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I don't think gender is important enough to need a word, I think that gender is too wide a concept to be only one word, and I hate fu'ivla.
That's the extent of my opinion regarding this.
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On Thursday, July 12, 2012 9:52:01 AM UTC+4, aionys wrote:I don't think gender is important enough to need a word, I think that gender is too wide a concept to be only one word, and I hate fu'ivla.
That's the extent of my opinion regarding this.It might be not relevant for you. It might be relevant for medicine and science. Although lujvo/ bridi might work as well.
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On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 12:46 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thursday, July 12, 2012 9:52:01 AM UTC+4, aionys wrote:I don't think gender is important enough to need a word, I think that gender is too wide a concept to be only one word, and I hate fu'ivla.
That's the extent of my opinion regarding this.It might be not relevant for you. It might be relevant for medicine and science. Although lujvo/ bridi might work as well.
We already have gismu * for the meanings of "gender" that are salient for medicine and science.
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The problem with that is that "gender" is a real life concept -- it
doesn't cease to exist just because you've made a word that covers a
broader topic. I don't think people would have submissiveness or
furriness built in in the same way that gender is built in into
people, so it's a strange idea for things that wouldn't be counted as
"gender" in most conversation to be treated like other genders.
Not to say that the word is a bad idea, of course, just that it's not
a good replacement for "gender".
I usually think of gender in terms of male to female and stuff in
between. You could call "raccoon" and "dominant" genders, but I doubt
that most people see gender in that way. Your word accommodates
unusual selfviews, and is pretty useful for that, but I think that
having a separate word for "gender" in terms of male/female/other
types of views would be handy, since it's a concept widely used.
On 07/12/2012 03:47 AM, Jonathan Jones wrote:
> We already have gismu or lujvo for the meanings of "gender" that are
> salient for medicine and science.What are they?
{cinse} was close to what I wanted, so I created {ceinse} as a
On 07/12/2012 06:41 AM, .arpis. wrote:
> What if we discarded the idea of a word for "gender" and coined a
> term for something that subsumes the concept. I don't particularly
> like {ceinse} for being too much like {cinse}, but that's a small
> detail.
"corrected version". (I'm assuming that redefining a standard gismu is
not going to happen.)
That's actually too *narrow* -- it doesn't allow us to talk about how we
> How about: x1 is the internal subjective identity of x2 according to
> x3
>
> Thus {tu'a lo nanmu mi ceinse} would be "I'm male-gendered" (I'm
> putting a tu'a in there because otherwise I feel like I'm saying
> something more like {da poi nanmu zo'u da mi ceinse}, which doesn't
> make sense.) and {tu'a lo tinbe mi ceinse} could be used for "I'm a
> submissive" or {tu'a lo arxokuna mi mi ceinse} for "I self-identify
> as a raccoon." (e.g. a furry).
gender inanimate objects and each other. (E.g., <http://is.gd/HXdBMy>,
<http://is.gd/aFzoSg>.)
Also, we already have {sevzi} for that.
{tu'a le ninmu cu sevzi mi} isn't bad for gender identity, though.
This overlooks one of my major gripes with {cinse}, which is that
On 07/12/2012 08:37 AM, .arpis. wrote:
> Besides, if we use such a general word, we could form a tanru/lujvo
> between {cinse} and it for the more conventional meaning of
> "gender".
officially it also includes sexual orientation.
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(Perhaps gender could be {pibykemxarlei} as "pubic stereotype"?)
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I dislike long words for important concepts. And jbepibnafei doesn't
specify chromosomes over (say) genitals; it's presumably most useful in
cases where a clean gender binary is assumed, or where edge cases should
be described in full.
Anyway, I'm certainly not going to say {jbepibnafei ke kulnu xarlei ke'e
sevzi} every time I want to talk about gender identity. If I had the
power to rewrite cinse, gender identity would be {cinse'i}.
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I dislike long words for important concepts. And jbepibnafei doesn't
specify chromosomes over (say) genitals; it's presumably most useful in
cases where a clean gender binary is assumed, or where edge cases should
be described in full.
Anyway, I'm certainly not going to say {jbepibnafei ke kulnu xarlei ke'e
sevzi} every time I want to talk about gender identity. If I had the
power to rewrite cinse, gender identity would be {cinse'i}.
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mu'o mi'e .aionys.
.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
Anyway, I'm certainly not going to say {jbepibnafei ke kulnu xarlei ke'e
sevzi} every time I want to talk about gender identity. If I had the
power to rewrite cinse, gender identity would be {cinse'i}.
>>>>> The use of "gender" in that context is different than
>>>> self-identification;
>>>>> it's targeting based on gender, and that's a tanru/lujvo.
>>>>
>>>> What would you tanru/lujvo together to convey that? sevzi is
>>>> insufficient to distinguish gender identity from other kinds of
>>>> self-identification (e.g. nationality/culture); klesi and le'e likewise.
>>>> cinse is narrower, but as I've mentioned also means sexual orientation,
>>>> and to distinguish which sense is meant we again need a word that means
>>>> gender.
>>>>
>>>> (If we had a word for sex, gender could be constructed by lujvo as "sex
>>>> stereotype". But we don't.)
>>>>
>> Anyway, I'm certainly not going to say {jbepibnafei ke kulnu xarlei ke'eDid you read the rest of what I wrote? The problem I'm trying to solve
>> sevzi} every time I want to talk about gender identity. If I had the
>> power to rewrite cinse, gender identity would be {cinse'i}.
>>
>
> Good, because you'd be wrong to do so. Gender identity != genetic sex.
is that there aren't words that are capable of specifying the concept
"gender". Since sex was one of the nearest misses, I constructed a
phrase including it.
> (Maybe {ko'a jbena zi'o zi'o zi'o fi'o plibu ko'e})I don't think {zi'o} is what you want here: you've said that ko'a is
born never, nowhere, and to no one, but nevertheless is born.
Just back from the General convention of the Episcopal Church, so I have heard "gender" up to here. From all of that, I gather that it might be more useful to search for a number of particular terms, rather than a general one like "gender". Leaving aside sex (at least two definitions, one genetic with about a half dozen slots, one plumbing with an at least two dimensional field with countless cluster points) and sexual orientation (presented as a linear array with about a half dozen cluster points, but also implicitly two such arrays, differing loosely by sex), there remain gender roles (differing from one micro society to another and covering areas from personal hygiene to crafts and beyond) gender roling (conforming to some roles -- a matter of degree as well which areas), gender identity (what you say you are -- there seem to be at least five easy categories here), gender expression (what you look to be to others -- it's not clear whether this includes pseudos or that is just a byproduct of ineptness -- at least as many categories as identity) and gender status (what you can get the government, etc., to say you are). I'm sure I missed some, but this is enough to start, not merely looking for terms to match these but also specify at least some of the cluster points in the various maps (some of these clusters are rather small but often the more interesting for al that).
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On 07/13/2012 10:49 AM, Jonathan Jones wrote:But we can have gismu (with short rafsi!) for specific cultures? Just
> I think you want to come up with a different definition. Stereotypes are
> most definitely not deserving of words.
because something's essentially imaginary doesn't mean we get to ignore it.
On 07/13/2012 04:57 PM, Jonathan Jones wrote:What's the difference between something that's imaginary and something
> Stereotypes aren't imaginary. They're derogatory, insulting, and WRONG.
that's not true?
> Except that's not the way we do things. The meaning of the English "gender"What set of words do you suggest?
> is so broad it covers /completely unrelated/ concepts.
>
> There is nothing wrong with having a word in Lojban that covers a wide
> berth- that's what the intention of the gismu is, after all.
>
> But we do /not/ have words that cover multiple concepts. That defeats the
> purpose of the language.
On 07/13/2012 04:57 PM, Jonathan Jones wrote:What's the difference between something that's imaginary and something
> Stereotypes aren't imaginary. They're derogatory, insulting, and WRONG.
that's not true?
What set of words do you suggest?
> Except that's not the way we do things. The meaning of the English "gender"
> is so broad it covers /completely unrelated/ concepts.
>
> There is nothing wrong with having a word in Lojban that covers a wide
> berth- that's what the intention of the gismu is, after all.
>
> But we do /not/ have words that cover multiple concepts. That defeats the
> purpose of the language.
On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 3:43 PM, vitci'i <celestial...@gmail.com> wrote:
On 07/13/2012 10:49 AM, Jonathan Jones wrote:But we can have gismu (with short rafsi!) for specific cultures? Just
> I think you want to come up with a different definition. Stereotypes are
> most definitely not deserving of words.
because something's essentially imaginary doesn't mean we get to ignore it.
Stereotypes aren't imaginary. They're derogatory, insulting, and WRONG.
Here's some stereotypes:
All Mexicans are thieves.
Women are weaker than men.
Blondes are stupid.
Irish people are alcoholics.
I could go on, but I think this shows my point well enough.