Re: [lojban] First doubts
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vitci'i
Sep 1, 2012, 1:50:27 PM9/1/12
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On 09/01/2012 03:56 AM, Greezael Think wrote:
> -Pronunciation. First, I'm a native Spanish speaker, so it's possible that
> I find it difficult just because its differences with Spanish. But I'm
> pretty sure differentiating "j" and "c" is difficult for everyone. I've
> tried hard, and between vowels I can use them, but for example I can't say
> "lojban" and make it sound different from an hypothetical "locban". At the
> beginning I also had problems with "y", but even if it can be difficult to
> pronounce, at least is easy to see how it's a different sound from the
> others.
Unfortunately, it's not possible to achieve perfect compatibility with
every language, though Lojban does try to minimize this sort of thing.
English speakers have similar difficulty distinguishing {k} from {x} or
{x} from {'}, and a lot of us get it wrong.
{j} is voiced, like {d}, {b}, {g}. If you draw it out you make a noise
like a motorcycle engine revving.
{c} in unvoiced, like {t}, {p}, {k}. If you draw it out you make a noise
like two sheets of paper sliding past each other.
http://soundcloud.com/caravandeadbolt/lojban-jy-cy
> -Pronunciation. First, I'm a native Spanish speaker, so it's possible that
> I find it difficult just because its differences with Spanish. But I'm
> pretty sure differentiating "j" and "c" is difficult for everyone. I've
> tried hard, and between vowels I can use them, but for example I can't say
> "lojban" and make it sound different from an hypothetical "locban". At the
> beginning I also had problems with "y", but even if it can be difficult to
> pronounce, at least is easy to see how it's a different sound from the
> others.
Unfortunately, it's not possible to achieve perfect compatibility with
every language, though Lojban does try to minimize this sort of thing.
English speakers have similar difficulty distinguishing {k} from {x} or
{x} from {'}, and a lot of us get it wrong.
{j} is voiced, like {d}, {b}, {g}. If you draw it out you make a noise
like a motorcycle engine revving.
{c} in unvoiced, like {t}, {p}, {k}. If you draw it out you make a noise
like two sheets of paper sliding past each other.
http://soundcloud.com/caravandeadbolt/lojban-jy-cy
John E Clifford
Sep 1, 2012, 2:08:56 PM9/1/12
to loj...@googlegroups.com
Taking these two versions together.
1. There are a limited number, maybe a half dozen, consonants that occur in every major language, and maybe three vowels, so, to get a usable language we have to go beyond the common store and keep as close to our source languages as we can. We still try to use aounds that are available to speakers of most of our languages, but inevitably miss in a few cases. English speakers have trouble with x and maybe j, though most speakers have the latter in the English j. Spanish speakers, depending on where they are from, may or may not have problems with s, c, j, and ' (though most have c in their ch, Lojban tc). Most languages have y in the form of unstressed a, and often other vowels as well. In any case, these can all be learned with a little practice. We hope the rewards of learning Lojban compensate for this difficulty. BTW, since Lojban is still mainly a written language, you can become quite facile with it even if your pronunciation is not perfect.
2. While each lujvo is only slightly shorter than its underlying tanru, those differences mount up quickly, so there is some economy involved. Further, the tanru is restricted to a more or less direct (if obscure) connection with its component predicates, while a lujvo has (in principle, admittedly) a precise meaning derived from that combination. The number suggestion is clever, but obviously even more impractical than the lujvo process. Again, I assure you that you will come to know many of the lujvo -- and many rafsi -- quite naturally in the course of learning Lojban. Probably before you learn all the gismu themselves. And, again, since Lojban is primarily a written language still, you do not need instant recognition to carry on a conversation.
3. There are a limited number of possible (C)(V)(')V (V) forms and a very large number of things to do with them, so sometimes systematic use of the alphabet is possible and sometimes -- when conflicting patterns interfere -- not. In the first case, people complain that the members of the series are too easily confused; in the second that they are two hard to remember. We do the best we can.
Your English is fine. Hope you will soon be doing Lojban as well.
From: Greezael Think <arrobasa...@gmail.com>
To: loj...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Saturday, September 1, 2012 3:56 AM
Subject: [lojban] First doubts
1. There are a limited number, maybe a half dozen, consonants that occur in every major language, and maybe three vowels, so, to get a usable language we have to go beyond the common store and keep as close to our source languages as we can. We still try to use aounds that are available to speakers of most of our languages, but inevitably miss in a few cases. English speakers have trouble with x and maybe j, though most speakers have the latter in the English j. Spanish speakers, depending on where they are from, may or may not have problems with s, c, j, and ' (though most have c in their ch, Lojban tc). Most languages have y in the form of unstressed a, and often other vowels as well. In any case, these can all be learned with a little practice. We hope the rewards of learning Lojban compensate for this difficulty. BTW, since Lojban is still mainly a written language, you can become quite facile with it even if your pronunciation is not perfect.
2. While each lujvo is only slightly shorter than its underlying tanru, those differences mount up quickly, so there is some economy involved. Further, the tanru is restricted to a more or less direct (if obscure) connection with its component predicates, while a lujvo has (in principle, admittedly) a precise meaning derived from that combination. The number suggestion is clever, but obviously even more impractical than the lujvo process. Again, I assure you that you will come to know many of the lujvo -- and many rafsi -- quite naturally in the course of learning Lojban. Probably before you learn all the gismu themselves. And, again, since Lojban is primarily a written language still, you do not need instant recognition to carry on a conversation.
3. There are a limited number of possible (C)(V)(')V (V) forms and a very large number of things to do with them, so sometimes systematic use of the alphabet is possible and sometimes -- when conflicting patterns interfere -- not. In the first case, people complain that the members of the series are too easily confused; in the second that they are two hard to remember. We do the best we can.
Your English is fine. Hope you will soon be doing Lojban as well.
From: Greezael Think <arrobasa...@gmail.com>
To: loj...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Saturday, September 1, 2012 3:56 AM
Subject: [lojban] First doubts
I started learning lojban about a month ago, although I knew it existed from before. For the moment, I'm very happy with it, but I've found some doubts I would like to ask:
- lujvo and rafsi. I just don't understand where is the need for these composed words. If I understood correctly, they're just tanru in an abbreviated form. They are supposed to specify the meaning of the tanru, by creating an additional definiton. But they can use any combination of possible rafsi, so you could only add one additional definition? I don't understand in which way they could be useful, they only save you a pair of letters, and for the problem of the meanings it would be far easier adding a number before the tanru, for example, and having a theoretically unlimited list of specific meanings (if they are needed). And they are really difficult to learn: even if they have defined rules, they have too much rules to think about them while speaking (in my humble opinion).
- Some cmavo don't seem too logical. When I learned ja je ji jo ju I thought that it was a great idea following the a/e/i/o/u pattern, it made everything much easier. But then I found se/te/ve/xe. I don't really understand why those words where chosen, instead of using the vowel pattern (leaving one vowel out, obviously). If it were used, it would be easier thinking which one is the pair of sumtis changed.
- lujvo and rafsi. I just don't understand where is the need for these composed words. If I understood correctly, they're just tanru in an abbreviated form. They are supposed to specify the meaning of the tanru, by creating an additional definiton. But they can use any combination of possible rafsi, so you could only add one additional definition? I don't understand in which way they could be useful, they only save you a pair of letters, and for the problem of the meanings it would be far easier adding a number before the tanru, for example, and having a theoretically unlimited list of specific meanings (if they are needed). And they are really difficult to learn: even if they have defined rules, they have too much rules to think about them while speaking (in my humble opinion).
- Some cmavo don't seem too logical. When I learned ja je ji jo ju I thought that it was a great idea following the a/e/i/o/u pattern, it made everything much easier. But then I found se/te/ve/xe. I don't really understand why those words where chosen, instead of using the vowel pattern (leaving one vowel out, obviously). If it were used, it would be easier thinking which one is the pair of sumtis changed.
-Pronunciation. First, I'm a native Spanish speaker, so it's possible that I find it difficult just because its differences with Spanish. But I'm pretty sure differentiating "j" and "c" is difficult for everyone. I've tried hard, and between vowels I can use them, but for example I can't say "lojban" and make it sound different from an hypothetical "locban". At the beginning I also had problems with "y", but even if it can be difficult to pronounce, at least is easy to see how it's a different sound from the others.
So, that's pretty much it. Thank you everybody for working hard on this great language. And sorry for my english, I hope it at leas understandable ^^U
.co'o rodo
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.co'o rodo
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Pierre Abbat
Sep 1, 2012, 2:54:19 PM9/1/12
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On Saturday, September 01, 2012 01:56:07 Greezael Think wrote:
> I started learning lojban about a month ago, although I knew it existed
> from before. For the moment, I'm very happy with it, but I've found some
> doubts I would like to ask:
>
> - lujvo and rafsi. I just don't understand where is the need for these
> composed words. If I understood correctly, they're just tanru in an
> abbreviated form. They are supposed to specify the meaning of the tanru, by
> creating an additional definiton. But they can use any combination of
> possible rafsi, so you could only add one additional definition? I don't
> understand in which way they could be useful, they only save you a pair of
> letters, and for the problem of the meanings it would be far easier adding
> a number before the tanru, for example, and having a theoretically
> unlimited list of specific meanings (if they are needed). And they are
> really difficult to learn: even if they have defined rules, they have too
> much rules to think about them while speaking (in my humble opinion).
Are you thinking that we should be able to define "citmau", "ci'ormau", and
> I started learning lojban about a month ago, although I knew it existed
> from before. For the moment, I'm very happy with it, but I've found some
> doubts I would like to ask:
>
> - lujvo and rafsi. I just don't understand where is the need for these
> composed words. If I understood correctly, they're just tanru in an
> abbreviated form. They are supposed to specify the meaning of the tanru, by
> creating an additional definiton. But they can use any combination of
> possible rafsi, so you could only add one additional definition? I don't
> understand in which way they could be useful, they only save you a pair of
> letters, and for the problem of the meanings it would be far easier adding
> a number before the tanru, for example, and having a theoretically
> unlimited list of specific meanings (if they are needed). And they are
> really difficult to learn: even if they have defined rules, they have too
> much rules to think about them while speaking (in my humble opinion).
"ci'ozma" as having different meanings? (I first wrote "ci'onmau", influenced by
"cionmau", which means "panda".)
As to rules, consider this rule: If a verb of the second or third conjugation
has a stem ending in "z" or "c" (depending on the following vowel) preceded by
a vowel, the "z" or "c" changes to "zc" in the first person singular present
indicative, and thus the present subjunctive, unless the vowel before "z"
becomes a diphthong when stressed. I have no idea where this rule came from;
it's not in Portuguese or French. Do you think about this rule, or about verbs
that don't follow it, when speaking?
> - Some cmavo don't seem too logical. When I learned ja je ji jo ju I
> thought that it was a great idea following the a/e/i/o/u pattern, it made
> everything much easier. But then I found se/te/ve/xe. I don't really
> understand why those words where chosen, instead of using the vowel pattern
> (leaving one vowel out, obviously). If it were used, it would be easier
> thinking which one is the pair of sumtis changed.
ja/je/je'i/jo/ju.
> -Pronunciation. First, I'm a native Spanish speaker, so it's possible that
> I find it difficult just because its differences with Spanish. But I'm
> pretty sure differentiating "j" and "c" is difficult for everyone. I've
> tried hard, and between vowels I can use them, but for example I can't say
> "lojban" and make it sound different from an hypothetical "locban". At the
> beginning I also had problems with "y", but even if it can be difficult to
> pronounce, at least is easy to see how it's a different sound from the
> others.
What dialect of Spanish do you speak? My mother came from El Salvador.
> So, that's pretty much it. Thank you everybody for working hard on this
> great language. And sorry for my english, I hope it at leas understandable
Pierre
--
Don't buy a French car in Holland. It may be a citroen.
la .lindar.
Sep 1, 2012, 4:08:53 PM9/1/12
to loj...@googlegroups.com
Somehow this got double-posted and I replied to the one nobody else did. Reposting as such:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLD4538848E5DBC1AA&feature=plcp
Watch the lesson videos. Pronunciation is covered. The letters were picked because they exist in a majority of languages. Everybody is going to have trouble with some of the sounds, unfortunately. Most Americans struggle with or at least have to learn how to pronouce the X, but I imagine you have no problem with it as it exists in your native language already. It's just kind of a fact of the language. Swedish doesn't have the letter Z, for example. You'll just have to learn.
Lujvo exist because they're made for creating more words. If your question is why we have them instead of just using the four-letter version, would you rather say {jongau} or {jornygasnu}? {xamgyzmadu} or {xagmau}/{xauzma}?
se/te/ve/xe has a pattern, just not the AEIOU pattern. You'll find there are three common patterns in the language.
1. AEIOU - Obviously. Vowel order.
2. STVX - Alphabetical order of consonants. U is a vowel and W isn't in Lojban.
3. IAU - You see this for here/there/yonder, like {ti}, {ta}, and {tu}.
Daniel
Sep 1, 2012, 4:47:00 PM9/1/12
to loj...@googlegroups.com
Yes, I double posted it accidentally. My computer crashed just after sending the first one and I thought it wasn't actually sent. Didn't knew there was moderation, sorry about that ^^U
Thank you very much for the responses, specially for the youtube videos (I was studying from the online complete grammar). Those are going to be really useful.
As for the lujvo, I still have doubts. But I understand better the reasons now, and they make sense. They are still going to be difficult for me :S
Finally, the pattern. I didn't realize STVX was also an ordered succession. Knowing that makes it sound so much better.
I'm in love with lojban again xDD Thank you very much!
.co'o rodo
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