{sei ... se'u} inside {lu ...li'u} must be a part of the quote however xorxe's Alice in Wonderland uses that to translate quotes split into several parts. I'm not the only person who thinks that this is wrong.IMO {sei} has at least three different meanings.
1. As an alternative to UI ({sei mi gleki ~= .ui})2. As an alternative to moving the outer bridi into the inner bridi ({do melbi sei mi jinvi}={mi jinvi lo du'u do melbi})3. To translate partitioned quotations.
Some time ago i proposed {xoi} to replace the second meaning of {sei}. And now here is my solution for the third meaning.Proposal.The same FA two times in a bridi should mean {je} according i.e.{fe lo barda ku mi pu viska fe lo gerku}={mi pu viska lo barda je gerku}.
Needless to say that "it's a big dog" is rather {ko'a barda je gerku} rather than {ko'a barda gerku} as natlangish tanru i.e. metaphors i.e. noun phrases with adjectives are not necessary in a logical style of lojban.
Now such proposal allows us to express divided quotationsxorxe's solution: {lu ko klama mi sei la alis cu cusku se'u i mi djica lo nu catlu do li'u} (25 syllables)gleki's solution: {lu ko klama mi li'u se cusku la alis fa lu i mi djica lo nu catlu do li'u} (26 syllables)
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{sei ... se'u} inside {lu ...li'u} must be a part of the quote however xorxe's Alice in Wonderland uses that to translate quotes split into several parts. I'm not the only person who thinks that this is wrong.IMO {sei} has at least three different meanings.
1. As an alternative to UI ({sei mi gleki ~= .ui})2. As an alternative to moving the outer bridi into the inner bridi ({do melbi sei mi jinvi}={mi jinvi lo du'u do melbi})3. To translate partitioned quotations.
Some time ago i proposed {xoi} to replace the second meaning of {sei}. And now here is my solution for the third meaning.
Proposal.The same FA two times in a bridi should mean {je} according i.e.{fe lo barda ku mi pu viska fe lo gerku}={mi pu viska lo barda je gerku}.
Needless to say that "it's a big dog" is rather {ko'a barda je gerku} rather than {ko'a barda gerku} as natlangish tanru i.e. metaphors i.e. noun phrases with adjectives are not necessary in a logical style of lojban.Now such proposal allows us to express divided quotationsxorxe's solution: {lu ko klama mi sei la alis cu cusku se'u i mi djica lo nu catlu do li'u} (25 syllables)gleki's solution: {lu ko klama mi li'u se cusku la alis fa lu i mi djica lo nu catlu do li'u} (26 syllables)
..I propose something far more vague, like {ju'e}....
On Mon, Dec 24, 2012 at 10:05 AM, Jacob Errington <nict...@gmail.com> wrote:..I propose something far more vague, like {ju'e}....
Your proposal is what it currently is. :)
On 24 December 2012 11:54, la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:{sei ... se'u} inside {lu ...li'u} must be a part of the quote however xorxe's Alice in Wonderland uses that to translate quotes split into several parts. I'm not the only person who thinks that this is wrong.IMO {sei} has at least three different meanings.
1. As an alternative to UI ({sei mi gleki ~= .ui})2. As an alternative to moving the outer bridi into the inner bridi ({do melbi sei mi jinvi}={mi jinvi lo du'u do melbi})3. To translate partitioned quotations.All of these meanings are actually the same. In every case, it's "meaning #2".{.i do melbi sei mi cusku} -> {.i mi cusku lo se du'u do melbi}{.i ui do cinba mi} -> {.i sei mi gleki do cinba mi} -> {.i mi gleki lo nu do cinba mi}Personally, I disapprove of sei-within-lu for partitioned quotes, for the simple reason that one can't unambiguously determine whether the sei-clause is actually spoken, unless {sa'a} is used (which it usually isn't).Some time ago i proposed {xoi} to replace the second meaning of {sei}. And now here is my solution for the third meaning.Replacing any meanings of sei with another word is unnecessary because {sei} only really has one meaning.
Proposal.The same FA two times in a bridi should mean {je} according i.e.{fe lo barda ku mi pu viska fe lo gerku}={mi pu viska lo barda je gerku}.
This system seems inconsistent: a sumti operation, namely the use of FA, causes a selbri effect.Needless to say that "it's a big dog" is rather {ko'a barda je gerku} rather than {ko'a barda gerku} as natlangish tanru i.e. metaphors i.e. noun phrases with adjectives are not necessary in a logical style of lojban.Now such proposal allows us to express divided quotationsxorxe's solution: {lu ko klama mi sei la alis cu cusku se'u i mi djica lo nu catlu do li'u} (25 syllables)gleki's solution: {lu ko klama mi li'u se cusku la alis fa lu i mi djica lo nu catlu do li'u} (26 syllables)As I mentioned above, where's the {je} ? What selbri is it connecting?
.i mi'e la tsani mu'o
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On Monday, December 24, 2012 9:05:53 PM UTC+4, tsani wrote:On 24 December 2012 11:54, la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:
{sei ... se'u} inside {lu ...li'u} must be a part of the quote however xorxe's Alice in Wonderland uses that to translate quotes split into several parts. I'm not the only person who thinks that this is wrong.IMO {sei} has at least three different meanings.
1. As an alternative to UI ({sei mi gleki ~= .ui})2. As an alternative to moving the outer bridi into the inner bridi ({do melbi sei mi jinvi}={mi jinvi lo du'u do melbi})3. To translate partitioned quotations.All of these meanings are actually the same. In every case, it's "meaning #2".{.i do melbi sei mi cusku} -> {.i mi cusku lo se du'u do melbi}{.i ui do cinba mi} -> {.i sei mi gleki do cinba mi} -> {.i mi gleki lo nu do cinba mi}Personally, I disapprove of sei-within-lu for partitioned quotes, for the simple reason that one can't unambiguously determine whether the sei-clause is actually spoken, unless {sa'a} is used (which it usually isn't).Some time ago i proposed {xoi} to replace the second meaning of {sei}. And now here is my solution for the third meaning.Replacing any meanings of sei with another word is unnecessary because {sei} only really has one meaning.How can you distinguish between{do cusku lu do klama mi li'u}and{do cusku lo nu do klama mi}using {sei}?
Proposal.The same FA two times in a bridi should mean {je} according i.e.{fe lo barda ku mi pu viska fe lo gerku}={mi pu viska lo barda je gerku}.
This system seems inconsistent: a sumti operation, namely the use of FA, causes a selbri effect.Needless to say that "it's a big dog" is rather {ko'a barda je gerku} rather than {ko'a barda gerku} as natlangish tanru i.e. metaphors i.e. noun phrases with adjectives are not necessary in a logical style of lojban.Now such proposal allows us to express divided quotationsxorxe's solution: {lu ko klama mi sei la alis cu cusku se'u i mi djica lo nu catlu do li'u} (25 syllables)gleki's solution: {lu ko klama mi li'u se cusku la alis fa lu i mi djica lo nu catlu do li'u} (26 syllables)As I mentioned above, where's the {je} ? What selbri is it connecting?Oh sorry. The rule is {li'u je lu} annihilates itself. The order is important.
Specifically because I am tired, I don't really care all that much, and I don't think it matters mainly due to it's lack of use, I'm not going to.
I will tell you that this has come up before, was discussed, and it was determined that "(FA) <sumti> FA <sumti>" is equivalent to "(FA) <sumti> ju'e <sumti>", and that I'm fairly certain the discussion is in the Google Group archives- although it is possible that the discussion predates the move to GG, I doubt it does. It's also more likely to be in the main group than the beginners.
Just as my-two-cents comment, I would like to say that I too dislike the use of {sei ... se'u} for split quoting. As it stands right now, there isn't really any other option, although I think I like the idea of FAlu for that purpose, as gleki spoke of earlier.
On Tuesday, December 25, 2012 5:39:20 PM UTC+4, aionys wrote:Just as my-two-cents comment, I would like to say that I too dislike the use of {sei ... se'u} for split quoting. As it stands right now, there isn't really any other option, although I think I like the idea of FAlu for that purpose, as gleki spoke of earlier.
I'll wait until tsani replies. I'm not a legislative power in Lojbanistan.
On Tue, Dec 25, 2012 at 7:01 AM, la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tuesday, December 25, 2012 5:39:20 PM UTC+4, aionys wrote:Just as my-two-cents comment, I would like to say that I too dislike the use of {sei ... se'u} for split quoting. As it stands right now, there isn't really any other option, although I think I like the idea of FAlu for that purpose, as gleki spoke of earlier.
I'll wait until tsani replies. I'm not a legislative power in Lojbanistan.
Who said anything about legislation? I was merely stating my opinion that I like the idea of using {FAlu} to split quotes over {sei...se'u}.
That said, excepting of course .camgusmis., NO individual has legislative power. The BPFK as a whole does, of course, but it's power is exercised via the votes of it's participating members- which, as far as I'm concerned, means anyone subscribed to the BPFK list.
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mu'o mi'e .aionys.
.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
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On Tue, Dec 25, 2012 at 7:36 AM, la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:On Tuesday, December 25, 2012 6:21:18 PM UTC+4, aionys wrote:On Tue, Dec 25, 2012 at 7:01 AM, la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tuesday, December 25, 2012 5:39:20 PM UTC+4, aionys wrote:Just as my-two-cents comment, I would like to say that I too dislike the use of {sei ... se'u} for split quoting. As it stands right now, there isn't really any other option, although I think I like the idea of FAlu for that purpose, as gleki spoke of earlier.
I'll wait until tsani replies. I'm not a legislative power in Lojbanistan.
Who said anything about legislation? I was merely stating my opinion that I like the idea of using {FAlu} to split quotes over {sei...se'u}.
That said, excepting of course .camgusmis., NO individual has legislative power. The BPFK as a whole does, of course, but it's power is exercised via the votes of it's participating members- which, as far as I'm concerned, means anyone subscribed to the BPFK list.
IMO off topics must be held exclusively in Lojban but ok. I disagree. I'm subscribed to the bpfk-list (and I want to be subsribed to it further) but i don't want to be it's member.The BPFK is dead and must be recreated of fluent lojbanic speakers of which i'm familiar with camgusmis, gejyspa, tsani, selpa'i, latro'a, xalbo, tengo.Others must be forbidden to cast any votes. Sorry if I forgot someone and of course i dont force anyone to be a member of BPFK. I just mean that linguists or programmers even the most prominent can't say anything worth listening to unless they know and use a language.
And yet you do it all the time. :)
On Tuesday, December 25, 2012 5:39:20 PM UTC+4, aionys wrote:Just as my-two-cents comment, I would like to say that I too dislike the use of {sei ... se'u} for split quoting. As it stands right now, there isn't really any other option, although I think I like the idea of FAlu for that purpose, as gleki spoke of earlier.
I'll wait until tsani replies. I'm not a legislative power in Lojbanistan.
On 25 December 2012 09:01, la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tuesday, December 25, 2012 5:39:20 PM UTC+4, aionys wrote:Just as my-two-cents comment, I would like to say that I too dislike the use of {sei ... se'u} for split quoting. As it stands right now, there isn't really any other option, although I think I like the idea of FAlu for that purpose, as gleki spoke of earlier.
I'll wait until tsani replies. I'm not a legislative power in Lojbanistan.Haha, I'm glad to see people actually thinking that I have some voice around here. Regardless, I don't really, given the dictatorial nature of Lojbanistan.
To return to the main question, using sei to split quotes has some inherent ambiguity; using sa'a merely diminishes it, I think. That being said, I don't like the idea of split quotes at all. they seem unlojbanic, especially considering that the resulting sentence is not a bridi. It's just a free-floating sumti between two {.i}. I don't have any objections to using FAlu, but I think that it's stylistically poor.
On Tue, Dec 25, 2012 at 10:40:33PM -0800, la gleki wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 25, 2012 10:22:54 PM UTC+4, tsani wrote:
> xorxe's solution: {lu ko klama mi sei la alis cu cusku se'u i mi djica loThe {se'u} is expendable, isn't it? So there is a difference in syllables then.
> nu catlu do li'u} (25 syllables)
> gleki's second solution: {lu ko klama mi li'u se cusku la alis fa lu mi
> djica lo nu catlu do li'u} (25 syllables, splitting sumti implies {ju'e})
>
> ?
>
> If so there are no extra syllables compared to the previous solution.
v4hn
On Tuesday, December 25, 2012 10:22:54 PM UTC+4, tsani wrote:On 25 December 2012 09:01, la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tuesday, December 25, 2012 5:39:20 PM UTC+4, aionys wrote:Just as my-two-cents comment, I would like to say that I too dislike the use of {sei ... se'u} for split quoting. As it stands right now, there isn't really any other option, although I think I like the idea of FAlu for that purpose, as gleki spoke of earlier.
I'll wait until tsani replies. I'm not a legislative power in Lojbanistan.Haha, I'm glad to see people actually thinking that I have some voice around here. Regardless, I don't really, given the dictatorial nature of Lojbanistan.It doesn't matter. Any dictator will lose their power in Lojbanistan.
It's not that "controlled development" described by camgusmis in "Lojban you are doing it wrong" essay. Fluent speakers + logical thinking decide and I will ignore any dictators unless there are many of them.
To return to the main question, using sei to split quotes has some inherent ambiguity; using sa'a merely diminishes it, I think. That being said, I don't like the idea of split quotes at all. they seem unlojbanic, especially considering that the resulting sentence is not a bridi. It's just a free-floating sumti between two {.i}. I don't have any objections to using FAlu, but I think that it's stylistically poor.Your reply appeared to be much easier than i could expect.I also think it's a poor style. Nevetheless, if we apply {ju'e} then won't it be
xorxe's solution: {lu ko klama mi sei la alis cu cusku se'u i mi djica lo nu catlu do li'u} (25 syllables)gleki's second solution: {lu ko klama mi li'u se cusku la alis fa lu mi djica lo nu catlu do li'u} (25 syllables, splitting sumti implies {ju'e})?If so there are no extra syllables compared to the previous solution.pei?
.i mi'e la tsani mu'o
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Michael Everson
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