{xa'e} was invented to say such things as "Let's go!" but I prefer using {.e'u mi'o klama}.So may be if someone has Not-Enough-Gismu syndrome it's better to create a cmavo in UI selmaho?
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but {xa'e} is a rafsi of {xance}, how would you use it to say such things as "let's go"?
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hm, ok. then it's simply missing in the cmavo list...
Am 17.08.2012 13:47, schrieb Paul Predkiewicz:-xa'e- is the rafsi, but xa'e as a cmavo is a LAhE (even though I wish it was UI) that makes it so that the sumti it's used on is treated as if it was ko, i.e. a third-person command.
but {xa'e} is a rafsi of {xance}, how would you use it to say such things as "let's go"?
xa'e lo gerku cu cliva
"The dogs shall leave!"
"May the dogs leave!"
"I want the dogs to leave."
Whether it's very useful is another question. {.e'u} will usually be enough for cohortatives at least.
mu'o mi'e la selpa'i
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That is absolutely false. {ko} is simply the word for an imperative mood, with no other implications; it's not necessarily an order.
On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 11:32 AM, la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:
{.e'u} and {ko} largely differ in the fact that after insubmission after {ko} you might be executed by your commander whereas after {.e'u} you would probably survive. zo'o
"Go and take out the trash, will you, honey?" is an imperative. If you tell me that it's also an order, I'll concede that we have different definitions of "order".
It is {e'o/pe'u}; it's also {ko}
{ko e'o muvgau lo victerlu'i vi'opei .tit.}
{ko} represents the part of the meaning that indicates that the listener is expected to be active in making the sentence true.
"Go and take out the trash, will you, honey?" is an imperative. If you tell me that it's also an order, I'll concede that we have different definitions of "order".
It's grammatical; it means something subtly different and relies on an irrealis interpretation of attitudinals.On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 10:37 PM, la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Saturday, August 18, 2012 11:37:31 PM UTC+4, .arpis. wrote:It is {e'o/pe'u}; it's also {ko}
{ko e'o muvgau lo victerlu'i vi'opei .tit.}
{ko} represents the part of the meaning that indicates that the listener is expected to be active in making the sentence true.
{do e'o muvgau ...} - is it grammatical?On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 2:48 PM, la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Saturday, August 18, 2012 9:26:23 PM UTC+4, .arpis. wrote:"Go and take out the trash, will you, honey?" is an imperative. If you tell me that it's also an order, I'll concede that we have different definitions of "order".
It sounds like {.e'o/pe'u}On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 12:49 PM, MorphemeAddict <lyt...@gmail.com> wrote:On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 12:39 PM, .arpis. <rpglover...@gmail.com> wrote:
That is absolutely false. {ko} is simply the word for an imperative mood, with no other implications; it's not necessarily an order.
On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 1:26 PM, .arpis. <rpglover...@gmail.com> wrote:"Go and take out the trash, will you, honey?" is an imperative. If you tell me that it's also an order, I'll concede that we have different definitions of "order".Okay, I concede that your example is of a request or suggestion, rather than an order, despite its imperative.But in general, imperatives and orders overlap a lot.OTOH, I know that in Russian, sometimes--especially in the military--orders are given in the infinitive.
On Sunday, August 19, 2012 7:21:06 AM UTC+4, .arpis. wrote:It's grammatical; it means something subtly different and relies on an irrealis interpretation of attitudinals.
On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 10:37 PM, la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Saturday, August 18, 2012 11:37:31 PM UTC+4, .arpis. wrote:It is {e'o/pe'u}; it's also {ko}
{ko e'o muvgau lo victerlu'i vi'opei .tit.}
{ko} represents the part of the meaning that indicates that the listener is expected to be active in making the sentence true.
{do e'o muvgau ...} - is it grammatical?On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 2:48 PM, la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Saturday, August 18, 2012 9:26:23 PM UTC+4, .arpis. wrote:"Go and take out the trash, will you, honey?" is an imperative. If you tell me that it's also an order, I'll concede that we have different definitions of "order".
It sounds like {.e'o/pe'u}On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 12:49 PM, MorphemeAddict <lyt...@gmail.com> wrote:On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 12:39 PM, .arpis. <rpglover...@gmail.com> wrote:
That is absolutely false. {ko} is simply the word for an imperative mood, with no other implications; it's not necessarily an order.That makes sense.If {ko} is just an imperative in it's generalized meaning then {.e'o} and {COMMAND} would modify it. It has been already discussed that {ko} probably has no shade of harshness. Which leads to another question:How to say "{COMMAND/ORDER} ko klama"? Again new cmavo? Or just {le'o}?
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That makes sense.If {ko} is just an imperative in it's generalized meaning then {.e'o} and {COMMAND} would modify it. It has been already discussed that {ko} probably has no shade of harshness. Which leads to another question:How to say "{COMMAND/ORDER} ko klama"? Again new cmavo? Or just {le'o}?
One more question, whats the difference between {pe'u do}, {pe'u ko} and {ko .e'o}?
Wait a minute. arpis's example of a request using imperatives was in English. In Lojban, the imperative meaning is always and only that of giving an order/command, i.e., telling someone to do something (, which in English also carries the expectation that the command will be obeyed), or as hinted by someone, to cause the sentence to be true.
Wait a minute. arpis's example of a request using imperatives was in English. In Lojban, the imperative meaning is always and only that of giving an order/command, i.e., telling someone to do something (, which in English also carries the expectation that the command will be obeyed), or as hinted by someone, to cause the sentence to be true.
My point is that "telling someone to do something" is a much broader category of utterances than "order/command".
I just realized that it is strange that we have a special word for
the "command mode", but not for other similar things like the
"intentional mode", or the "volitional mode", etc, which are handled
with UIs, but could equally well have been something like {ko}.For example, say {xi'u} was the "intentional {mi}", then we'd have
xi'u klama lo zarci ~ ai mi klama lo zarci
just like
ko klama lo zarci ~ e'o do klama lo zarci
I don't see why the imperative is somehow more fundamental than the
intentional, volitional, and all the others.It would be interesting to make a list of the attitudinals that change
the sentence to opaque mode, like {ai} and {e'o}.This is assuming I'm right that {ai mi klama lo zarci} means
"I intend that there be a store such that I go to it" and not
"there is a store such that I intend to go to it".Jorge
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