print with it?

I can only say: Wow! 

But we still need RepG to update the onboard preferences right? Should be a separate program too.... Dan?.....

Less dependent of the manufacturer is a good thing IMO.

[Dan Newman]

> Very, thanks!
>
> Just purchased the pro version and waiting on the registration key.
>

> I have been looking over the s3g/x3g specification<https://github.com/makerbot/s3g/blob/master/doc/s3gProtocol.md>and looking at writing a simple gcode converter in ansi C to work as a post

> processing tool for Kiss. Would make the whole slicing process with kiss
> incredibly quick. The spec is pretty simple - will have a bash at this next
> weekend.

Some reference works for you.

1. s3g_decompiler.py which Jetty and I try to keep up-to-date and working. While
there's one in the makerbot repo at github, it may be out of date again. This one
is up-to-date,

https://github.com/jetty840/ReplicatorG/blob/master/scripts/s3g-decompiler.py

So, any x3g you produce should be consumable by that tool. If it isn't, there
may be something wrong with your x3g.

2. Another tool, this one in C although it sucks in some C++ header files
from the C++ firmware

https://github.com/jetty840/Sailfish-MightyBoardFirmware/blob/master/firmware/simulator/s3gdump.c
https://github.com/jetty840/Sailfish-MightyBoardFirmware/blob/master/firmware/simulator/s3g.h
https://github.com/jetty840/Sailfish-MightyBoardFirmware/blob/master/firmware/simulator/s3g.c
… etc …

3. The Python module which Conveyor uses (or used to use) in producing x3g is

https://github.com/makerbot/s3g/blob/master/makerbot_driver/s3g.py

4. Not too sure how much of Conveyor you can look under the hood at in a MakerWare installation,
but I believe it's conveyor which converts gcode to x3g. You may learn something poking around
in your MW install.

5. Looking at RepG to see how to turn gcode into x3g is somewhat painful, but you do need to
look at it or MW/Conveyor so that you can pick up nuances such as the fact that some mcodes
produce different command(s) for different bots. For example, the mcode to wait for the tools
to come to temp produces one "wait" for a Rep 2 but one, two, or three for a Rep 1 or Rep 2X.
That's because it's an individual x3g command for each heater in question and on those last
two bots there can be one (extruder), two (extruder + HBP; extruder + extruder), or three
(extruder + extruder + HBP) to wait on.

And of course, the x3g is in units of steps so you need to know how to convert from mm to
steps.

Dan

[Dan Newman]

On 22 Feb 2013 , at 4:06 PM, funmakerBart wrote:

> You mean that with postprocessing you are able to export s3g or x3g file
> direct from KS? And we just have to copy it to a SD card to print with it?
> I can only say: Wow!
> But we still need RepG to update the onboard preferences right? Should be

> a separate program too.... Dan?…..

Sure:

( cd /Applications/ReplicatorG.app ; tar cvf - . ) | ( cd /Applications; mkdir SailfishEEPROM.app; cd SailfishEEPROM.app; tar xvf -- )

Now you have an app to set SailfishEEPROM settings ;) Alternatively

cd /Applications
ln -s ReplicatorG.app SailfishEEPROM.app

Point being, we could write an app to just change EEPROM settings, but
there already is such an app. Maybe someday, but it's lower priority
than other things.

Dan

[Wingcommander whpthomas]

Thanks for the links Dan.

I was going to make a lint file of all the gcodes as a test bed and compare binary output with ReplicatorG. My guess is I will need a command line flag (tom, rep1, rep2, rep2x etc.) to set the bot mm to steps and homing directions which will be looked up in a config file. I have had plenty of experience writing object relational compilers in the past so this doesn't look like a huge project. The M and G codes are pretty simple to pass - as you point out the real challenge is matching G & M to the correct commands and corresponding variables and bit fields etc.

[TobyCWoods]

The best I could get to...

Temp set in start gCode to 200. Slows down the ooze... any higher I get stringing. Because of the lower temp I get less sticking to the BP and I'm getting stepper motor ticking (I assume it's trying to push faster than the ooze will allow)

Destring suck 1.52 and Prime at 1

Wipe 5

Everything else left to the settings by Bart for the Rep1 for PLA.

This is with some very nice Gray PLA that I have never had problems with though.

I notice something interesting... when the temp setting in the start gcode does not match the temp setting on Materials I sometimes get a the Heater Error Check Connection message... The heater does not go on for the print.. I cancel and select Preheat and it works fine so I do not believe it is my Thermocoupler connection I think it's KS. and I can't seem to get the tags to work (i.e., "S<TEMP>)" in the Start gcode so that all temp settings come from the Materials settings... 

[funmakerBart]

Hi Toby, I replied in the KS forum to you. After 5 times logging in, you don't have those terrible security questions anymore.

Please post your screenshots of the settings of each tab using for a print, as well the first part of the text Gcode of your print (until the second layer or so). When even the tokens (like <TEMP> aren't working, I think there is a wrong assumption how you think KS has to work (but isn't) somewhere in your settings. 

[funmakerBart]

Toby, I'm sure it is not something simple as this you have problems with, but to be certain:

are you sure to have defined the material (PLA grey) to use with that specific Printer setting under Printer // Extruders?

Also be sure to have changed the belonging Gcode used to that printer? (The user Gcode settings are belonging to each individual Printer setting).

When even the <TEMP> toking in your Gcode isn't working, I think you haven't used the right printer setting to slice with belonging user Gcode, or you haven't defined the material to use with that printer setting. Then the destring isn't working as well as you expected.

Some screens:

[TobyCWoods]

Hi Bart

Thanks again for the help... 

I am using a different version of Kisslicer then you are showing in your screen captures. Version 1.0.9 for the Mac. As You can see I use T0 everywhere. BTW... how do you add a material?

[funmakerBart]

No probs. This version of KS is not yet supporting the placeholders / tokens like <TEMP> 

for a new material: just change the name and save. The old material is still there.

I see that you have the Destring min on the material tab to zero: With me it gave with that version enormous problems because each little extrusion invoking a suck and prime. Better set it to 20mm (larger parts)  5mm (normal) or 2mm (little parts with a lot of traveling)

You didn't add a screen of the extruder tab: that's the one I'm curious about, what you have set!

Be sure you post the screens of each tab at the point you press the slice button. (As I was forgetting sometimes in the beginning). Because the settings active (except the material tab, which is confusing) are being used for slicing.

Maybe it's better to change to the latest beta, so we have the same setup to compare. I have attached the Mac beta. Download, unzip it and copy it to a new folder in the application folder (do not copy only the program to the application folder, because by this, the settings of that version of KS will be bundled with that version of the program.

You can copy and paste (and overwrite) the settings in the folder of this version of KS into the the new folder.

In that version you can create a new material by clicking on a button 'copy'. or delete it.

Bart

[funmakerBart]

Another thing: with that version there was a setting for RPM of the extruder, 

I saw you have a minimum of 3RPM for the extruder set. That's way to much!. That's certain a reason  the destring is not working well. This setting will overrule slice values and probably resulting in odd results (as you have).

So with this version of Kisslicer, set the minimum RPM to 0.01 or so. 

With the new version, which is having a very handy similar function, it's called flow (which is layer height * layer width * speed, so with you is it 0.2*0.4*40=3.2). Set that for now minimum 0.1 and maximum 10.

When it all works I can give some ideas how to use it for fine-tuning.

Bart

[TobyCWoods]

Thanks Bart... I misnamed my 5th capture... here it is:

BTW should I copy my init files into the folder with the beta or use the defaults? I tried the older ini files. The Destring settings are grayed out.

[TobyCWoods]

Ah... got it... have to do the Settings Level.

[funmakerBart]

I forgot that levels, so I had no idea! 

[funmakerBart]

I updated the settings a little, because of some comments, together with some additions.

To use with the beta 110c of Kisslicer.

Hope it works now. I'm printing a huge PLA (grey...) object at the moment. No stringing and warping here ;-)

BTW I use a lot of additional cooling by a fan with PLA.

Bart

[TobyCWoods]

NAILED IT!

Kisslicer worked PERFECTLY. I will make some samples and post.

THANKS BARTMAN!

[funmakerBart]

Great, Happy too!

[TobyCWoods]

Still a tiny amount of stringing, but much more manageable. Easily within the same quality as Skeinforge. Fine tuning per each color/make of PLA will likely be needed.

Thanks!

[funmakerBart]

Attached are the adjusted settings as starting point to use with Kisslicer for the Replicator 1 (dual) as well the Replicator 2 (I don't have the Rep2 so I can't test it).

I find Kisslicer accurate, very fast, generating a clever support structure, giving great 3D feedback of the Gcode, understandable and tweakable settings, and active developed and supported. 

I have added for both printers settings to use with Makerbot firmware as well Sailfish firmware,  and Kisslicer 1.1.0c Beta. Various OS versions are attached as well.

• Download and extract the version of Kisslicer of choice. It's not going to be installed, just click on the program file in the folder just extracted to. You can make a shortcut to it of course.
  
• Download and extract the settings of choice; copy / paste / overwrite  them in the same folder as the program.
  
• Open Kisslicer, click settings and set the settings level to expert
• Click 'open' to load a stl (or drag and drop). You can scale and rotate objects. Multi-objects with the Pro version. It can be done with the menu on top for all objects at once as well.
• In the menu on top you can define the color scheme and disable auto rotating as well. 
• With the slider under 'show settings' you can define the speed of slicing, defined in the settings of each printer (see the "printer" speed tab of the settings). There are sliders as well which let you define the position of the object as well. With copy and delete profile you can add or delete the various settings of the folowing tabs:
• On the style tab set the settings to use as  layer height, infill percentage. Check the destring box when not already. The inset surface let you adjust the size of the object little in XY direction (0.1mm makes it a little smaller, -0.1mm a little bigger. Only small numbers advised)
• On the support tab: if wanted: set the settings to generate the external support structure as well Raft structure. Support can be limited to a height entered. Sheath is an extra shell around the support structure to make it more stable.
• The material tab is a library of settings for each material you own. These settings (as well the belonging Matl Gcode tab) are the only ones of all tabs not applied for slicing directly. Under the tab "printer" subtab "extruder" you set the material to be used for slicing. 
• Measure you filament and adjust the diameter. Use working values for the temperature settings. The "keep warm value" is only used for printing with dual extruders. Adjust the Bed temperature.
• The destring settings: Before a travel: retraction is Suck; After a travel, before starting the actual print extruding a little is Prime. Before travel going back a little on the already extruded path is Wipe. Minimum jump is used for the Wipe function. Trigger is used for the Prime and suck function. Set them both to 5mm. I find 0.5mm suck and prime good starting settings, as well 10mm wipe path.
• Minimum layer time can force to slow down (for PLA) preventing the object is getting to hot and soft.
• Z-lift is going up when also a destring is triggered when traveling
• Flow tweak is a more advanced feature. Set it to 0.1 to 10, a range being handled by the Replicators.
• The Tab "Matl Gcode" is actually a subtab for each material being used. This specific Gcode you entered here (example: an extra suck when printing dual)  <MATL> can be inserted (nested) in the Gcodes belonging to each Printer setting.
• The tab Printer defines the specific setting for each printer type. The tab "Ptr Gcode' is belonging to each printer setting, and is actually a subtab of each printer setting.
• the subtab Hardware under printers is describing bed size and offset. As gadget you can load a stl of your printer to be shown in the 3D window.
• the Firmware tab let choose the flavor your printer takes. Absolute E for Sailfish (generating G92 E0 commands with each layer change and extruder change) and the Makerbot flavor to use with MB firmware. The "mark path start/stop" will generate M101/3 commands in the Gcode, usable with Sailfish retraction and prime. When using the Sailfish retraction and Prime, unmark the destring option at the Style tab. When using Kisslicer Destring set it to "none"
• under Extruders you define the materials to be used for slicing. The PRO version has to be used to let it generate support extruded by the Second extruder. Ext1=T0. Ext2=T1.
• The Speed tab let you define the minimum and maximum speed to be used. The final speed of slicing has to be set with the slider next to the setting box. Watch the extra features as first layer, travel and Z speed. The acceleration value is only for calculating print time.
• The Ptr G-code tab is actually a subtab of each printer setting. In this tabs you set the prefix (start) Gcode as Postfix (end) Gcode. The Select and deselect tabs are used for printing dual to define the Extruder change. For example, they can be used to lower the temp of the inactive extruder to reduce oozing. (the keep-warm value on the material tab and inserted by the token <TEMP>.
• Under Misc (Pro version)  you can define the resolution of slicing (0.05 for detailed objects, 0.1 for normal and 0.15 for simple objects). The value crowning threshold tries to squeeze in additional extrusion paths, to avoid voids in especially thin walled objects. For a lot of settings of Kisslicer you can use the value -1 to disable it.
• When ready with the settings press the slice button. First it generates the 3D Gcode to be 3D examined on the model+path option above the 3D window, or 2D with the "path" option. When everything is OK, press the save button for the final Gcode.
• Copy and paste that Gcode into ReplicatorG40 for Makerbot firmware, or ReplicatorG40 Sailfish version, for Sailfish firmware; to be used with Gcode with G92 E0 commands.
• Generate x3g Gcode with ReplicatorG. Copy the generated x3g file to the SD card mounted in your PC, insert after that the SD card in the Replicator and choose "print from SD card".

The settings should be usable with the free version of Kisslicer, but include features to be used with the PRO version as well.

The Kisslicer PRO version is 42 dollar (support the developer!) and is capable to:

• print support / raft / infill with the second extruder
  
• load multi stl's, 
  
• do stacking (perimeter printed with higher resolution then the infill and support)
  
• adjust extended settings for slicing

It's expected Kisslicer will release a new version (based on this Beta) on short notice.

http://www.kisslicer.com

For downloading beta versions you have to register at the forum. Expect to log in 5 times with annoying security questions. After that you are free...

Sailfish firmware is advised to use, because of the extra features as "on the fly" speed adjusting, lack of flaws (as: it can handle the common G92 E0 command as Makerbot can't); fast, helpfull and accurate support by Dan and Jetty (as: you don't have to sent your old, not working firmware to them first, to be allowed to get their new firmware, after paying for it)

FWIW; I'm a normal user of KS, so not involved / benefiting in any way of Kisslicer.

Bart

[TobyCWoods]

Thanks again to funmakerBart.

BTW... In the Materials Tab the Fan/Cool area. For the Rep2 all should probably be set to 100. This controls the fan to the extruder heatsink and not the fan to cool the plastic on the bed. If you have the Fan on gcode command in the Start Gcode it turns both on. It would be nice to have the downward fan turn on after the first layer. But this does not control that fan.

Also... I still get a stream of ooze at the end. Is there a gcode command to only stop the stepper on the extruder? That could go before the End Build in the End Gcode.

[funmakerBart]

Just add M103 (stop extruder) 

Is it something to add in the end code?

With this version I have added the fan on command M126 as well in the startcode. and M127 in the endcode. 

I just set all that fan commands to 100. With the replicator 1 the extruder fans are not reacting to this, but to the temperature of the extruder. At 60 degrees they start spinning. I assume with the Rep2 as well.

The extra cooling fan is responding to that M126/7 command (the Rep1 has also a Mosfet to switch with this command).

As workaround to switch that fan on on layer two:

1. disable /delete the M126 command in the startcode.
   
2. @ the printer setting you use, go to the belonging Ptr G-code field, Set the box [*] N layers to 2.
3. In the N[*] Layers Gcode field enter M126

Resulting in switching the fan on at layer 2. (and layer 4-6-8-10 etc as well, but that's no problem, it keeps on)

I better post settings / etc on the Kisslicer forum further on.

Bart

[funmakerBart]

@TobyCWoods , Wingcommander whpthomas , bill plemmons and othres using this settings 

Do you mind to look at the last uploaded settings for any errors or comments ? Would be nice to be able to provide hassle-free settings for new Kisslicer  users IMO.

Bart

[KM Design]

Hi Bart,

Thanks for posting this stuff. I've been trying out your Replicator 2 (Makerbot not Sailfish) profile. I had a couple of false starts. Kisslicer isn't replacing the <TEMP> tag you placed in the Start Gcode so the extruder didn't heat up on my first try. I manually changed the start code to solve it. The second try all the layers basically piled on top of each other which I fixed by changing Printer>Offset>Z to zero. The third attempt is printing now and seems to be progressing fine.

Kevin

[funmakerBart]

Great, you are talking over this settings: https://groups.google.com/d/msg/makerbot/8hQ9ZjrX-S4/kHG0AUu7RmEJ ?

Be sure you use it with KS 110c various versions  posted as well. TobyCwoods had similar problems because of using an older version of Kisslicer.

When not: be sure to set the appropriate material at the extruder tab. When still not having that <TEMP> set automaticly, please post, because IMO  that's a signal of a wrong assumption somewhere.

The printer offset and Bed roughness are being used to have a more fat first extrusion. With a flat plate you can set them all to zero of course.

[Dan Newman]

On 26 Feb 2013 , at 11:28 AM, funmakerBart wrote:

> Just add M103 (stop extruder)
> Is it something to add in the end code?
>
> With this version I have added the fan on command M126 as well in the
> startcode. and M127 in the endcode.
> I just set all that fan commands to 100. With the replicator 1 the extruder
> fans are not reacting to this, but to the temperature of the extruder.

It's hard coded in the replicator 1 & 2 firmware (MBI and Sailfish) to enable the
extruder fan when the extruder temp is 50C or higher.

Dan

[Wingcommander whpthomas]

So Bart I have a few questions.

If I want to use the Firmware de-prime, I assume that I set mark path start/stop to M101/3 and enable de-string but set prime and suck to 0.

Does that sound about right?

[funmakerBart]

Yes, then you have still the possibility to use the wipe function.

I posted somewhere else: About destringing:

First you have to choose if you want the to do destringing (suck and prime) with the firmware(Sailfish, not MB) or with the slicer.

destringing by Sailfish 

• In the onboard preferences of Sailfish set suck and prime to 16 steps (or what you have tweaked)
• this suck and prime only reacts on M101(prime) and M103(suck) commands
• Make this option active (for each printer setting you want)  in Kisslicer under Printer//Firmware//Mark Path start and stop. Choose the M101/3 option
• Because of that you don't want to have an additional suck and prime generated by Kisslicer. For that: disable the "destring" option at the style tab

destringing by Kisslicer:

• You can leave the destring settings of Sailfish as they are, but disable the  Printer//Firmware//Mark Path start and stop by setting it to "none" which results in no generation of M101/M103 commands. So the Sailfish retraction and prime is inactive.
  
• At the style Tab: make sure you have the Destring option checked.
  
• When active Kisslicer does the following actions regarding destringing as defined at the Material tab. (so you must adjust it for each material):
  

1. when the destring on the style tab is checked > go to 2
2. before traveling: look at the minimum jump. when the travel is less then the minimum jump > go to 4  when the travel is more then the minimum jump > go to 3
3. wipe, backtrack the printed path #mm, unless # = 0 > go to 4
4. look at Trigger: when the travel is less then the number in mm for trigger > go to 7, when its more go to 5
5. suck #mm > go to 6
6. travel to the next print spot and prime #mm
7. travel to the next print spot and don't prime

definitions used in Kisslicer (my interpretation)

• Before a travel: retraction is Suck
  

• After a travel, befor starting the actual print: extruding a little is Prime
  
• Before travel going back a little on the allready extruded path is Wipe
  
• Some firmware versions also do a suck and prime because of M101 and M103 commands. These don't have to be mixed with the KS suck and prime.
  

• Minimum jump is used for the Wipe function. 
  
• Trigger is used for the Prime and suck function
  

• The speed @ destring applies to the extruders (A,B,E) not to the Wipe function (X,Y (settings used at the speed tab and slider) and Z (Z-speed on the speed tab).

[Wingcommander whpthomas]

So I think I have the settings sorted out - have uploaded my version of these files for Replicator 2's with sailfish firmware.

Thanks Bart for making a start on these - however your build plate geometry and start and end gcode needed updating.

I am really impressed with how fast and accurate Kisslicer is at slicing, it uses much less memory and produces tidy results. I am in the middle of printing my first big 9 hour test print - which I will be comparing with a similar ReplicatorG print when its done. So far the sailfish deprime is working well and the print is going at a cracking pace - just need to get some progress codes inserted into the gcode.

[TobyCWoods]

I tried turning off the Destring and using the FW... it seems KS is a bit better at it but I think it slows it a tiny bit.

Start gcode should have the starting point off to the right rather then the left since the paths start from the right with KS.

Using the Temp switching... i.e., higher temp for the first layer then a lower temp... it seems the Rep2 is not too good at quick temp setting changes and the switch lets it cool down a bit too much. I find that the difference needs to be small and it's better for stick to simply set the downward fan to turn on at the second layer.

After the EXTREME speed in slicing... the next thing that I love is to be able to manipulate support alot more and actually get to see it before you print. Then there's the 3 types of infill! Again you get to see the impact of your selection before you melt plastic.

[Dan Newman]

>
> Using the Temp switching... i.e., higher temp for the first layer then
> a lower temp... it seems the Rep2 is not too good at quick temp
> setting changes

This is true of at least all Makerbots. Maybe other RepRaps as well.
The PID tuning is such
that when you lower the temp, it severely undershoots before recovering.

Dan

[funmakerBart]

Hi, 

If you are ok, I can post at KS this settings as a flavor with Sailfish retraction. Because of  in the materials, all the suck and prime are set to zero and using the FW destringing, I think it's better to delete the Makerbot style printer, which can't use FW retraction.

some questions:

• at the material tab you have set the keep warm at 90 degrees. I think the keep warm is only used when printing dual for the inactive extruder. To avoid confusion maybe better set it to 210 degrees?
  
• also the material tab: the minimum layer time is set to 2 seconds. Isn't that to short. When not using extra cooling I use 8 seconds. With additional cooling still 6 seconds. Is the rep2 cooling enough for 2 seconds layer time?
• the extrusion width is always difficult. Best is to set it to nozzle diameter as you did with more loops next to each other. I tested Kisslicer with single loops and have concluded that for thin walls of 1 extrusion width there are minimum extrusion width to be used with different layer heights. That's the reason I have tweaked the settings a little at the style tab
• So, the minimum extrusion width @ layerheight is:

Layer	Minimal Width
0.05	0.5
0.1	0.4
0.15	0.35
0.2	0.3
0.25	0.3
0.3	0.3
0.35	0.35
0.4	0.4
0.45	0.45
0.5	0.5

I'll change the bed size for the rep2 as well the start Gcode. I assume the setting for starting the fan on the # layer Gcode tab is clear for all Rep2 users?

Bart

[TobyCWoods]

Just to clarify in your table "Layer"= Layer Thickness and "Minimal Width"= Extrusion Width... on the Style tab... ?

On Tuesday, February 19, 2013 4:54:41 PM UTC-8, TobyCWoods wrote:

Well I can't figure Slic3R out at all!  No idea how to use this thing. Does not seem to have an image of the stl only the bottom layer. Not what I would call user friendly... even compared to RepG... and it crashes on me.

Kisslicer... I put in my settings and it generates gcode that RepG no like.

Anybody get Kissllicer to work? it is sure quick, but the images of things made using it do not look nearly as nice as what I'm getting with SF.

[funmakerBart]

You are absolutely correct.

[Wingcommander whpthomas]

Layer	Minimal Width
0.05	0.5
0.1	0.4
0.15	0.35
0.2	0.3
0.25	0.3
0.3	0.3
0.35	0.35
0.4	0.4
0.45	0.45
0.5	0.5

 

This table seems a little odd to me - why the move back up to 0.5 for 0.1 mm prints, when 0.15mm are 0.35 wide?

[Wingcommander whpthomas]

• at the material tab you have set the keep warm at 90 degrees. I think the keep warm is only used when printing dual for the inactive extruder. To avoid confusion maybe better set it to 210 degrees?
  

We don't have a HBP or second extruder so should probably set it to 0 so as not to confuse as to what its purpose is.

 

• also the material tab: the minimum layer time is set to 2 seconds. Isn't that to short. When not using extra cooling I use 8 seconds. With additional cooling still 6 seconds. Is the rep2 cooling enough for 2 seconds layer time?

This works for me - we do have a blower fan, and if you dwell with PLA too much the nozzle introduces heat soak onto the part. Quicker is cooler.

 

• the extrusion width is always difficult. Best is to set it to nozzle diameter as you did with more loops next to each other. I tested Kisslicer with single loops and have concluded that for thin walls of 1 extrusion width there are minimum extrusion width to be used with different layer heights. That's the reason I have tweaked the settings a little at the style tab
• So, the minimum extrusion width @ layerheight is:

 I will defer to your experience here.

[funmakerBart]

1 Ok, that value you set to 90 degrees is not for the HPB but for the extruder. Only the Bed temp is for the HPB. Maybe I misunderstood you, but because you set it to 90 degrees I thought it had a reason. IMO better to set al the temps to about the working temp and the bed to zero.

2 Ok, nice only 2 seconds layer time needed.

3 About the relation extrusion width-layer height-speed-fine detailed objects: it's no fixed optimal number. For fine details I set it sometimes to 0.25mm with multiple loops. 

Agree about the the odd results! I got this when testing the minimum needed path with in relation to layer height with single extrusion: It was not what I was expecting either, but simply the result of a day testpatterns printing for each value. 

When starting with Kisslicer, there where no settings to start with. Ddstarkey has made a testpattern generator for various settings (as speed, flow, layer height, suck and prime, temperature, path width). We tested both a lot and merged our findings.When getting other results, please report! 

BTW: these are single extrusions: you could slice with a smaller path with when loops are lying next to each other.

Some pics form the patterns tested with each 2 variables with a min-max setting.

[funmakerBart]

I uploaded the adjusted configs for Kisslicer to the Kisslicer forum. 

• One version for the Replicator 1. In the printer settings  two choices to use Sailfish firmware or MB firmware.
  
• Two versions for the Replicator 2:
• a version based on the retraction and prime (destringing) of Kisslicer. also a choice to use either Sailfish or MB firmware
• a version based on retraction and prime handled by the Sailfish firmware.

To download them you have to register @ Kisslicer I'm afraid. Also you have to be prepared to log in 5 times with annoying security questions. After that you are free.

http://kisslicer.com/forum/index.php?topic=443.0

There is a free version and a more complete paid Pro version. Could be bought as well to support the developer I suppose. 

Thanks all for giving feedback!

Bart

[happyman]

Check this out - Reprap Magazine - have posted a informative comparison between CURA, SLIC3R and KISSLICER.

http://reprapmagazine.com/



On Wednesday, February 20, 2013 8:51:32 AM UTC+7, funmakerBart wrote:

Hi, I print a couple of months with KS. I compared the output after fine-tuning between RepG, Slic3r and Kisslicer: at the end it's about the same print quality. You have to take the time to tweak the settings.

Main difference: Slic3r can print multi colored objects and support. Kisslicer one-coulored objects but can print the support with the second extruder (Pro version)

IMO is the support generation of KS superior as well the speed of slicing and the 3D Gcode representation.

But all the slicers have a good and bad side. I decide with each object which slicer is the best for it.

Attached are my 'basic 'settings for the Replicator 1 and the current Beta of KS for Windows 64. Other OS versions are on the KS forum. The same setting files should work with them too. They have to be in the same folder as the KS program.

About the settings; I made them a little more simple for this upload. They all use the firmware flavor "makerbot style" so they can be used with MB firmware as well. Normally I use Sailfish as well the absolute E flavor belonging to that. But MB firmware can't handle G92 E0 commands.

Also: the material settings for PLA, ABS and Nylon should be about right, but measure the filament you use and change the value in KS

Same for the used temperatures for the HPB and extrusion. They can all be set in the Material tab, so no need to adjust the startcode (there are placeholders for that)

There are specific Gcodes attached to each printer setting, I use a little different start/end code. When to be sure, just copy and paste your Gcode you normally use with RepG in the Gcode fields.

For dual extrusion you have to buy the pro KS version (40 dollar or so). The Gcode extruder change for that is based on ReplicatorG40 with the new toolhead offset system. (which only needs a M108 T0/1 command and not the G54/55 style commands).

I hope it works out for you.

When using a Replicator 2: I can't imagine there are a lot of setting different, but be sure to use the belonging start and end codes for your printer, and copy/paste them in the belonging fields.. Also the bed size can be different from the Rep1.

Bart

[Wingcommander whpthomas]

Check this out - Reprap Magazine - have posted a informative comparison between CURA, SLIC3R and KISSLICER.

Thanks for this it was an interesting read.

[JohnD]

'tis - but Rich missed out on tuning your slicer for the print.  I use Kiss for strechlets all the time! :-)

[Wingcommander whpthomas]

I ran a bunch of test cubes and found that KISSlicer needed quite a bit of calibration to get it to print well. So here are my calibrated settings for Printing PLA on the Replicator 2. The Nylon settings are still a work in progress.

Some interesting things I ran into:

• I found I had to adjust the Material->Flow Tweak down to 0.65 to get a dimensionally accurate print. It was just putting out way too much plastic.
  
• I also disabled the Flow min and max - leaving it up to the firmware to limit the extrusion speed - which I believe is as it should be.
• Using firmware deprime with KISSlicer leads to gaps in perimeter extrusion, so I used the prime and suck settings instead.
• All the fan/cooling controls need to be set to 0 to prevent M106/7 codes being generated which have cause problems with the Replicator 2.
• I moved the pre-prime location to the right hand side in the start code, so the smear doesn't cross underneath the workpiece. In reality, it should probably be moved to the back right corner.
• I set the Inset surface to -0.01 to compensate for 20mm blocks printing at 19.8mm now they are closer to 20mm +/- 0.05mm.
• Included are profiles from 100 micron up to 340 micron, some with stacked fills for faster printing. There are also default PLA materials for 1.7, 1.75 and 1.8mm filament. You can also select between Sailfish and Makerbot firmware.

All in all I am pretty impressed with KISSlicer, it slices quickly and resolves many models quite nicely, but not all. These settings are a work in progress, but they have all been tested and should get you started exploring the joys of KISSlicer with your Replicator 2.

[funmakerBart]

Great whpthomas, you have tweaked this already to such a level! 

I hope by this there will be more users being able to use Kisslicer. 

For me, there is no 'best 'slicer, but for each job a best suitable slicer. Regarding speed and support generation is Kisslicer for me the best for example. And Slic3r for dual colored objects.

I would like to invite people to use the Kisslicer forum as well, when it comes to more general discussions about Kisslicer, as well posting good settings for Makerbot machines.

By this more people, beside Makerbot users, benefit from efforts of others. Also, the developer of Kisslicer is able to respond regarding raised questions.

Makerbot owners aren't used to it on this forum ;-)  but at forums like Kisslicer there is a normal discussion between users and developers as well. 

Like it should be; it surely leads to a more positive atmosphere from what I have seen and understand -not natively English speaking. At the Jetty forum I see this as well.

Jonathan is the developer of Kisslicer, and is really responsive, willing to help and implement features were possible . But when not aware of questions, he can't do it.

http://www.kisslicer.com/forum/

Unfortunately for posting and downloading beta's you have to register. Because of fighting spam, you have to log-in 5 times with annoying security questions.

When you like the program, consider to buy the PRO version of 42 dollar, maybe also to support the developer.

[Wingcommander whpthomas]

Bart,

FYI: I posted these on the KISSlicer forum as well.

[Wingcommander whpthomas]

Here are examples of the test cubes I printed using 1.69mm diameter PLA.

[funmakerBart]

Looking good! I have posted a question at the KS forum, to ask how is dealt with the way KS works regarding the measurement of the STL and what's taken into account (except half the perimeter extrusion width)

I'm curious about the reason of the flow tweak, is it a Kisslicer thing (which is not good) or a firmware setting?   It can be a signal of a deeper problem.

I'm sure you know way more of it than I ever being able to, but have you tweaked the K and K1 setting of Sailfish? There seems some over extrusion at the corners.

Thanks taking the time investigating Kisslicer and reporting!

[JohnD]

"Flow tweak" is a filament density adjustment - like extrusion multiplier in slic3r or packing density in Skeinforge.

[Joseph Chiu]

This looks to me like a multi-tower problem.  When moving between towers, especially longer distances, stringing/oozing  will sometimes catch a wall that is in the path of the travel between the two objects, causing more stringing/oozing.  In that process, it also empties the extruder head by some amount, and when the extrusion is being resume, the first few tenths of mm extrudes empty.  This forms gaps that sometimes likes to travel around the object, as extrusion restarts won't actually restart for some distance, and the resulting gap causes layer-building problems for follow-on layers.

If this is turns out to be the cas,e you can partly reduce this by reducing stringing and oozing by lowering the temperature and/or increasing cooling.  I also have turned on "hop" in SF, which seemed to help as well.

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[Wingcommander whpthomas]

The blob is from back pressure in the extruder, as soon as the loop ends, more primed filament still flows out - I think skeinforge used the comb module to limit the effects of this.

[Wingcommander whpthomas]

The blob is from back pressure in the extruder, as soon as the loop ends, more primed filament still flows out - I think skeinforge used the comb module to limit the effects of this.

 I thought that before I go off making such brash statement comparing KISSlicer to skeinforge I should confirm with some data.

I ran 8 x 20 x 20 x 1mm test blocks at temps from 200c up to 235c. As you can see there is almost no decreeable difference, other than the pre-prime ooz being much more noticeable above 200c. Then I wondered if I had left the skirt off in my previous test prints - so I ran one without the skirt and the blob showed up. So I suspect a lack of a suitable skirt effected printing in that top right corner.

[funmakerBart]

I think we hit my language limits again. Skirt, as in an extra outline extrusion offset round the object (as a mini warm chamber)? (maybe use the Pillar function of KS for that?) Back pressure? as to be compensated by a fast retraction at extrusion end (should be adjustable I assume in KS by increasing suck? Mabe increase the retraction speed to 60mm/s) ? Comb, I thought it was only to avoid stringing in internal holes of SF? I thought that over extrusion was at all corners (that's why I suggested something about the K1 K settings). But when it is at one corner, and you defined Loops going to the outside, it's at the place it travels to the infill of the same layer. Or it's because of to much prime at the first loop of the new layer, pressing all out at that place.

Difficuld to tell with the simple CB cube. It is to limited because of one loop and each time the same landing spot.

But I'm probably not understanding it well. You have far more insight then I have.

[JohnD]

Dr WHP - you using the release version or the current Alpha of Kiss?

[Wingcommander whpthomas]

Dr WHP - you using the release version or the current Alpha of Kiss?

 

I am using version 1.10 (beta)