First layer not sticking to raft

[Cymon]

I dont' see this one covered yet, I finally managed a good print but when I peeled it off the raft I noticed that the first couple of layers were crap. I kinda noticed it while it was printing but didn't stop it and it seemed to correct itself but it's like the plastic wasn't feeding enough or it wasn't sticking... I'm not really sure what was going on. Has anyone else seen this and how do you fix it.

[Dan Newman]

Please provide a picture or two. You can upload them to flickr, or wherever
and post the links.

Dan

[Andreas Böhler]

Did you print the calibration cube for dual extrusion? I had issues with this one similar to what you're describing, everything else printed just fine.

[andrewupandabout]

Made this video about increasing the platform temperature so things stick to the build platform. Hope it helps!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DX_CMTdjjo&feature=relmfu 

Andrew

[Andreas Böhler]

Hey Joe, just saw the pics on your blog - so much for my calibration cube theory ;)... it's hard to tell from those pictures, did you check your platform leveling? Maybe it isn't enough pressure on the material so the first few layers are a little bit loose because of that?

[Cymon]

I did indeed increase the platform temperature. That's how I managed to keep the raft on the platform at all. But getting the first actual print layer to stick to the raft is what's proving to be a problem.

More information and experimentation on the mrjoesmakerbot blog. I my try contacting makerbot support tomorrow.

[Andrew Mazzotta]

Ahhh...I'm interested in this fix. I will check on this too.

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[Shawn]

When I have problems with the first few layers sticking, I usually raise
my platform a little closer to the extruder. This results in the first
layer getting a little smooshed, but it tends to work well after that
and things stick better.

Where I have problems with this is when it is a large print that spans
more than half the platform. I'm waiting on the new (unwarped) platform
hoping this will resolve those problems.

HTH.

Shawn

On 12-05-06 08:28 PM, Cymon wrote:
> I did indeed increase the platform temperature. That's how I managed to
> keep the raft on the platform at all. But getting the first actual print
> layer to stick to the raft is what's proving to be a problem.
>

> More information and experimentation on the mrjoesmakerbot blog<http://joesmakerbot.blogspot.com/2012/05/prints-8-and-9-help.html>.

> I my try contacting makerbot support tomorrow.
>
> On Sunday, May 6, 2012 11:43:20 AM UTC-6, andrewupandabout wrote:
>>
>> Made this video about increasing the platform temperature so things stick
>> to the build platform. Hope it helps!
>>
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DX_CMTdjjo&feature=relmfu
>>
>> Andrew
>>

[MeBot]

On my replicator I raised the platform temperature to 115 on the Gcode and this helps make the first layer stick, but I still have problems with the first layer not looking like the following layers after the first one. Would love to see advice on this too.

[Erwin Ried]

For some reason they lowered the default platform temperature in newer versions of repg/skeinforge. Check skeinforge settings, there is some configurations for the first layer, probably shrinking it will help to get a similar one to the following layers

[Chris Crewdson]

I think I am having the same issue. The raft seems to print cleanly and sticks very well, but the first layer of the object itself on top of the raft always seems to be a bit funky. When I watch it, it seems like the head is too high and is dropping this first object layer down onto the raft, not laying it down right on it. 

Later layers look fine, but the first one on a raft is always loose and looks terrible. Printing without a raft looks great, but that's not always an option for larger prints.

Here are some pictures: 

https://plus.google.com/photos/102913912678563909266/albums/5739810993028064801

[Jwo Lee]

Try lowering the value of the Raft > Object First Layer > Operating Nozzle Lift over Layer Thickness (ratio)
A value of 1 should move the nozzle exactly one layer height after the last raft layer. You can go smaller than 1 to get a better "smoosh".

- Jwo Lee

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[Chris Crewdson]

I am using skeinforge 47 and this option does not exist.
Is it possible similar functionality exists in the Bottom plugin?
http://fabmetheus.crsndoo.com/wiki/index.php/Skeinforge_Bottom/
If it does, I am not sure how to set it up. It is off in all the profiles I use.

[Cymon]

Raft > Object First Layer > Operating Nozzle Lift over Layer Thickness (ratio) is currently set at 0.0

That's not a good ratio.

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[Cymon]

You're right, in Skienforge 47 I don't have that option. Help!

I've releveled the build platform, I've increased the temperature of the build platform to 125 C (and it keeps going higher for every print) and 225 for the extruder temp (doesn't feel like that's making any difference). Still the same problem.

Looking closely it seems to me that the fill on the first layer prefers attaching to the raft, not the outline. Maybe the key is that I set it up to go raftless. So how do you set up raftless printing in Skienforge 47 and RepG34? Because raftless printing isn't actually raftless, it's just fooling the skiener into making the raft the first layer, right? Which begs the question of why "use Raft/Support" is a checkable option in the generate GCode dialog. (In fact there's a lot about RepG that I feel needs to be reevaluated and rewritten.)

The quest continues...

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[Chris Crewdson]

When I say "raftless" I just mean unchecking that box ("use
Raft/Support") and the first layer of the object prints right on the
platform. This works really well for prints with small footprints
because curling and sticking too well are not issues. However, as soon
as something larger is printed it's a different story.

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[Dan Newman]

On 8 May 2012 , at 7:31 AM, Chris Crewdson wrote:

> When I say "raftless" I just mean unchecking that box ("use
> Raft/Support") and the first layer of the object prints right on the
> platform. This works really well for prints with small footprints
> because curling and sticking too well are not issues. However, as soon
> as something larger is printed it's a different story.

Except that's not how to print raftless. Well, you can print raftless that
way, but it's not ideal when using Print-o-Matic.

If you use Print-o-Matic, then you want to leave the "use raft" box checked.
Before then, in the Raft plugin for Skeinforge, set the Base Layers and Interface
Layers to zero. You will likely also need to adjust the values for "Object First
Layer" to get a the first layer printed to your satisfaction.

Dan

[Sean Tu]

On Tue, May 8, 2012 at 10:19 AM, Dan Newman <dan.n...@mtbaldy.us> wrote:

Except that's not how to print raftless.  Well, you can print raftless that
way, but it's not ideal when using Print-o-Matic.

If you use Print-o-Matic, then you want to leave the "use raft" box checked.
Before then, in the Raft plugin for Skeinforge, set the Base Layers and Interface
Layers to zero.  You will likely also need to adjust the values for "Object First
Layer" to get a the first layer printed to your satisfaction.

Dan

To print raftless with my ToM I've always just unchecked the use raft box and have not had any problems. I may have been doing this wrong all along but it works for me :-)

Different question though, looking at the picture of the raft for Joe's decoder rings, is that what a raft is supposed to look like now?

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-grEdYCptRJo/T6cx6nYthVI/AAAAAAAAANs/TuS3oQn1Clg/s320/IMG_20120506_200806.jpg

I go for what is in the instructions for ToM assmebly and don't have any problems anymore.

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5281/5249651444_07c8820696.jpg

Comparing the two pictures, it looks to me that he is not putting down enough plastic or the extruder/z-height is too high.

BTW, for myself the easiest way to get a good raft has been to first calibrate the thing and then try printing something large enough to cover most of the platform. As raft is being put down I adjust the platform bolts on the fly until I get fine tuning and leveling down. I don't have a Replicator but I would assume this would be even easier than on a ToM since you don't have to chase the platform around getting things leveled.

[Dan Newman]

On 8 May 2012 , at 8:47 AM, Sean Tu wrote:

> On Tue, May 8, 2012 at 10:19 AM, Dan Newman <dan.n...@mtbaldy.us> wrote:
>
>>
>> Except that's not how to print raftless. Well, you can print raftless that
>> way, but it's not ideal when using Print-o-Matic.
>>
>> If you use Print-o-Matic, then you want to leave the "use raft" box
>> checked.
>> Before then, in the Raft plugin for Skeinforge, set the Base Layers and
>> Interface
>> Layers to zero. You will likely also need to adjust the values for
>> "Object First
>> Layer" to get a the first layer printed to your satisfaction.
>>
>> Dan
>>
>>
> To print raftless with my ToM I've always just unchecked the use raft box
> and have not had any problems. I may have been doing this wrong all along
> but it works for me :-)
>
> Different question though, looking at the picture of the raft for Joe's
> decoder rings, is that what a raft is supposed to look like now?
>
> http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-grEdYCptRJo/T6cx6nYthVI/AAAAAAAAANs/TuS3oQn1Clg/s320/IMG_20120506_200806.jpg

That looks like an extruder which is missing steps or otherwise failing to output
plastic at times. Some of the plastic even looks burnt. I'd say the extruder needs
some attention or there's an issue with the plastic or both. Maybe the extruder
temp isn't right either. The burnt color suggests that the temperature may be too
high for that plastic but that would not necessarily also lead to the gaps all
over the raft of no plastic.

>
> I go for what is in the instructions for ToM assmebly and don't have any
> problems anymore.
>
> http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5281/5249651444_07c8820696.jpg
>
> Comparing the two pictures, it looks to me that he is not putting down
> enough plastic or the extruder/z-height is too high.

There's more serious problems than that as indicated by the gaps of varying
sizes with no plastic.

>
> BTW, for myself the easiest way to get a good raft has been to first
> calibrate the thing and then try printing something large enough to cover
> most of the platform. As raft is being put down I adjust the platform bolts
> on the fly until I get fine tuning and leveling down.

There's also various prints on Thingiverse aimed at evaluating how level the
platform is.

Dan

[PrettySmallThings]

One of the primary reasons people abandon rafts is the bottoms don't
look good. I think the photos you've shown look pretty typical. The
first layers of your object are printing loosely on an uneven surface
- those layers are never going to look awesome. You can adjust the
interface layers, but in order to get a more even surface, you will
most likely get a more "stuck" surface and your raft won't come off.
My two cents: If your raft is sticking to the platform, and your
print to the raft, you have mastered printing with a raft. I'm sure
there are small gains to be made with some fiddling, but it's never
going to look as good as a raftless print. Go raftless.

I much prefer adding mouse ears to the corners of large prints to help
with adhesion when necessary. If your object has a complicated
outline, extra shells can help make sure the details adhere well.
Turn your temp up to 110. Maybe 115 for something large, but 125
seems awfully high to me. Your platform temp will start to affect
print quality so keep your temperatures conservative - more heat isn't
always better. Replace your kapton, clean your kapton. Level your
platform, re-level your platform, and more importantly, bring your
nozzle closer to the build platform. The relationship of the nozzle to
the build platform is the most important factor here.

The stock skeinforge profiles for the Replicator aren't perfect, but
they are pretty good. If you can't get a good raft less print with
your stock replicator settings, you are most likely having a hardware
tuning problem, not a software/profile tuning problem. I wish someone
had told me early on to focus on hardware tuning - it's not worth
tuning the software end until your machine is physically calibrated.
I'm pretty sure I spent several hours with my TOM changing the nozzle
height by .05mm each time until I figured out what "good" looked like,
what "smooshed" looked like, what "loose" looked like. I haven't seen
(or looked) for a good bed calibration print for the replicator, but
the one I used on my TOM was a perimeter rectangle, with an x through
it, and a circle in the center. It only needs to be one layer slice
high. The printed extrusion should be even all the way around, the
circle should complete, and every millimeter of the extrusion should
be stuck down. If it isn't, check all above problem areas and try
again. When in doubt, decrease the distance between your nozzle and
platform.

Watch that first layer print. If you can see the plastic is loose on
the surface or if a corner lifts, stop, calibrate if necessary and
start over. Once a print fails, it will continue to do so, and most of
the time its not worth letting it complete.

[PrettySmallThings]

>Different question though, looking at the picture of the raft for Joe's
>decoder rings, is that what a raft is supposed to look like now?

Yes, the rafts look significantly different now. Less plastic, more
space, which means a raft that pulls off easier, but also somewhat
looser bottom layers.

>That looks like an extruder which is missing steps or otherwise failing to output
>plastic at times. Some of the plastic even looks burnt. I'd say the extruder needs
>some attention or there's an issue with the plastic or both. Maybe the extruder
>temp isn't right either. The burnt color suggests that the temperature may be too
>high for that plastic but that would not necessarily also lead to the gaps all
>over the raft of no plastic.

I'd bet the burnt plastic is from the extruder running into failed
prints, and then dragging through gnarled plastic, not from burnt
plastic coming out of the extruder. The interface layers are a touch
suspect, but I would thoroughly explore the Z height looking at missed
steps or the profile.

[Dan Newman]

> To print raftless with my ToM I've always just unchecked the use raft box
> and have not had any problems. I may have been doing this wrong all along
> but it works for me :-)
>
> Different question though, looking at the picture of the raft for Joe's
> decoder rings, is that what a raft is supposed to look like now?
>
> http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-grEdYCptRJo/T6cx6nYthVI/AAAAAAAAANs/TuS3oQn1Clg/s320/IMG_20120506_200806.jpg
>
> I go for what is in the instructions for ToM assmebly and don't have any
> problems anymore.
>
> http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5281/5249651444_07c8820696.jpg
>
> Comparing the two pictures, it looks to me that he is not putting down
> enough plastic or the extruder/z-height is too high.

Note also that in the default SF profiles shipped with RepG, the
interface layers do look a bit anemic. That's the raft layer right
above the base layers but before the model's first layer. It's
anemic to make it easy to separate the model from the raft -- works
well.

Perhaps that interface layer is what you're seeing and thinking suggestive
of needing more plastic?

It's also that interface layer which has lots of gaps. The interface layer
is printed faster than the base layer (typically). The base layer appears
okay. So the issue may well be that at higher feed rates, his extruder
cannot reliably feed filament.

Dan

[Dan Newman]

>
> I'd bet the burnt plastic is from the extruder running into failed
> prints, and then dragging through gnarled plastic, not from burnt
> plastic coming out of the extruder.

A video would be really helpful on that point. I had that thought
too that those could be spots where the nozzle dragged things around,
but I'm just not used to seeing that many isolated spots which are burnt.
But then, I generally stop the print right away when that happens and
clearly Joe didn't.

And it really looks like the raft's base layer stayed put but the model +
interface layer shifted from the raft's base layer.

So, there's an issue causing large gaps in the interface layer, and
there's something causing the model to get pushed off the base. The
former suggests extruder feed issues, the latter something causing
the nozzle to catch and drag. (So is this the second generation
build plate or is this the first generation one which would warp?
The warping could even increase as the plate heats up thus causing
dragging of the nozzle to occur several layers into the print and
thus defeat the print-levelling feature/aspect of a raft).

Dan

[MeBot]

Wow that is exactly what I'm in the process of doing, until I read your post I was experimenting with the same thing on my Replicator, so far I just changed the "Operating Nozzle Lift over Layer Thickness (ratio)" in the slicing profile that was default but that only did a slight increase on quality of the first layer, even though now I have adjusted my temp to between 110 and 115 depending on print using a raft, I want to focus on creating a better first layer. Thanks for your post.

[Cymon]

Accoring to Gavin Murphy from Makerbot Support unchecking the raft/support option is how it's supposed to work... which brings up another question. How are we supposed to print supports if we need them? Is there an option to print raftless but with support? Clearly I still have some experimentation to do.

[Shawn]

My basic tests so far indicate that you will not get supports if you do
not use rafts. So, supports require rafts. I'd be curious to hear if
this is not the case.

[Chris Crewdson]

To print raftless with support, a new profile needs to be made with
raft on but zero base and interface layers, and printed with
raft/support on.

[Greg Thorstad]

I believe you can do supports if you leave the raft enabled but set the base
layers and interface layers to 0. They may not be very strong because they
are just attaching to the platform.

Greg Thorstad, B. Comm.
Thorstad Computer/Thor3d.ca/Canadian Makerbot Distributor
Box 268
Outlook, SK
S0L 2N0
306 867-9596

[Dan Newman]

On 8 May 2012 , at 10:18 AM, Cymon wrote:

> Accoring to Gavin Murphy from Makerbot Support unchecking the raft/support
> option is how it's supposed to work...

Did he then explain how you get different treatment of the first layer when
you desire that? E.g., printing it a tad slower? No, he didn't because
you cannot when (1) you use Print-o-Matic, and (2) uncheck the raft box.
That's because if you uncheck the raft box, then P-o-M disables use of the
Raft plugin and it's the Raft plugin which allows for treating the first
layer of your model differently from the other layers. That in turn can
help when printing raftless.

However, if you really want decent control over your printing, you avoid
Print-o-Matic in the first place.

> which brings up another question.
> How are we supposed to print supports if we need them? Is there an option
> to print raftless but with support? Clearly I still have some
> experimentation to do.

See above. You either don't uncheck "use raft" or you don't use
Print-o-Matic. if you want support you want the Raft plugin and if you
uncheck "use raft" and use P-o-M, then you don't get the features of
the Raft plugin such as support (and control over the first layer printing).

Frankly, the sooner you ditch P-o-M the better off you
will be.

Dan

[Dan Newman]

On 8 May 2012 , at 10:33 AM, Chris Crewdson wrote:

> To print raftless with support, a new profile needs to be made with
> raft on but zero base and interface layers, and printed with
> raft/support on.

AND if you use Print-o-Matic, then you must not uncheck "print with raft".
Which was the point which led to this branch of the discussion.

Dan

[Andrew Plumb]

Measure your filament diameter or try dropping it by 0.02mm. I think the default diameter is 1.82mm; mine is currently set to 1.78mm.

If the filament is narrower than the default value then the slice gcode won't be laying down as much plastic as calculated, resulting in poor rafts and skinny first layers.

Andrew.

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[Dan Newman]

Looking at your most recent photos, I'm left wondering if perhaps one of your two
extruder nozzles is just a tad lower than the other? That's another way one might
get the catching that may be causing some of your problems. A way to check that is to
try slicing at a thicker layer height. For instance, if you are using 0.3 mm, try
0.35 or even 0.4 mm and see if some of your problems go away.

I still think there's some sort of issue with the extruder failing to output plastic
some of the time. You could try printing at a much slower feed rate and see if that
fixes that. If it does, that would hint at a slippage problem in the extruder's feed
mechanism or a need to adjust the stepper driver's current. If it doesn't, then the
issue may be a need to adjust the extruder temp. (Note that the thermocouples can
easily be off by four or five degrees C -- they aren't precision thermocouples.)

Dan

[Cymon]

On Tuesday, May 8, 2012 3:23:39 PM UTC-6, Andrew Plumb wrote:

Measure your filament diameter or try dropping it by 0.02mm. I think the default diameter is 1.82mm; mine is currently set to 1.78mm.

If the filament is narrower than the default value then the slice gcode won't be laying down as much plastic as calculated, resulting in poor rafts and skinny first layers.

Andrew.

 

I think this is it! As soon as changed the filament diameter as Andrew suggested the quality immediately improved.

Isn't the filament actually 1.75mm? Why isn't the value set at that? And, as I've said before, why isn't this value right in the first place?

 

On 2012-05-06, at 10:28 PM, Cymon wrote:

I did indeed increase the platform temperature. That's how I managed to keep the raft on the platform at all. But getting the first actual print layer to stick to the raft is what's proving to be a problem.

More information and experimentation on the mrjoesmakerbot blog. I my try contacting makerbot support tomorrow.

On Sunday, May 6, 2012 11:43:20 AM UTC-6, andrewupandabout wrote:

Made this video about increasing the platform temperature so things stick to the build platform. Hope it helps!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DX_CMTdjjo&feature=relmfu 

Andrew

On Sunday, May 6, 2012 12:53:17 PM UTC-4, Andreas Böhler wrote:

Did you print the calibration cube for dual extrusion? I had issues with this one similar to what you're describing, everything else printed just fine.

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[Andrew Plumb]

I think the ABS is closer to 1.8mm and the PLA is closer to 1.75mm, with the average somewhere in the middle.

One possibility is that because the ABS is hydrophilic, it expands as it absorbs water over time (i.e. the moment the bag is opened).  My older ABS reels are definitely closer to 1.8mm while my PLA has remained consistently closer to 1.75mm.

Andrew.

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[Dan Newman]

On 10 May 2012 , at 5:18 AM, Cymon wrote:

> On Tuesday, May 8, 2012 3:23:39 PM UTC-6, Andrew Plumb wrote:
>>
>> Measure your filament diameter or try dropping it by 0.02mm. I think the
>> default diameter is 1.82mm; mine is currently set to 1.78mm.
>>
>> If the filament is narrower than the default value then the slice gcode
>> won't be laying down as much plastic as calculated, resulting in poor rafts
>> and skinny first layers.
>>
>> Andrew.
>>
>
> I think this is it! As soon as changed the filament diameter as Andrew
> suggested the quality immediately improved.

If you have old and new logs from RepG overriding SF values, you can
see what changed. (Or you can just slice with the old diam. and then
with the new and see.) The likely culprit will be the width to thickness
ratios which Print-o-Matic computes and then uses to override the Fill
and Carve plugins.

Dan

[Cymon]

Either it's because my ABS is new or because out here in Utah, the middle of the great American desert, as Frozone said, "there IS no water in this air."

[Shawn]

I'm sure it's been said already, but check your platform
tramming/levelling. I installed the new HBP for my Replicator
yesterday, and it took forever to get things aligned right again. And
then I had a problem with prints sticking.

I grabbed Ednisley's Platform Level Test Pattern
(http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:15709), put it into blender and scaled
the x/y axis to better fit the larger platform. Then ran this off.
Many Many times, from both extruders. Each time I measured the
thickness on either side of the corners to get a feel for what direction
the corner had to go. When all four were within 0.03mm of the layer
height, suddenly things "just worked". Before that, stick was hit and
miss, or one nozzle would catch on the work of the other.

I found that while it's a pain in the butt to go through so many prints
for such minor adjustments, the results are MORE than worth the effort.
Now I can shift focus to some of the other minor issues and forget
about non-stick for now.

>>> More information and experimentation on the mrjoesmakerbot blog<http://joesmakerbot.blogspot.com/2012/05/prints-8-and-9-help.html>.

>>> I my try contacting makerbot support tomorrow.
>>>
>>> On Sunday, May 6, 2012 11:43:20 AM UTC-6, andrewupandabout wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Made this video about increasing the platform temperature so things
>>>> stick to the build platform. Hope it helps!
>>>>
>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DX_CMTdjjo&feature=relmfu
>>>>
>>>> Andrew
>>>>
>>>> On Sunday, May 6, 2012 12:53:17 PM UTC-4, Andreas B�hler wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Did you print the calibration cube for dual extrusion? I had issues
>>>>> with this one similar to what you're describing, everything else printed
>>>>> just fine.
>>>>
>>>>
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[MacGyver]

I live in Salt Lake City, Utah but haven't had any real problems with
getting the plastic to stick but with that said I'm running a Thing-O-
Matic with HBP with kapton tape. I've noticed if I have the Z offset
too close to the platform I'll get smooshed first layers and the model
will be very difficult to remove from the platform. Even though I
have the Z offset set sometimes I have to go back in and tweak it one
way or the other.

The dry weather here makes it nice so you don't have to store your
filament in sealed containers when you aren't using it. Either that
or I used mine so fast I don't notice a difference.