Thief in the workshop

[camo....@gmail.com]

Hi everybody,

Yesterday night my laptop has been stolen in the workshop while I was talking with somebody. We think we saw the thief and even got his face on one of the CCTV camera. It is someone that has been here before. It is not a member, and we think he follows member through the main door when they are coming in or going out.

The police might come to see the footage today (in the afternoon, I think) so don't freak out if you see policemen around the Hackspace.

Cheers,

Camille

[Matt Peperell]

Is it worthwhile having a photo list of personae non gratae by each of the doors? I'm hoping that won't be inviting too much nuclear fall-out.

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Regards,

Matt Peperell
Tel: +44 (0) 7951 092 890
Skype: mattpep

[Morris]

How sickening, I'm sorry to hear you had your laptop stolen. I actually feel sick for you. Horrible indeed.

>
++++++++++[>+>+++>++
+++++>++++++++++<<<<
-]>>>+++++++.>++++++
+++++.+++..---------
.++++++++++.<<+++.<.

[Tom Sands]

I'm with you on this. Whilst I don't want to stir up a great big pot of paranoia it is very evident that this person should not be welcome, especially not on any day that isn't a Tuesday.

Tonight I'll print a reminder by the door that non-members arriving not on open days should not be let in without prior appointment, and if they are let in someone must be responsible for them.

If I see someone I don't know or who I don't recognise as a member in the space I will politely ask them who they are.

[Matt Peperell]

That's a good idea. I've been thinking about door policy for a while anyway. 

Whilst security is one aspect (highlighted by this thread), the other aspect in my mind is that of hospitality. Both on Tuesdays and not, I see people who open the door to people and then walk away, frequently without uttering a word. This, without checking whether the person is a member, guest, visitor, whether they want a tour etc.  My concern is not that the door-opening person doesn't give a tour or even a brief introduction (I realise that not all people want to do this - whether through being busy, social anxiety, disinclination or any other reason) - but that they don't seek out someone who will. The guest is just standing there looking bewildered.  I've seen this myself on multiple occasions and had to step in. 

A rule such as "don't open the door unless a) the person at the door is a member, b) you are willing to welcome them, c) are willing to find someone who will" is perhaps draconian, but there'll be a lesser version which will help to maintain security and ensure that guests are welcomed. I'd welcome input on this. Think back to when you first came to the space. Were you welcomed in (whether or not a full blown tour) or did you have to ask someone?

[William Beaufoy]

+1 for photo list. If one guy knows he can steal stuff from here it can only get worse unless we take action.

[Martin (Crypt)]

I think thats fair.  I do remember about a year ago a discussion on this issue that got pretty heated.  I think the basic rule you suggested is good though, that it should be up to individual members to decide if they want to open the door and if they do, then they are responsible for welcoming them and giving them a tour if they want it.  If people aren't willing to do that then the person should just be left outside.  There are several things that can be done to improve security though.  Buzzers on the doors, so people are warned when they are open, and sufficiently annoyed by the constant tone to get up and shut the door.  Making sure the doors close properly by themselves.  At risk of starting a bikeshed here, it might be a good idea to come up with some ideas to improve general security

[Simon Howes]

I have a feeling even if he doesn't return we can be expecting his scumbag mates to be emboldened by his adventure and pitching up at the door next...

Be vigilant

[Charles Yarnold]

Just before the lynch mob starts to take up pitch forks, it's worth pointing out that though we currently have a possible suspect, the only evidence is circumstantial. No one saw the theft itself (human or camera) so currently we don't know for sure either way it was them.

[Tim Reynolds]

While i totally agree with people being responsible for whoever they let
in, we have no way of policing that and no way of enforcing it. People
that disagree with the policy can let anyone in at any time and leave
them to their own devices. The previous discussion on entry policies
made it very clear that a lot of people would do just that. I can only
hope that the next thing stolen is theirs, and it is expensive and
irreplaceable.

I think door closers, more cameras and just general vigilance from the
non-moron segment of the membership are the only things we can really
do.

>> [1].
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>>
>> Matt Peperell
>> Tel: +44 (0) 7951 092 890 [2]

>> Skype: mattpep
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[Monty]

I've added this to the http://wiki.london.hackspace.org.uk/view/Lost_and_found#Recently with the idea being it should help track how bad of a problem we have with things going missing.

[Fuxy]

We're not a small group anymore. I know as hackers we value our privacy but we either

1. Need to cover the entire space with cameras

OR

2. Make say a raspberry pi take a photo every time the door is open / people detected in front of it

That would actually get us a photo of the person at least so we have something to post on the wall.

For the ones concerned with privacy we could just keep it for say max 1 week and then automatically delete it. Doesn't even need to be connected to the network though you would kinda like to keep the footage in a remote location in case the thief tries to steel that as well.

Just an idea don't want to start a flame war.

[Jonty Wareing]

Thanks Monty, this is a great initiative.

Please make sure you list things on this page if you have something go
missing.

--jonty

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[Jonty Wareing]

We have been aware for some time that we need to have working cameras
covering the car park and entrances. We'll be getting this sorted in
the very near future.

--jonty


----- Original Message -----
> From: "Fuxy" <ciu...@gmail.com>
> To: london-h...@googlegroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, 17 October, 2013 1:11:21 PM
> Subject: [london-hack-space] Re: Thief in the workshop

[Tim Reynolds]

While taking a picture each time the door is opened is maybe too far, I
think decent CCTV coverage of all entry/exit points is a great start.

We've grown to the point where we can no longer cater to the paranoid
fantasies of some of the membership. No one gives a shit about you, no
one wants to steal your secrets. You are no one and nothing. Get over
the cameras.

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[Tom Hodder]

On 17 October 2013 13:16, Tim Reynolds <t...@christwithfries.net> wrote:

While taking a picture each time the door is opened is maybe too far, I think decent CCTV coverage of all entry/exit points is a great start.

+1

If you have low physical security, then you must have high retrospective accountability.

 

[Russ Garrett]

I think we should avoid kneejerk reactions. The fact is that the
presence of CCTV doesn't really act as a deterrent (as this case
proves), and few stolen items actually get returned on the basis of
CCTV.

I think we could do with a few more cameras in the space, but let's
not go crazy about it.

Russ

On 17 October 2013 13:16, Tim Reynolds <t...@christwithfries.net> wrote:
>

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[Benjamin Blundell]

It was a point I raised before the move; the security of our unit is not something I think our community as a whole, has come to terms with. Our location, in comparison to Cremer is less secure, with more foot traffic, in an area of London not exactly crime free. Our increased visibility makes us more of a target.

Cameras have been an issue for a long time. While I would not be as forthright as Tim, the key issue with cameras is members retain the rights, the ownership of that system, unlike the cameras we hear all about in the news. Its a subtle yet important difference, especially to us as hackers. Also, unlike the CCTV issue (and similar) the hackspace community has had this discussion.

We've begun to lock the doors when we go out (a previous thread) and that should continue. Outside of tuesday nights, I'd urge everyone not to give out any information on, say, the padlock code (I've been asked this a few times) or leave the backdoor open.

I've begun to question anybody who wants to get in through the front door if I'm the one to answer it. I think we all must adopt a firmer yet polite "you are not a member, I dont know you, I cannot let you in" attitude.

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[chrisbob12]

Commiserations to Camille, having your laptop stolen is a rotten experience. Hope you get some success.

A question for members: how secure do we expect the Hackspace to be? As secure as a pub, work, home? From my POV I hardly know anybody, so I'd have no chance of spotting non members.

[Ian Henderson]

This may also explain some of the other stuff that's gone missing in the last few weeks, DVD screen, speakers etc.

I'm in favour of increased security and reasonable monitoring

Ian

[Tom Hodder]

On 17 October 2013 13:42, Russ Garrett <ru...@garrett.co.uk> wrote:

The fact is that the presence of CCTV doesn't really act as a deterrent

I heard that having a full size cut-out of a police officer in a visible place, acts a a deterrent to opportunistic thefts.

Hence, it's only logical, that the following invention might well do the trick.... (full size, in the middle of the general area...)

scroll down...

 

[Monty]

DVD screen?

[Mark Steward]

HDMI screen.

--

[Nick Johnson]

On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 1:43 PM, Benjamin Blundell <onid...@gmail.com> wrote:

It was a point I raised before the move; the security of our unit is not something I think our community as a whole, has come to terms with. Our location, in comparison to Cremer is less secure, with more foot traffic, in an area of London not exactly crime free. Our increased visibility makes us more of a target.

Cameras have been an issue for a long time. While I would not be as forthright as Tim, the key issue with cameras is members retain the rights, the ownership of that system, unlike the cameras we hear all about in the news. Its a subtle yet important difference, especially to us as hackers. Also, unlike the CCTV issue (and similar) the hackspace community has had this discussion.

We've begun to lock the doors when we go out (a previous thread) and that should continue. Outside of tuesday nights, I'd urge everyone not to give out any information on, say, the padlock code (I've been asked this a few times) or leave the backdoor open.

I've begun to question anybody who wants to get in through the front door if I'm the one to answer it. I think we all must adopt a firmer yet polite "you are not a member, I dont know you, I cannot let you in" attitude.

What do you do if someone says "I'm a member but (I left my card behind / my card is broken / my card was stolen)"?

-Nick

[Tim Reynolds]

Take them to Tesla and show them how to de-register the old card, or
just refuse them entry. It's hard, but eh.

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[tgreer]

As Tim says. And if you don't feel comfortable doing that, don't answer the door. Simple as really. You wouldn't let some random stranger into your home without checking if they should be there... why would you do the same at the hackspace?

[Nick Johnson]

On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 3:00 PM, tgreer <ukt...@gmail.com> wrote:

As Tim says. And if you don't feel comfortable doing that, don't answer the door. Simple as really. You wouldn't let some random stranger into your home without checking if they should be there... why would you do the same at the hackspace?

It was an honest question - there's no obvious way to tell if someone is a member or not when they knock.

And the obligatory your-metaphor-is-flawed response: I know everyone who's allowed access to my home on sight. I can't say the same about the hackspace.

-Nick

For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

[tom]

>What do you do if someone says "I'm a member but (I left my card behind / my card is broken / my card was stolen)"?

something like "Prove it" would work. Also given that it generally requires an oyster card to get to the space as well as getting in I'd say "i left my card behind" is unlikely

[Monty]

If you wanted to you could ask for their name and check it against the member's list, even ask for ID if you doubt them telling the truth.

[Matt Peperell]

> It was an honest question - there's no obvious way to tell if someone is a member or not when they knock.

This is true. But the majority of members will have oyster cards. The forgetting should happen sufficiently rarely that those members who are asked will hopefully appreciate the benefit of improved security.

Do we have many members who don't have oyster cards? (at all, I mean, rather than just not having one on our member database)

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Regards,

Matt Peperell
Tel: +44 (0) 7951 092 890

Skype: mattpep

[chrisbob12]

Good question. How hard would it be to compare the number of oyster cards on the door system, with the number of current members? Do the cards of ex-members get removed?

[Russ Garrett]

On 17 October 2013 15:19, chrisbob12 <chris...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Good question. How hard would it be to compare the number of oyster cards on the door system, with the number of current members? Do the cards of ex-members get removed?

It's fully automatic. Only paying members' cards are on the system.

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Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk

[Jonty Wareing]

We can do this fairly easily. Ex-members don't get removed, but the card
becomes deactivated.

--jonty


----- Original Message -----
> From: "chrisbob12" <chris...@yahoo.com>
> To: london-h...@googlegroups.com

[Tom Hodder]

On 17 October 2013 14:53, Nick Johnson <arac...@notdot.net> wrote:

I've begun to question anybody who wants to get in through the front door if I'm the one to answer it. I think we all must adopt a firmer yet polite "you are not a member, I dont know you, I cannot let you in" attitude.

What do you do if someone says "I'm a member but (I left my card behind / my card is broken / my card was stolen)"?

It would be easier to follow the rules during these awkward situations if there was a poster by the door saying something along the lines of:

"Due to a recent theft,

the consensus of the group

was to ask for ID upon entry.

Please don't be offended 

to be asked to scan-in, 

or give your name so it 

can be checked against 

the members list"

 

[chrisbob12]

Excellent. So it should be easy to get an accurate picture of how many members have registered oyster cards.

If one were to consider a door policy, it probably boils down to swipe in, or something more fiddly if you don't have an oyster card. Would it be onerous to require all members to have an oyster card and register it?

[Paul Dart]

Is this not missing the point somewhat?

My mate Mr Theivey McRobber has seen some lovely expensive kit on the open day (when he got a lovely tour and all the expensive good stuff was pointed out to him), and only has to pay £5, relatively anonymously to become a member and can have free reign for a month or until he gets stopped. Sweet.

I think the solution is that people just keep an eye on their personal property and challenge anyone seen to be leaving with anything obviously expensive. Easy said than done, but I don't think just stopping non-members will necessarily solve the problem.

Another solution might be to start kensington locking things and having some available to use around the space. Obviously it doesn't stop people, but it discourages oppertunistic thieves, and also means its more obvious if someone is trying to remove something.

Cheers,

Paul

On 17 October 2013 15:38, chrisbob12 <chris...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Excellent. So it should be easy to get an accurate picture of how many members have registered oyster cards.

If one were to consider a door policy, it probably boils down to swipe in, or something more fiddly if you don't have an oyster card. Would it be onerous to require all members to have an oyster card and register it?

[chrisbob12]

Not missing the point. It would be a perverse crim who gave his bank account details to become a member, thus laying a trail to follow post crime.

[Jonty Wareing]

You can pay in cash in a bank to the correct reference number, you don't
need to set up a standing order. A few members do this.

--jonty


----- Original Message -----
> From: "chrisbob12" <chris...@yahoo.com>
> To: london-h...@googlegroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, 17 October, 2013 3:56:17 PM
> Subject: Re: [london-hack-space] Re: Thief in the workshop

[Nigel Worsley]

> It would be a perverse crim who gave his bank account details to become a
> member, thus laying a trail to follow post crime.

Unless he is also into identity theft...

Nigle

[chrisbob12]

Fair enough, I didn't know that.

[Colin Cooper]

Do we have many members who don't have oyster cards? (at all, I mean, rather than just not having one on our member database)

Yes.

[Peter "Sci" Turpin]

Good, but a warning alone does not suffice. It would be relying on
several stages we've been flawed at before. Namely confrontation in the
first place (in asking for ID), following up on the request (and
checking that ID against the members list) and ensuring it's followed
through on (confronting again if it doesn't match).

Plus some members have in the past said they use pseudonyms for
security, so ID won't match the members list.

May I suggest that we get a guest-book?
IE; If you're let in without your access-card, you must sign the
guest-book with an explanation for not having your card and provide
photo ID to match the guest-book name provided, as well as the name of
the person who authorised your entry. And make it mandatory so there's
no room for people to sweet-talk or argue their way into not having to
do so.

We could probably also benefit from the doorbell triggering image
retention on the CCTV, so we have an automatic event-tagged visual
record of who's requesting entry without an access card. It would also
provide material to cross-reference with the entries in the guest-book
to ensure it's being used and ID security holes (those who let people in
without checking them).

On 17/10/2013 15:25, Tom Hodder wrote:
> On 17 October 2013 14:53, Nick Johnson <arac...@notdot.net

[Clare Greenhalgh]

The guest book would obviously need to be electronic and remotely stored so it can't go walkies... but what an excellent idea!

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[Tim Reynolds]

A guest book is less than useless. Challenging people and being vigilant is the only solution and that is reliant on people actually doing it rather than taking the path of least resistance and just letting anyone in who knocks.

[Clare Greenhalgh]

Why do you say the guest book would be worse than useless.... I don't think we mean a nice pretty one you have at the door of fancy buildings....!

[Tim Reynolds]

Members are reluctant to even ask people ringing the doorbell if they are members. If anyone thinks they're going to march people to a book, ask them to produce ID and sign in I don't even know what to say. 

[Clare Greenhalgh]

Then maybe they should not answer the door at all.

[Tim Reynolds]

An ideal solution. 

[Peter "Sci" Turpin]

At risk of repeating myself, merely challenging is flawed as without
mandatory logging it is also both unenforceable and without accountability.

Letting someone in without their access card or gate-code is essentially
over-riding the primary security system of the space. Events like that
need to be logged.

[Russ Garrett]

At the risk of repeating what Tim has said, if people aren't currently
challenging visitors at the door then there's no chance in hell that
we'll be able to get them to do more than that. All your guest book
idea is going to do is prove this.

Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk

[Peter "Sci" Turpin]

So would just need a fairly dumb computer terminal by the front & back
doors.

Might be something for the "Haccess point" terminal idea, or Jonty's
automated sign-up station.

On 17/10/2013 16:08, Clare Greenhalgh wrote:
> The guest book would obviously need to be electronic and remotely stored
> so it can't go walkies... but what an excellent idea!
>
>
> On 17 October 2013 16:06, Peter "Sci" Turpin <s...@sci-fi-fox.com

[Patrick Dent]

On the subject of 'Prove it', maybe ask them what the code is for the padlock on the back gate. Granted, this isn't foolproof as some people who primarily use oysters only come and go before the shutters go own anyway. But at least people who are members should be able to sign into the website to prove that they're members to some degree.

Also, on the subject of space security, the gates to 445 were wide open for significant lengths of time on Tuesday night.

On Thursday, 17 October 2013 10:26:39 UTC+1, camo....@gmail.com wrote:

Hi everybody,

Yesterday night my laptop has been stolen in the workshop while I was talking with somebody. We think we saw the thief and even got his face on one of the CCTV camera. It is someone that has been here before. It is not a member, and we think he follows member through the main door when they are coming in or going out.

The police might come to see the footage today (in the afternoon, I think) so don't freak out if you see policemen around the Hackspace.

Cheers,

Camille

[andyf...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, October 17, 2013 3:11:12 PM UTC+1, mattp wrote:

> It was an honest question - there's no obvious way to tell if someone is a member or not when they knock.

Ask them to login to the hackspace members page on Tesla if they claim to be a member and have forgotton their card
 

This is true. But the majority of members will have oyster cards. The forgetting should happen sufficiently rarely that those members who are asked will hopefully appreciate the benefit of improved security.

Do we have many members who don't have oyster cards? (at all, I mean, rather than just not having one on our member database)

I don't, I use the mifare card my employer gave me

Andy

[Nick Johnson]

Now if an intruder wants to know the padlock code, he just has to ask you to prove your identity to him. :)

-Nick

--

[tom k&e]

We need some sort of shibboleet

[Tom Hodder]

On 17 October 2013 23:40, tom k&e <tomf...@gmail.com> wrote:

We need some sort of shibboleet

Ask them to identify some random component out of a tray near the door... 

 

[Alex Beckett]

I really like the guest book idea or at least some form of formal process. The problem with people answering the door at the moment is that unless they're a hackspace power user they probably have no way of knowing how to verify someone. I know as a relative newbie I wouldn't have a clue other then to ask them out right if they were a member and quiz them on what they were working on.

If there was a formal process written down by the door it would be a lot easier to follow.

We do obviously also have the problem of shoulder surfing which would probably be any crims next try. Do we need to make it a rule that everyone swipes before being let in?

[Chris Brasted]

'Power user' - nice distinction

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[Penguin]

Ask them the first rule of the hackspace....oh we painted that on the wall outside.

Plan b:
Cameras on the doors. Motion triggered. Stored for a fortnite.

Plan c: everyone must wear labcoats.

[Ian Lewis]

is it worth posting the picture of the 'suspect' on a user accessible only page, in case someone can identify him/her either to substantiate or eliminate them from the equation?

[Renato Lopes]

+1 for having the "suspect's" image circulated/printed  and cameras(it is sad but it is the best fallback in case shit happens as Camille pointed out). 

However one thing we are forgetting is that as Camille reported this guy is tagging along a member and getting in, so there is a good chance that the  "ask when opening the door to strangers" although correct, may not solve the situation. 

So, maybe every member should touch in, not just unlock the door.

On the greeting part, Any member, regardless of their social skills needs to (1) be comfortable to ask anyone if they are a member and to ask them to touch in or log on and (2) Not be offended when asked such a thing as we don't know each other's face. When I say "comfortable" I mean, "it is a rule of the space and it has to be followed" - this removes the potential awkwardness, specially if the request is met with a "sure".

[Benjamin Blundell]

So, some good ideas here but I think the take home points are mundane and low-fi. Its just down to personal and social awareness. In the past, we used to leave stuff around and it was fine. We can't do that anymore sadly and thats simply because the space is not the small place, behind a security fence that it once was. Second, Matt's attitude to new members is bang on. Make people feel welcome but at the same time, talk to them and if they are new, say that tuesdays are the time to come along so please pop back then so we can sign you up. This was a stance only adopted by a few. I've turned a few people away who "wanted to use the workshop on a pay and go basis".

There is no perfect security and the things I've mentioned just point to a bit of social and personal awareness which, sadly, is not something geeks are really known for (I include myself in that statement). I myself, made a mistake with my bike and it cost me, and its not one I'll make again. Took me a while to realise that our new location is not like the old one. 

Lets not get too carried away with the fact we might have a suspect. I dont think circulating is the right thing to do. Lets just keep our eyes peeled and our valuables out of sight.

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[Eugene Nadyrshin]

To help with having new members that haven't registered their card yet I've updated our guided tour wiki page to finish off at tesla and recommending that if they are thinking of becoming members that they should register their card so next time they come they have access.

[Sarah Simmonds]

I know there's been some discussions around improving the layout on the ground floor. Quite a lot of equipment is immediately viewable from the main door currently, I can imagine simply peeking in would be immensely interesting for thieving types.

If there's already plans to put a camera on the door, can I suggest a visual barrier so anyone standing at the door can't see who/what is in the space (we could even paint a really cool mural for them to look at instead!) and a monitor hooked up to the camera so the rest of the space can see someone is at the door?

I know obscurity isn't security and doesn't fix the issue of the current thief and his friends, but might help for any other randoms.

[Benjamin Blundell]

In the case of theft, out of sight, out of mind is indeed a good thing to do. 

/immediately thinks of a stern Jonty mural with laser eyes! :P

--

[Jasper Wallace]

On Fri, 18 Oct 2013, Eugene Nadyrshin wrote:

> To help with having new members that haven't registered their card yet I've updated our guided tour wiki page to
> finish off at tesla and recommending that if they are thinking of becoming members that they should register their
> card so next time they come they have access.

Don't forget that they will have to have registered on thw website before
they can add a card.

[http://pointless.net/] [0x2ECA0975]

[geekinesis]

Just looking at the wiki...
I consider myself reasonably computer litterate but have huge problems finding eventhe most basic information on there. I don't know much about how wiki pages work so I get frustrated by all the meaningless tabs and links which are more about editing than about a clear navigation from page to page...
Anyway I still can't find the instructions for adding an oyster card. Or the padlock code... Is the current wiki the best way of storing information like this?

[geekinesis]

Or at least could someone put links on the front page to those pages?

[Patrick Dent]

The padlock combination is not on the wiki at all because, as a publicly available resource, this would defeat the purpose of having a lock. And the wiki has a search function, y'know.

On Oct 18, 2013 7:03 PM, "geekinesis" <geeki...@googlemail.com> wrote:

Or at least could someone put links on the front page to those pages?

[Mark Steward]

You'll find the card and padlock code pages on the main website:

  https://london.hackspace.org.uk/members

Mark

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[Chris Brasted]

You have to log in. There's a login for the site add a member, and another login to edit wiki pages.

[invent_or]

Ok, some solutions for you all. Thank me later.

Switch to a dual or two factor authentication system. The card plus a PIN. When you want to open the door, use your Oyster card and corresponding PIN, or, if forgotten, allow the use of a PIN alone.

However, with the number of users you have, this would be too easy to guess in a few goes, if any PIN would work, so tie it to membership number, or, only allow the PIN as a secret to confirm validity once inside the space - so if someone is let in, they have to punch in their PIN to confirm they're allowed in.

Anyone claiming to be a member who forgets both his card and PIN is clearly a chancer.

(The reason for adding the PIN to the usual card access is it stops anyone using a stolen card, but, more importantly, people cake then forget it because they would be using it on entry every time. )

[Paddy Duncan]

We will definitely thank you once you have completed it, vw!

--
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

[Simon Howes]

Guys, this has been bugging me for a bit and I'm glad we've been discussing solutions to the problem. There's something that's been needling at me though - what if he, or his mates come back?

Its been a few days now, the initial surge has calmed down, but what concrete measures have we been put in place to prevent this happening again? What do we do if he pops up at the space again?

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[Russ Garrett]

On 19 October 2013 11:44, Simon Howes <simonh...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Its been a few days now, the initial surge has calmed down, but what
> concrete measures have we been put in place to prevent this happening again?
> What do we do if he pops up at the space again?

We're installing a door closer on the front door to reduce the chance
of it being left open. We're also going to put a notice on the front
door saying to only let people in if you are happy asking them if
they're a member.

--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk

[invent_or]

Shall I spell out again that I'm not a member of LHS? I am a founder of Birmingham maker space, & barely have time to sort & visit there.

I've been down to LHS about 4 times at Kramer st. to help out but never to the new more edgey space.

I would consider coming down & sorting the back gate or other security issues, but I'd charge money for it. That's my job, after all.

[Tim Reynolds]

You illicit these reactions because the only thing you seem to do is popup, tell everyone they're doing wrong and attempt to impress upon everyone how qualified you are in the security arena.

It is your job after all.

Unless you're going to rip the stick out of your ass and actually help, no one gives a fuck. Go and secure your fridge with triple factor security and tell the cat about it, may it be impressed where we aren't.

[Patrick Dent]

The unsolicited felicitations illicit explicit expositions.

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[Mark Steward]

Good grief, please take this conversation off list.

Mark

[invent_or]

Well, your attitude stinks.

Haven't heard even a vague suggestion from you on how to actually solve the problem, have we? All you've done is state other people's ideas won't work. I was merely pointing out to Paddy that no, I'll not be helping out beyond giving you a simple way forward.

You ALL already have passwords in a database, how hard would it be to use that as a secondary authentication to absolutely avoid the "I forgot my card" scenario that currently bypasses the security entirely? Better than a guestbook. I figure it'd take not even half a day to rig up a keyboard and patch a bit of code so that a users password could be used instead of their Oyster card to open the door.

[Jonty Wareing]

Please stop slinging insults.

Regardless of whatever over the top technical solutions people devise for
this, the fundamental issues we face are doors and gates not being locked
properly and fences not being high enough.

We are an open and accepting space, so there will always be ways for people
to concoct laptop heists using holes in our policies. They won't though,
they'll just tailgate someone oblivious in the door or smash a window when
nobody is around.

The basic fact is that we have >800 members, and not everyone is vigilant,
nor can they be made to be.

When we've fixed the wide open gaping security holes feel free to devise
technical solutions to social problems, but do not expect anyone else to
implement them just because you've written an email to the list. Things
only get done by people wanting to make them happen.

Please remember that there is nothing more frustrating than people
shouting from the sidelines with advice when you're attempting to get
things done.

--jonty

[Eugene Nadyrshin]

Well said Jonty!

[Alex Pounds]

On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 02:56:03AM -0700, Tom Sands wrote:
> Tonight I'll print a reminder by the door that non-members arriving not on
> open days should not be let in without prior appointment, and if they are
> let in someone must be responsible for them.

At the risk of re-igniting an old thread, there are a few things I'd like
to say on this topic. Sorry.

First up: as far as I know, Hackspace policy is not "non-members are only
welcome on Tuesday evenings, or by prior appointment." It's closer to
"non-members can turn up when they like, but if they haven't arranged it
beforehand they might not be let in/helped with their projects/get access
to tools that need training/etc." This approach was chosen for a few
reasons. It's a useful soft sell - people turn up a few times, decide they
like the Hackspace, and decide to become a member - it makes the Hackspace
a community resource, and it helps keep a spirit of openness/friendliness.

It's possible that this policy worked in Cremer Street with a lower
membership, and is no longer feasible in our new location with ~800
members. It's also possible it didn't work very well then either, and we
should try something more restrictive like that outlined above. But I'm
not comfortable with the idea that this has *always* been the policy, and
I've been imagining the first state of affairs.

The other element to this is the human factor. It's all very well saying
"If you're not prepared to question/refuse people, don't answer the door,"
but if the doorbell's rung 5 times in 1 minute people will answer it to
make the annoying noise stop. Or if you're working at the electronics
bench/main area desks (thus visible to the door) people won't be
comfortable ignoring it.


My second unpopular opinion is that the Hackspace should be considered a
semi-public space, at least in regards to cameras. If you turn up, you
should expect to be photographed/videoed. This isn't to say that courtesy
is disposed of - I'm OK with the 'ask before you film' policies - but I'm
also in favour of more webcam coverage, photo/video being taken whenever
the doors are opened, etc.


Finally, I have a half-baked suggestion I'd like to make: I've been
considering the idea of a reception desk in the Hackspace. A desk where
people who are willing to answer the door & greet new people can sit, ask
non-members to sign in, and explain what the Hackspace is & how it works.
Not just on Tuesday evenings, at any time. They can get on with their own
projects too, but should expect interruptions. We can draw up reminder
info posters & sellotape them to the desk to help people give out the
correct information (I'm happy to write some).

The idea is this will help with new visitors being let in & abandoned,
improve the information we give to new visitors, and allow others to
ignore the doorbell with a little less guilt. It might also help with
non-members excessively using the space (as it's now more awkward and they
have to sign in) and *might* help with security even though it's only
security theatre. The downsides (this is why I called it half-baked):
what's the motivation for someone to act as receptionist - is altruism
enough to make it workable? Will it actually help with any of the above?
What happens if the person acting as the receptionist steps away for a
while? Is it an over-complicated solution that won't actually work in
practise?

It would be good if we could find a way to discuss it at a level deeper
than "I think it would work/I think it wouldn't," as I don't think we'll
figure that out from mailing list discussions. Instead, we should decide
whether it's worth trying, if we'd get enough people volunteering, and how
we could make it useful/fulfilling for everyone - visitors and members.


Thanks for reading,

--
Alex Pounds
Web Developer & Photographer

http://alexpounds.com/ | http://ethicsgirls.com/

[Jasper Wallace]

On Sun, 20 Oct 2013, Alex Pounds wrote:

> On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 02:56:03AM -0700, Tom Sands wrote:
> > Tonight I'll print a reminder by the door that non-members arriving not on
> > open days should not be let in without prior appointment, and if they are
> > let in someone must be responsible for them.
>
> At the risk of re-igniting an old thread, there are a few things I'd like
> to say on this topic. Sorry.
>
> First up: as far as I know, Hackspace policy is not "non-members are only
> welcome on Tuesday evenings, or by prior appointment." It's closer to
> "non-members can turn up when they like, but if they haven't arranged it
> beforehand they might not be let in/helped with their projects/get access
> to tools that need training/etc." This approach was chosen for a few
> reasons. It's a useful soft sell - people turn up a few times, decide they
> like the Hackspace, and decide to become a member - it makes the Hackspace
> a community resource, and it helps keep a spirit of openness/friendliness.

That dosn't really work tho, they turn up a few times, wander around like
a ghost and everyone ignores them!

I don't think this will work outside tuesday evenings, there's just too
much time involved, we'd be better with a longer, more detailed hackspace
leaflet / intro that goes into the membership process in more depth.

Having this on tuesday evenings would be a good idea tho, if we split the
evening into hour long slots, starting at 6:30pm and ending at 10:30 that
gives us 4 hour long shifts

> The idea is this will help with new visitors being let in & abandoned,
> improve the information we give to new visitors, and allow others to
> ignore the doorbell with a little less guilt. It might also help with
> non-members excessively using the space (as it's now more awkward and they
> have to sign in) and *might* help with security even though it's only
> security theatre. The downsides (this is why I called it half-baked):
> what's the motivation for someone to act as receptionist - is altruism
> enough to make it workable?

On of the things that will help is making the role clearly time limited,
that way anyone volunteering for it won't be daunted by the idea that they
will have to do it forever.

> Will it actually help with any of the above?
> What happens if the person acting as the receptionist steps away for a
> while? Is it an over-complicated solution that won't actually work in
> practise?
>
> It would be good if we could find a way to discuss it at a level deeper
> than "I think it would work/I think it wouldn't," as I don't think we'll
> figure that out from mailing list discussions. Instead, we should decide
> whether it's worth trying, if we'd get enough people volunteering, and how
> we could make it useful/fulfilling for everyone - visitors and members.
>
>
> Thanks for reading,
>
>

--

[http://pointless.net/] [0x2ECA0975]

[William Beaufoy]

I think it's good that people can turn up any time to check out the hackspace. However a few times I have let some people in to wander around on their own. In future I will only let them in if I have the time to give a quick tour so they're not left on their own. If I can't I'll ask if anyone else can, if they can't then they'll have to come back.

[Paul Randle-Jolliffe]

I think there are some space issues that result in the move from Cramer St to the new space, my thoughts are as follows

The new space is very different, its not quite lived in yet an very utilitarian, the old space was truly lived in, Hackers had made their mark with all sorts of great and humerus grafity and the space was owned, this has not yet happened in the new space and it seems vacant and lacking in character.

This alone makes a space vulnerable as it comes across as yet uncared for, if you have studied psychology in regard to buildings you will know that borders, entry and exist spaces are the key factor, the threshold, front door or fence and then the lobby or hall are the 1st line of security in Pysc terms, you paint your door, put your psychological fence up and make it yours, hackspace has yet to do this and frankly it looks as if we have moved into a derelict space and i suggest this invites trouble. I would suggest. The shutters, the lobby and the main door need bringing upto a high standard of decor and yes a reception desk, even if not actively used it should act as at least the psychological barrier to delineate between public/private space, the new space is off a busy street and needs to account for that maybe to the extent of there being a counter and small waist height barrier between the front door and around the seating area with say coded swing doors so the rest of the space is not just automatic walk in and this acts as a sort of reception space.This could have a policy of get to know anyone in this space, this would add security

Not sure I can emphasis how important this is, the entrance area should be fully owned  as security is about more than just locks and cameras, soft security like this is just as important when there is footfall.

Personally A great big Hackspace H in the lobby and maybe on the shutters etc would look great as well as having clean doors and windows, some paint and flooring and sign-age. CCTV Cam policy etc 

Not sure what on the outside is part of the building,ie  what is public pavement and what is not and usable, but the more you impose outward the more Pysc security you give, the proverbial fence/border  

The back door is less easy as it cannot be generally seen, I would suggest that its the front door that should be used by most people, unless you have a vehicle and guests 7 visitors must come through this only, if guests try to come through the back, unless accompanied by a member, they be sent round the front. 

The old small space was frankly friendlier as it was smaller people had to interact, this gave some security, the larger space does not have that, its less intimate and easier to get lost in which means less interactions that its going to take some adjustments and ownership.

--

Paul Randle-Jolliffe Esq

Land Line: +44 (0) 207 193 9991
Mbl: +44 (0) 7 411 99 6893

Fax: +44 (0) 871 266 8130

 

On 20 October 2013 17:28, Jasper Wallace <jas...@pointless.net> wrote: