Loxone for self-buiild?

[Daniel Feist]

Hi,

We're about to start on a self-build passive house and want to automate heating and blinds for sure, but I am also interested in lighting control as well as recording and storing building metrics (temps, humidity, etc.)

I'm new to this list and realize that some things I'm about to ask may have been covered previously, but I've also seen that a few things are changing at Loxone recently both in terms of their new mini-server gen2 as well as their approach to self-builders who are not partners.

This is a Loxone list, so probably a silly question to ask but...  is Loxone still a good idea for a self-builder assuming I find a friendly partner that can resell the products without charging a large markup for design or installation?

Assuming the use of Loxone what do people recommend regarding the following:

1) Use primarily Loxone vs. Loxone + KNX?

2) If using primarily Loxone, is the tree interface the best approach or are others doing something else to avoid being tied to Loxone?

2) What is the best alternative to using Loxone for lighting given both Loxone light fittings and dimmers look expensive? i.e, DMX vs DALI vs. KNX

Any thoughts greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Daniel

[Rob_in]

On Monday, 24 February 2020 17:50:45 UTC+1, Daniel Feist wrote:

1) Use primarily Loxone vs. Loxone + KNX?

Defo Loxone + KNX. We have KNX switches and a KNX interface to our heat pump. KNX is a super mature standard supported by many manufacturers. I got by programming with just the free 'demo' KNX license so it costs no more and you have masses more choice when it comes to light switches, etc.

As discussed on other threads regarding the gen 2 MS... if you treat Loxone as a KNX 'logic module' it's still sort of good value. I am not convinced of the value in a gen2 + KNX extension. Gen1 was heaps better value (we have this). Gen2 + 3rd party KNX IP gateway might be better value and give more options in the future (ie. you can add a different 'logic module' if/when you find Loxone doesn't fit your needs).

 

2) If using primarily Loxone, is the tree interface the best approach or are others doing something else to avoid being tied to Loxone?

I would never, ever, ever touch Loxone tree. Locked in to a single manufacturer. They disappear and you are stuffed.

 

2) What is the best alternative to using Loxone for lighting given both Loxone light fittings and dimmers look expensive? i.e, DMX vs DALI vs. KNX

TBH, Loxone plus a DMX module with DMX dimmers is working very well for us. At least all your dimmers will be DMX and therefore able to work with other stuff if you want to in the future.

HTH,

Robin

[Rob_in]

On Monday, 24 February 2020 17:50:45 UTC+1, Daniel Feist wrote:

...I am also interested in ... recording and storing building metrics (temps, humidity, etc.)

You're going to want to check this thread out then... ;) 

https://groups.google.com/d/topic/loxone-english/q8_9Uh-Qvak/discussion

FWIW, we have a 1-wire bus (wired on cat7) for temp/humidity. I then added some DIY air quality sensors (MQ135 sensor with an Arduino Pro Mini reading them and acting as a 1-Wire slave). If I was doing this again think I may consider not bothering with 1-Wire and putting these on Modbus as it's more flexible and would be 1 less extension to worry about. We have a Modbus extension anyhow for comms with a HRV system & relays.

Or something integrated into KNX light switches that sound very nice are those cuik-sq4, discussed here:

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/loxone-english/VsBUYwydF2Y/-qTqsEOdCQAJ

Robin

[Duncan]

lots of questions here but:

loxone is still a great system, particularly if you are likely to reprogram it yourself and learn how the config works rather than relying fully on a partner

you wont be able to buy stuff directly from loxone so its either a partner for a package or buy parts from a partner/reseller and configure it yourself.

for a self-build, the cost of a heating control system with room stats will buy you a good loxone system so the only significant other expense of using loxone for the whole house will be light dimmers:

loxone 240v dimmers are expensive per channel - around £100

knx 240v dimmers can be had for around £50 at the minimum although you can pay a lot more

dmx 240v dimmers are not readily available and the chinese ones have proved to be very unreliable

dmx low voltage dimmers are cheap and reliable, although the cost/difficulty sourcing of 24v lights limits choice compared to dimmable 220/240v lamps/bulbs and you have to add in the cost of heavy duty 24v power supplies and probably heavier duty wiring

tree is too proprietry for my liking as well

i would suggest a combination of retractive mechanical switches and KNX where you want something more fancy/functional for inputs eg ones with build in temperature sensors, humidity sensors, lcd displays etc, and knx 240v dimmers for most dimmable lamps  and use low voltage dmx dimmers for coloured stuff/led strips/mini downlights/uplights etc

i say use dimmable 240v stuff because the range and quality of conventional 240v lights/leds improves year on year, for a bargain price, which you wont get if you buy into 24v downlights - for example i recently threw away a load of 3yr old dimmable gu10 leds and replaced with ones which are brighter, have a better cri, better red rendering and wider dimming range for around £7 each

avoid wireless if at all possible and pay attention at the planning stage for things that tend to get ignored but may be more difficult to retrofit later eg blinds/curtains, garden lighting

[Techdoctor]

I have been involved in Home Automation and bespoke LED lighting design for probably over 15 years plus. Also add a few years of industrial automation too. 

My answers are as follows:

1) Use primarily Loxone vs. Loxone + KNX? I think it depends on what it is you want to do. I have gone all Loxone in my own install. 

2) If using primarily Loxone, is the tree interface the best approach or are others doing something else to avoid being tied to Loxone?  Tree works very well and is easy to implement. I am using CAT 6 cable one for the tree  and another for the power.

2) What is the best alternative to using Loxone for lighting given both Loxone light fittings and dimmers look expensive? i.e, DMX vs DALI vs. KNX . 

This  again depends on what you want to do.  If you go for a single 20 euro dimmable light fitting  you will also need at least a Nano Air dimmer as well. So the cheap light actually costs a lot more than a corresponding Loxone RGB spot.  I am using 3 Loxone tree RGB spots in my bathroom and one of their large RGB Air ceiling lights in the lounge. Very happy with the results.

On Monday, 24 February 2020 17:50:45 UTC+1, Daniel Feist wrote:

[Nick Everard]

Hi Daniel,

I would still recommend Loxone, it’s frustrating the partner only route they have taken but I feel it’s still the best.

I have pretty much done a self build without really any prior knowledge of home automation, I choose Loxone because I could find out more information on ‘how it works’ and ‘how to’ to any other system. It has turned from a project into a hobby.

I control heating, lighting, blinds, access, security, partial music. lighting and access are the most important to me.

I have followed the three method for switches and motion sensors it allows for far easier cabling although I see the flexibility of star wiring.

1) Use primarily Loxone vs. Loxone + KNX?

Depends on your experience as my knowledge was limited at the start I stayed with Loxone dimmers and relays they just work!

2) If using primarily Loxone, is the tree interface the best approach or are others doing something else to avoid being tied to Loxone?

As noted above

2) What is the best alternative to using Loxone for lighting given both Loxone light fittings and dimmers look expensive? i.e, DMX vs DALI vs. KNX

I personally believe for smaller rooms find a good quality 24vdc spot light fitting (the Loxone ones are ok I think there are better ones out there) a reality cheap Loxone RGBW allows you control 4x small rooms when you use each channel, larger rooms and bathrooms stick with 240v spots something like the JCC v50 they work well with Loxone mains dimmers.

Other recommendations

You can save money using web relays they work well using Loxone udp commands, but react a little slow however for controlling underfloor heating valves which are not speed critical they are reliable.

https://www.kmtronic.com/UDP-LAN-Ethernet-IP-Eight-channels-Relay-Controller.html

I paid chap in the early days circa £300 to write my base programme from using my wiring diagram / drawings best £300 I spent.

Draw every room showing wiring, lights, switches etc on autocad if you can.

Wire tree in bus methodology from panel to each switch and then back to the panel helps if you have one bad connections all still work ok.

If you are building your own panel do not under estimate the size of the incoming trunking as there are more cables than you might think, I have lots of panel advise, I’m pleased with mine but it’s taken some work I’ll post a pic.

I am a Sonos fan but I should have considered more seriously the Loxone music server as it would be really helpful for things like spoken commands “someone is at the door” etc I am using a raspberry pi but can’t get it reliable but I expect my knowledge is the issue.

Think out service routes to the panel after the build is complete to get the missed cable in I installed some 2” drain pipe from the loft to the panel, also run extra cables to incoming supply zones ie electric meter, water and as ideas will come after when living in the house.

[Nick Everard]

Just need to sort the overflowing top cable trunking

[Rob]

Interesting idea with the illuminated panel. Where did you source that?

[Nick Everard]

Hi Rob

It is just a 800x1200 steel enclosure with a glazed door, door painted black and two strips of led on the inside.

Regards,
Nick Everard

On 2 Mar 2020, at 23:20, Rob <robertl...@gmail.com> wrote:



Interesting idea with the illuminated panel. Where did you source that?

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[Simon Still]

On Monday, 2 March 2020 21:48:01 UTC, Nick Everard wrote:

2) What is the best alternative to using Loxone for lighting given both Loxone light fittings and dimmers look expensive? i.e, DMX vs DALI vs. KNX
I personally believe for smaller rooms find a good quality 24vdc spot light fitting (the Loxone ones are ok I think there are better ones out there) a reality cheap Loxone RGBW allows you control 4x small rooms when you use each channel, larger rooms and bathrooms stick with 240v spots something like the JCC v50 they work well with Loxone mains dimmers.

Other recommendations

You can save money using web relays they work well using Loxone udp commands, but react a little slow however for controlling underfloor heating valves which are not speed critical they are reliable.

The one thing I would absolutely avoid are the cheap Chinese DMX 240v dimmers.  Luckily I've only used one in my install but they're a) unreliable b) flicker and c) seem to kill shorter bulb life massively.  

Most of my lighting is constant current LED with drivers dimmers by analogue 1-10v Loxone outputs.  The company that made the lights has gone out of business but they should have a 20 year life (I've had no failures or issues after 4+ years while nearly all my 240v Gu10s have already been replaced once) 

If you're using any DMX then DMX relays are cheap and reliable (I'll probably replace my dimmer with relays and just have those circuits non-dimming).  Do you really need all light circuits to dim?  I'd suggest not.  We have mood lighting with scenes and dim levels in kitchen and living room.  All other circuits are now used either on or off.  

[Rob_in]

On Tuesday, 3 March 2020 12:47:45 UTC+1, Simon Still wrote:

On Monday, 2 March 2020 21:48:01 UTC, Nick Everard wrote:

You can save money using web relays they work well using Loxone udp commands, but react a little slow however for controlling underfloor heating valves which are not speed critical they are reliable.

There's actually a whole thread here on alternatives for relay outputs:

https://groups.google.com/d/topic/loxone-english/VAqI0Sk72_0/discussion

 

The one thing I would absolutely avoid are the cheap Chinese DMX 240v dimmers.  Luckily I've only used one in my install but they're a) unreliable b) flicker and c) seem to kill shorter bulb life massively.  

Good advice!

 

Most of my lighting is constant current LED with drivers dimmers by analogue 1-10v Loxone outputs.  The company that made the lights has gone out of business but they should have a 20 year life (I've had no failures or issues after 4+ years while nearly all my 240v Gu10s have already been replaced once) 

I'm slightly confused as why you'd go 1-10v dimming rather than DMX. Surely Loxone 1-10v outputs are waaaay expensive to achieve in large numbers? 

FWIW, we have 24v Constaled spots from Voltus in Germany. Very nice light and work perfectly with EldoLED DMX dimmers. Everything in the house is 24v dimmable and was done that way so it was low voltage and I could install myself (our builder insisted everything 240v was done by a professional so the dimming was basically better than free as hardware costs far outweighed savings of having to pay someone to do the lighting install).

 

If you're using any DMX then DMX relays are cheap and reliable (I'll probably replace my dimmer with relays and just have those circuits non-dimming).  Do you really need all light circuits to dim?  I'd suggest not.  We have mood lighting with scenes and dim levels in kitchen and living room.  All other circuits are now used either on or off.  

I have put some 240v GU10 spots (Vison-EL LED bulbs) under the eaves of our garage for the parking area. They are non-dimmable because they are driven from my garage box of DIY goodies (aka. a Raspberry Pi with relays). Yes, I would never do this in the house, but the garage is for playing with ;) Anyhow, they create a pretty pleasing light, and at only 1/5th of the cost of the lighting inside the house the price is certainly right.

That said, I absolutely love fully dimmable lighting in the house so would certainly recommend going that route.

Robin

[Simon Still]

On Wednesday, 4 March 2020 07:29:06 UTC, Rob_in wrote:

 

Most of my lighting is constant current LED with drivers dimmers by analogue 1-10v Loxone outputs.  The company that made the lights has gone out of business but they should have a 20 year life (I've had no failures or issues after 4+ years while nearly all my 240v Gu10s have already been replaced once) 

I'm slightly confused as why you'd go 1-10v dimming rather than DMX. Surely Loxone 1-10v outputs are waaaay expensive to achieve in large numbers? 

At the time I was speccing the house (2014) I couldn't find suitable constant current DMX dimmers (only constant voltage, which tends to be used for LED strip).

I had enough analogue outputs for all the light circuits I needed with the Miniserver and extensions I needed for everything else. 

Lastly, 1-10v is very easy to troubleshoot and text, whereas DMX is not...