lab technician ?

[Jon Russell]

I know we're short of funds due to the new building but when the coffers are in the black again should we consider a part time or full time lab technician.

I've only been a member for a few months but I've noticed the list is frequently busy with broken tools, lost stuff and things left out...

I understand the space ethos relies on the efforts of everyone volunteering but

[Jon Russell]

Oops ! Premature send !!!

[Glen]

What are you doing Jon! The Space tore itself apart when some people thought we needed a cleaner, what do you think will happen if the drama cloud hears your say we need full time staff?

[Jon Russell]

I understand the space relies on volenteers but it also syffers from their time constraints.

Perhaps someone in the space daily maintaining the tools and fixing things would help ?

I also understand they may mean people become a bit lazy thinking it's someone else's job ?

But having a regular person in the space all the time would also catch misuse and dangerous behaviour ?

Just a thought...

Sorry if this had been discussed before ...

Jon.

[Gruff]

Employing and retaining good staff is Not Cheap. It also brings with it a host of legal, financial and administrative obligations. I can't believe hiring someone is the correct solution to asshats needlessly breaking nice things, and leaving stuff out in the rain.

[Monty]

Not sure if you're aware but the space went and got a cleaner as a result of that discussion.

[Jon Russell]

Oops. Sorry if I've started a flame war ...

We had a fantastic lab technician at school. (30 years ago mind you) who was a fantastic machinist. Young chap. Enthusiastic, taught me how to weld, use a lathe, mill, etc. All in our lunch times.

Spent the day between classes fixing tools and improving the shop.

Jon.

[David Dorward]

On 20 May 2013, at 12:54, Jon Russell wrote:

> Perhaps someone in the space daily maintaining the tools and fixing
> things would help ?

That would be expensive. I was under the impression that the current
income already didn't cover the cost of the new facility and that
Hackspace was running on savings and hoping that the new space would
increase membership.

> I also understand they may mean people become a bit lazy thinking it's
> someone else's job ?

This would be a worry.

> But having a regular person in the space all the time would also catch
> misuse and dangerous behaviour ?

"All the time" would be 24/7, which would be _very_ expensive as it
would involve multiple people, night shifts and weekend work.

[Clare Greenhalgh]

The difference is schools employ many staff, from a lab tech to cleaners to cooks to teachers.... We have one lady who comes in once a week to spruce the place up....

This is a HUGE difference to have someone there a great deal more fixing the stuff we should either fix ourselves or mail the list if we find it broken or do not know what happened....

We are a community of people who should be able to fix things themselves, or at least be able to find someone who can help to fix it, or fix it for a beer or pizza....

Jon.


--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "London Hackspace" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to london-hack-sp...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

[SamLR]

I like the idea but I can't see us affording this in the foreseeable future. 

As you say they ideally need to be in every day or at least every other day and probably for about 2 hours to check everything suitably so it's going to be about £200/month and that's paying minimum wage (£6.30/hour). Which I don't think is fair or likely if you want a skilled technician...

As I said I like the idea but I really can't see this being an option soon. 

S

[Monty]

Although not currently because someone still needs to text her and show her round the new place. :P

[Bernard Tyers - ei8fdb]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 20 May 2013, at 12:59, Jon Russell wrote:

> We had a fantastic lab technician at school. (30 years ago mind you) who was a fantastic machinist. Young chap. Enthusiastic, taught me how to weld, use a lathe, mill, etc. All in our lunch times.
>
> Spent the day between classes fixing tools and improving the shop.
>
> Jon.

Thanks for coming in for the interview. I'm happy to say we'd like to hire you as the fulltime lab tech.

Salary is all the air you can breath, and you'll be allowed to leave at the end of the day!

You start next Monday!

:)

Joking aside, I think that would mean the hackspace would become a workshop for "users" as opposed to hackers. I understand the well meaning nature of your suggestion.

If I don't know how to use something I a) don't touch it and stay away, or preferably b) learn how to use it and then take part in the upkeep and care of it.

Making people into users as opposed to doers makes me sad.

Just my 2 centibitcoins.

Bernard
- --------------------------------------
Bernard / bluboxthief / ei8fdb

IO91XM / www.ei8fdb.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2.0.17 (Darwin)
Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org

iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJRmhMgAAoJENsz1IO7MIrriucIAJcZRWNN7y9gvPai+wUVqYPC
G3f+WSj0fB2eVa9gm/IN4DU/FPu90vwklDl2aFfNBWkx0X6+0RhT3i2QOyaiMl4y
OFHif7NaiSvkcXrYpMrNn19f0ojRz7JtgLZ5g2jrw2dv9cuKZolGBji0Obkv/6f2
3IT1tB/j9o/KJPvB/PKsB7ZXHDBzH3J+dyVKUykBq2vKwGc4nD6JLYarZznW+m6R
5m3mv5tJuGNnSV0Kbo7WukGenooKrnXN5/Xo/TWliFKjXcOvn7EXXypNjClEY0Rd
frWOdwGh5jOpx3jVCG1LzUePer2C2OTQlHkToH2M9uBnVIYmPFdcXan+zcGHc6E=
=/Rq8
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

[Bernard Tyers - ei8fdb]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 20 May 2013, at 13:02, Clare Greenhalgh wrote:

> We are a community of people who should be able to fix things themselves, or at least be able to find someone who can help to fix it, or fix it for a beer or pizza....

Here here!

As long as there is someone willing and interested in helping. But thats a different story.

- --------------------------------------
Bernard / bluboxthief / ei8fdb

IO91XM / www.ei8fdb.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2.0.17 (Darwin)
Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org

iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJRmhOhAAoJENsz1IO7MIrrb2AH/3xBHLtUM7LHD/fNe3xdl4k7
PmrB0qgVQfVmKT4rw0WF8kBDI9TsDVxNbp6xAjs9gfoX8tJYSUMGzYvX0609ez01
W085DFhfEsQIdHtxAU9XjJ/u8teqMwNRMVoTjxgBtCzObCuW3nX4iACcH8WsdtW6
yCf1d4WcmqzTLMvzsdRS9uiEKyVvFGf1Ke+1ozKY4CKn2nr08Aq53cLr9O+cjKvA
G5ZgcETo+6rV7Dswc8xUXUiHYJv1rS4tLLzgLfzyVllznbNUooukwB4Ndp/40yA+
aNvZceVqPaJcnjbVe/Gb1vQZ0lf4marId73oaKNn9m/34I+p3SY5VhsjJ4CJQ3Q=
=Gdhb
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

[chrisbob12]

That's an unexpected proposal. I struggle to see how it would play out, but it raises some interesting possibilities.
As someone has already pointed out, we currently have a structural deficit wrt income and outgoings, so increasing our commitments seems perverse.
However.
Increasing membership would be predicated on finding sufficient people who'd be ok with the current situation, i.e. be ready to spend time fixing stuff at the expense of using it.
So having some way of improving machine uptime could rather change the LHS offer, and potentially increase the appeal of membership.
When I joined the space, I discussed it with a friend, who decided not to join for just those reasons (said person makes some pretty cool stuff too).
If we want to grow slightly, then there's probably no great call for change, but if we want to grow more substantially and sustainably, then it's worth considering, though be clear what's wanted. I'd say we want more machine uptime: a technician would be a means to this end.

Regards Chris.

[Glen]

Here's my personal experience. Some time ago I started keeping a log of what it cost me to come to the Hackspace and find broken tools. The tools I used were mostly the lathe, piller drill, laser cutter and 3D printer. As I was coming to the space in the evening by the time I had fixed the tool I wanted to use I would have to leave to get the last train. I found with the cost of travel and the time spent working for free it was cheaper for me to buy my own: 3D printer, lathe, piller drill & mill. I bought these tools and dopped my subscription down to the minimum.

I no longer come to the Space to get work done.

I don't recommend you draw any conclusions from a sample of one, but if there had been working tools I would still use the Space as a workshop, give the Space a high monthly subscription and probably have carried on donating tools & crates of beer.

Glen 

[David Murphy]

How about similar to our occasional big space cleaning weekends we have a weekend of fixing things and cataloging anything which needs repair or replacement even down to the little things like wonky pliers and bent screwdrivers. 

As Glen points out we're losing money by not doing this. 

Also it could be good to try to spread the knowledge of how to fix some things a bit more. I'm pretty sure a lot of the big tools come down to 3 or 4 people who actually have the knowledge to fix even routine problems. 

--

[Simon Howes]

My opinion on this is that we've always needed a grumpy old machinist to keep things ticking over. Geeks tend to be inspired by varied and changing things - its in their nature. The monotony of endlessly fixing the same broken tools in anathema!

As we have expanded beyond a small size, there's less and less of people knowing each other. It only takes one derp to engage the spindle lock while cutting with the rage saw to break it. And there are more derps nao!
As we get more members this only becomes more the case.

Likewise, I think we should be considering a certain amount of money each month for replacing worn/broken tools. Its going to happen no matter what you write on wikis, what signs you put up, or how good willed any training or awareness intentions are. Working tools are a qualitive thing. Maybe I'm wrong, and I'd hope to be next time is step into the space, but my feeling is that everything is always broken.

Hence I've not been in, in about 2 months.
Because I have a lot on, and the only place I have any confidence I'll be able to do them is my own home lab. Which is a pity, because I like the peeps in the hax.

[Aaron Sokoloski]

On Mon, May 20, 2013 at 2:20 PM, Simon Howes <simonh...@googlemail.com> wrote:

My opinion on this is that we've always needed a grumpy old machinist to keep things ticking over. Geeks tend to be inspired by varied and changing things - its in their nature. The monotony of endlessly fixing the same broken tools in anathema!

I try to fill that role whenever I'm around, and it would be great if others could do the same.  I think that there are other ways we can work on the problem, too:

- ACnode, of course

- Copious (to the point of excessive) documentation (in situ, because people rarely think to check the wiki once in the shop)

  - How to use/not use/maintain tools

  - What tools to use for particular jobs/materials, and which ones shouldn't because they'll be damaged

- General shop training events

- Better organization of tools, so broken/missing ones get noticed earlier

As we have expanded beyond a small size, there's less and less of people knowing each other. It only takes one derp to engage the spindle lock while cutting with the rage saw to break it. And there are more derps nao!
As we get more members this only becomes more the case.

Very true.  Nobody's perfect, and it only takes one derp moment to break something.

 
On May 20, 2013 1:06 PM, "David Murphy" <murphy...@gmail.com> wrote:

How about similar to our occasional big space cleaning weekends we have a weekend of fixing things and cataloging anything which needs repair or replacement even down to the little things like wonky pliers and bent screwdrivers.

 

Great idea.  Perhaps during this event, people who have more experience can take a few minutes to educate noobs about how to avoid breaking things.  The more people who know how to use tools correctly, the more likely we are to catch unknowning misuse before it happens.
 

[Martin (Crypt)]

I think space cleaning weekends or evening are a great idea to get people together to clean/fix things.  I'd be up for helping out if we wanted to organise this and turn up if thats what people think is a good idea.

Right now, with the budget already squeezed I don't think this is a good use of our cash, however I've nothing ideologically against it if we did find ourselves in a better financial situation down the line at some point.

--

[Martin Dittus]

One thing that's easily overlooked -- we already have quite a few "grumpy machinists" who over the years have kept things in shape. I know of at least a handful who fit that description and spent a significant amount of time on this, and I'm sure there are quite a few more. They're not always very visible, and they may only stick around for a few months before they move on to other things…

Maybe what we need is not someone who gets paid to do this, but means of making more visible who these people are, and how to reach them for advice. The former approach risks all kinds of unintended consequences (e.g. a shift in member attitudes and expectations), the latter encourages members to educate themselves, and rewards engagement.

m.

[Simon Howes]

Yet we still get back to the same problem
Maintenance is boring
geeks are more inspired to do their own projects
Hence everything is always broken
Which discourages the memberbase

You can write wikis till the cows come home
And have all the best intentions in the world
"Engage members in bla de bla bla bla"
"Try to promote an attitude of yada yada"

but its not going to change the fact
That everything is broken

[chrisbob12]

@Aaron
Sounds like a good argument for an induction session for all new joiners. You could hire someone in to make sure it happened.

[Aaron Sokoloski]

Simon, complaining doesn't fix tools either, and can be quite discouraging to other people.  Things aren't going to change overnight, but every little step in the right direction helps. 

[Simon Howes]

You misunderstand.
this is not me complaining - I am being critical of the current process

Firstly, don't get me wrong - I am very grateful for the quality work that has been done by so many people in setting up and running the hackspace. The can-do attitude is our greatest asset.

My fear though is that there is an growing undercurrent of negativity that is caused by the perception that things are always broken and the lack of traction in fixing them. In some cases it surfaces in negative remarks and attitudes (broken window syndrome) in others we simply lose members, or have them drop membership to min as a way of "punishing the space".

I don't think people should stop being excellent or stop doing and making awesome improvements to the space. I am asking instead, would it not be augmented by having some of the boring (repetitive, or non-inspiring to hackers) work handled by a part time employee? (I'm sure some of our members could use the dosh!)

That way basic stuff stays working and the cool people who make cool improvements to the space can keep on being awesome and adding more cool things. Rather than continually fixing basic low-level stuff.

[Aaron Sokoloski]

On Mon, May 20, 2013 at 3:45 PM, Simon Howes <simonh...@googlemail.com> wrote:

You misunderstand.
this is not me complaining - I am being critical of the current process

Firstly, don't get me wrong - I am very grateful for the quality work that has been done by so many people in setting up and running the hackspace. The can-do attitude is our greatest asset.

My fear though is that there is an growing undercurrent of negativity that is caused by the perception that things are always broken and the lack of traction in fixing them. In some cases it surfaces in negative remarks and attitudes (broken window syndrome) in others we simply lose members, or have them drop membership to min as a way of "punishing the space".

I don't think people should stop being excellent or stop doing and making awesome improvements to the space. I am asking instead, would it not be augmented by having some of the boring (repetitive, or non-inspiring to hackers) work handled by a part time employee? (I'm sure some of our members could use the dosh!)

Hmm, good point.  If this happens, it will surely have to wait until the current critical cashflow state is remedied.  However, there's an argument to be made that the return on investment of having someone look after the tools is greater than shelling out for replacement parts everytime something gets broken.

I also think that there's a good argument that whoever takes on this role should focus more on educating people, preventing damage, and preserving the tools, than on fixing them once they're broken.  The first is cheaper, and also keeps the do-it-yourself attitude we want to encourage.

In any case, though, I still think we have lots of options, and should attack this problem from multiple directions, not just hope that hiring someone will fix it completely (although it would surely be a big help).  I've got big hopes on ACNode as well.

[Alison W]

Every day there seems to be a post here about something being broken, and most times I wonder why the children have not bee told off by their parents (sortof). When was the last time your toilet at home (or in the office) was broken off from the wall? and then repaired only for it to happen again? What about leaving chairs out in the rain? or tools all over the place (often blunted or broken)?

Yes, everybody in the space - especially *members* - SHOULD take part daily in helping keep the place in a good state of repair, tidiness, cleanliness, and usability. But instead every day we see a suggestion of a new project with lots of AOL!s - ignoring the essence of the hackspace that it is a JOINT effort, not something provided as a plaything for some whilst the upkeep falls on the few. To my mind there frequently appears to be some sort of '[parent] will tidy up after me' belief in play. Hell, it is this behaviour which got me so pissed off I have (for most practical purposes) currently stopped coming there; it is just too depressing and shouting at people has no good effect. I might as well stick to saving up until I can buy my own good tools which I can keep in good repair, much as that is not my preferred option.

Having someone as a *focus* for maintenance could work, but it really shouldn't have to. But then, it seems, geeks just want to be geeks (and not cleaners, repairers, sensible, etc)

2p'worth.

--

[Ndlovu (aka) Dean]

yep I believe that there is a desperate need for this as well as proper and transparent governance in the space but that is another issue - both are related but lets stick to the orginal  point 

I voted for a new trustee at the last election largely becuase he supported the concept of this idea but then and now he appeared to a large extent to be an lone island in a wild sea, lets/I hope this thread goes some way to  changing that ..... my experince is very similar to that of Glen Glen Tools Journey and my view ishow can we not afford this :-) 

[Russ Garrett]

A full-time employee at a reasonable wage would cost us around
£2200/month. Even someone on one day a week would be about £450/month.
The additional administrative overhead of operating with employees
would probably be significant enough that I would probably need to
take a part-time salary as well. (Or we'd have to pay someone to
handle it.)

At the moment our expenses are around £11,000 and our income is about
£8,000, so we're operating at a deficit of approximately £3000/month.
It will be at least a year before there's any chance this will be
financially possible. So I see limited point in discussing it now,
however I will:

I don't think this is a good idea. It would completely change the
dynamic of the Hackspace; it'll result in people expecting things to
be done for them, where that isn't the spirit of the space.

We're well aware of the problem of broken tools and here's what we're
doing about it:

- We will be implementing the acnodes. This will restrict important
tools to members only, and it'll record an audit trail of who used
tools which should make people better at reporting problems.
- We're interesting in starting a scheme where we pay members a bounty
for work done on tools. This is especially needed for the laser
cutter, which is why a lot of people are members of the space.
- I personally think that the reason a lot of smaller tools are broken
is that simply that they're cheap. We should invest more in
good-quality new tools (but obviously we have no money at the moment).

After we've exhausted all other options, I will be happy discussing employees.

Russ

On 20 May 2013 12:50, Jon Russell <goo...@red-herring.co.uk> wrote:
> I know we're short of funds due to the new building but when the coffers are in the black again should we consider a part time or full time lab technician.
>
> I've only been a member for a few months but I've noticed the list is frequently busy with broken tools, lost stuff and things left out...
>
> I understand the space ethos relies on the efforts of everyone volunteering but
>

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "London Hackspace" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to london-hack-sp...@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>
>

--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk

[SamLR]

- I personally think that the reason a lot of smaller tools are broken
is that simply that they're cheap. We should invest more in
good-quality new tools (but obviously we have no money at the moment).

Something I'd like to see implemented (and I did try) is more regular clear outs/stock taking sessions. A lot of hand tools/bits are essentially consumables* (very few tools are designed to get as much use as a lot of our tools do, certainly given the range of competencies**). If we have a good idea of:

a) how often something breaks

b) what breaks

c) why it breaks

we can hopefully improve our training, stocking and purchasing of tools. 

I disagree with Russ that a lab tech would change the feel of the space but I do think it would cost us a lot of money (making this discussion pretty much moot) and likely either have to be very well paid or be a position that's not full for long. 

As to the rest

bounty suggestion: excellent idea

Acnodes: yes please

cheapness: not sure, I'd love to try and get some data/info on what tools get used, how, by who and how they break. Maybe post PhD I'll attempt to find out...

S

* I'd love to know if anyone has any information on how often the tools in, e.g. a school workshop, get changed I'd imagine it's pretty regularly.

** This the 600 first time users effect, i.e. in a personal workshop you might crash the 3D printer tip once or twice, in a workshop with 600+ people that's 600 times people can make what is an entirely understandable mistake that takes a few seconds of inattention. I'm not giving this as an excuse for people being careless/poorly trained just an example of the kind of stresses that any gear in our workshop has to put up with which is far beyond the normal

[Ndlovu (aka) Dean]

largley in response to Russ post on this thread but also expanding on the thread

1) Question (Culture)

 

What do the member want? 

"It would completely change the dynamic of the Hackspace; it'll result in people expecting things to be done for them, where that isn't the spirit of the space."

 

# There is a silent majority in the space what do they want, the space should also be aware of its size and what is required to run an organisation of this size organisation adapt or die and I don’t want to see this organisation die due to it ability to change - though I do feel that the "change" that is needed should be debated # I want the space to grow as a hub for collaboration and making and am aware that many other people will have different views

 

2) Question (Financial Policy)

Based on observations to paragraph one in Russ's note

# With an organisation the size we have how can we not operate without financial transparency, whether they are looked at or not at a set of management accounts is in my view a requirement, this is in response to quoting of numbers without disclosing full information on a regular basisi in a structured way, In the space around the desks and work benches there have been a number of conversation about how the space is short of money vs finding missing pots of money or the spending of money being biased, My question is and has been can we afford not to structure the budget and functions so that it is with in our ability to fulfil these roles (there are many ways to  do this)   and on governance we are a community organisation that there are not clear management available on a regular basis is just simply wrong as anyone who has been involved in governance will know whether they are read or not is not the point and as anyone who has a finical background will know sensitive information can be easily filtered out

3) Question (Openness)

 "So I see limited point in discussing it now, however I will:"

 # As a trustee should you be saying this ….

 

Long live the space :-)

[chrisbob12]

re silent majority
It would probably be productive to establish how membership breaks down in terms of who pays what, frequency of use of the space, and what they get out of it. A questionnaire might be in order. It could support decisions on membership development.

Regards, Chris.

[Martin (Crypt)]

As I understand it the trustees are just members and are overworked as it is.  See the statement about possibly having this as a part time job.  We elect the trustees, we should trust them to do a good job and they generally do supply lots of information, when they can.  But they are only humans, and only have so much time.  I'd far rather they spend that time looking after the space the way they do than, and thank them for it, than have them spend endless hours in the name of openess.

Also, can we keep this thread on topic, I'd suggest starting another topic if you want to discuss changing the management structure of the space.

--

[Nick Johnson]

A yearly census seems like it would be a sensible thing to do, and much of the information (frequency of visits etc) could be collected automatically. I'm hesitant to suggest anything that puts more workload on the trustees, though.

-Nick

[Billy]

Ask for a volunteer to create a survey that runs on the wiki.

Since Tom Wyatt is working on restoring the functionality to Doorbot's
voice, add a "Nag" function, that will change, once the survey has
been done. That'll cover the people who turn up regularly.

Or a direct email sent to everyone on the membership list...

[chrisbob12]

@Billy
I'd advocate using the wiki to design the q're, and using the infrequent mailing list that the trustees use to deploy a link to survey monkey (or whatever it's called now) given the size of the membership, we might have to pay for the service we need.
On the plus side, it could be a useful decision support tool as we move to grow our income/membership.

[tom]

am i?

i'm working on getting the voice generator back but thats stalled as my VPS provider is shit

[Billy]

Sorry, got the wrong end of the stick when talking to you last night.

> > > > email to london-hack-sp...@googlegroups.com <javascript:>.

[Billy]

Back to the topic:

A lab tech shouldn't be needed.

Between us we have over 660 different skill-sets.

As an individual, go look at the situation we have, then go choose the
problem you want to fix, then go fix it.

If you don't have the required skills, go learn them. Ask for help.

We have all the capabilities and the facilities to build the stuff we
need, to repair the stuff we've got, and to build the new facilities
we want.

It will mean having to be realistic about what you can do, and being
realistic about what you know and don't know.

It will mean that you'll have to pay attention to the Dunning-Kreuger
effect.

It will mean having to admit to yourself, and to others, when you've
fucked up, and being willing to fix it when it happens.

It will require a constant "active love" to sustain the willingness to
continue to work, when things aren't going well

It will mean that you will have to ignore the negative internal
dialogue that says "You are not capable of changing the way things are
done!", "Why should I do that when other people aren't pulling their
weight!", "I can't do this!".

Do a project for yourself, and then do something that improves the
world around you.

It will mean that you will have to trust that other people are
following the same strategy, (Go read Hofstadter's commentaries on The
Prisoner's Dilemma, and Game Theory in general.)

It will mean that you will have to get your hands dirty, but dirt
washes off.

-1 Lab tech proposal

+1 Doing it ourselves

[Simon Howes]

Bzzzzzt.
times up for wishful thinking

[Tom Sands]

It looks to me like a fantastic waste of money that could potentially be spent elsewhere for greater effect. Everything in the space can be cleaned and maintained by the people that use it.
 
-1 Lab tech

[Tim Reynolds]

+1 

Pull your fingers out. Clean up. Don't break stuff. If you see someone being an idiot, slap them. A technician will just encourage people to think along the lines of "oh the tech will fix that, whatever" 

--

[David Murphy]

>Bzzzzzt.
>times up for wishful thinking

I don't know about you but I'd love to fix some of the machines but I don't have the skillset and don't particularly want to break things more badly. I'm sure there's a lot more in the same boat. Hence why I earlier suggested some classes (organised similar to laser cutter training but more in depth) on tool maintenance. 

--

[Simon Howes]

And yet it is not.
two years on and with more members so many things are not working.
What's the point in spending 8k rent on a warehouse where everything is broken?

For all the sentiment about the great utopian society of hackers we still come back to the problem nobody really likes to clean toilets. (this is a metaphor, thankyou to whoever actually does that!)

I don't go to the hackspace because I want to fix all the plugs on the soldering irons, or rebuild and repair every tool I need to use. I'd like to go there to make things! And the fact that so many things aren't working suggests to me that this is the group consensus! Why isn't everyone in there right now fixing all the broken things? Shall we update the wiki again? Will that make it happen?

We don't need to spend a fortune on this either, but I think we should explore options of having someone (very likely one of our members) do some of the nuts and bolts boilerplate work in maintaining the tools on an ongoing basis. This doesn't have to cost a lot, either.

--

[Tim Reynolds]

Does it cost more than -£2k?

[Charles Yarnold]

On 21 May 2013 13:52, Simon Howes <simonh...@googlemail.com> wrote:

What's the point in spending 8k rent on a warehouse where everything is broken?

Its not, your painting a much much worse painting than is true. Its quite unhelpful. 

[Dr Thrax]

Could we not chip in for a few beers and organize an event where we all pop in once a month and help repair/maintain the tools  (under the supervision of someone who knows what their doing). Something along the lines of "a Pint and a Polish" 

[Simon Howes]

Charles

Sorry to have to do this, but

Is the laser cutter working?

How often has it been broken? What's it up time?

Shit.
Let's ask this to myself.

Is the 3 in 1 working?

Both of us volunteer to fix things in the space. I understand the sentiment of people "don't be a dick" and "try to fix things".

We are already doing that! A lot of talented, great, excellent people are doing a whole load of that! When I go in, I tidy up, I fix machines, I put tools back, I don't leave a mess. And I know you do too.

Its not enough though, man! Its not enough! The whole volunteer thing needs a boost. How often do people ask on the list about the state of the laser cutter. Then we tell them, what, that it's a privilege and bla bla bla if they actually *need* to do anything they should really go elsewhere this whole system is based on favours and how dare they expect any quality of service. They should be glad they're getting in in the first place. They should feel privileged just to be paying for the hackspace to exist.

They're paying members. Whether you realise it or not we are providing a service (the facilities, a place to make things). My friend gave up on the hackspace because every single time, over a period of a year, when he finally needed it the lasercutter was down. I ragequit and bought my own lasercutter! I can't even imagine coming in to do any other job on the 3 in 1 other than rebuilding it, I certainly can't expect it to be working, even if I just maintained it.

Its high time we start to understand core and non-core machinery and tools. They make the shakes! They bring the boys to the yard! The work of members on improving the space is excellent, but like so many geek things we geeks do what interests us and no one wants to do the boilerplate junk. Or for that matter make sure that something is working in a certain period of time. And you and I are both guilty of that.

--

[Ndlovu (aka) Dean]

In answering this i would ask or suggest we think about 

What has been the Uptime, MTBF, Number of outage, etc of

The Rage Saw

The 3in1

The Laser cutter

If a resulting RCA was done what would have been the root cause ? 

when did you a member pick up a screw driver or perhaps, side cutters that was perjaps only just usable if that 

I think the need for a manager/lab guy/equipment custodian one or all these roles goes beyond just looking after the tools and that the state of leadership and governance in the space is really the root issue here 

[Tom Sands]

The rage saw was broken when someone used it incorrectly, not due to wear or lack of maintanance, it has been mentioned in another thread that this is pretty un-repairable due to the amount of damage. A Lab tech would have not fixed this problem.

[Russ Garrett]

Guys,

We have no money for this. So there's no point in discussing a lab
tech. Let's try and work on things that we can afford instead of
arguing about this, please.

Russ

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "London Hackspace" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to london-hack-sp...@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>
>

--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk

[Charles Yarnold]

On 21 May 2013 14:10, Simon Howes <simonh...@googlemail.com> wrote:

Charles

Sorry to have to do this, but

Is the laser cutter working?

How often has it been broken? What's it up time?

Its up a lot more than its down, it gets lots of good use.

Nobody talks about the tools when they are working, only complain when they are not.

A lot of the posts on this thread are more likely to dishearten those who actually give a fudge and actually do stuff rather than improve things. Thats all its done for me.

[Martin Dittus]

Just to float another idea -- a few months ago we had discussions about making things more explicitly "owned" by particular groups, who would then manage training, access control, and maintenance for their tools. (The current model is "everyone owns it", which kinda means no-one feels they own it.)

m.

[chrisbob12]

@Dr Thrax
'Once a month' would be about my theoretical time budget to come in to work on projects...

[Mark Steward]

On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 2:10 PM, Simon Howes <simonh...@googlemail.com> wrote:

They're paying members. Whether you realise it or not we are providing a service (the facilities, a place to make things). My friend gave up on the hackspace because every single time, over a period of a year, when he finally needed it the lasercutter was down. I ragequit and bought my own lasercutter! I can't even imagine coming in to do any other job on the 3 in 1 other than rebuilding it, I certainly can't expect it to be working, even if I just maintained it.

Its high time we start to understand core and non-core machinery and tools. They make the shakes! They bring the boys to the yard! The work of members on improving the space is excellent, but like so many geek things we geeks do what interests us and no one wants to do the boilerplate junk. Or for that matter make sure that something is working in a certain period of time. And you and I are both guilty of that.

I agree, and point to where the Responsibility Pattern says "when you realise that you really cannot do the job anymore, your last task is to hand it over":

  http://hackerspaces.org/wiki/The_Responsibility_Pattern

This includes "when the amount of maintenance required for use by 600 members exceeds the free time you can afford".

So let's have those "maintenance training" days we talked about, spread the load, and then let everyone know.  We don't need ACNode for this, we can just stick it on the wiki.  For example the 3-in-1 already has four maintainers, but the laser cutter only has one documented:

  http://wiki.london.hackspace.org.uk/view/Maintenance/Adopt-a-Spanner#Equipment_needing_frequent_maintenance

Mark

[Ndlovu (aka) Dean]

If people are that sensitive that they feel this is a blame game it is not (at least in my view) we are where we are its not an agrument eithe people are discussing there views - IMHO the point is to look at how to move forward

Finance # do we have transparency on a regualr basis ... and as far as a "lab guy" In the last 6 weeks I have recomended the space to 3 people who have been excited at my discription of the space but once they have had a look have gone emm not fome me it in a state, it is falling apart, and its just a facilty for a selected few to do as they please, I have been away they have been shown around by others

This makes two points to me which are 

We need to be (The Hackspace) a place for all and it needs to work 

[Simon Howes]

Sorry, my goal isn't to demotivate peeps. You're doing a good job.
I really want to see the hackspace succeed.

Given the constraints perhaps it's wiser to create a new thread to discuss Russ's tool bounty idea instead? I can't help but being of the opinion that even the smallest token amount of money could greatly aid in motivating the vast skillset we have in our members.

I don't want to see monkeys trying to fix machines they don't understand.
But could amongst the learned, not some money inspire to bring machines up again quickly when they go down? Surely say 50/100 bucks over the total cost of all the hackspace could be an incentive?

It seems like we could come up with a homegrown and cheap solution to keeping things running that leverages the volunteer system but also make sure that the less appealing, but necessary jobs get done in a timely fashion and that we can expect stuff to generally be working or at least actively be in the process of getting fixed.

--

[tom]

you mean "the bounty system" that was referenced earlier in the thread?

[Dr Thrax]

@chrisbob12

Same here (especially now we have moved :( ) i think it wouldn't be that hard to justify not tuning up when you haven't been using the tools. 

[Jim MacArthur]

I think I've figured this one out, Dean. You say the space has a "silent majority", is falling into disrepair and there are no useful tools. 

The space has moved to 447 Hackney Road. You are at the old space.

HTH

--

[Sam Kelly]

A couple of observations from this thread - I'm sorry I don't have anything concrete to suggest at this point, but these may help.

- We've clearly got past a phase transition in the membership, after the expansion.

- This needs a change in the space culture, one way or another.

- This may or may not need a change in governance.

- We don't have the funds to support either.

- "If everyone did (or gave) a little bit more" is an anti-pattern.

--
Sam Kelly, http://www.eithin.co.uk/

That's it.  We're not messing around anymore, we're buying a bigger dictionary.  -  Tibor Fischer, The Thought Gang.

[Darren McDonald]

Would like to see training days. I always clean up after myself plus as bit more when I come in, but I do zero maintaince because I honestly don't know what to do. I'm afraid I'll bust it or get someone hurt.

A lot of members come from a IT/cs/coding background, and are now applying the same mind set to making things.

Pre lhs the closest I got to anything more demanding than a screw driver was GCSE design tech, the course I dropped out. I imagine a lot of people are in the same boat as me.

Maybe not lessons on the laser cutter, but simpler tasks anyone can do to lighten the load. Some of us could use a little direction.

Darren

--

[Alison W]

At the risk of being too obvious:

. - . - .

There was an important job to be done and Everyone was sure that Someone would do it.

Anyone could have done it, but No-one did it.

Someone got angry about that because they thought that it was Everyone’s job.

Everyone thought that Anyone could do it, but No-one realised that Everyone wouldn’t do it.

It ended up that Everyone was angry with Someone because No-one did what Anyone could have done!

. - . - .

[Alison W]

On the survey idea, I'd suggest being _very_ careful with this, and if it goes ahead it should be a passive rather than active survey. Why? because (as Russ pointed out to me once on a slightly different topic) there are many members who pay regularly but don't use the facilities very often. Reminding them of that might - especially in the current economic climate - make them rethink that decision and actually *decrease* income levels, which would be a disaster.

[Darren McDonald]

So lhs is using the same 'business' model as my gym?

[Russ Garrett]

On 21 May 2013 15:22, Sam Kelly <s...@eithin.co.uk> wrote:
> - We've clearly got past a phase transition in the membership, after the
> expansion.

I disagree with this. We've had these problems for a while, I think
we've been dealing with them fairly well and we're about to step up
our game with the acnode.

Unfortunately at the moment there's at least the appearance that
everything has suddenly broken at once, hence this thread.

--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk

[David Murphy]

>

So lhs is using the same 'business' model as my gym?

Yes, yes it is but at 1/4 the price and better opening hours. 

[Aaron Sokoloski]

On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 3:23 PM, Darren McDonald <dar...@dmcdonald.net> wrote:

Would like to see training days. I always clean up after myself plus as bit more when I come in, but I do zero maintaince because I honestly don't know what to do. I'm afraid I'll bust it or get someone hurt.

Maybe not lessons on the laser cutter, but simpler tasks anyone can do to lighten the load. Some of us could use a little direction.

So, until we get a training day organized, here are my personal guidelines for doing maintenance on any given tool:

- First, do no harm.  If you reach a point where you think that by progressing you might break something, stop, and put everything back together.  Darren, you've been following this one perfectly so far :)

- Ideally, go online and do a good bit of research on the tool in question.  Try to get multiple viewpoints, because occasionally people will tell you to do something wrong.  Preferably, do this well before even coming in to the hackspace.

- Clear an area so that you have plenty of working room. Get some little plastic cups/bins to store any fasteners that you take off so they don't get lost.

- Allocate enough time to put everything back together.  It will take about twice as long as you expect.

- Look look look!  Before you take anything apart, try to get a good understanding of how the parts fit together.

- During dis-assembly, pay very close attention.  If you don't have a good memory, take notes.  If you think that you are starting to get confused, stop and try to put things back together.  If you've already forgotten how, get someone to help, and if nobody is available, package up the parts nicely, leave a note explaining the situation, and let the mailing list know.  If anyone gets angry at you for this, I will smack them.

- Go slowly!  Repairs often take time.  Always better to not repair than to break something further.  You generally shouldn't need to apply a lot of force to take anything apart.

- At some point you may find that you can't repair something, because you need to order a new part.  Just make a note of the part, or take a photo if you don't know what it's called, and then let people know what's needed.

- Always try to relax.  Don't try to fix a tool if you feel impatient.  Impatience leads to poor choices.

And of course, some machines, like the laser cutter, are delicate.  Lathes and mills are also quite delicate, although they don't look like it.  Wait until you've got maintenance training before trying to fix them.

I think we may have a hack-the-space day Saturday anyway, if all goes well (according to the other thread), so that may be a good time to get started :)

[Glen]

On Monday, 20 May 2013 12:50:39 UTC+1, Jon Russell wrote:

I know we're short of funds due to the new building but when the coffers are in the black again should we consider a part time or full time lab technician.

I've only been a member for a few months but I've noticed the list is frequently busy with broken tools, lost stuff and things left out...

I understand the space ethos relies on the efforts of everyone volunteering but

The Hackspace is like a flat share with hundreds of housemate and no vetting. It's structure isn't like a workshop, it's parallel would be something like the Haygate estate, a utopian idea made real that failed due to the spiral of bad occupants driving out the good.

I'd like to reply to the people who've been saying that the Space would be better if people gave more, shared their skill and put in their time.

First here's a little about me so you'll be less keen to think I'm talking out of my ass.

I was at the conference where the idea of Hackspaces were first talked about. I donated money to found a London Hackspace. I became a member when the Space was an freezing room above an archery range. I've donated large amounts of tools and was the second largest investor in the 3-in-1. My name appears in repair logs. I give free lectures and lessons to teach maker skills. I work at German and Dutch hacker-camps where I'm well known.

I think of my self as the poster-child hackspace user, I joined the LHS so I could stop working in banking and start an open-source hardware company and I give back to the community.

Now here's my experience of the LHS as someone who was doing all the things that people like Billy think members need to do.

*Nearly every single time I went to the Space to use tools they were broken, so this means anyone like me has absolutely no reason to be a member.

*I buy hundreds of pounds of supplies for the Space and put donation tins next to the supplies (Sugru, plastic, beer), when I say the money in the tins has vanished I get verbally attacked for reporting it.

*I use IRC a lot , LHS is the only channel where I have to put people on ignore due to their trolling and spitefulness.

*I told the IRC channel I built a tracking device for my van and was attacked and told how stupid I was.

*When the 3-in-1 lath arrived I wasn't allowed a key, despite being having paid for a large part of it, when I brought this up I was given unhelpful troll advice.

*I've seen people abused in front of their children for not knowing the Hackspace rules.

*I've been screamed at for not fixing a 3D printer properly.

*I've been phoned on a weekend by a member who demanded I fix a 3D printer now as I owed it.

*The only reason I haven't quit is I want to keep giving lessons on 3D printers every other week.

So, I have a bias that I'd like more people like me in the Space, for me this is more people that have skill they contribute and the tools to share. What I'm seeing is that skilled people are giving up on the Hackspace and dropping their membership to the minimum due to there being no working facilities and the behaviour of other members. What's I'd like to see is vetting of applicants maybe even new members needing to be recommended by an existing member, just like a flat share.

I don't know what to do with what I see as an attitude problem in the Space, even I gave up and said 'fuck you' to the Space when I broken the lock on the 3-in-1 lathe so I could use it, I did this because I had given up caring what anyone else thought, I had come to hate the LHS.

  

[Charles Yarnold]

On 21 May 2013 17:10, Glen <glen....@gmail.com> wrote:

*I buy hundreds of pounds of supplies for the Space and put donation tins next to the supplies (Sugru, plastic, beer), when I say the money in the tins has vanished I get verbally attacked for reporting it.

Beer: You were reminded on multiple occasions that beer is bought from cash in the beer donations tin, if you buy beer and expect to take the cash back you're doing it wrong.

Sugru: You failed to make it obvious it was for sale, I only noticed by chance. When you leave stuff out at the space its going to get hacked.

*I use IRC a lot , LHS is the only channel where I have to put people on ignore due to their trolling and spitefulness.

You take disagreement as trolling. I have had to put you on ignore multiple times too Glen.

 

*I told the IRC channel I built a tracking device for my van and was attacked and told how stupid I was.

If you don't want peoples opinion, don't ask?

 

*When the 3-in-1 lath arrived I wasn't allowed a key, despite being having paid for a large part of it, when I brought this up I was given unhelpful troll advice.

There were problems around getting keys, again you see everything as trolls.

 

*I've seen people abused in front of their children for not knowing the Hackspace rules.

Why haven't you told anyone about this, is this is as bad as you make out why didn't you inform the trustees?

 

*I've been screamed at for not fixing a 3D printer properly.

Again.

 

*I've been phoned on a weekend by a member who demanded I fix a 3D printer now as I owed it.

Ditto

 

*The only reason I haven't quit is I want to keep giving lessons on 3D printers every other week.

 

Thats nice of you.

I don't think you are the poster child you think you are Glen, on lasercutter use alone you have damaged a tool to get your project done rather than stop and be considerate of other users. I don't consider your non-use of the space a great loss.

[Jonty Wareing]

I had been planning to reply to this thread in the evening (and still
will), however there's FUD in Glen's email that needs calling out
immediately.

> *I buy hundreds of pounds of supplies for the Space and put donation tins
> next to the supplies (Sugru, plastic, beer), when I say the money in the
> tins has vanished I get verbally attacked for reporting it.

You have been told _repeatedly_ over the last two years that this is not
how the donations work, and to please stop doing this. The money in the
tins is used to buy more X whenever there is enough money in the tin, and
is not left behind for the anonymous benefactor who last bought whatever
it was. What you describe simply cannot work when more than one person is
buying provisions.

> *When the 3-in-1 lath arrived I wasn't allowed a key, despite being
> having paid for a large part of it, when I brought this up I was given
> unhelpful troll advice.

This was purely due to the people managing the pledge failing to get
enough keys manufactured and distributed. They had exceptional difficulty
getting a key to you as you were never in the space when they were.
Saying you were not "allowed" is absurd.

You then decided to smash the key lock off the device so you could use
it, leaving mains wires exposed and doing nothing to repair it afterward.
It is worth pointing out that under our current grievance procedure that
is grounds for an immediate ban, and for good reason.

> *I've seen people abused in front of their children for not knowing
> the Hackspace rules.

This is the first I've heard of this occurring, and reflects on the
person who was being "abusive", the person who was doing something wrong
in the first place, and you for not saying anything about it.

Sometimes being angry at someone is justified, and without context this
is impossible to judge. Every time you complain about the space without
actually telling anyone when things occur, you are making it worse.

> *I've been screamed at for not fixing a 3D printer properly.

Again, you've not said a word to the trustees. Did the printer belong
to the space? Was it a printer you sold to another member?

> *I've been phoned on a weekend by a member who demanded I fix a 3D
> printer now as I owed it.

This was a 3D printer you had sold them from your own business and
has _absolutely nothing to do with the space_. Just because two people
who happen to be members disagree on something does not immediately
mean the space is at fault.


--jonty

[Monty]

http://i.imgur.com/VxrkuKa.jpg

[Aden]

I think this thread has been won.

http://i.imgur.com/kJWPEEL.jpg

On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 6:10 PM, Monty <mont...@gmail.com> wrote:

http://i.imgur.com/VxrkuKa.jpg

[Ndlovu (aka) Dean]

the issues raised he relate to culture and the reason we have a need (or not)  for a support structure for the space, Whilst I dont know Glen or the journey he has gone on 

I have to say that Glen has a point with a number of issues that he raises rather than picking it apart with siemantic and fancy foot work (you can tear any document apart if you want to as all of us know) one would hope that the "leadership" would look at the process  or drivers behind the issues or events,consider them and then hopefully act on them 

some interesting question could be

why did he not discuss it with the trustees (perhaps they way they operate) and (how safe people feel to comment)

why do people treat equipment the way they do (the examples set abuse and advantage ) 

the list could go on but this is not really the place 

This thread for me is done I dont want a reaction but if would be very nice if the approriate people sat back and thought about what leading an orginisation means, what a community orginisation is and all  the other questions that people I feel should be asking them selves 

[Mark Steward]

On 21 May 2013 18:39, "Ndlovu (aka) Dean" <m...@deanforbes.com> wrote:
>
> I have to say that Glen has a point with a number of issues that he raises rather than picking it apart with siemantic and fancy foot work (you can tear any document apart if you want to as all of us know) one would hope that the "leadership" would look at the process  or drivers behind the issues or events,consider them and then hopefully act on them 
>

The trustees - and I hope most members - do this. There's just no point emailing every thought we have to the list.

Mark

[Clare Greenhalgh]

I think the point that has been made is that he is criticising the things he has done himself, and regarding the various things he has bought for the space and brought back has been told repeatedly (both by trustees and members) that this is not the way things work.

I have had a number of issues raised with me as a trustee and have addressed them all. 

I do not think that either semantics or fancy footwork were used in the answers given to Glen, and it seems you are missing the point.

He has destroyed machinery and the locks it got to protect it.

He has abused the laser cutter until it was burnt out making pieces for a 3D printer.

He does not listen to the multiple warnings that he was given about buying things as "supplies" for the space.

We all need to take note of the problems there are, but it helps not to blame everyone else and take on a poster child appearance, especially if guilty!

On 21 May 2013 18:39, Ndlovu (aka) Dean <m...@deanforbes.com> wrote:

--

[Ndlovu (aka) Dean]

Noko you clearly demonstrate my point that the what is behind Glen's comment and possibily behaviour is being missed in considing this thread in you comments on my post 

Mark I have not emailed my every though merly my observations relevant to this thread, as this is not the forum for my every thought, however I would point out that I did raise general  governace directly with the all trustees some time ago in an email via the trustees group email address andrequested and it was ignored 

If either of you want to chat off line you are more than welcome to

[Alison W]

"this is not the way things work"

I'm wondering whether this is one of the roots of the issue here. It is very much now the case that there is a substantial building and contents to be looked after (and funded) and where once everyone was visible to everyone else at the same time so could see if anything was about to go wrong, now it doesn't, and maybe it isn't being made sufficiently clear to people *how* things do (have to) work at the London Hackspace. (This is generic, not about a given individual)

It doesn't need to be formal, but it does need to be very clear. Instead of being something people 'find out' over time.

Members need to know what they may and may not do (box, bring stuff in, money matters, appropriate behaviour, tool use/training/restrictions, etc)

Visitors (ie non-members) need to know that they have additional restrictions on them until they become members (possibly including supervision while using tools? being the responsibility of a given member while on site? whatever)

A piece of paper, possibly signed, dated, and recorded somewhere, showing that people have agreed to the few rules we insist upon.

Sure, this might not be the 'Hackspace ethos' (definitely isn't, I think) but, in the immortal words, "this got serious". A space without usable tools and usable equipment is exactly that - a space. But not a Hackspace.

[chrisbob12]

@AlisonW

The thing that leapt out for me is "Building & Contents". I can't imagine anyone joined LHS for the unparalleled Facilities and Maintenance opportunities (though it could be a great CV builder for someone - intern?).

Someone posted earlier that LHS was going through a phase change. Russ disagreed with this position, but I'm reading that there are problems scaling up. If this is the case, then it's not necessarily going to get any easier if we grow the membership to pay the bills. A clearer constitution might help.

Expectations is the key for me. People join LHS with whatever expectations. If you expect a social techy space, I suspect you won't be disappointed. If you'd like periodic access to a pillar drill, then disappointment may follow. Manage the expectations, and there will likely be less need for rules.

I'm not clear that 'hackers' and 'makers' are overlapping sets, and suspect that the priorities are quite different.

Regards, Chris.

[Sam Kelly]

On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 3:33 PM, Russ Garrett <ru...@garrett.co.uk> wrote:

I more meant the demographics - any organisation like this will always follow the core/penumbra/periphery setup, but I've been noticing the size of the penumbra increasing (and the periphery, obviously) without any noticeable number of people perceptibly moving into the core, even discounting the usual churn for these types of organisation.

Also, I've been noticing - especially in this thread - that everyone who's wanting to change the status quo or set up governance systems is penumbra/periphery, and I think that's diagnostic. Obviously, trustees and consistent long-term members are more knowledgeable about the current setup, but I don't think that is a useful metric when it comes to integrating newer or more infrequent members, accepting their contributions, and not biting the newbies - all of which the hackspace is having a lot of trouble with at the moment.

 

--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "London Hackspace" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to london-hack-sp...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

[chrisbob12]

@Sam Kelly

Very interested in your core/penumbra/periphery description; is there more on this?

Also, I've been noticing - especially in this thread - that everyone who's wanting to change the status quo or set up governance systems is penumbra/periphery, and I think that's diagnostic.

Spot on. That probably includes me. Actually I don't want to mess with stuff too much, joining was a bit of a punt anyway, so I'm just evaluating my position.

"I think that's diagnostic" - yes, or symptomatic. I think it's about mismatched expectations.

Regards, Chris.

[Sam Kelly]

They might just be my own terms, but I think it's a standard concept.

Core: the people who are around all the time, have an opinion on everything, and know each other (and yes, this is me avoiding the word "clique", because it's overly emotional and has far too negative associations - in the ideal Hackspace model, we'd all be core)

Penumbra: the people who drop in every so often, are recognized, have areas of specialty or ideas, but not nearly so close in - usually members for some time now

Periphery: everyone else

I think the best text for this sort of situation is Jo Freeman's Tyranny of Structurelessness - http://www.jofreeman.com/joreen/tyranny.htm TL;DR from that: structureless and non-hierarchical environments are great, but really difficult, and few organisations can manage to put in the amount of work necessary to keep them that way. No blame attaches to the hackspace for not doing so.

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "London Hackspace" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to london-hack-sp...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
 
 

[chrisbob12]

@Sam Kelly

Many thanks. A cogent and useful description.

Regards, Chris.

[David Sullivan]

On Wednesday, 22 May 2013 00:03:59 UTC+1, Sam Kelly wrote:

 

So the penalty of doing things and not treating everything like a huge intellectual exercise in doing things is taradiddle like your email? No blame, just superior intellectualism.

Sully.

[Sam Kelly]

You're entirely welcome and indeed encouraged to disagree, but can we please avoid personal insults? (Broken windows, etc.)

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "London Hackspace" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to london-hack-sp...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
 
 

[Russ Garrett]

I think this thread is done.

If anyone is interested in taking this discussion further, let's meet
at the space next Wednesday the 29th, from 8pm, in the sofa area. I
will be there, and I'm very interested in talking about the governance
of the space. I hope everyone else who is interested in this will be
there too.

Russ

Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk

[Jon Russell]

I'm sorry I mentioned it now ...

:-/

Jon.

[Jasper Wallace]

The negativity in the replies to this are depressing - Glen I'd like to
publicly thank you for the work you do with the 3d printer group (and for
printing some more coat hooks :) ). You bring useful skills and experience
to the space and keeping one of our most popular subgroups running is to
everyones benefit.

--
[http://pointless.net/] [0x2ECA0975]

[Kal]

I agree with Russ,

Structured face to face meetings need to be had, these kind of threads don't really get anywhere and the mailing list isn't the right place to solve problems like this effectively.

Too many different grievances/ideas/solutions get thrown in the mix and nothing useful really comes out, or at least gets lost in the thread.

The OP highlighted a very real problem:

Too much tool down-time/breakage, which has been corroborated by others.

I'd suggest a working group (maybe ~10-12 people) is formed/appointed to focus on clearly defining the cause of the problem,  producing workable solutions and then organising their implementation (with some authority)

There should also be a feedback phase to see what has worked and what hasn't (over say 6 months).

Kal

On Monday, 20 May 2013 12:50:39 UTC+1, Jon Russell wrote:

I know we're short of funds due to the new building but when the coffers are in the black again should we consider a part time or full time lab technician.

I've only been a member for a few months but I've noticed the list is frequently busy with broken tools, lost stuff and things left out...

I understand the space ethos relies on the efforts of everyone volunteering but

[cromiumlake]

It seems to me that we rely on the same "grumpy machinists" to fix every broken thing. 

So what about to their time in a more constructive way for the Space, for example a workshop on "Repair and Maintenance". This could attract the current members who want to help the space, plus by having the machines working we attract more members, also mentoring helps to spread knowledge.

If any of the ""grumpy machinists"" decides to come and share their experience, I'm happy to donate some time for helping the space. 

On Monday, May 20, 2013 3:20:28 PM UTC+1, Martin Dittus wrote:

One thing that's easily overlooked -- we already have quite a few "grumpy machinists" who over the years have kept things in shape. I know of at least a handful who fit that description and spent a significant amount of time on this, and I'm sure there are quite a few more. They're not always very visible, and they may only stick around for a few months before they move on to other things…

Maybe what we need is not someone who gets paid to do this, but means of making more visible who these people are, and how to reach them for advice. The former approach risks all kinds of unintended consequences (e.g. a shift in member attitudes and expectations), the latter encourages members to educate themselves, and rewards engagement.

m.



On 20 May 2013, at 14:36, Aaron Sokoloski <asoko...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, May 20, 2013 at 2:20 PM, Simon Howes <simonh...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> My opinion on this is that we've always needed a grumpy old machinist to keep things ticking over. Geeks tend to be inspired by varied and changing things - its in their nature. The monotony of endlessly fixing the same broken tools in anathema!
>
> I try to fill that role whenever I'm around, and it would be great if others could do the same.  I think that there are other ways we can work on the problem, too:
>
> - ACnode, of course
> - Copious (to the point of excessive) documentation (in situ, because people rarely think to check the wiki once in the shop)
>   - How to use/not use/maintain tools
>   - What tools to use for particular jobs/materials, and which ones shouldn't because they'll be damaged
> - General shop training events
> - Better organization of tools, so broken/missing ones get noticed earlier
> As we have expanded beyond a small size, there's less and less of people knowing each other. It only takes one derp to engage the spindle lock while cutting with the rage saw to break it. And there are more derps nao!
> As we get more members this only becomes more the case.
>
>
> Very true.  Nobody's perfect, and it only takes one derp moment to break something.
>  
> On May 20, 2013 1:06 PM, "David Murphy" <murphy...@gmail.com> wrote:
> How about similar to our occasional big space cleaning weekends we have a weekend of fixing things and cataloging anything which needs repair or replacement even down to the little things like wonky pliers and bent screwdrivers.
>
>  
> Great idea.  Perhaps during this event, people who have more experience can take a few minutes to educate noobs about how to avoid breaking things.  The more people who know how to use tools correctly, the more likely we are to catch unknowning misuse before it happens.

[Monty]

I believe this is partially covered by the upcoming http://wiki.london.hackspace.org.uk/view/Hack_the_Space_Day :)

[cromiumlake]

Well, Monty you are right with the partially

Let me rephrase:

I'm currently studying Engineering and help fixing our machines would give me some hands on practice. Perhaps I'm not fully qualified, but if you need a Lab Technician I'll do it (Induction would be nice), but stop the non sense rage (Or open a different Thread for it).

In the past I helped as much as I could when Billy and Phill were around and I had time, they are very good mentors!!

So "grumpy machinists" Lets fix it.