Is Makerbot Industries losing their vision?

[Kendall lui]

With the new release that Thing-o-matic kits will no longer be sold it
is hard to say whether Makerbot will be the DIY company as it once
was. I understand that they are still posting opensource files but it
seems that they have cut the DIY community off. Many of us want the
DIY kit. The words "Fully Assembled" scares us because we love to
build things. Yes, this will allow 3D printing to get into the hands
of the average Joe, but what happened to supporting the DIY community?
The DIY community is Makerbot's past who supported the little company.
It should be easy to sell both kits and pre-assembled which would
reach both the average consumer and the DIY market. Anyone have
anything to say? Am I completely wrong? If you agree we need to show
makerbot to create a derivative of the old makerbot to create a
brilliant company!

[Moceri]

The beauty of open source is that you may build one yourself. The
plans and schematics are out there for anybody to make their own, or a
derivative. You can still get most of the necessary parts to build a
ToM, except the structural wood, from MBI. Then just source all the
other listed parts not available form MBI store from McMaster or
another supplier. Or go to your local hackerspace or user group for
assistance.

MBI may not be sourcing the parts anymore for DIY kits because, as a
growing business, it's not sustainable to to so. Also, the cost is
very high to package kits like the ToM, because there are so many
bits. More man power went into packing a ToM than it does to actually
build a Replicator from my understanding. They'll keep their products
open source so we may all contribute and tinker some more.

-Moceri

[Zip Zap]

As long as they continue to sell the Gen4 electronics then I would call that support.  However, I've been noticing that they keep being out of stock with those items.  That tells me that's not their priority.  As far as the hardware parts, they still sell the motors and extruders.  The other parts(box, rods, belts) can be purchased elsewhere.  The box for example can be purchased here:

http://builttospecstore.storenvy.com/collections/13701-all-products

You have to also realize that these kits are probably being upended with much simpler options like Printrbot: http://www.youtube.com/user/brookdrumm?feature=watch

and others like Makergear.

Even Printrbot http://printrbot.com/ offers an all in one Motherboard for $129. 

---

From: Kendall lui <undft...@gmail.com>
To: MakerBot Operators <make...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2012 10:25 PM
Subject: [MakerBot] Is Makerbot Industries losing their vision?

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[Cymon]

Sorry, which version are they losing? Their vision or your vision for them?

Has makerbot every been about anything other than providing 3D printers to people with open-ness and fairness for all? Since when were they about providing kits for the DIY community? There are plenty of places providing rep-rap kits. Makerbot never has.

[W. Craig Trader]

Kendall ...

MakerBot isn't a very old company, but they seem to have had a pretty consistent vision:  they want to get 3D printers into the hands of everyday users.  In the beginning, that meant Cupcake CNC kits, then Thing-O-Matic kits, but all along it's been pretty obvious that they weren't trying to sell RepRap kits.  Given a choice between 'machines making machines' and 'people making things', their technical decisions have always favored 'people making things'.  Thus the evolution from plastruders to stepstruders -- smaller and more efficient, but also very precisely machined parts that are harder to reproduce.  The designs are still open, and the software and firmware are open, but MakerBot provides serious value in packaging and assembly.

As far as I'm concerned, this is a Good Thing -- MakerBot will make money providing tools to people to make the things they need and want.  You feel that MakerBot isn't serving the DIY community, and perhaps this is correct:  if what you want to do is assemble new machines from a collection of parts, then MakerBot isn't serving you.  On the other hand, if what you want is to be able to use the machine to make things beyond parts for 3D printers, then MakerBot has a tool for you.

- Craig -

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[Jack Coats]

One great thing is they are making all their stuff 'open source'.

If you think they are 'doing it wrong', then 'go do right'. If the
market thinks you are
right, they will follow you.

You might figure out how to build kits, easily, inexpensively, give MakerBot a
nod for being your initial mentor, then sell your kit version of what
you think the
market needs.

If you are right, you sell a boat load, but be willing to allow
MakerBot to change
their mind and start selling kits again.

MakerBot is a bunch of makers, but they are also business people. They seem
to like to 'just do stuff' and give it all away, but they have learned
it takes money
to make, so they charge for their stuff. They also seem to be taking
a page from
the Apple playbook and are not afraid to charge a premium for it.
This just opens
up a niche for other 'little players' to join in the entrepreneurial fun.

I think they found out what lots of 'kit makers' have over the years.
Selling kits
and giving away service is more expensive than selling 'working,
assembled' units.
Not always, but often. This is ONE reason that we see few kits on the
market, IMHO.

Sorry for the soap box.

Anyway, if they are doing it 'worng' then do it 'better', is the basis
of what I am trying to communicate.
... Jack

[Moceri]

Hence, DIY!

[Luis E. Rodriguez]

They will sell you a Replicator unassembled by Far over a lunch break if you really want to assemble one. Do I want a laserless kit? Yes! But I will wait and buy the Mighty Board and put that in my ToM! :)

Luis E. Rodriguez

Are you a Maker?

[Moceri]

>But I will wait and buy the Mighty Board and put that in my ToM! :)

One up to that!

-Moceri

[Kendall lui]

Ok, I guess this makes sense like you guys said, " It is my vision
that I am seeing disappear." I guess its true and well this means...
the 3D printing revolution is truly taking off. A little faster than I
expected though! Keep up with your opinions though! I have a feeling
the mightyboard won't be in stock

[Luis E. Rodriguez]

Yeah it may be a while. But if you Flickrstalk them, you see shots that look like product shots for the store!@ :P

Luis E. Rodriguez

Are you a Maker?

[Travis]

Well, not being able to buy replacement parts for your bot kinda sucks.  When things are out of stock for more than 3 months, that means there's a problem.

MBI has been awesome when it comes to supporting their latest offering.  I'm a little worried what will happen when my Replicator gets bumped down the list.

[Rob Giseburt]

It sucks when replacement parts aren't available on their store, but if you are in a bind (iow, not upgrading) it may be worth the time to contact makerbot support and see if they can help. In the least, it helps them sense the demand.

  -Rob

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[clive...@gmail.com]

I did just as Rob suggested and they entered the order for me and I got my part in no time. It did not show as stock but they did manage to find on to get me out of a bind. Item was Y stepper.

Best regards,
Clive

Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone from SmarTone-Vodafone

---

From: Rob Giseburt <gise...@gmail.com>

Sender: make...@googlegroups.com

Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 22:11:01 -0500

To: make...@googlegroups.com<make...@googlegroups.com>

ReplyTo: make...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [MakerBot] Re: Is Makerbot Industries losing their vision?

[Travis]

Cool.  That's good to hear.

On Wednesday, April 18, 2012 11:05:59 PM UTC-5, Clive Munday wrote:

I did just as Rob suggested and they entered the order for me and I got my part in no time. It did not show as stock but they did manage to find on to get me out of a bind. Item was Y stepper.

Best regards,
Clive

Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone from SmarTone-Vodafone

---

From: Rob Giseburt <gise...@gmail.com>

Sender: make...@googlegroups.com

Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 22:11:01 -0500

To: make...@googlegroups.com<makerb...@googlegroups.com>

ReplyTo: make...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [MakerBot] Re: Is Makerbot Industries losing their vision?

It sucks when replacement parts aren't available on their store, but if you are in a bind (iow, not upgrading) it may be worth the time to contact makerbot support and see if they can help. In the least, it helps them sense the demand.

  -Rob

On Apr 18, 2012, at 10:06 PM, Travis wrote:

Well, not being able to buy replacement parts for your bot kinda sucks.  When things are out of stock for more than 3 months, that means there's a problem.

MBI has been awesome when it comes to supporting their latest offering.  I'm a little worried what will happen when my Replicator gets bumped down the list.

On Wednesday, April 18, 2012 8:43:59 PM UTC-5, Kendall lui wrote:

Ok, I guess this makes sense like you guys said, " It is my vision
that I am seeing disappear." I guess its true and well this means...
the 3D printing revolution is truly taking off. A little faster than I
expected though! Keep up with your opinions though! I have a feeling
the mightyboard won't be in stock

On Apr 18, 2:22 pm, Moceri <xmoce...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >But I will wait and buy the Mighty Board and put that in my ToM! :)
>
> One up to that!
>
> -Moceri

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[Greg Thorstad]

I think there is a little bit of confusion sometimes between what is available in the store and what is available as repair parts for your bot from Makerbot Support.   If your bot it broken contact the guys at support and they will try to help you out.  My experience with them has been nothing but good.  

 

 

Greg Thorstad, B. Comm.
Thorstad Computer/Thor3d.ca/Canadian Makerbot Distributor
Box 268
Outlook, SK
S0L 2N0
306 867-9596

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[Owen M Collins]

Agreed, I was able to get a replacement IDC cable bundled w/ an order of plastic. Another example of something that wasn't listed in the store, but they helped out.

O.

[alex e]

Kendall, its a good point you bring up.

Yes, MBI is changing, and I imagine a significant part is the pressure
from the hedge fund investment last year.
Its a big jump to go from kits to a consumer grade product, and I
think its fair to say that not only is that a vision change as you
pointed out, but will be a challenge.
The Replicator is a good example of this, no more kits. I'd expect
that MBI is working on a more polished next iteration to be even more
consumer friendly.

As for the open source comments, while most is, the important parts
aren't, like the extruder and other parts. With the hedge fund
pressure I'd expect a continued move from open source.

And yes, the "market" will tell, I'd argue that the success of
Printrbot and the less than expected sales of Replicator so far are a
good example; anyone could become a major player.

It looks like to many players in a rapidly changing market, which
reminds me of the personal computer market in the late 70s (kits to
complete to consumer grade).

Time will tell.

[W. Craig Trader]

On Fri, Apr 20, 2012 at 09:23, alex e <alexand...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> As for the open source comments, while most is, the important parts
> aren't, like the extruder and other parts.  With the hedge fund
> pressure I'd expect a continued move from open source.

The extruder is open source, in that the plans and specifications are
available (https://github.com/makerbot/Stepstruder-MK7). On the other
hand, as is the case with many CAD/CAM tools, the source files aren't
necessarily portable -- you'll need proprietary software to read the
files. Not as Open as we might hope, but they've got a business to
run.

> And yes, the "market" will tell, I'd argue that the success of
> Printrbot and the less than expected sales of Replicator so far are a
> good example; anyone could become a major player.

Less than expected sales for the Replicator? Excuse me? Last time I
checked, MBI was over-whelmed with demand for the Replicator. As for
the success of the Printrbot, while everyone expects good things, the
last time I checked, they still hadn't delivered a single production
printer, just beta-test units, and they are having serious problems
with PayPal.

> It looks like to many players in a rapidly changing market, which
> reminds me of the personal computer market in the late 70s (kits to
> complete to consumer grade).
>
> Time will tell.

That, I agree with -- it's really too soon to tell.

- Craig -

[alex e]

Just because MBI has had a 8-12 week delay, and problems with having
to redo all of the build platforms doesn't mean the sales are what
were expected; I stand by what I said, that the build issues, delays,
and cheaper alternatives have led to lower than expected sales. Being
"overwhelmed" in this case means production issues, not excess demand.




On Apr 20, 9:37 am, "W. Craig Trader" <craig.tra...@gmail.com> wrote:

[akr...@yahoo.com]

On Apr 20, 8:37 am, "W. Craig Trader" <craig.tra...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Fri, Apr 20, 2012 at 09:23, alex e <alexander_em...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> The extruder is open source, in that the plans and specifications are
> available (https://github.com/makerbot/Stepstruder-MK7).

Doesn't the Replicator ship with MK8 extruders?
I can convert SolidWorks files if needed, but I'm not sure what the
best format should be for the open source community.

[W. Craig Trader]

Only difference between the Mk7 and Mk8 extruder is the nozzle. I'm
sure they'll get the new plans uploaded at some point; open source
hardware doesn't always mean 'plans available the first day of sales'.

- Craig -

[Mark Cohen]

Actually based on what I have seen in the forums, the MK8 probably has
a 24v resister and the plunger only uses 2 metal washers.

[W. Craig Trader]

I must have missed the traffic on the changed heater core. IMO, two
washers or three, you're still better off with one of the
spring-loaded or adjustable tension extruder improvements, than using
the stock Delrin plunger.

- Craig -

[W. Craig Trader]

Unless you've got numbers to back up your claims, it's just your opinion.

- Craig -

[alex e]

Mark, I'd argue the same thing for people saying the sales are great.
Cuts both ways.

That being said, I have heard that the current investors are
disappointed with the current sales (lower than projected) and added
cost of having to redo the build platform.

I'll admit I am watching companies like MBI closely for a potential
investment opportunity.


On Apr 20, 10:17 am, Mark Cohen <markcoh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I really do hate when people just say things and have no facts to back
> them up. So tell us how you know
>
> "that the build issues, delays,and cheaper alternatives have led to
> lower than expected sales. "
>
> Please point us to where you have found that information as I think
> many of us would like to know that.

[alex e]

You mean people have opinions on the internet? Sorry, couldn't
resist.

Yes, I have a differing opinion than many here, but it is not without
a fair amount of analysis.

[Luis E. Rodriguez]

Not that this matters but its' always had a 24V 80W heater but run at 12V so it runs at 40W? I don't know, not sure matters. The only difference that matters is the MK8 nozzle. Buy it and PLA works much better! And Rob Giseburts Acceleration Firmware, just do it.

 

Gosh, not really sure what to say about who knows what, people in that biz talk to one another, but I can say with confidence when you have VC funding you answer to them for certain milestones. We may never know what those milestones are but you can be sure they are look for an ROI, even if they do believe in the model. I really dont' care about it being a kit, which other company doesn't void your warranty if you take apart their machine? It's a huge timesaver and we all have experienced ourselves or read posts that really originate with faulty user construction in the first place

 

Quite frankly, despite what anybody has ever said about MBI, they have always done better year after year. The only thing that has changed is the amount of haters. It's easy for us to armchair dull out business management but most of us have zero idea of what it really takes.

 

I think they are doing are fine, I for one have pride they choose to assemble in the U.S. and not overseas.

 

If I could give advice I'd say let's tackle the software experience for the user. I hat eto say it but I love what I see when I see the UP! software or soemthign like NetFabb. Hell I just tried Slic3r for my ToM and holy crapballs does it slice fast! WOW!

 

This dialog is good as long as it ends in lessons learned for the expansion of the movement. You can't get hurt feelings in this hobby/movement. There are too many printers to choose from and it's up to you to tune it to perfection.

Luis E. Rodriguez

Are you a Maker?

[Benjamin Rockhold]

Sorry. I'm playing the authority card and asking how you know that we're seeing "lower than expected sales." That's a made-up fact you can't support.

Fact of the matter is that we have seen volume surpassing our expectations, even the generous expectations made in the afterglow of CES 2012.

Please don't hearsay without backing it up. Opinions are one thing, but you can't pose them as facts.

> As for the open source comments, while most is, the important parts
> aren't, like the extruder and other parts.  With the hedge fund
> pressure I'd expect a continued move from open source.

"The extruder and other parts" like what? The MK8 is an MK7 with a new nozzle (source available), 24v heaters (for the 24v power supply...), a new mounting bar to connect to the Replicator carriage, and only marginally different washers to apply plunger force.

What else is not open source about the Replicator? I honestly don't know how you came to that conclusion. If we've been a little slow on the release of files, well, real-world business has been more complex than the idealistic goals we set for ourselves. The plans were in flux right up to the point where they made it onto thingiverse.

[Luis E. Rodriguez]

I lieu of a bearing I bent one of the washers to create a bent spring washer. It's working for now but I expect another channel to form in the delrin. I had two big ones. I plan to implement one of the alternate bearing designs as well or attempt to turn my own delrin plunger with a spring behind it or a set distance.

 

Ok end hijack thread.

Luis E. Rodriguez

Are you a Maker?

On Fri, Apr 20, 2012 at 10:32 AM, Mark Cohen <markc...@gmail.com> wrote:

Yes, I do not like the pluger idea. Right now on my MK7's when I just
build them they stick out a bit from the side. As time progresses I
press them in a bit when the filament has issues. They are kind of
flat with the side at the moment. I guess when I open the extruder up
I will find some wear on them. Many people have proven that the best
way is with a bearing.

On Fri, Apr 20, 2012 at 10:33 AM, W. Craig Trader

[alex e]

Mark/Ben/Craig:
As for my investors comment, MBI is looking for another round of
funding, and Foundry is considering potentially selling parts of their
stake, so information on MBI, both the good and bad is available. As
a private company there is no SEC oversight or 10K for us all to look
at 'facts', so industry rumor/hearsay has a lot of sway. I'm sure
those involved have NDAs and cant publicly discuss.

Of course anyone at MBI is going to make public statements about how
great things are, but the reality based on analysis of sales and their
financial situation is different (even if crudely done based on
information available). Until Feld or someone else from the Foundry
Group makes a statement, or we see actual sales numbers, I stand by
what I said.

Also, please don't think I'm not a fan, I want them to succeed, I just
think we should all hold an intelligent discussion, and consider what
lies ahead for 3d printing and those of us who own one of their
products.


On Apr 20, 11:41 am, Mark Cohen <markcoh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I agree with you Ben, I always like someone to come up with facts,
> Rumors are damaging and if someone were to take the comment as fact
> that would indeed be bad for business. He goes on to say "The
> Investors" are not happy. How on earth can someone know that, if they
> are not themselves running the company. I'd like to see where that
> information came from also. My personal opinion is that business is so
> good in fact that you can't keep the parts in stock fast enough to
> both produce the machines and have a surplus of parts to put out in
> the store. That is why we do not see any of the electronics or
> extruders out there. Certainly if they were available then people
> would be buying them right up.
>
> Thanks,
> Mark
>
> On Fri, Apr 20, 2012 at 11:12 AM, Benjamin Rockhold

> > --
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[Luis E. Rodriguez]

Water-jet cut aluminum model please! ;P

Luis E. Rodriguez

Are you a Maker?

On Fri, Apr 20, 2012 at 12:19 PM, Mark Cohen <markc...@gmail.com> wrote:

Well I guess then there really is no information available on this
then as I do not yet see a response with links. (By the way I have
worked in the Securities industry for 26 years and I think someone at
my company would have let me know if something was up).  All I can
find are good things. Please don't post opinions as facts as it does
not do anyone any good. I'll give some facts since I live pretty close
to their factory and this is public knowledge anyway They have
expanded again and are hiring. You can see this on some of their
previous blog posts. And if they are looking for funding, well more
power to them, I'm sure it is to further expand not to make up for any
perceived loss.

On Fri, Apr 20, 2012 at 12:14 PM, Mark Cohen <markc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Since you did not send any links to the information, I tried a web
> search and could not find anything on this. Please provide some links.
>
> Thanks.

[alex e]

http://xkcd.com/386/

On Apr 20, 2:05 pm, Mark Cohen <markcoh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> LOL.
> This was obviously absurd because an investor would never advertise
> that their stake is no good as this could reduce it's value and would
> indicate poor judgement on their part.
>
> On Fri, Apr 20, 2012 at 1:39 PM, Luis E. Rodriguez

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> <lrodriguezm...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Water-jet cut aluminum model please! ;P
>
> > Luis E. Rodriguez
> > Are you a Maker?
>

> > On Fri, Apr 20, 2012 at 12:19 PM, Mark Cohen <markcoh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> Well I guess then there really is no information available on this
> >> then as I do not yet see a response with links. (By the way I have
> >> worked in the Securities industry for 26 years and I think someone at
> >> my company would have let me know if something was up).  All I can
> >> find are good things. Please don't post opinions as facts as it does
> >> not do anyone any good. I'll give some facts since I live pretty close
> >> to their factory and this is public knowledge anyway They have
> >> expanded again and are hiring. You can see this on some of their
> >> previous blog posts. And if they are looking for funding, well more
> >> power to them, I'm sure it is to further expand not to make up for any
> >> perceived loss.
>

> >> On Fri, Apr 20, 2012 at 12:14 PM, Mark Cohen <markcoh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > Since you did not send any links to the information, I tried a web
> >> > search and could not find anything on this. Please provide some links.
>
> >> > Thanks.
>

> >> > On Fri, Apr 20, 2012 at 12:01 PM, alex e <alexander_em...@hotmail.com>

[Mark Cohen]

There is a difference between being wrong and making things up, particularly if it is an attempt to hurt someone's business.

Sent from my iPhone

[Richard]

I worked for Compaq in the old days. Whenever we introduced a new
product, service got first dibbs on parts to support customers. For
ongoing products, service had priority. When a product went out of
production, service did a lifetime buy to provide support for five
years.
Our view was our existing customers deserved priority and that it
costs ten times as much to acquire a customer vs having a repeat
customer. Also, only about one in one thousand customers with a
problem will let you know they are unhappy, but most will tell
others.

The message is,"keep your customers happy."

[Chris Brent]

And where's Compaq now......

[Dan Newman]

On 25 Apr 2012 , at 3:14 PM, Chris Brent wrote:

> And where's Compaq now...…

Acquired by a Company which, among other things, wanted/covetted Compaq's customer
base. I distinctly recall that as one of HP's motivations in the quarterly report.
Yes, the cost of acquiring new customers is very high and the costs exists across
a large variety of sectors. (ISPs and Wireless providers which I deal with a lot
all talk about this all the time when they add new services.)

Dan

[Joseph Chiu]

Yeah, and for a long time, those customers were vocally loyal to
Compaq so the acquiring company had to continue selling systems under
both names... Compaq had a solid reputation for doing right by their
customers and building solid and/or advanced products.

[Dan Newman]

On 25 Apr 2012 , at 3:23 PM, Joseph Chiu wrote:

> Yeah, and for a long time, those customers were vocally loyal to
> Compaq so the acquiring company had to continue selling systems under
> both names... Compaq had a solid reputation for doing right by their
> customers and building solid and/or advanced products.

Not to mention the die hard DEC customers (OpenVMS, DEC Alpha, etc.)
still around from Compaq's acquisition of Digital. I was one of them.

Dan