Toxic smell from ABS
Peter Harrington
Whosawhatsis
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Kurt Wendt
So its nice to know I can finally be one of those who offers up advice.
Yes - this smell IS Quite Normal. How toxic is it - well, that is
somewhat debatable. I've heard some people get headaches from it! So -
you certainly don't want to be sucking up these fumes in any big way -
that's for sure. I Too have thought about rigging up a venting system.
However, for now - I operate mine at home - in my home office - and I
crack open the top of a window to try to Vent it out - and I also keep
the door closed. And, I generally do not sit around it while its working
- although I have done that at times - and I just push myself a little
ways away from it.
U didn't mention what system you have! A TOM? Personally- I have a Cupcake.
I recently did a lot of work on my Bot with another Big Time Bot guy -
who has not 1 or 2 of them - but, FIVE operational Bots. We actually
spoke about these fumes. And, he seems not to have as much problems with
the smells as I do. Mine - I was generally printing at 220C - however,
he said that it should print fine at 210C. And, the most recent piece I
was printing - I actually modified the GCode to specifically have it
print at 210 - and it seems to be working fine.
-K-
Whosawhatsis
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Peter Harrington
Adam White
does as well if she happens to be in the room. I pretty much have to
open the window, leave the fan on and shut the door.
I am going to build a fume hood as well as we have a newborn in the
house and this doesn't seem like something to mess with
Adam
On Nov 20, 1:10 pm, Peter Harrington <peter.b.harring...@gmail.com>
wrote:
Jordan Miller
said plastics when heated or burning (heating at any temperature is
definitely accelerating the oxidation of a ton of it, this is the
definition of burning).
plastic doesn't have to be in flames to produce dangerous fumes.
you wouldn't sit in a running car in a closed one-car garage. you're
also not supposed to hang around a gasoline pump for long periods.
don't breathe fumes from your printer!
if you are pressed for options then I believe PLA has never been
reported to give headaches. but I wouldn't trust this one tooooo much
either.
strong ventilation FTW.
jordan
Luke C
than needed, I've never needed to be above 220C for most grades of
ABS. I can vouch for the direct correlation of fumes and temperature.
I'm working with PolyCarbonate at the moment, and once didn't do a
good job of reversing my ABS out first. The ABS fumes were downright
intolerable at 260C until they had all been purged. Printing ABS at
220 in a large room and I don't get any fumes unless I stick my nose
close to the machine.
I do worry makerbot is going to find themselves in trouble when
parents of children who have a machine in the classroom take a wiff of
burning plastic from a teacher running their bot a little hot (or even
at the recommended temp). Were I using a machine in a such a setting
I'd definitely be getting used to PLA.
On Nov 20, 1:25 pm, Jordan Miller <jrdn...@gmail.com> wrote:
> don't breathe plastic fumes. an msds will NOT tell you the dangers of
> said plastics when heated or burning (heating at any temperature is
> definitely accelerating the oxidation of a ton of it, this is the
> definition of burning).
>
> plastic doesn't have to be in flames to produce dangerous fumes.
>
> you wouldn't sit in a running car in a closed one-car garage. you're
> also not supposed to hang around a gasoline pump for long periods.
> don't breathe fumes from your printer!
>
> if you are pressed for options then I believe PLA has never been
> reported to give headaches. but I wouldn't trust this one tooooo much
> either.
>
> strong ventilation FTW.
>
> jordan
>
Jordan Miller
reaction rate. the other problem to keep in mind i think is that some
people mistake their inability to perceive the fumes as confirmation
the fumes are not occurring. over time, much like body odor
unfortunately, the brain will stop allowing you to smell or notice the
fumes being produced. headaches and other physical effects are all the
evidence that remains for ABS fumes...
newcomers to 3d printers often mention the burning ABS smell first
while old timers don't really notice it. plenty of personal experience
here too.
and if you're up at 260 C for polycarbonate you really gotta start
watching out for rapid Teflon degradation IIRC, right? do you have a
Teflon-containing hot-end? is there a canary nearby? :)
jordan
The Ruttmeister
> said plastics when heated or burning (heating at any temperature is
> definitely accelerating the oxidation of a ton of it, this is the
> definition of burning).
Actually MSDS is essentially required to provide data on chemicals
produced when the material is burnt. And ABS releases both Styrene (a
carcinogen) and Hydrogen Cyanide (that's the one that smells of
almonds and can kill you, there's no treatment for that one as far as
I know). They list eye and respiratory irritation as a potential
result of exposure to fumes when injection molding (iirc).
>
> plastic doesn't have to be in flames to produce dangerous fumes.
>
> you wouldn't sit in a running car in a closed one-car garage. you're
> also not supposed to hang around a gasoline pump for long periods.
> don't breathe fumes from your printer!
Thats a slightly extreme comparison.
>
> if you are pressed for options then I believe PLA has never been
> reported to give headaches. but I wouldn't trust this one tooooo much
> either.
>
PLA can be rated for use inside the human body... theres not a lot of
plastics you can say that about. Of the toxic things in most peoples
lives, I'd be more bothered about the carcinogens on your bbq'd meat
than the fumes from melting PLA.
Luke C
rebuild of the MK6/MK6+. When extruding new materials I do try and get
it into some sort of fume-hood, it seems i've grown fond of my brain
cells and non-cancerous body...
On Nov 20, 2:56 pm, Jordan Miller <jrdn...@gmail.com> wrote:
> a <5% temp difference is not going to have a meaningful effect on the
> reaction rate. the other problem to keep in mind i think is that some
> people mistake their inability to perceive the fumes as confirmation
> the fumes are not occurring. over time, much like body odor
> unfortunately, the brain will stop allowing you to smell or notice the
> fumes being produced. headaches and other physical effects are all the
> evidence that remains for ABS fumes...
>
> newcomers to 3d printers often mention the burning ABS smell first
> while old timers don't really notice it. plenty of personal experience
> here too.
>
> and if you're up at 260 C for polycarbonate you really gotta start
> watching out for rapid Teflon degradation IIRC, right? do you have a
> Teflon-containing hot-end? is there a canary nearby? :)
>
> jordan
>
Ward Elder
Ward M. Elder
(204) 791-7754
Eldersoft Ind.
42 Appleton St.
Winnipeg, MB
R2G1K5
Kurt Wendt
Fume Hood AND Venting it outside. I was curious to know if the Hood
could be designed to simply Filter the air/fumes. Maybe some kinda
system using a combination of charcoal and other fibers - like what is
done in a fish tank filter.
Anyone else have thoughts on this - or is more knowledgeable about what
is possible? As I too want to save my brain cells - and I also have a
10-year old son in the house with me - that I want to protect from
potentially Hazardous fumes! As it is - I shut the door of my office
space - when my Bot is building - and crack open a window. But, I would
like to do a little bit more - and also make it viable for me to Sit by
my bot when its operating - and not cause potential brain damage to myself!
-K-
Jetty
and some thumbscrews with I printed as I rarely need access to the
sides and top. (the top has a small hole drilled through it for the
filament to go through).
The front I left open as I need access. On the back, I printed a vey
large fan frame and a filter and screwed it to the back. The fan is
200mm, and I built a speed adjusting circuit for it and drive it off a
12V line. The filter pack I built has some 3M furnace filter material
on both sides and I put activated charcoal purchased from the local
aquarium shop inside. It's about 1 inch thick.
It's important to adjust the speed of the fan so it's just enough to
pull the fumes through the filter. Too fast and the fumes have less
contact time with the charcoal. To test this, watch the moisture off
the nozzle, or use an incense stick to test.
This doesn't completely solve the problem, but somewhat localizes it.
I'd say it's about 95% better. Instead of stinking out the house,
it's localized around the printer and is very minor. It also stops
the headaches and eye irritation.
My gut is that nothing will stop the smell entirely unless you
evacuate the air directly to the outside. This however should get rid
of most the fumes as activated carbon is pretty effective, but still
have a usable / practical machine.
Peter Harrington
Ward Elder
Thank you,
Ward M. Elder
ElderSoft
42 Appleton St.
Winnipeg, MB
R2G1K5
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jet
<http://www.tapplastics.com/uploads/pdf/MSDS%20ABS.pdf>
I am on the sensitive side of things -- a couple of years ago during
winter I spent 8 hours a day for three days printing out decorations in
my small studio. On day 2 or 3 I was coughing, had bloody mucous coming
out of my sinuses and headaches. Turned off the printer, opened the
windows, and felt much better 24 hours later.
--
J. Eric Townsend, IDSA
design <http://www.allartburns.org>
hacking <http://www.flatline.net>
fabrication <watch this space>
jet
The TAP Plastics MSDS for ABS calls out fumes, but others do not.
jet
dealing with the lasersaur fume issues and discovering I can't get
affordable studio space here in PGH that will let me build exhaust
hoods, charcoal might be my only option.
When landlords see exhaust requirements all sorts of warnings go off in
their heads. "WTF are you doing, and will OSHA or EPA come and knock on
my door?"
--jet
On 11/21/11 17:38, Ward Elder wrote:
> I am going to purchase an 8� duct fan then run 8� flexible dryer duct
> from the fan to an open window. This should suck/blow the bad gas out of
> the room. Only problem now is, at -10 to -30 Celsius I am liable to
> freeze to death with all that fresh air coming back into the house...
>
> Thank you,
>
> Ward M. Elder
>
> ElderSoft
>
> 42 Appleton St.
>
> Winnipeg, MB
>
> R2G1K5
>
> (204) 791-7754 (Cell)
>
> wa...@eldersoft.ca
>
> *From:*make...@googlegroups.com [mailto:make...@googlegroups.com] *On
> Behalf Of *Peter Harrington
> *Sent:* November-21-11 4:33 PM
> *To:* make...@googlegroups.com
> *Subject:* Re: [MakerBot] Toxic smell from ABS
>
> I built a "hillbilly" fume hood, and got a respirator which worked quite
> well.
>
> https://plus.google.com/u/0/108964966551932638943/posts/N5kmC93nxd6
>
> Then I reduced the temperature to 220C and that worked miracles. I only
> get that smell at the very beginning of a print now, for a second. I am
> going to take down the hillbilly fume hood and keep the fan I have been
> using and keep the window open when printing.
>
> Thanks to everyone for the suggestions.
>
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JohnA.
once - one of the popular filament producers in the US. They said we
shouldn't ever really be going over 400° Fahrenheit. That's 204°
Celsius in printer-speak.
JohnA.
On Nov 22, 1:35 pm, jet <allartbu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm leaning towards an activated charcoal filter for mine. After
> dealing with the lasersaur fume issues and discovering I can't get
> affordable studio space here in PGH that will let me build exhaust
> hoods, charcoal might be my only option.
>
> When landlords see exhaust requirements all sorts of warnings go off in
> their heads. "WTF are you doing, and will OSHA or EPA come and knock on
> my door?"
>
> --jet
>
> On 11/21/11 17:38, Ward Elder wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > I am going to purchase an 8 duct fan then run 8 flexible dryer duct
> > from the fan to an open window. This should suck/blow the bad gas out of
> > the room. Only problem now is, at -10 to -30 Celsius I am liable to
> > freeze to death with all that fresh air coming back into the house...
>
> > Thank you,
>
> > Ward M. Elder
>
> > ElderSoft
>
> > 42 Appleton St.
>
> > Winnipeg, MB
>
> > R2G1K5
>
> > (204) 791-7754 (Cell)
>
The Ruttmeister
PLA.
(sigh).
Whosawhatsis
On Tuesday, November 22, 2011 at 2:41 PM, The Ruttmeister wrote:
PLA people.PLA.(sigh).
MTO
I'm not bothered by the ABS smell, but my wife is, so I run my bot in
my kitchen, on the stove, with the vent hood on low, and its not a
problem.
The Ruttmeister
>On Nov 22, 3:07 pm, Whosawhatsis <whosawhat...@gmail.com
> wrote:
> PLA is great for some things, but is terrible for things like building extruders and other things that will be subjected to heat. Also, most of the people on this list are using >mk5/6/6+ extruders, which get too hot too far up the barrel to be a good design for PLA. I know they can be modified and/or very precisely calibrated to get good results with PLA, >but it's still a bad design for it.
>
I'm going to have to go ahead and disagree with you there... its a
total myth. All you need to do to use the right temp. If you run at
ABS temps then yes, you'll have troubles (but not every time). I've
run huge amounts of PLA through a stock Mk5 without any trouble (other
than the delrin plunger wearing away). Drop the temps to 180-190c and
it will do just fine. You should always add a cooling fan for better
quality prints though.
>. For most of the people on this list, ABS will give better results more easily than PLA because makerbots were designed for ABS with PLA as an afterthought.
>
Yes they were designed for ABS first, but they work just fine for PLA.
And the lack of horrible fumes is more than worth any issues with less
heat resistance for the printed parts. If you design your extruder
properly then PLA is just fine. Theres a ton of RepRaps out there that
don't have any issues with extruder mounts made from PLA.
ABS is a horrible, toxic, stinky, oil based anachronism.
Jordan Miller
thanks for linking the MSDS. We also need to remember that not all ABS or PLA is the same. Companies put in additives or have different molecular weights for their formulations, all of which affect the burning chemical reaction, and you don't even know when things might change from the same vendor. Even PLA we all print with is nowhere near medical/implant grade PLA. Medical grade PLA is perfectly clear and colorless and is 100% PLA.
Better to be extra extra cautious IMHO.
jordan
Chris Chiang
to the outside using a negative-pressure, activated-carbon-filtering
fume chamber.
It's a simple $35 build, and consumes only a few watts. (I have been
running this setup for several months now, first time putting it up on
thingiverse)
I have uploaded documentation here: http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:13851
I hope a simple setup such as this can help everyone!
(I may remove the entry after some time).
As a biomedical engineer, I believe that it is very difficult to reach
a conclusion on non-acute long-term health effects of anything without
a carefully-designed study (that eliminates circumstantial influences,
placebo effects, and correlations with other variables).
They're expensive, and I don't see one being done on ABS fumes anytime
soon. Material Safety Data Sheets typically only seem to draw
conclusions on the short-term, more acute effects of exposure. I don't
trust that the testing of such examined long-term exposure effects,
effects through respiratory exposure, and data of the material being
used as it is (extruded and hot, rather than static and cold).
So, until then, be safe!
-Chris
The Ruttmeister
>
> thanks for linking the MSDS. We also need to remember that not all ABS or PLA is the same. Companies put in additives or have different molecular weights for their formulations, all of which affect the burning chemical reaction, and you don't even know when things might change from the same vendor. Even PLA we all print with is nowhere near medical/implant grade PLA. Medical grade PLA is perfectly clear and colorless and is 100% PLA.
>
> Better to be extra extra cautious IMHO.
Worried about PLA? Then go find the MSDS... its on the Natureworks
website (I use PLA from Ultimachine, its Natureworks Inego 4043D) and
it tells you that the hazardous chemicals released by burning are CO
and CO2... and nothing else. It lists PLA dust as a potential irritant
(but then fine PLA granules are used in some hand soaps as an abrasive
so go figure), but that's about it.
If they change the formulation they are required to provide an updated
MSDS (or COSHH sheet in the UK). And 4043D pla is >98% pure PLA.
If you are going to be extra extra cautious then you certainly
shouldn't be using ABS!
Oh, and you probably don't want to ever take a hot-end that contains
PTFE over 200c... depending on the formulation PTFE can start to break
down as low as 250c and can give off Hydrogen fluoride which is a very
nasty gas. We have been using PTFE for ages though and no reports of
any issues... so maybe they are using a formulation that is stable to
>300c... who knows.
This is getting a little silly I think though.
Matthew Cozier
MSDS Water: http://www.hsegroup.com/hse/text/water.htm
"Skin Contact
- Acute overexposure: Prolonged but constant contact with liquid may
cause a mild dermatitis.
- Chronic overexposure: Mild to severe dermatitis."
people should be aware :p
Kurt Wendt
was looking for. However, I had 2 thoughts.
1 - If heat rises - and therefore the fumes - would one have to try and
close off all sides and suck the air out the back thru a filter - as
opposed to an overhead hood that could lightly suck up the air (which is
heated and already rising? Or, is it not hot enough - and doesn't rise
fast enough - and therefore the fumes Could go out the sides of the Bot?
2 - With the Filter and fan as you placed it - would it cause excessive
airflow over the HBP - and possibly cause cooling - and therefore
problems during the build process???
-K-
Jetty
> 1 - If heat rises - and therefore the fumes - would one have to try and
> close off all sides and suck the air out the back thru a filter - as
> opposed to an overhead hood that could lightly suck up the air (which is
> heated and already rising? Or, is it not hot enough - and doesn't rise
> fast enough - and therefore the fumes Could go out the sides of the Bot?
I've closed the sides and top with lexan from home depot. Completely
transparent and held on by 4 thumbscrews http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:13065
The advantage of this is that you can see everything, but you only get
air coming
in from the front, and leaving via the back. Easy access to the front
is important to me. Sides and top, not so much, but if I really need
it (probably only during oiling / maintenance), I can under the
thumbscrews and take the panel.
I was very careful to adjust the speed of the fan to the minimum
needed to pull the fumes through the filter. Easy to check with an
incense stick. You don't want huge airflow, but you want huge surface
area on the carbon, hence 200mm diameter of activated charcoal.
> 2 - With the Filter and fan as you placed it - would it cause excessive
> airflow over the HBP - and possibly cause cooling - and therefore
> problems during the build process???
I expected it to, but it doesn't, because fan speed is low. If I had
it at full speed, it would smell more and likely cause issues with the
HBP from the cooling.
I have the opposite problem actually, getting things off the build
surface :-)
It's a similar implementation to Chris's, I just wanted easy access,
good visibility, a larger surface area of carbon, and something that
doesn't make my ToM look less cool than it does native.
Chris's implementation is more thorough in that it's a total hood.
I would upload the design, but I wasn't too happy with the design it
as it requires a lot of gluing and the printing takes a good while
(that size of fan / filter casing needs to be printed in 9 parts that
need to be glued together into a whole and I'm not happy with the
assembly process and printing time). However there are other design
too that aren't perfect, so I think I'll upload it anyway. Somebody
else could refine the design to make it easier to assemble.
Michael Shiloh
couple of minutes...
Jordan Miller
toxic than anything in ABS printing. we'll never know though, because
NatureWorks will never tell us what is in their plastic. it's
proprietary.
but I have tested natureworks PLA chemically in the lab compared to
medical grade PLA and they behave differently.
protect yourself.
for the water MSDS, we should be careful not to confuse liability
(legally they do have to provide an MSDS for water if they sell it as
a chemical) with lack of experimental investigation (any plastic
melting and burning, no long term chronic effects studies have been
done, and certainly no one will fund it).
chloroform used to be an anesthesia until they finally realized it is
toxic. that was a long time ago. just a couple years ago, acetone was
the main component of nail polish remover and people would soak their
hands in it for tens of minutes every week. yep, they realized that
was toxic too.
they were all declared safe based on short term investigations and
reports. chronic effects build up over time. ask any medical doctor
why chronic conditions are treated differently from acute conditions.
organic solvents and organic fumes dissolve organic things. you are an
organic thing, and are not necessarily able to properly metabolize
these chemicals. protect yourself!
my $0.02.
jordan
MacGyver
http://i.imgur.com/M1MLF.jpg
It's working pretty well BTW.
On Nov 24, 7:10 pm, Jordan Miller <jrdn...@gmail.com> wrote:
> lol, yes I AM worried about PLA. that 2% you mention could be moretoxicthan anything in ABS printing. we'll never know though, because
> NatureWorks will never tell us what is in their plastic. it's
> proprietary.
>
> but I have tested natureworks PLA chemically in the lab compared to
> medical grade PLA and they behave differently.
>
> protect yourself.
>
> for the water MSDS, we should be careful not to confuse liability
> (legally they do have to provide an MSDS for water if they sell it as
> a chemical) with lack of experimental investigation (any plastic
> melting and burning, no long term chronic effects studies have been
> done, and certainly no one will fund it).
>
> chloroform used to be an anesthesia until they finally realized it istoxic. that was a long time ago. just a couple years ago, acetone was
> the main component of nail polish remover and people would soak their
> hands in it for tens of minutes every week. yep, they realized that
> wastoxictoo.
>
> they were all declared safe based on short term investigations and
> reports. chronic effects build up over time. ask any medical doctor
> why chronic conditions are treated differently from acute conditions.
>
> organic solvents and organic fumes dissolve organic things. you are an
> organic thing, and are not necessarily able to properly metabolize
> these chemicals. protect yourself!
>
> my $0.02.
>
> jordan
>
Jordan Miller
jordan
Jetty
> Hi Kurt
>
> > 1 - If heat rises - and therefore the fumes - would one have to try and
> > close off all sides and suck the air out the back thru a filter - as
> > opposed to an overhead hood that could lightly suck up the air (which is
> > heated and already rising? Or, is it not hot enough - and doesn't rise
> > fast enough - and therefore the fumes Could go out the sides of the Bot?
I've uploaded my solution to the problem: